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Is there any actual strict requirement that you have to swear over a document of some kind? I'd have thought swearing over the bible is a stand-in for swearing

Is there any actual strict requirement that you have to swear over a document of some kind? I'd have thought swearing over the bible is a stand-in for swearing "before God", and that God would ultimately be your reckoner should you break your oath. If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless it's something meaningful like the constitution of your country, as another poster has used as an example, or some other relevant document that is there as physical representation of something abstract? If I, not being religious, were being sworn in as the head of NASA, I'd find it much more poignant to swear over the US constitution, or on nothing at all.

highwaylights 3y ago
To follow your argument here, perhaps the person in question believes the Pale Blue Dot to be more meaningful than a legal document. I certainly do - it’s a wonderful book that absolutely captures Carl Sagan’s sense of wonder for the universe, which to me seems like exactly what you should want from a NASA director. Most importantly, it also sends a strong message to the staff within NASA about how the new director views them and their work given how political appointments have become.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  But what does meaning have to do with it? Your marriage certificate and car title have meaning. But if the people being sworn in don’t view their documents as having some authority over their promise then what is the point? It’s equivalent to no document in that regard. It really doesnt make much sense unless you’re using a Bible, Quran, etc. Edit: Here is the crux: God holds you accountable, or at least is believed to do so, by nature. Is the nature of the values symbolized in Dr. Seuss or Sagans book similar? Do those promising on them expect divine justice from the principles of science or fun word play with kids?
  - yetihehe 3y ago
    People give meaning to things. Bible, Quran, etc have meaning only because people express that meaning. > But if the people being sworn in don’t view their documents as having some authority over their promise then what is the point? The point is that swearing on a "Pale blue dot" is exactly expression of submitting to authority of that book.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      People believe different things about the Bible. She me people think swearing on it is making a promise to God. Does the person swearing on Sagans book think Sagan is going to hold them accountable to a broken promise?
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        I conclude that person thinks Sagan will hold them equally as accountable as God would if they’d chosen His book.
      - prawn 3y ago
        They might be doing it intending that they will remember and endeavour to hold true to some message of the book.
      - yetihehe 3y ago
        Yes, I think it's equivalent and Sagan will held them as accountable as your chosen god. For "the person", you can just ask directly.
    - mnw21cam 3y ago
      > People give meaning to things. Bible, Quran, etc have meaning only because people express that meaning. A fairly central part of the philosophy of quite a few religions is that there is a God who is quite capable of giving meaning to things independently of humans. Not everyone views these as "that's nice" documents. I mean, there's a bit in the Bible (1 Corinthians 15) that says that if the stuff in the Bible is actually true, then it's the most important thing in the world, but if it isn't, then there really isn't any point paying any attention to it at all.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Many people view those religious texts no differently than they do a book of secular fairy tales. It’s not hard to imagine those people finding more meaning in ceremonially swearing over a Constitution, science text, or other important document.
  - pigsty 3y ago
    A person who doesn’t believe in religion being sworn in on a religious book is probably just annoyed. They’re not going to feel loyal to it. Sworn statements as a whole are just entirely symbolic and don’t really guarantee loyalty or honesty, but if someone who doesn’t believe rejects a religious text that they disbelieve and instead choose something that has meaning and value to them, it’s better in the symbolic sense. A scientist swearing in on a scientific text that’s meaningful to them and that also addresses human morality makes as much sense and symbolically reflects their devotion to their mission as a Bible to a devout Christian.
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    That's absurd. If God exists then God holds you accountable for your actions whether you swear or not, whether you use a Bible, Carl Sagan, Dr Seuss or a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated by W Richard Stevens. If God doesn't exist then it clearly doesn't matter what document you swear on at all, because the document is just a signal of values in that case. Either way you are legally bound by the oath you have made and if you broke it the authorities would be able to enforce that against you to the extent enabled by law regardless of what document you use or indeed no document at all. The document is (like the ceremony itself) just an artifact that is part of the ritual which is a public observance of a binding promise. In that context, choosing one that has personal meaning makes total sense, whether it is a religious text or something else.
    - 988747 3y ago
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- tescocles 3y ago
  I mean, yes, it is a very impactful book; I enjoyed it very much. What I'm meaning, though, is that if you were to go against your duty as the head of NASA, Carl Sagan isn't going to rise from the grave and smite you for your transgression. Whereas I believe that is exactly the point of swearing over a bible. I'm not meaning to say it's meaningless to swear over an important book (or that it doesn't make some kind of point), rather that an important element of what it means to swear over a religious text is lost. The whole point of rationalism is that the universe isn't sentient and won't and cannot judge your actions. An oath is a promise to someone that you will act for the greater good, and you do so with your hand over a representation of who will witness and judge you for that. I don't really know if I'm trying to say anything in particular. It's just some thoughts I had when reading.
  - konschubert 3y ago
    If you don't believe in God, there is no difference between the Bible and any other book. You then choose whatever you value.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      But do believe that the book you value will hold you accountable for breaking the oath? That’s the point - that a non religious oath is emptier gesture because you don’t expect the thing you’re swearing on to hold you accountable. The point is not that she shouldn’t be able to swear on Sagans book. Or that it doesn’t have meaning to her. Just that there are inherently religious roots to these oaths and when you remove them the oath makes less sense.
      - PeterisP 3y ago
        To a non-believer swearing on Sagan's book has exactly the same "accountability" as swearing on a Bible (i.e. none of these books will hold you accountable in any way whatsoever), so the non-religious oath is exactly as meaningful as swearing on a Bible; it's not an emptier gesture, it's the same.
skissane 3y ago
Traditionally there is a distinction between an oath and an affirmation Swearing an oath was a religious ritual – a solemn promise made invoking the name of the deity, with the implication that any violation of the promise would be risking divine judgement, quite apart from whatever earthly consequences might follow (e.g. criminal prosecution for perjury) Then along came the Quakers, who objected to oaths on religious grounds. Their objection was not the invocation of God as such – rather, they believed that God wanted them to tell the truth at all times, so making a special promise to God to tell the truth on a particular occasion was wrong, because it implied it was okay to not tell the truth on other occasions. This caused a lot of problems in 17th century England – Quakers would refuse to swear oaths before courts as a matter of principle, and that refusal was a crime. In response, in 1695, the English Parliament enacted the Quakers Act, which allowed Quakers to make an affirmation instead – a solemn declaration that they were telling the truth on this occasion, but without making any special promise to the deity in doing so. And while the right to make an affirmation rather than swear an oath was initially limited only to Quakers, over time it became extended to apply to anyone who had an objection to swearing an oath, for whatever reason – and that legal provision for making an affirmation instead of swearing an oath was inherited by most of the English-speaking world. But nowadays, many people appear ignorant of the oath-versus-affirmation distinction, and start talking about "non-religious oaths", which historically speaking doesn't make a lot of sense – swearing an oath was always seen as a religious act, and people who object to that religious act (whether for religious reasons or non-religious reasons) should really be making an affirmation instead – something most English-speaking legal systems let people do. I don't know if she actually did swear an oath though. Possibly, she made an affirmation rather than an oath, but the journalist is calling it an "oath" because they don't know the difference (or assume their readers don't) > If I, not being religious, were being sworn in as the head of NASA, I'd find it much more poignant to swear over the US constitution, or on nothing at all. Confusing headline, she isn't head of NASA, just one of NASA's centres. Some federal agencies have a head called "Director" (e.g. the FBI); but for NASA, the head is called the "Administrator", and "Director" is a more junior position.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  This oath vs affirmation distinction is made clear in the UK for sure. For example when I became a British citizen I was given the option of swearing allegiance to the queen or making a "solemn affirmation" of the same. The only difference being a slight difference of wording. Weirdly I still remember the wording even though it was more than 30 years ago and I only heard it once just before I said it. > I, Sean Hunter, do hereby swear by Almighty God/solemnly affirm that I wil bear faithful and true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the second, her heirs and successors according to the law.
quitit 3y ago
This article by the New Yorker gets to the meat of your question within the first few paragraphs: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-brief-history-of-oaths-and-books https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-brief-history-... Since swearing in on a document has no official requirement, the idea is to telegraph your values.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  Yes. Fun fact about swearing on things: There is a widely-held but probably untrue belief that the origin of the words "testify", "testimony" etc was that in ancient Rome you swore an oath with one hand on your testicles, I guess the implication being "If I don't tell the truth you can cut these off". Women weren't allowed to give legal testimony so the fact they wouldn't be able to do this isn't a drawback to this theory. This is probably a myth because there's no written evidence of this particular form of oath being taken in Rome and the word for "witness" is "testis". "Testicle" actually derives from the diminutive of this word (rather than the other way around).[1] The origin of this myth seems to be a biblical passage in which such an oath was taken. [1] https://worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-swe1.htm https://worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-swe1.htm
giantg2 3y ago
Another point to this is that if you're not religious you no longer have to swear. You can affirm instead.
jackmott 3y ago
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inglor_cz 3y ago
Oaths tend to be sworn to people with a deity as a guarantor and with the understanding that the invoked deity will punish you accordingly if you break your oath. Without the "deity as a guarantor" element, the oath becomes a bit weird. The substitution of, say, the US government for the deity would probably work in the narrow sense (the government will, after all, probably retribute painfully if you break your oath - at least for oaths that matter to them), but then again the religious dimension becomes awkward, because public servants are mere mortals like you. Bret Devereaux has a useful blog article on this topic: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-work/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-... As with many other rituals inherited from a distant past, there is a discrepancy between what we do and what we believe. In the times when oaths were first introduced, open atheism would be extremely rare. Nowadays, it isn't, so the original construction starts to come apart at the seams.
- azernik 3y ago
  Though there is, as I commented there, in which the "on penalty of perjury" construction very closely mirrors the original religious structure, with punishment by the state taking the place of punishment by God or the gods. Interestingly, lots of states require the "on penalty of perjury" only in cases where a religious oath is not being made.
- mindslight 3y ago
  It only "comes apart at the seams" for people that believe there is some ambient authority, which then becomes less powerful or disinterested due to not being involved with the oath. The secular view is that the person swearing is pointing to a symbol and promising to uphold the values it represents, regardless of whether that symbol represents a traditional organized religion or not.
noirscape 3y ago
The ultimate usefulness of swearing before a God (if you believe in one) isn't that relevant. The psychological reason we tend to request it is because of something far simpler: it reminds us of our convictions. There was a study about a decade ago about this by some social scientists. They made 10 people swear on the ten commandments before making a test intended to check for their honesty, they made another group of people take the same test while taking an oath on a general document stating they'd be truthful, and finally they did the same test with a control group who wasn't asked to swear on anything. All participants were checked to be atheists (so not caring much for the words of any God) beforehand as well. The outcome was that generally speaking, just being asked to swear on something tended to remind people of their own convictions, which in turn tended to result in them answering the subsequent test questions more honestly. That's all swearing over a document really does - it reminds someone of their morals (usually with the intent of guilt tripping them into not lying afterwards). I don't know about any other social reasons why we do it, but that's the psychological effect it has. (This is presumably why you can do it on any document that you have a sufficient conviction of being important to you as well.)
- rbanffy 3y ago
  When I graduated as an Engineer, I swore an oath. I still remember one value that gets tested from time to time is to remember my work is for the betterment of the human condition, not only the perfection of machines. This has guided me through some difficult choices.
  - jpm_sd 3y ago
    What school did you graduate from? This is great.
    - rbanffy 3y ago
      It's called FEI, which translates to College of Industrial Engineering. It's in Brazil, on a (mostly industrial, and uncannily rainy) city called São Bernardo do Campo.
    - 3y ago
xupybd 3y ago
As someone who does believe in God, it seems odd to get someone to swear on a book that tells you not to swear an oath at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_5#Verse_12 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_5#Verse_12
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  Matthew 5:37 records that Jesus said something similar during his 'Sermon on the Mount' (which predates the Epistle of James): "All you need to say is simply “Yes,” or “No”; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." I also read a 20th century book which made the interpretation that "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" of the Ten Commandments is an instruction not to swear oaths on the Bible, since everyone is fallible and so can't guarantee them anyway. I can't remember off-hand which book it was though.
- angelbar 3y ago
  mmm... has I remember you can... only not in vain...
shadowgovt 3y ago
I suppose this obligates Ann Druyan to hunt her down should she violate her trust.
pclmulqdq 3y ago
It doesn't have to be a document, but I think it does need to be a thing. For example, most courthouses have an eagle feather you can swear oaths on if you want (several native American tribes do this). I think you can also "affirm" instead of "swearing an oath," and that avoids any need for an object.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Why does there need to be a thing?
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    I think it's traditionally supposed to be a representation of a deity who is "backing" your oath.
throwboatyface 3y ago
You don't even have to swear at all, the Constitution allows officials to swear or affirm. This is because some religious groups at the time of the drafting of the constitution were morally opposed to swearing oaths: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law)
ren_engineer 3y ago
>If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless? the point is a childish rebellion against traditions the nation was founded on as a social signal to their in-group for validation. Might as well tip a fedora while giving the oath
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  But I find it very Protestant and American, in a way, to challenge conventional rituals done for ritual sake regardless of belief. As a protestant myself, give me an atheist pledging the oath over something they believe in (not in a religious sense here, but a personal philosophy sense) over an atheist making a mockery of religion by pledging the oath over something they don't believe in (and may detest).
- klodolph 3y ago
  Please try to keep the discussion civil. That comment is not civil. People naturally have different interpretations of the ceremony where you swear an oath. Some people believe that the ceremony is symbolic—there is no actual entity whose wrath they are invoking if they break the oath. It is natural to want to make the ceremony conform somewhat to your actual, personal beliefs, rather than participating inauthentically. That’s all that’s needed here to understand the decision.
- roywiggins 3y ago
  Thomas Jefferson literally sliced up a bible to produce a version of the Jesus narrative without all the miracles! The founders were busily questioning their own traditions at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible?wprov=sfla1 Theodore Roosevelt was sworn in without a Bible: https://guides.loc.gov/presidential-inaugurations/1897-1925#s-lg-box-wrapper-31201531 https://guides.loc.gov/presidential-inaugurations/1897-1925#...
- jackothy 3y ago
  Religion can be rebelled against for reasons that are not childish. Also, I'm sure there are even many Christians that would specifically not want you to swear on a Bible if you are not a believer, because that would be dishonest.
consp 3y ago
> If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless? Which is why it's not done in lots of places. Here it's only a sentence which is either translated "So help me God almighty" or "That I declare and promise" (pinky swear basically) The legal meaning is that you can be held accountable to the preceding promise. Apparently God is only there to help you since you are unable to do it yourself but has no game in the promise.
Tams80 3y ago
Or, you know, it's just all symbolism. The point is that what you swear is important to you and something you wouldn't want to let down. I'm not sure why you are so upset about this.

highwaylights 3y ago

To follow your argument here, perhaps the person in question believes the Pale Blue Dot to be more meaningful than a legal document. I certainly do - it’s a wonderful book that absolutely captures Carl Sagan’s sense of wonder for the universe, which to me seems like exactly what you should want from a NASA director. Most importantly, it also sends a strong message to the staff within NASA about how the new director views them and their work given how political appointments have become.

nonethewiser 3y ago
But what does meaning have to do with it? Your marriage certificate and car title have meaning. But if the people being sworn in don’t view their documents as having some authority over their promise then what is the point? It’s equivalent to no document in that regard. It really doesnt make much sense unless you’re using a Bible, Quran, etc. Edit: Here is the crux: God holds you accountable, or at least is believed to do so, by nature. Is the nature of the values symbolized in Dr. Seuss or Sagans book similar? Do those promising on them expect divine justice from the principles of science or fun word play with kids?
- yetihehe 3y ago
  People give meaning to things. Bible, Quran, etc have meaning only because people express that meaning. > But if the people being sworn in don’t view their documents as having some authority over their promise then what is the point? The point is that swearing on a "Pale blue dot" is exactly expression of submitting to authority of that book.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    People believe different things about the Bible. She me people think swearing on it is making a promise to God. Does the person swearing on Sagans book think Sagan is going to hold them accountable to a broken promise?
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I conclude that person thinks Sagan will hold them equally as accountable as God would if they’d chosen His book.
    - prawn 3y ago
      They might be doing it intending that they will remember and endeavour to hold true to some message of the book.
    - yetihehe 3y ago
      Yes, I think it's equivalent and Sagan will held them as accountable as your chosen god. For "the person", you can just ask directly.
  - mnw21cam 3y ago
    > People give meaning to things. Bible, Quran, etc have meaning only because people express that meaning. A fairly central part of the philosophy of quite a few religions is that there is a God who is quite capable of giving meaning to things independently of humans. Not everyone views these as "that's nice" documents. I mean, there's a bit in the Bible (1 Corinthians 15) that says that if the stuff in the Bible is actually true, then it's the most important thing in the world, but if it isn't, then there really isn't any point paying any attention to it at all.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Many people view those religious texts no differently than they do a book of secular fairy tales. It’s not hard to imagine those people finding more meaning in ceremonially swearing over a Constitution, science text, or other important document.
- pigsty 3y ago
  A person who doesn’t believe in religion being sworn in on a religious book is probably just annoyed. They’re not going to feel loyal to it. Sworn statements as a whole are just entirely symbolic and don’t really guarantee loyalty or honesty, but if someone who doesn’t believe rejects a religious text that they disbelieve and instead choose something that has meaning and value to them, it’s better in the symbolic sense. A scientist swearing in on a scientific text that’s meaningful to them and that also addresses human morality makes as much sense and symbolically reflects their devotion to their mission as a Bible to a devout Christian.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  That's absurd. If God exists then God holds you accountable for your actions whether you swear or not, whether you use a Bible, Carl Sagan, Dr Seuss or a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated by W Richard Stevens. If God doesn't exist then it clearly doesn't matter what document you swear on at all, because the document is just a signal of values in that case. Either way you are legally bound by the oath you have made and if you broke it the authorities would be able to enforce that against you to the extent enabled by law regardless of what document you use or indeed no document at all. The document is (like the ceremony itself) just an artifact that is part of the ritual which is a public observance of a binding promise. In that context, choosing one that has personal meaning makes total sense, whether it is a religious text or something else.
  - 988747 3y ago
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tescocles 3y ago
I mean, yes, it is a very impactful book; I enjoyed it very much. What I'm meaning, though, is that if you were to go against your duty as the head of NASA, Carl Sagan isn't going to rise from the grave and smite you for your transgression. Whereas I believe that is exactly the point of swearing over a bible. I'm not meaning to say it's meaningless to swear over an important book (or that it doesn't make some kind of point), rather that an important element of what it means to swear over a religious text is lost. The whole point of rationalism is that the universe isn't sentient and won't and cannot judge your actions. An oath is a promise to someone that you will act for the greater good, and you do so with your hand over a representation of who will witness and judge you for that. I don't really know if I'm trying to say anything in particular. It's just some thoughts I had when reading.
- konschubert 3y ago
  If you don't believe in God, there is no difference between the Bible and any other book. You then choose whatever you value.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    But do believe that the book you value will hold you accountable for breaking the oath? That’s the point - that a non religious oath is emptier gesture because you don’t expect the thing you’re swearing on to hold you accountable. The point is not that she shouldn’t be able to swear on Sagans book. Or that it doesn’t have meaning to her. Just that there are inherently religious roots to these oaths and when you remove them the oath makes less sense.
    - PeterisP 3y ago
      To a non-believer swearing on Sagan's book has exactly the same "accountability" as swearing on a Bible (i.e. none of these books will hold you accountable in any way whatsoever), so the non-religious oath is exactly as meaningful as swearing on a Bible; it's not an emptier gesture, it's the same.

skissane 3y ago

Traditionally there is a distinction between an oath and an affirmation Swearing an oath was a religious ritual – a solemn promise made invoking the name of the deity, with the implication that any violation of the promise would be risking divine judgement, quite apart from whatever earthly consequences might follow (e.g. criminal prosecution for perjury) Then along came the Quakers, who objected to oaths on religious grounds. Their objection was not the invocation of God as such – rather, they believed that God wanted them to tell the truth at all times, so making a special promise to God to tell the truth on a particular occasion was wrong, because it implied it was okay to not tell the truth on other occasions. This caused a lot of problems in 17th century England – Quakers would refuse to swear oaths before courts as a matter of principle, and that refusal was a crime. In response, in 1695, the English Parliament enacted the Quakers Act, which allowed Quakers to make an affirmation instead – a solemn declaration that they were telling the truth on this occasion, but without making any special promise to the deity in doing so. And while the right to make an affirmation rather than swear an oath was initially limited only to Quakers, over time it became extended to apply to anyone who had an objection to swearing an oath, for whatever reason – and that legal provision for making an affirmation instead of swearing an oath was inherited by most of the English-speaking world. But nowadays, many people appear ignorant of the oath-versus-affirmation distinction, and start talking about "non-religious oaths", which historically speaking doesn't make a lot of sense – swearing an oath was always seen as a religious act, and people who object to that religious act (whether for religious reasons or non-religious reasons) should really be making an affirmation instead – something most English-speaking legal systems let people do. I don't know if she actually did swear an oath though. Possibly, she made an affirmation rather than an oath, but the journalist is calling it an "oath" because they don't know the difference (or assume their readers don't) > If I, not being religious, were being sworn in as the head of NASA, I'd find it much more poignant to swear over the US constitution, or on nothing at all. Confusing headline, she isn't head of NASA, just one of NASA's centres. Some federal agencies have a head called "Director" (e.g. the FBI); but for NASA, the head is called the "Administrator", and "Director" is a more junior position.

seanhunter 3y ago
This oath vs affirmation distinction is made clear in the UK for sure. For example when I became a British citizen I was given the option of swearing allegiance to the queen or making a "solemn affirmation" of the same. The only difference being a slight difference of wording. Weirdly I still remember the wording even though it was more than 30 years ago and I only heard it once just before I said it. > I, Sean Hunter, do hereby swear by Almighty God/solemnly affirm that I wil bear faithful and true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the second, her heirs and successors according to the law.

quitit 3y ago

This article by the New Yorker gets to the meat of your question within the first few paragraphs: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-brief-history-of-oaths-and-books https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-brief-history-... Since swearing in on a document has no official requirement, the idea is to telegraph your values.

seanhunter 3y ago
Yes. Fun fact about swearing on things: There is a widely-held but probably untrue belief that the origin of the words "testify", "testimony" etc was that in ancient Rome you swore an oath with one hand on your testicles, I guess the implication being "If I don't tell the truth you can cut these off". Women weren't allowed to give legal testimony so the fact they wouldn't be able to do this isn't a drawback to this theory. This is probably a myth because there's no written evidence of this particular form of oath being taken in Rome and the word for "witness" is "testis". "Testicle" actually derives from the diminutive of this word (rather than the other way around).[1] The origin of this myth seems to be a biblical passage in which such an oath was taken. [1] https://worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-swe1.htm https://worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-swe1.htm

giantg2 3y ago

Another point to this is that if you're not religious you no longer have to swear. You can affirm instead.

jackmott 3y ago

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inglor_cz 3y ago

Oaths tend to be sworn to people with a deity as a guarantor and with the understanding that the invoked deity will punish you accordingly if you break your oath. Without the "deity as a guarantor" element, the oath becomes a bit weird. The substitution of, say, the US government for the deity would probably work in the narrow sense (the government will, after all, probably retribute painfully if you break your oath - at least for oaths that matter to them), but then again the religious dimension becomes awkward, because public servants are mere mortals like you. Bret Devereaux has a useful blog article on this topic: https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-work/ https://acoup.blog/2019/06/28/collections-oaths-how-do-they-... As with many other rituals inherited from a distant past, there is a discrepancy between what we do and what we believe. In the times when oaths were first introduced, open atheism would be extremely rare. Nowadays, it isn't, so the original construction starts to come apart at the seams.

azernik 3y ago
Though there is, as I commented there, in which the "on penalty of perjury" construction very closely mirrors the original religious structure, with punishment by the state taking the place of punishment by God or the gods. Interestingly, lots of states require the "on penalty of perjury" only in cases where a religious oath is not being made.
mindslight 3y ago
It only "comes apart at the seams" for people that believe there is some ambient authority, which then becomes less powerful or disinterested due to not being involved with the oath. The secular view is that the person swearing is pointing to a symbol and promising to uphold the values it represents, regardless of whether that symbol represents a traditional organized religion or not.

noirscape 3y ago

The ultimate usefulness of swearing before a God (if you believe in one) isn't that relevant. The psychological reason we tend to request it is because of something far simpler: it reminds us of our convictions. There was a study about a decade ago about this by some social scientists. They made 10 people swear on the ten commandments before making a test intended to check for their honesty, they made another group of people take the same test while taking an oath on a general document stating they'd be truthful, and finally they did the same test with a control group who wasn't asked to swear on anything. All participants were checked to be atheists (so not caring much for the words of any God) beforehand as well. The outcome was that generally speaking, just being asked to swear on something tended to remind people of their own convictions, which in turn tended to result in them answering the subsequent test questions more honestly. That's all swearing over a document really does - it reminds someone of their morals (usually with the intent of guilt tripping them into not lying afterwards). I don't know about any other social reasons why we do it, but that's the psychological effect it has. (This is presumably why you can do it on any document that you have a sufficient conviction of being important to you as well.)

rbanffy 3y ago
When I graduated as an Engineer, I swore an oath. I still remember one value that gets tested from time to time is to remember my work is for the betterment of the human condition, not only the perfection of machines. This has guided me through some difficult choices.
- jpm_sd 3y ago
  What school did you graduate from? This is great.
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    It's called FEI, which translates to College of Industrial Engineering. It's in Brazil, on a (mostly industrial, and uncannily rainy) city called São Bernardo do Campo.
  - 3y ago

xupybd 3y ago

As someone who does believe in God, it seems odd to get someone to swear on a book that tells you not to swear an oath at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_5#Verse_12 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_5#Verse_12

seabass-labrax 3y ago
Matthew 5:37 records that Jesus said something similar during his 'Sermon on the Mount' (which predates the Epistle of James): "All you need to say is simply “Yes,” or “No”; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." I also read a 20th century book which made the interpretation that "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" of the Ten Commandments is an instruction not to swear oaths on the Bible, since everyone is fallible and so can't guarantee them anyway. I can't remember off-hand which book it was though.
angelbar 3y ago
mmm... has I remember you can... only not in vain...

shadowgovt 3y ago

I suppose this obligates Ann Druyan to hunt her down should she violate her trust.

pclmulqdq 3y ago

It doesn't have to be a document, but I think it does need to be a thing. For example, most courthouses have an eagle feather you can swear oaths on if you want (several native American tribes do this). I think you can also "affirm" instead of "swearing an oath," and that avoids any need for an object.

JohnFen 3y ago
Why does there need to be a thing?
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  I think it's traditionally supposed to be a representation of a deity who is "backing" your oath.

throwboatyface 3y ago

You don't even have to swear at all, the Constitution allows officials to swear or affirm. This is because some religious groups at the time of the drafting of the constitution were morally opposed to swearing oaths: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law)

ren_engineer 3y ago

>If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless? the point is a childish rebellion against traditions the nation was founded on as a social signal to their in-group for validation. Might as well tip a fedora while giving the oath

Robotbeat 3y ago
But I find it very Protestant and American, in a way, to challenge conventional rituals done for ritual sake regardless of belief. As a protestant myself, give me an atheist pledging the oath over something they believe in (not in a religious sense here, but a personal philosophy sense) over an atheist making a mockery of religion by pledging the oath over something they don't believe in (and may detest).
klodolph 3y ago
Please try to keep the discussion civil. That comment is not civil. People naturally have different interpretations of the ceremony where you swear an oath. Some people believe that the ceremony is symbolic—there is no actual entity whose wrath they are invoking if they break the oath. It is natural to want to make the ceremony conform somewhat to your actual, personal beliefs, rather than participating inauthentically. That’s all that’s needed here to understand the decision.
roywiggins 3y ago
Thomas Jefferson literally sliced up a bible to produce a version of the Jesus narrative without all the miracles! The founders were busily questioning their own traditions at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible?wprov=sfla1 Theodore Roosevelt was sworn in without a Bible: https://guides.loc.gov/presidential-inaugurations/1897-1925#s-lg-box-wrapper-31201531 https://guides.loc.gov/presidential-inaugurations/1897-1925#...
jackothy 3y ago
Religion can be rebelled against for reasons that are not childish. Also, I'm sure there are even many Christians that would specifically not want you to swear on a Bible if you are not a believer, because that would be dishonest.

consp 3y ago

> If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless? Which is why it's not done in lots of places. Here it's only a sentence which is either translated "So help me God almighty" or "That I declare and promise" (pinky swear basically) The legal meaning is that you can be held accountable to the preceding promise. Apparently God is only there to help you since you are unable to do it yourself but has no game in the promise.

Tams80 3y ago

Or, you know, it's just all symbolism. The point is that what you swear is important to you and something you wouldn't want to let down. I'm not sure why you are so upset about this.