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Elephants may be domesticating themselves
- londons_explore 3y agoHumans kill anything that poses a threat to humans. Plenty of wild animals have had their populations decimated by this (bears, wolves, tigers, lions, etc). And the much smaller populations that remain tend to be the less aggressive/less dangerous ones.
- stainablesteel 3y agothis is right but i think your perspective is off just a little the bears, wolves, tigers and lions you listed are things that are still alive, humans probably got along with them more over the past 10-20,000 years than they did all the things they hunted to extinction. i think its rare to find a large animal, bigger than a small dog, that doesn't look cute in some way [to humans] when its not angry. this was their defense mechanism.
- ftxbro 3y ago> "The scientists compared wild African elephants from the species Loxodonta africana with bonobos and humans on 19 social, cognitive and physical traits. The researchers found that elephants, like bonobos and humans, are not very aggressive, play a lot, have a long childhood. [...] By comparing the genome of wild African savannah elephants with those of 261 domesticated mammals such as dogs, cats and horses, the scientists identified 79 genes linked to domestication in other species that seem to have become more common in elephant generations over time." what if we've been 'domesticating' them by killing the tuskiest ones for ivory or because we don't like their musth rampages, neotenizing even the wild populations
- rirze 3y agoThese behaviors have been present in oral histories of elephants for the last two thousand years or so. As far as I know, the intense hunting for tusks responsible for the endangerment of elephant species has only been present in the last few centuries. My bet is that this self-domestication has been occurring for a long time. At most, the recent selection for killing those with aggressive behavior, large tusks, would be an additional factor in this process.
- chewbacha 3y agoRapid population bottlenecks can easily cause non-linear evolutionary change by drastically changing the histogram of phenotypes.
- nerdponx 3y agoIs it also possible that elephants have enough awareness to notice who among them is more likely to be murdered by humans, and start selecting partners differently?
- chewbacha 3y agoOf course there could be sexual selection at play! I would argue though, that form of selection will take at many generations to take hold where as genocide of a species happens in a single generation. Of course, the smaller the population, the faster sexual selection will take effect but it might be hard to disambiguate with other fitness factors. Fwiw, a very similar thing happens during selection for bacterial resistance. You eliminate all the cells susceptible leaving a population of resistant cells. This population then grows to replace the previous generation. You could analogize this with the elephants. Small tusk and docile elephants have a "resistance" to being murdered by poachers. The poachers eliminate all the others and suddenly the population seems domesticated.
- kelseyfrog 3y agoSure, but we need to keep in mind that when hearing hooves we should think horses not zebras.
- hutzlibu 3y ago"At most, the recent selection for killing those with aggressive behavior, large tusks" Are million+ years recent? Humans successfully hunt big animals since we exist and all the hunter societies that still exist, share the idea that the biggest trophies come from killing the most fearsome animals. And if an animal killed a tribe member, killing that specific animal comes with great respect for the hunter. So the organized hunting of elephants especially for their tusks might be a recent thing, but killing dangerous individuals is not.
- thatguy0900 3y agoMakes me curious what animals were like before we started killing everything that looked at us funny and eating anything that didn't immediately run away
- AdmiralAsshat 3y agoMost of our modern farm animals and even wildlife have been domesticated in some way to the point that they're not really equipped to deal with predators, so you can look to their ancestors to see how they used to function. See: the aurochs (ancestor of the modern cow) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs The boar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar The jackrabbit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare The junglefowl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl etc.
- anonymouskimmer 3y agoBe careful with these sorts of generalizations when it's to related, but not identical, species. We can see with Bonobos and Chimpanzees that even within a genus there can be big behavioral differences. For instance, your Hare link goes to Lepus. Non-domesticated European rabbits (Oryctolagus) exist. If you don't trust that there hasn't been cross-breeding with domesticated rabbits, then Caprolagus would be a better comparison. Even Sylvilagus, phylogenetically closer to Oryctolagus than Lepus, is behaviorally distinct (not existing in warrens).
- ftxbro 3y ago> Coprolagus would be a better comparison Coprolagus (the 'poop hare') is a lesser known relative of the genus Caprolagus (the 'goat hare').
- anonymouskimmer 3y agoI thought what I wrote looked wrong. Thanks. I'm correcting the initial comment.
- dncornholio 3y agoNot sure what I'm reading. Wild elephants are super unpredictable and are more times aggressive than they are not, especially when they have youngs..
- ftxbro 3y agoMaybe you can imagine it like an analogy. Imagine you saw a very big thing. Now later you see that the thing is still big, but it's a little bit less big. Someone might even say that it has become smaller. But this is a paradox because even though it is big how can you say that it is smaller, when the word 'smaller' itself contains the word 'small' which is the opposite of 'big'?
- technothrasher 3y agoI'm confused why your analogy is a paradox. "Big" and "small" are always in reference to something else. In the first instance where you are establishing that the "thing" is big, you are referencing something unstated (perhaps the size of the observer). In the second instance, you are referencing the old size of the "thing" when you are establishing that it is smaller. Because the reference has changed, there is no paradox to it being both big and smaller at the same time.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mmmBacon 3y agoI’m sure it’s true that wild elephants can be aggressive. I was surrounded by a herd of elephants in Pilansberg National Park in South Africa. We remained calm and they just walked around our vehicle. Was simultaneously terrifying and thrilling at the same time.
- p_j_w 3y agoLess aggressive doesn't mean not aggressive. It's a comparison. They're far less aggressive than most any other animal that could give you a bad day is. I'd rather run into a wild elephant than a wild wolf, lion, hippo, giraffe, etc.
- justinator 3y agoSelf-domesticating seems an interesting evolutionary track for the survival of a species. Elephants may have a bit of a hard time totally committing to it, as they're somewhat large. I have a hard time visualizing a herd wandering around a large city - although I do enjoy the clever elephants that cross streets and seemingly "thank" stopped motorists, or elephants that steal food from trucks they've stopped (obvy I can't tell intent)
- alpha_squared 3y agoIf they're domesticating themselves in some way, natural evolution can take care of the rest (e.g. smaller sizes leading to long-enough lifespans to successfully mate and raise offspring long enough to repeat the cycle).
- xwdv 3y agoIt would be a shame if mighty elephants were evolved to the size of piglets that people keep as pets.
- Someone 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeoloxodon_falconeri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeoloxodon_falconeri: “Palaeoloxodon falconeri is an extinct species of dwarf elephant from the Middle Pleistocene of Sicily and Malta. It is amongst the smallest of all dwarf elephants at only one metre in height. A member of the genus Palaeoloxodon, it derived from a population of the mainland European straight-tusked elephant (Palaeoloxodon antiquus)” Not quite piglets, but getting there.
- byby 3y agoThis is a good start up idea in biotech. And highly lucrative. Genetically engineered tea cup elephants.
- Jeff_Brown 3y agoThe definition of "domestication" in this article does not seem to have anything to do with living with humans. It says bonobos have self-domesticated. I'm honestly not sure the term is even well-defined.
- BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago[flagged]
- markhahn 3y agoprosocial evolution is a lot better term than "self-domestication". of course, it's also completely unexceptional, so perhaps not favored in the academic (publishing) ecosystem.
- stainablesteel 3y agoi wonder if this is a case of humans having domesticated them in the past (probably for war), then that population ended up going free for whatever reason, and they still have the traits because they're elephants and nothing will eat them
- BlakeSimpson 3y ago[flagged]
- ftxbro 3y ago[flagged]
- FredPret 3y agoIf all the African elephants 200 or so years ago could communicate and coordinate, they could more or less take over the world - at least Africa + Eurasia. An elephant goes where he wants and does what he wants, and only extremely thick steel or a fearless / stupid human with an elephant gun can stop it. Now imagine 100k elephants working together and humanity is armed only with muskets. I imagine primitve cannon would be effective, but in this alternate history, disciplined young elephants might charge and overcome an artillery position.
- rvba 3y agoCouldnt they also be stopped by simple ditches / dugouts - maybe guarded by some warriors with spears?
- addled 3y agoI've read that the Romans got pretty good at anti-elephant tactics. https://acoup.blog/tag/elephants/ https://acoup.blog/tag/elephants/
- dickholesalad 3y agoWe already did this. Humans hunted all the megafauna, including mammoths, to extinction.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoImagining a bunch of elephants charging a fortified position in formation, I think they'd win most battles through shock/fear factor alone. I for one don't think I'd be disciplined enough to hold my ground against charging ~~Ultralisks~~ elephants with just a musket in hand.
- FredPret 3y agoIt would only work if the elephants were completely disciplined and ignored injury, death of friends, and noise. But they could take down all but thick walls, and they can absorb a lot of bullets / almost unlimited arrows. They wouldn't have battlefield medicine (no hands) and their population does not grow very fast. Pre-gunpowder humanity would be toast.
- perlgeek 3y agoMy impression was that wolfs self-domesticated into dogs as well. The story I heard about wolf domestication was that some wolfs started living nearer to humans, cooperated during hunts, ate their scrap etc. I would consider this self-domestication. If humans had captured wolfs and selectively bred them to be less aggressive, that wouldn't be self-domestication. Or am I totally off track here?
- Zetice 3y agoYou're missing the "self" part. The fact that humans are heavily involved in how wolves became domesticated means they're not "self" domesticated, at least as defined in this specific article.
- Eumenes 3y agoinb4 USA liberates Elephants with $500 trillion aid package
- anaganisk 3y agoIs the watering hole or the elephant graveyard above oil or lithium or uranium deposits tho?
- Eumenes 3y agoThe watering hole wants to be part of NATO, but the Elephants domesticating the others, don't want that to happen (there's lithium under the graveyard) ... tl;dr - they want democracy
- tantalor 3y agoSame for cats: wildcats, such as the species Felis lybica, began exploiting new resources offered by human environments, such as a proliferation of rodents in grain stores. These cats were tolerated by people, supporting their natural evolution to deviate further from their wild counterparts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-domestication#Cats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-domestication#Cats
- bluGill 3y agoIf you read the article, this is using a different definition of domestication. Both are types of self-domestication, but they are also different. Cats domesticate to live with/near human society. Elephants are domesticating not to live with humans, but to live in a society of their own.
- tantalor 3y agoThat certainly sounds like a novel sense of the word "domesticate" that most people would not recognize. Maybe a better word would be "socialized".
- nologic01 3y agoDomestication: the process of hereditary reorganization of wild animals and plants into domestic and cultivated forms according to the interests of people [1]. Using this word in the title is clearly not reflecting the nature of what might be happening. The correct term would probably be neoteny [2] or juvenilization [1] Britannica and every other credible reference on the English language out there [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny
- felideon 3y agoInteresting concept, but the article is referring to self-domestication[1]: > Yet he and evolutionary anthropologist Brian Hare of Duke University have long held that self-domestication—a phenomenon where wild animals develop traits that are similar to domesticated animals [...]. "Elephants may be self-domesticating" would sound odd to the general reader. Indeed the paper referenced[2] is titled "Elephants as an animal model for self-domestication". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-domestication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-domestication [2] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208607120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208607120
- ComputerGuru 3y agoIt's now widely accepted that cats self-domesticated, making this claim ("Find would put pachyderms in a rare group that only includes humans and bonobos") a bit dubious. Here's one article on the matter: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/domesticated-cats-dna-genetics-pets-science https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/domestica...
- joewferrara 3y agoPretty interesting that signs of self domestication include a shrunken brain and aggressive males being eliminated from the population. I would not have thought that our brains have shrunk since we (humans) became self domesticated.
- pclmulqdq 3y agoA further data point here is that Homo Neanderthalensis had a larger brain volume than Homo Sapiens.