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> People are kinda stupid when it comes to eating meat. The current scale of meat consumption [1] is just mind boggling. Yet even this comment has to be a throw

> People are kinda stupid when it comes to eating meat. The current scale of meat consumption [1] is just mind boggling. Yet even this comment has to be a throwaway because people can't handle someone telling them they shouldn't eat meat 2x a day. I'm sensing a lack of empathy in this comment. Calling people stupid or attaching any label to them will only hinder your attempt to sway their minds. Portraying black and white thinking (splitting), when we know the world is shades of grey, also hinders your ability to change minds. It's great that you found benefits to moving to a non-meat diet. This helps others see what they could benefit from. Continue from here.

bogle 3y ago
I don't think the OP was trying to sway minds when they described meat consumption as stupid, they were simply stating the obvious.
- gropo3 3y ago
  [dead]
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  There is absolutely no call for this.
beedeebeedee 3y ago
This is the same issue as an abolitionist speaking to a slaveholder. The moral problem is so overwhelming for the abolitionist that it is exceedingly frustrating, difficult and ineffective trying to persuade the slaveholder. > I'm sensing a lack of empathy in this comment That is what is frustrating- to have to show more empathy for the feelings of the slaveholder than the slaveholder has for their slaves.
- kelipso 3y ago
  Lol, I get what you're saying but comparing meat eating to slavery makes you seem even more unreasonable.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    If — and I recognise that it is an "if" given the current lack of any sufficient testable definition of subjective consciousness awareness of self — if farm animals are self-aware, then slavery would be several steps up from their current existence. We only stopped feeding cows to other cows because of a fear humans might get prion diseases. Coming at it from the other direction, "what if humans were food?" is a horror trope, be it vampires, zombies, werewolves, or psychopath cannibals.
  - beedeebeedee 3y ago
    > comparing meat eating to slavery makes you seen even more unreasonable I think that is an attitude that our culture will be ashamed of in the near future, just like we are ashamed of slavery now. The agricultural practices are almost identical (different mammal). The major difference is that we consume the flesh of one, and the produce of another. The only reason for saying that the enslavement of other animals is ok, while the enslavement of humans is not, is if we can come up with a reason that makes us special and those other animals not. There is only shaky ground for any of those possible reasons, and believing them puts blinders on what we can know. I.e., we will not recognize things that do not fit our conceptions, which has big implications for our biological science, psychology and philosophy. The fact is that meat eating, like slavery, is not reasonable. It is just something we grew up doing (individually and as a species). Any argument advocating it is as superficial and misleading as antebellum racial theorists. That is an uncomfortable truth.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      Nonsense. Try telling the lion it is being cruel to the Antelope, or the wolf it is being cruel to the deer. All life (minus plants and Cyanobacteria) get their energy from eating other living things. That’s just the way it works.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Rape is also ubiquitous in the animal kingdom (and human history), yet we don't find that to be a convincing moral justification for raping women.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  > have to show more empathy "Empathy" is not "sympathy" ("in-" vs "with-"). You try to understand the position of the other (it's a projection), not necessarily sharing the feelings. The poster clearly expressed that "if they do not see it, insulting will probably create a counterproductive reaction of closure - it's not helping them to see it".
- peteradio 3y ago
  Its an arbitrary line, holding slaves at least follows from the golden principle. What principle says don't raise animals in poor conditions or eat them? Are you extending the golden principle to apply to all animals? Why? Do you think these principles come from anything but a higher-order self-serving? Rather naive to make up a principle for no other reason than a poorly identified (non)-symmetry. I could see applying the golden principle to a dolphin but its probably some back of the mind idea that maybe one day my grandchilds grandchilds grandchild will be half dolphin and I should hedge for that eventuality.
- AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
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goaheaddownvote 3y ago
I'm not trying to sway any minds, the majority of people aren't going to change their meat consumption habits at all and honestly I'm fine with that. I never said in my comment that everyone should be vegetarian. Being vegetarian requires a lot of thoughtfulness, especially if you're at all athletic (I train muay thai and ashtanga yoga), and most people don't have the time for it (or think they don't). People become exceedingly defensive when they're asked to confront the reality of their habits, and honestly I think it's probably too much for people to even begin to consider. I have deep empathy for that as a fellow human as I've been through it too and have experienced both sides of it multiple times (meat eating -> veg -> meat eating -> and now back to veg for good).
pasquinelli 3y ago
imagine they were talking the same way about something you're not so sensitive about, something you agree with them on.

bogle 3y ago

I don't think the OP was trying to sway minds when they described meat consumption as stupid, they were simply stating the obvious.

gropo3 3y ago
[dead]
bluefirebrand 3y ago
There is absolutely no call for this.

beedeebeedee 3y ago

This is the same issue as an abolitionist speaking to a slaveholder. The moral problem is so overwhelming for the abolitionist that it is exceedingly frustrating, difficult and ineffective trying to persuade the slaveholder. > I'm sensing a lack of empathy in this comment That is what is frustrating- to have to show more empathy for the feelings of the slaveholder than the slaveholder has for their slaves.

kelipso 3y ago
Lol, I get what you're saying but comparing meat eating to slavery makes you seem even more unreasonable.
- ben_w 3y ago
  If — and I recognise that it is an "if" given the current lack of any sufficient testable definition of subjective consciousness awareness of self — if farm animals are self-aware, then slavery would be several steps up from their current existence. We only stopped feeding cows to other cows because of a fear humans might get prion diseases. Coming at it from the other direction, "what if humans were food?" is a horror trope, be it vampires, zombies, werewolves, or psychopath cannibals.
- beedeebeedee 3y ago
  > comparing meat eating to slavery makes you seen even more unreasonable I think that is an attitude that our culture will be ashamed of in the near future, just like we are ashamed of slavery now. The agricultural practices are almost identical (different mammal). The major difference is that we consume the flesh of one, and the produce of another. The only reason for saying that the enslavement of other animals is ok, while the enslavement of humans is not, is if we can come up with a reason that makes us special and those other animals not. There is only shaky ground for any of those possible reasons, and believing them puts blinders on what we can know. I.e., we will not recognize things that do not fit our conceptions, which has big implications for our biological science, psychology and philosophy. The fact is that meat eating, like slavery, is not reasonable. It is just something we grew up doing (individually and as a species). Any argument advocating it is as superficial and misleading as antebellum racial theorists. That is an uncomfortable truth.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    Nonsense. Try telling the lion it is being cruel to the Antelope, or the wolf it is being cruel to the deer. All life (minus plants and Cyanobacteria) get their energy from eating other living things. That’s just the way it works.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Rape is also ubiquitous in the animal kingdom (and human history), yet we don't find that to be a convincing moral justification for raping women.
mdp2021 3y ago
> have to show more empathy "Empathy" is not "sympathy" ("in-" vs "with-"). You try to understand the position of the other (it's a projection), not necessarily sharing the feelings. The poster clearly expressed that "if they do not see it, insulting will probably create a counterproductive reaction of closure - it's not helping them to see it".
peteradio 3y ago
Its an arbitrary line, holding slaves at least follows from the golden principle. What principle says don't raise animals in poor conditions or eat them? Are you extending the golden principle to apply to all animals? Why? Do you think these principles come from anything but a higher-order self-serving? Rather naive to make up a principle for no other reason than a poorly identified (non)-symmetry. I could see applying the golden principle to a dolphin but its probably some back of the mind idea that maybe one day my grandchilds grandchilds grandchild will be half dolphin and I should hedge for that eventuality.
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
[dead]

goaheaddownvote 3y ago

I'm not trying to sway any minds, the majority of people aren't going to change their meat consumption habits at all and honestly I'm fine with that. I never said in my comment that everyone should be vegetarian. Being vegetarian requires a lot of thoughtfulness, especially if you're at all athletic (I train muay thai and ashtanga yoga), and most people don't have the time for it (or think they don't). People become exceedingly defensive when they're asked to confront the reality of their habits, and honestly I think it's probably too much for people to even begin to consider. I have deep empathy for that as a fellow human as I've been through it too and have experienced both sides of it multiple times (meat eating -> veg -> meat eating -> and now back to veg for good).

pasquinelli 3y ago

imagine they were talking the same way about something you're not so sensitive about, something you agree with them on.