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Half of China's millionaires want to leave country
- DamnYuppie 15y agoHmmm.....I can't disagree with the contents of the post. Yet I think it is a piece written to distract from the issues facing our own nation by doing an implicit juxtaposition between China and the U.S. I am of the opinion that we should spend less time denigrating others and more time having open and honest discussion AND reporting of the issues facing us here in the U.S. Pointing out issues and flaws in others in now way helps fix the flaws in ourselves.
- latch 15y agoCNN is just reporting on a paper published by the Hurun Research Institute and the Bank of China. That isn't "denigrating" anything, it's reporting a story, which given the source (not CNN, but Bank of China) is probably pretty factual.
- pferde 15y agoYes, because everything is about USA, and every story from abroad is just a spin piece to manipulate public opinion of its citizens. \rolls eyes\ By the way, you are free to do your own research and publish a story about number of U.S. amount of rich people wanting to emigrate.
- marquis 15y agoThis is a global site, not a U.S. forum.
- tnuc 15y agoIt doesn't always appear that way.
- simoncpu 15y agoAtlas wants to shrug.
- espeed 15y agoThis summer Forbes reported... "China Daily reported Friday that unnatural deaths have taken the lives of 72 mainland billionaires over the past eight years. (Do the math.) Which means that if you’re one of China’s 115 current billionaires, as listed on the 2011 Forbes Billionaires List, you should be more than a little nervous." (http://www.forbes.com/sites/raykwong/2011/07/25/friends-dont-let-friends-become-chinese-billionaires/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/raykwong/2011/07/25/friends-dont...). I wonder how much fear is playing into this desire for exodus.
- folkster 15y agoThis news is far from being accurate. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2806250 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2806250
- espeed 15y agoRegardless if its billionaires in yuan or dollars, if there is a sentiment in China that the wealthy are being killed, it could fuel the desire to leave.
- wisty 15y agoI'd expect a number of extremely rich Chinese oligarchs have been shot for treason, as some forms of corruption are punishable by the death penalty. There's a lot of really nasty shit that happens in China. Babies dying from additives to their milk formula, organs being stolen, farmers being driven off communes to build illegal factories, outright theft of government funds and property ... none of it is really sanctioned. When the officials who set themselves up as feudal lords get busted, they can go down hard. Even if their superiors were previously turning a blind eye, if it hits Weibo (the Chinese Twitter) then things can get ugly.
- chaostheory 15y ago> outright theft of government funds and property Yeah most of that ends up in North America. imo They tend to buy housing in cash for their children mostly in either Vancouver or the Bay Area.
- berntb 15y agoIs the real problem that lots of party functionaries without much money has power and little oversight? So they can press money out of the local rich, without repercussions? Or is political uncertainty the real problem -- the political climate next month can be halfway back to the cultural revolution? Or a third alternative? Edit: Word choice, for clarity.
- nobody3141592 15y agoWelcome to a land where the local rich can press money out of party functionaries!
- chaostheory 15y agoI'm not so sure about that. If that were true, I don't think the local rich would be so eager to join the party membership.
- nobody3141592 15y agoYou don't have to join the party here - just throw a few $1000 at a fundraising dinner to get the guy offering the biggest tax breaks elected.
- chaostheory 15y ago> just throw a few $1000 at a fundraising dinner to get the guy offering the biggest tax breaks elected. I'm confused. Are we talking about China or Taiwan?
- nobody3141592 15y agoThe USA
- itsnotvalid 15y agoNot just the millionaires but many people want to too.
- kissickas 15y agoCan someone enlighten me on how so many (or so few) people got so rich off of property?
- pemulis 15y agoAverage housing prices in China tripled from 2005 to 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_property_bubble
- reedlaw 15y agoSpeculation in a housing bubble.
- nobody3141592 15y agoNot just houses - if you somehow managed to own the 'peoples bicycle factory' on land right next to the port that is now a Foxconn factory you are likely to have done OK out of the deal.
- Shivetya 15y agoParty connections. It is how everything works in a Communist society, everything bends to the party, the people, the land, the environment. The results to each is usually the same.
- fugit 15y agoDecisions are made kinda like HN moderation: just bow to the party line.
- cobrausn 15y agoSo since you know, what is that party line? I've found that anything said in a civil manner here with a minimum of snark is usually safe regardless of the opinion expressed by the content.
- rue 15y agoFor the sake of accuracy, China's had little to do with communism for decades now.
- folkster 15y agoMoney can buy you bigger houses, fancy clothes, new cars. But it can't buy you freedom, in China. That's why the millionaires leave, to be free.
- yaix 15y agoIt can. If you have money in China, you are much more free than in the West. Because laws only apply to you to a very little extent. You killed five people while speeding drunk? One phone call and problem solved. The question is not freedom but legal security. Here in China you never know when the goverment will show up and take you money or company away from you.
- Tsagadai 15y agoChina is quite free compared to most western countries. If you have money you are pretty much free to do as you please as long as you keep your head down. There are two types of crimes in China crimes that get you put away forever or executed and crimes that you just pay the officer for. Every regulation in China is basically a tax, you pay someone and it is solved.
- derleth 15y agoThat is a kind of freedom, perhaps, but it isn't liberty. China is notoriously short on liberty.
- oblat 15y agoAmericans think that everyone whats to be American. It is all part of a narcissism that is crippling the American economy.
- oblat 15y agoAmericans think that everyone whats to be American. It is all part of a narcissism that is crippling the American economy.
- AdamFernandez 15y agoThis seems to reinforce some points made by Paul Graham in his 'How to Make Wealth' essay. Especially regarding governments not allowing individuals to accumulate wealth. http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- vph 15y agoThis is not necessarily a bad thing for China or a good thing for countries that want these millionaires. I bet after migration many of these millionaires migrate will establish companies that connect with sources inside China for outsourcing. In an economic sense, the millionaires are very much Manchurian candidates.
- acangiano 15y agoIn Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver, you see this very clearly. Many chinese people are technically in Canada, but they never really left their home country. They create a small subcity with its own economy, and huge ties to the homeland. A great deal of them never learn English because they don't have a need for it.
- nostromo 15y agoMaybe for one generation, but I have two great friends who are the children of these types, and they are as American as anyone.
- smtf 15y agoThat is an excellent point. I have many second and third generation friends who's grandparents, and even parents have only assimilated local culture when absolutely necessary. Their children however are as 'home grown' as you like, to the point where most laugh at their for-bearers (reverse?) xenophobic behavior. This is a phenomenon not exclusive to people from the far east either. The same can be said for many families I know from eastern Europe and the Middle East.
- el_presidente 15y agoAt least in Toronto this doesn't apply only to chinese people. The city is highly segregated, but people ignore it by calling it multicultural.
- keyworks 15y agoTotally agree, in some parts of Toronto, it's probably difficult to get by without knowing some Chinese (pacific mall anyone?). Even here in Waterloo, which is much smaller than Toronto, you see these kinds of "sub cities" and tight networks among the first generation Chinese.
- MengYuanLong 15y agoNote that the claimed reason is better education opportunities for their children. There is definitely a perception here in China that connections and schooling are critical for a life of success and wealth. That said, I have my doubts they would be able to directly ask, "Do you want to emigrate?". So perhaps that is why they tacked on the education bit for plausible deniability (i.e. I love my country but my child should go to Harvard).
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- oblat 15y agoRemember the way America plans to compete with China is to wait for China to fail. So there are a lot of Americans straining their eyes for a glimmer of salvation. That is the context for pretty much every American story on China you see. The reality is that Chinese rich are hedging like all the rich do. Putting 20% of your wealth in a safe investment outside your home country is not unusual. And they are gearing up to send their child overseas to the best schools they can find - just like all the other tiger economies did.
- dgallagher 15y agoOne quarter of China’s top 1000 richest people obtained their wealth from property, compared to less than 10% among the world’s 1000 richest, the report says. Are they comparing the top-1000 richest people in China to the top-1000 richest people in the world? That's not a very good comparison. It's like comparing the top-1000 students from a single college, to the top-1000 students from every college in the entire world. I'm not sure if the actual report makes this comparison too as I cannot read Chinese.
- tomkarlo 15y agoIf 1/6 of the students in the world went to that college, it wouldn't be that bad a comparison.
- jonhendry 15y agoIt makes perfect sense, as many of those who made a fortune in property probably obtained that land through party connections and/or party corruption. How else would they have obtained 'property' in China?
- fredliu 15y agoThe trend is definitely true, but it's been there since day one when there began to have "rich Chinese". This CNN post made it sounds like, suddenly the rich Chinese worry about them being killed or end up in jail, because they oppose the chinese government? This is laughable. “We see too many worried entrepreneurs nowadays who are afraid that they would end up in prison for offending Chinese officials,” You gotta be kidding me, most of the richest Chinese ARE the Chinese officials!! If they do end up in jail, it has much more to do with them accumulating their wealth illegally by abusing their power, than say, publicly posing a middle finger to Mr. Hu. This article looks like just another typical heavily biased manipulative CNN crap, which throws in some data at first to make it believable, and then hijacked the real reason behind the data, adding their own interpretation. Reading CNN's news on China is just like reading Fox's news on Obama.
- yelsgib 15y agoWhat do you recommend reading to find out more about what's really going on in China/South-East Asia?
- fredliu 15y agoI would recommend first hand observations from western expats (through their blogs probably?) that actually live in china or at least spend reasonable amount of time there. Their opinions may be biased too, but at least it can give you a bunch of mixed views that are closer to the truth. As for traditional media, the Economist does tend to be relatively neutral, and not adding too much of their own "secret ingredients". But that's just my own opinion.
- tomkarlo 15y agoOnce you're rich enough, you become concerned with protecting that wealth and your own well-being. You want transparency from your government, rule of law (in a transparent, predictable manner) and political stability. Those are not strong points in China these days.
- Volpe 15y agoPolitical stability is not a strong point in china?
- tomkarlo 15y agoOn the order of a lifetime (50-60 years)? No. Especially given that you have an incumbent political party that is (at least in name), still Communist and committed to the equitable distribution of wealth across the population. China has a lot of internal tensions, not the least of which is that as people become more affluent, they start to want greater transparency from the government, greater fairness, and more independence. All of those desires put them in conflict with the current regime. The party may be able to keep things under control, but I don't think there's any question that it's already grappling to maintain order via censorship, suppression of dissent, etc.
- Volpe 15y agoI'm not convinced it is "grappling to maintain order". It really doesn't operate that different from the U.S: - censorship (like wikileaks) - Suppression of dissent (like the 'Occupy movement' is being suppressed). Governments (regardless of ideology) try to avoid dissent, as it's damaging to those in power...
- tomkarlo 15y agoWhen was the last time you worried about going to prison before you posted a tweet?
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- quant18 15y agoThe original report is here (in Chinese): http://pic.bankofchina.com/bocappd/report/201111/P020111101574895209302.pdf http://pic.bankofchina.com/bocappd/report/201111/P0201111015... Later on I'll have a read and translate any interesting parts of it. Right now it's 4 AM here, I'm coming off a long and not-very-fun debugging session, and I'm going to sleep. There was a very similar report published about half a year ago by China Merchants Bank. HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2660178 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2660178 I blogged about that report and translated some portions of it at the time, see there for my thoughts on these things. my analysis in short: not many people taking concrete action, not many people leaving permanently. http://notlearningcantonese.posterous.com/rich-emigrants-as-shirkers-and-traitors-a-loo http://notlearningcantonese.posterous.com/rich-emigrants-as-...
- zanny 15y agoSince this is Hacker News and all, I'll pose a question: we had that news story on how few Indian hackers and tech startups there are, what about in China? Are any of these millionaires profiting off things like Baidu is with web tech working for the government?
- angkec 15y agoThis may add more insight: I'm Chinese (mainlander) myself and I'm not rich (student). All my friends are not rich either. Yet almost everyone wants to leave the country. This is probably due to high real estate prices (around 1M RMB in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai for a decent apartment that can get you a girl to marry you, yet you don't really "own" the property even if you buy it. Technically the state still owns your apartment and you were just paying for "usage fee" because that's how communism/socialism works. In comparison, newly college graduates earns around 6k RMB/mo); broken health care system (probably worse than the U.S, since most of the Chinese family are relying on their only child to provide health care money when they grow older); harsh job market (simply too many people for not so many jobs, so the wage becomes low); and plus, a dim future for all of the lower income families or family without connections. Yes you can argue that there's so many opportunities in China, but somehow we voted with our feet: everyone who has a means to leave left. Most of the famous Chinese actors are now foreign citizens or at least with a green card alike. For average families, they send their kids overseas for school. That's why you see so many Chinese students overseas, doing boring PhD degrees if they are poor or enroll as an undergrad if their family could afford. For their families, getting their kids to an overseas school is like taking the first step to a much more promising future.
- ced 15y agoIs the situation improving?
- angkec 15y agoNo. The worst thing is it's going down: living costs are getting much higher because of inflation while wages are far from catching up, real estate is still in a bubble, and it feels like the gov is getting more and more corrupted, blocking ordinary people from having a decent/good life.
- cma 15y ago>Technically the state still owns your apartment and you were just paying for "usage fee" because that's how communism/socialism works. The fee part sounds like something other than communism.
- tryitnow 15y agoHmmm, it's really too bad the US doesn't have enough sense to invite more of these people into our country.
- ImprovedSilence 15y agoThere's also the little problem of China letting them out.
- rubashov 15y agohttp://www.vdare.com/posts/chinese-immigrant-shows-gratitude-to-america http://www.vdare.com/posts/chinese-immigrant-shows-gratitude... http://www.vdare.com/posts/chinese-the-exemplary-immigrants http://www.vdare.com/posts/chinese-the-exemplary-immigrants
- Volpe 15y agoThere is too much bias from reporters these days to work out actual trend from manufactured trends with regards to china. Silly to say "half of china's millionaires want to leave" without saying how that percentage is different from "all chinese"... China long ago loosened restrictions on emigration, to allow Chinese to be educated overseas and then (hopefully) return to China, so that it could benefit. I think this increase of emigration could be a natural progression of that policy (as Chinese now have a lot more ties in other countries). The 'unaffordable housing' issue, sounds similar to Australia (Median house price is 8+X median yearly/salary), so I doubt it is a reason for leaving. People who are saying it's "too be free", are clearly just anti-P.R.C, again, by-in-large chinese are happy/apathetic about the govt in china. Those that care about politics, join the party and have just as many rights (to vote and affect change as americans have). Very difficult to work out 'truth' here...
- keyworks 15y agoJust for the record, that photo isn't really China. It's SAR Hong Kong. Different legal systems, different story.
- known 15y agoCommon man also want to leave China http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-apple-workers-forced-to-sign-no-suicide-pledge/20110504.htm http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-...
- androidstar 15y agoTHIS IS A PROBLEM