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One thing I don't quite understand is that many cars have autopilot-like software. Unlike tesla's which constantly requires putting pressure on the wheel to sho

One thing I don't quite understand is that many cars have autopilot-like software. Unlike tesla's which constantly requires putting pressure on the wheel to show you're there and paying attention, Ford's lets you drive indefinitely without any hands on the wheel. Wouldn't this same investigation be put onto other manufactures as a giant audit? Hitting emergency vehicles is obviously bad but 1) it happens in cars without autopilot and 2) if you're hitting one you're clearly no paying attention. it's not like they just appear out of no where

donw 4y ago
[flagged]
- bigbluedots 4y ago
  Seriously? If money is power, Musk _is_ the ruling class.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    Nope, look at the constant strife between him, the California government, and the federal government. The Biden administration doesn’t even acknowledge that Tesla has any significance in the electric car industry. Money is certainly helpful to get power, but it is definitely not sufficient nor completely necessary.
  - etchalon 4y ago
    "The billionaire is being oppressed!"
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  - porknubbins 4y ago
    Your premise is not necessarily always true though. There are other kinds of power such as political power that can only be partially interchanged for economic power. Its pretty clear the mainline political parties dislike Musk as he’s a wild card.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    If we are in a capitalist economy, Musk, as a member of the haut bourgeousie, is the ruling class.
    - donw 4y ago
      > If we are in a capitalist economy We aren't, and haven't been for some time.
- rossjudson 4y ago
  Who's the ruling class?
joe_the_user 4y ago
Maybe their systems are safe and Tesla's isn't? I don't know anything about other manufacturer's systems but I've seen video of Tesla's on autopilot doing unsafe things and read a lot of anecdotes of this as well. Elon Musk has made ridiculously optimistic statements about when Teslas will be self-driving and that by itself can influence people's behavior - perhaps fatally. Edit: also, Tesla removed Lidar from their system. And there have been well-publicized deaths of people using autopilot.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Tesla has not removed Lidar form their system. You are mixing things up, they removed rader. And most of cases in the report are about system with radar.
  - leesec 4y ago
    Tesla never had lidar lol
    - MBCook 4y ago
      Panic didn’t say they did.
  - Tempest1981 4y ago
    Right > rader Radar is actually short for "RAdio Detection And Ranging" And Lidar is short for "LIght Detection And Ranging"
lolinder 4y ago
What it comes down to for me is the marketing. The other manufacturers are very careful in how they market the software, Tesla is not. If you look at Mercedes, for example, their marketing page describing their driver assistance technology[0] (with a very similar feature set to Tesla's) uses the word "assist" more than 30 times and in practically every header. Few people would come away from that marketing thinking that their car is going to drive itself without them paying attention. Tesla, in contrast, advertises their "autopilot" and "full self driving" capabilities. The word "assist" is used exactly once on the Autopilot landing page[1]. The rest of the words and names are carefully chosen to convey a sense of total autonomy. [0] https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/autonomous/the-new-s-class-intelligent-drive-next-level/ https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/autonomous/the-n... [1] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
- AlphaSite 4y ago
  I find it really interesting that for Mercedes L3 self driving they are even willing to put their money where their mouth is and take liability for the car in self driving mode.
  - BrianOnHN 4y ago
    Smart. This will be the move that triggers widespread adoption. Cheaper insurance.
    - kukx 4y ago
      It makes sense as long as it is failproof. But is their tech better than Tesla's? I assume it is not and they will have to severely limit the capabilities of the system. Maybe it will work in traffic jams, simple routes.
      - nieve 4y ago
        Why are you assuming it isn't better, just Musk's relentless promotion and exaggerated claims?
dathinab 4y ago
As far as I know there had been a unusual high amount of "unusual" accidents associated with Tesla autopilots and there is not such observation for other car manufactures. This doesn't mean their system is more advanced it actually could mean their system bails earlier due to being less advanced and in turn luckily avoiding this problems. Or that they are much much less used. But then Tesla is not really known for good QA. And in the past there had been multiple unrelated tests for emergency brake systems in which Tesla cars failed really hard. Behaving worse then many much "simpler" less advanced systems. Sometimes to a point of only braking after/when hitting the pedestrian... (mechanized test dummy puppet the Tesla system by it's own feedback recognized as human). If your most advanced self driving system can't even compete with emergency brake systems by such a large margin I would not be surprising if the Teslas system has major faults tbh.
- revscat 4y ago
  Autopilot has Prevented far more accidents than it has caused.
  - tumnus 4y ago
    Any citations for this claim?
    - chromejs10 4y ago
      Yeah I've always hated that statement. How do you even measure that? I've had my Tesla sound the alarms when I'm 4 car lengths away from the car in front of me and nothing bad is happening at all. Do they count that as having prevented an accident? Do they count all those phantom breaks as preventing a crash ;＾∀;＾）
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
nrmitchi 4y ago
I don’t think anyone reads about Fords (for example) manual and thinks “oh wow, I don’t even have to have to pay attention and have my hands on the wheel!”. The fact that it’s a big enough problem for Tesla that they have to monitor it, and still have issues, points to the main difference being user expectations and marketing around these features.
- thfuran 4y ago
  It's almost as if calling it "autopilot" was wildly irresponsible.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    It's a very appropriate name for something that automates the long boring things while not eliminating a human operator for exciting transient things, just like in an airplane or on a ship. What about it was irresponsible? Sounds like a completely typical autopilot to me.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      What's irresponsible to me is how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature for the last six years[1]: > The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
      - jhgb 4y ago
        Possibly, but notice that this is not what I was responding to, which was purely the naming of the feature. So I'm not sure how this segue is relevant? Do you have anything to comment w/r to the name?
      - zaptrem 4y ago
        This is very clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities.
TrainedMonkey 4y ago
Ford's system has a lot more limitations. AFAIK, Tesla is the only company who has non-geo fenced FSD.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  You say “limitation” but I hear “safety feature”. Best to put limits on dynamic systems that aren’t well understood.
cjensen 4y ago
Ford, like GM, has a literal camera monitoring the driver's face so they can see if they are paying attention. Seeing what your face is doing is a much more reliable system of measuring attention than whether or not the driver is touching the steering wheel while reading their book.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- netsharc 4y ago
  Doesn't Tesla have that too? Not that I trust Elonbois with a camera looking into my car, but hey, maybe someone will offer to buy me a horse...
  - mceachen 4y ago
    No. See https://electrek.co/2021/01/20/tiktok-star-criminally-tesla-autopilot-posts-video-evidence/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/20/tiktok-star-criminally-tesla-... Edit: Sorry, I should have said _mostly no_. Last year they pushed an update to use the built-in cabin camera installed in 2021+ cars for "driver attentiveness." Compared to Ford and Cadillac's IR-illuminated driver attentiveness cameras pointed straight at your eyeballs and can see through sunglasses and works in the dark, the wide-angle cabin camera may not even see your face if you wear a hat, certainly _does not_ have a clear view of your pupils, and doesn't work in the dark or if you have dark glasses on. https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/tesla-releases-driver-monitoring-system-cabin-camera/ https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/tesla-releases-driver-monitor... https://electrek.co/2021/04/08/tesla-driver-monitoring-system-detect-driver-attention-real-time/ https://electrek.co/2021/04/08/tesla-driver-monitoring-syste...
    - netsharc 4y ago
      Yes. See https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-interior-cameras-driver-privacy-consumer-reports/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-interior-cameras-dr...
MBCook 4y ago
> Unlike tesla's which constantly requires putting pressure on the wheel to show you're there and paying attention, Ford's lets you drive indefinitely without any hands on the wheel That’s not Ford’s version of Autopilot, it’s one step further. It’s actually hands off (despite how many treat autopilot). Named BlueCruise. It’s comparable to GM SuperCruise. It ONLY works on specially mapped divided highways that Ford has approved. It will disengage for strong turns and anything it’s not ready for. You MUST watch the road, it keeps track with a camera on the wheel. Basically the way it treats the driver is far more conservative. Instead of telling the driver they need to pay attention, it actively monitors them. Instead of saying “you should only use it on these kind of roads“ it actively prevents you. It’s a fundamentally different approach. Ford’s ACC (not hands free, Co-Pilot 360) constantly monitors for steering wheel torque to ensure your hands are on the wheel and disengages pretty quickly if they’re hot and you ignore the warning. That said, I have it on my car. It’s freaky as hell to use, kind of scary. Maybe I would use it on long drives in the country, but I just don’t want something else that in charge in even medium traffic.
- Tempest1981 4y ago
  > Named BlueCruise Ah, thanks! I thought the dealer was saying "Blue's Clues"
- chromejs10 4y ago
  That is kind of similar to Tesla still though. At least with FSD Beta there is a camera actively monitoring you and making sure your eyes are on the road. I've also been on roads where autopilot either won't activate at all or will activate but at a reduced speed. I was hoping that once Tesla enabled that internal camera they would stop relying on weight on the steering wheel and just use eye tracking.
fdschoeneman 4y ago
I'm similarly confused. And with the shade Biden has been throwing at Tesla I'm concerned it may be politically motivated.

donw 4y ago

[flagged]

bigbluedots 4y ago
Seriously? If money is power, Musk _is_ the ruling class.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Nope, look at the constant strife between him, the California government, and the federal government. The Biden administration doesn’t even acknowledge that Tesla has any significance in the electric car industry. Money is certainly helpful to get power, but it is definitely not sufficient nor completely necessary.
- etchalon 4y ago
  "The billionaire is being oppressed!"
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
- porknubbins 4y ago
  Your premise is not necessarily always true though. There are other kinds of power such as political power that can only be partially interchanged for economic power. Its pretty clear the mainline political parties dislike Musk as he’s a wild card.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  If we are in a capitalist economy, Musk, as a member of the haut bourgeousie, is the ruling class.
  - donw 4y ago
    > If we are in a capitalist economy We aren't, and haven't been for some time.
rossjudson 4y ago
Who's the ruling class?

joe_the_user 4y ago

Maybe their systems are safe and Tesla's isn't? I don't know anything about other manufacturer's systems but I've seen video of Tesla's on autopilot doing unsafe things and read a lot of anecdotes of this as well. Elon Musk has made ridiculously optimistic statements about when Teslas will be self-driving and that by itself can influence people's behavior - perhaps fatally. Edit: also, Tesla removed Lidar from their system. And there have been well-publicized deaths of people using autopilot.

panick21_ 4y ago
Tesla has not removed Lidar form their system. You are mixing things up, they removed rader. And most of cases in the report are about system with radar.
- leesec 4y ago
  Tesla never had lidar lol
  - MBCook 4y ago
    Panic didn’t say they did.
- Tempest1981 4y ago
  Right > rader Radar is actually short for "RAdio Detection And Ranging" And Lidar is short for "LIght Detection And Ranging"

lolinder 4y ago

What it comes down to for me is the marketing. The other manufacturers are very careful in how they market the software, Tesla is not. If you look at Mercedes, for example, their marketing page describing their driver assistance technology[0] (with a very similar feature set to Tesla's) uses the word "assist" more than 30 times and in practically every header. Few people would come away from that marketing thinking that their car is going to drive itself without them paying attention. Tesla, in contrast, advertises their "autopilot" and "full self driving" capabilities. The word "assist" is used exactly once on the Autopilot landing page[1]. The rest of the words and names are carefully chosen to convey a sense of total autonomy. [0] https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/autonomous/the-new-s-class-intelligent-drive-next-level/ https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/autonomous/the-n... [1] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

AlphaSite 4y ago
I find it really interesting that for Mercedes L3 self driving they are even willing to put their money where their mouth is and take liability for the car in self driving mode.
- BrianOnHN 4y ago
  Smart. This will be the move that triggers widespread adoption. Cheaper insurance.
  - kukx 4y ago
    It makes sense as long as it is failproof. But is their tech better than Tesla's? I assume it is not and they will have to severely limit the capabilities of the system. Maybe it will work in traffic jams, simple routes.
    - nieve 4y ago
      Why are you assuming it isn't better, just Musk's relentless promotion and exaggerated claims?

dathinab 4y ago

As far as I know there had been a unusual high amount of "unusual" accidents associated with Tesla autopilots and there is not such observation for other car manufactures. This doesn't mean their system is more advanced it actually could mean their system bails earlier due to being less advanced and in turn luckily avoiding this problems. Or that they are much much less used. But then Tesla is not really known for good QA. And in the past there had been multiple unrelated tests for emergency brake systems in which Tesla cars failed really hard. Behaving worse then many much "simpler" less advanced systems. Sometimes to a point of only braking after/when hitting the pedestrian... (mechanized test dummy puppet the Tesla system by it's own feedback recognized as human). If your most advanced self driving system can't even compete with emergency brake systems by such a large margin I would not be surprising if the Teslas system has major faults tbh.

revscat 4y ago
Autopilot has Prevented far more accidents than it has caused.
- tumnus 4y ago
  Any citations for this claim?
  - chromejs10 4y ago
    Yeah I've always hated that statement. How do you even measure that? I've had my Tesla sound the alarms when I'm 4 car lengths away from the car in front of me and nothing bad is happening at all. Do they count that as having prevented an accident? Do they count all those phantom breaks as preventing a crash ;＾∀;＾）
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

nrmitchi 4y ago

I don’t think anyone reads about Fords (for example) manual and thinks “oh wow, I don’t even have to have to pay attention and have my hands on the wheel!”. The fact that it’s a big enough problem for Tesla that they have to monitor it, and still have issues, points to the main difference being user expectations and marketing around these features.

thfuran 4y ago
It's almost as if calling it "autopilot" was wildly irresponsible.
- jhgb 4y ago
  It's a very appropriate name for something that automates the long boring things while not eliminating a human operator for exciting transient things, just like in an airplane or on a ship. What about it was irresponsible? Sounds like a completely typical autopilot to me.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    What's irresponsible to me is how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature for the last six years[1]: > The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
    - jhgb 4y ago
      Possibly, but notice that this is not what I was responding to, which was purely the naming of the feature. So I'm not sure how this segue is relevant? Do you have anything to comment w/r to the name?
    - zaptrem 4y ago
      This is very clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities.

TrainedMonkey 4y ago

Ford's system has a lot more limitations. AFAIK, Tesla is the only company who has non-geo fenced FSD.

ModernMech 4y ago
You say “limitation” but I hear “safety feature”. Best to put limits on dynamic systems that aren’t well understood.

cjensen 4y ago

Ford, like GM, has a literal camera monitoring the driver's face so they can see if they are paying attention. Seeing what your face is doing is a much more reliable system of measuring attention than whether or not the driver is touching the steering wheel while reading their book.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
netsharc 4y ago
Doesn't Tesla have that too? Not that I trust Elonbois with a camera looking into my car, but hey, maybe someone will offer to buy me a horse...
- mceachen 4y ago
  No. See https://electrek.co/2021/01/20/tiktok-star-criminally-tesla-autopilot-posts-video-evidence/ https://electrek.co/2021/01/20/tiktok-star-criminally-tesla-... Edit: Sorry, I should have said _mostly no_. Last year they pushed an update to use the built-in cabin camera installed in 2021+ cars for "driver attentiveness." Compared to Ford and Cadillac's IR-illuminated driver attentiveness cameras pointed straight at your eyeballs and can see through sunglasses and works in the dark, the wide-angle cabin camera may not even see your face if you wear a hat, certainly _does not_ have a clear view of your pupils, and doesn't work in the dark or if you have dark glasses on. https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/tesla-releases-driver-monitoring-system-cabin-camera/ https://electrek.co/2021/05/27/tesla-releases-driver-monitor... https://electrek.co/2021/04/08/tesla-driver-monitoring-system-detect-driver-attention-real-time/ https://electrek.co/2021/04/08/tesla-driver-monitoring-syste...
  - netsharc 4y ago
    Yes. See https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-interior-cameras-driver-privacy-consumer-reports/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-interior-cameras-dr...

MBCook 4y ago

> Unlike tesla's which constantly requires putting pressure on the wheel to show you're there and paying attention, Ford's lets you drive indefinitely without any hands on the wheel That’s not Ford’s version of Autopilot, it’s one step further. It’s actually hands off (despite how many treat autopilot). Named BlueCruise. It’s comparable to GM SuperCruise. It ONLY works on specially mapped divided highways that Ford has approved. It will disengage for strong turns and anything it’s not ready for. You MUST watch the road, it keeps track with a camera on the wheel. Basically the way it treats the driver is far more conservative. Instead of telling the driver they need to pay attention, it actively monitors them. Instead of saying “you should only use it on these kind of roads“ it actively prevents you. It’s a fundamentally different approach. Ford’s ACC (not hands free, Co-Pilot 360) constantly monitors for steering wheel torque to ensure your hands are on the wheel and disengages pretty quickly if they’re hot and you ignore the warning. That said, I have it on my car. It’s freaky as hell to use, kind of scary. Maybe I would use it on long drives in the country, but I just don’t want something else that in charge in even medium traffic.

Tempest1981 4y ago
> Named BlueCruise Ah, thanks! I thought the dealer was saying "Blue's Clues"
chromejs10 4y ago
That is kind of similar to Tesla still though. At least with FSD Beta there is a camera actively monitoring you and making sure your eyes are on the road. I've also been on roads where autopilot either won't activate at all or will activate but at a reduced speed. I was hoping that once Tesla enabled that internal camera they would stop relying on weight on the steering wheel and just use eye tracking.

fdschoeneman 4y ago

I'm similarly confused. And with the shade Biden has been throwing at Tesla I'm concerned it may be politically motivated.