6 ms·

If you think 90k is shit, you should really consider not living in NYC, LA, of SF. 90k in most non metropolis cities is upper middle class.

by alar44 4y ago

cmeacham98 4y ago
Most people that live in a HCOL city cannot just move to a LCOL city and get paid the same - you think they've never considered that? The point of using the national average is that we can compare it to other careers. If we compare game devs to other software development positions they get paid significantly less on average. The BLS puts software engineers at an average of $109k for 2021 (couldn't find 2022 stats, not sure if they exist yet?)[1]. That means game devs make 20+% less on average compared to their non-game counterparts. 1: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/...
- lll-o-lll 4y ago
  Well what would you expect? The work is significantly simpler, and the conditions are much better. So… wait. That’s not quite right. Hmmm. Try again. What would you expect? The value to the employer is significantly lower because each developers contribution is… No wait. Tell me again how this capitalism thing works because I get confused?
  - anon7725 4y ago
    Supply impacts wages. More people want to be game devs per open position than want to be non-game devs per open position.
    - lll-o-lll 4y ago
      Right, right. So it’s just supply and demand. So here in Australia where the number of surgeon positions are constrained by a centralised body, supply outstrips demand quite a bit. Let me google the old market at work! Googling… Hmmm… Are you sure this thing is working?
      - hahaxdxd123 4y ago
        > are constrained by a centralised body > supply outstrips demand quite a bit How does that follow? It is constrained therefore supply is artifically lowered. No matter the demand, no one can supply more doctors than the body permits, therefore the price for each is quite high.
        lll-o-lll 4y ago
        Not demand for the services, that’s high. Supply of talented humans for the role is much much greater than the positions available. So based on the aforementioned logic; lots of competition for limited spots should reduce the wages paid right?
        anon7725 4y ago
        The medical licensing body is making the market in surgeons. Their interest is in keeping wages high and supply low. In fact, “making the market” is not even the right analogy - the licensing body is the sole supplier of surgeons. Nobody is making the market in game devs, so market wages prevail. Gaming happens to be the world’s most popular form of entertainment so it’s not surprising that more people want to be game devs than say write ERP software. There are also way fewer game dev jobs than there are general dev jobs. This isn’t rocket science.
        Kubuxu 4y ago
        Yes, that is why residents are paid pennies. But once you are fully qualified surgeon, your are in the artificially limited pool of people who can operate on patients. Which leads to high salaries for surgeons.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Surgeons and game devs are not comparable. There's no free market in medicine in most countries as the doctors have formed their own cartel/union which decides who gets to be let in and under which conditions and without membership to that tribe you cannot practice.
  - 8note 4y ago
    Your pay is defined by your colleagues and potential colleagues, and unrelated to the value you provide
sneak 4y ago
$90k is shit even in low cost of living cities [in the US]. A nice car and insurance is $15k/year. Groceries have doubled or tripled in cost. If you mean, like, Bangkok, then sure.
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  Median household income in the US is 70k. 90k income for an individual isn't shit for any city let alone lower cost ones.
- antasvara 4y ago
  "Shit" is an overstatement. If a nice car and insurance is 15k, rent is 1500 bucks a month (so 18k a year), and groceries are 10k a year (and that's double the average), that's a total of 43k a year. Add in health insurance for what, 5k a year (if you're making 90k, insurance shouldn't be more than 400 bucks a month)? 90k yearly is ~67k a year after federal taxes. After all of the necessary expenses, you're left with 17k left over. Student loan payments probably cut into that, but that's still a significant sum of money. This is especially true if you can cut that rent down, or don't drive a super nice car, or have a smaller insurance payment through your workplace, etc.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    That $17k surplus assumes that this person will be doing nothing remotely fun with their lives. Add even a modest amount of travel, movies, reataurants, bars, etc., and that money disappears quickly.
    - antasvara 4y ago
      I'm not saying it's exceptional pay, but if you're even considering leisure travel you're not getting "shit pay."
  - sneak 4y ago
    That's only 17k net a year left over before savings, travel, or restaurants. Going out to eat almost anywhere decent is a hundred bucks these days. $1500 a month is not a reasonable assumption for monthly housing overhead even in a low CoL location. Also mortgage interest rates are much higher now.
monocasa 4y ago
Kyoto isn't really a LCOL area either.
- flappyeagle 4y ago
  yeah but you get to live in Kyoto
  - pigsty 4y ago
    And deal with one of the most tourist-packed cities in the world with some awful commutes. Buses just aren’t worth riding when tourism is high (you’ll be waiting forever with dozens in line ahead of you and then stuck in traffic) and the train routes aren’t nearly as convenient as a lot of other Japanese cities.

If you think 90k is shit, you should really consider not living in NYC, LA, of SF. 90k in most non metropolis cities is upper middle class.

by alar44 4y ago

If you think 90k is shit, you should really consider not living in NYC, LA, of SF. 90k in most non metropolis cities is upper middle class.

cmeacham98 4y ago

Most people that live in a HCOL city cannot just move to a LCOL city and get paid the same - you think they've never considered that? The point of using the national average is that we can compare it to other careers. If we compare game devs to other software development positions they get paid significantly less on average. The BLS puts software engineers at an average of $109k for 2021 (couldn't find 2022 stats, not sure if they exist yet?)[1]. That means game devs make 20+% less on average compared to their non-game counterparts. 1: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/...

lll-o-lll 4y ago
Well what would you expect? The work is significantly simpler, and the conditions are much better. So… wait. That’s not quite right. Hmmm. Try again. What would you expect? The value to the employer is significantly lower because each developers contribution is… No wait. Tell me again how this capitalism thing works because I get confused?
- anon7725 4y ago
  Supply impacts wages. More people want to be game devs per open position than want to be non-game devs per open position.
  - lll-o-lll 4y ago
    Right, right. So it’s just supply and demand. So here in Australia where the number of surgeon positions are constrained by a centralised body, supply outstrips demand quite a bit. Let me google the old market at work! Googling… Hmmm… Are you sure this thing is working?
    - hahaxdxd123 4y ago
      > are constrained by a centralised body > supply outstrips demand quite a bit How does that follow? It is constrained therefore supply is artifically lowered. No matter the demand, no one can supply more doctors than the body permits, therefore the price for each is quite high.
      - lll-o-lll 4y ago
        Not demand for the services, that’s high. Supply of talented humans for the role is much much greater than the positions available. So based on the aforementioned logic; lots of competition for limited spots should reduce the wages paid right?
        anon7725 4y ago
        The medical licensing body is making the market in surgeons. Their interest is in keeping wages high and supply low. In fact, “making the market” is not even the right analogy - the licensing body is the sole supplier of surgeons. Nobody is making the market in game devs, so market wages prevail. Gaming happens to be the world’s most popular form of entertainment so it’s not surprising that more people want to be game devs than say write ERP software. There are also way fewer game dev jobs than there are general dev jobs. This isn’t rocket science.
        Kubuxu 4y ago
        Yes, that is why residents are paid pennies. But once you are fully qualified surgeon, your are in the artificially limited pool of people who can operate on patients. Which leads to high salaries for surgeons.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Surgeons and game devs are not comparable. There's no free market in medicine in most countries as the doctors have formed their own cartel/union which decides who gets to be let in and under which conditions and without membership to that tribe you cannot practice.
- 8note 4y ago
  Your pay is defined by your colleagues and potential colleagues, and unrelated to the value you provide

sneak 4y ago

$90k is shit even in low cost of living cities [in the US]. A nice car and insurance is $15k/year. Groceries have doubled or tripled in cost. If you mean, like, Bangkok, then sure.

throwaway6734 4y ago
Median household income in the US is 70k. 90k income for an individual isn't shit for any city let alone lower cost ones.
antasvara 4y ago
"Shit" is an overstatement. If a nice car and insurance is 15k, rent is 1500 bucks a month (so 18k a year), and groceries are 10k a year (and that's double the average), that's a total of 43k a year. Add in health insurance for what, 5k a year (if you're making 90k, insurance shouldn't be more than 400 bucks a month)? 90k yearly is ~67k a year after federal taxes. After all of the necessary expenses, you're left with 17k left over. Student loan payments probably cut into that, but that's still a significant sum of money. This is especially true if you can cut that rent down, or don't drive a super nice car, or have a smaller insurance payment through your workplace, etc.
- kelnos 4y ago
  That $17k surplus assumes that this person will be doing nothing remotely fun with their lives. Add even a modest amount of travel, movies, reataurants, bars, etc., and that money disappears quickly.
  - antasvara 4y ago
    I'm not saying it's exceptional pay, but if you're even considering leisure travel you're not getting "shit pay."
- sneak 4y ago
  That's only 17k net a year left over before savings, travel, or restaurants. Going out to eat almost anywhere decent is a hundred bucks these days. $1500 a month is not a reasonable assumption for monthly housing overhead even in a low CoL location. Also mortgage interest rates are much higher now.

monocasa 4y ago

Kyoto isn't really a LCOL area either.

flappyeagle 4y ago
yeah but you get to live in Kyoto
- pigsty 4y ago
  And deal with one of the most tourist-packed cities in the world with some awful commutes. Buses just aren’t worth riding when tourism is high (you’ll be waiting forever with dozens in line ahead of you and then stuck in traffic) and the train routes aren’t nearly as convenient as a lot of other Japanese cities.