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Overengineered Japanese Mechanical Pencils [video]

381 points by jkellermann 4y ago

GrumpyNl 4y ago
Thats not overengineering, its good engineering. It solves real problems with great eye for detail.
niederman 4y ago
I agree that these pencils are "overengineered" in that they are multiple times more complex and expensive than their simpler counterparts while offering relatively little improvement in function, but if you use a pencil every day I think that increase in cost is more than worth it. I, for one, have loved my Kuru Toga pencil (the rotating lead one) since the day I got it a few years ago.
- lupire 4y ago
  Is a Lexus overengineered, or just better at a cost? If you don't lose a pencil, it lasts for decades and the cost is trivial.
dymax78 4y ago
Beautiful instruments. Personally, I still opt for a faber-castell clutch pencil, alvin lead, and a dahle or staedtler sharpener. In the event it's misplaced, it's not much of a loss (financially).
contingencies 4y ago
Here in China I realised if you want more than 4 colors or so, multicolour pens are also Japanese imports only. But they're too fat to be useful, IMHO. It's also hard to source ballpoint pens in non red-blue-black colours, for no apparent reason. I guess I'm oddball for liking colour contrast in my notes. The nicest pen I ever bought was machined out of Laotian tropical hardwood but it was a traditional calligraphic pen with the nib and ink management issues. For modern writing implements... you can't beat a fullscreen terminal, vim and a Cherry (German design, China fabrication I guess). https://www.cherry-world.com/ https://www.cherry-world.com/
- a9h74j 4y ago
  > I guess I'm oddball for liking colour contrast in my notes. I just started taking notes to learn a new programming language. Writing the code with a red pen and my own notes in blue makes for a fantastic contrast.
Justsignedup 4y ago
Gotta admit, the spring inside the tip to prevent stress breakage sounds amazing. It was the #1 reason I stopped using mechanical pencils.
- sva_ 4y ago
  I have a Pentel Orenz Nero 0.2mm with such a feature. It is pretty nice, but you will often scratch over the paper with the metal which is definitely a counter argument. Makes 0.2mm usable though. I think for 0.5mm you don't need it, just get some decent 'lead'.
  - eth0up 4y ago
    I have a Pentel (0.5) that I purchased 12 years ago. I treat it with equal ritual and reverence as I do, say, my Korean crossbow, or Leica optics - it has its own altar of sorts. I may have appendages of my own form that are guarded less. I modified it though, using a glue to permanently fix the pocket clip into a particular position. I was hesitant to post a trivial comment, but I discovered an ancient container of 0.5 pencil inserts this morning, and... I worship high quality Pentels. Built to last!
- bb88 4y ago
  There's a "pipe slide" model of the kuro toga that will slide the pipe with the writing so only a little bit of lead is exposed at all times. Uniball also has custom lead with a softer outside and a harder core.
dharmab 4y ago
I'm sad that I didn't discover the Kuru Toga pencil until after I left school. I put them in gift baskets for friends who are students.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That's lovely!
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Alright, I went in thinking "come on, how 'overengineered' can a mechanical pencil be?", and by about halfway through I wanted to buy one, and at the end I readily admit that they've managed to find exactly the problems with these things and fix them, way beyond what I would have thought practical. Remarkable:)
- anon_123g987 4y ago
  A product is not overengineered when it has many features, but when its many features make basic usage problematic, generally because the thing becomes less robust and fails too often. These features in the video look useful, but we haven't heard anything about failure rates, so we can't say if it's overengineering or not.
Escapado 4y ago
This is crazy cool! I wonder how these miniscule and thin lead sleeves are produced and how they manage to stay within tolerance and even get a rounded edge.
bb88 4y ago
I highly recommend getting the kuro toga pipe slide. The pipe slides up to protect the lead as you're writing, but you still get the clutch mechanism that rotates the lead. They're available on amazon for not a huge amount of money: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pipe+slide+kuro+toga https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pipe+slide+kuro+toga (no affiliate link)
deeg 4y ago
That was fun. I don't use anything except mechanical pencils but none of those really grabbed me and I generally love gadgets. For some reason I don't like the bouncy feel of the spring-protected tips and the only time I break leads is when I drop the pencil on the floor.
- jonhohle 4y ago
  The engineering on the spring protected pencils is amazing, I also like the rounded tip, retractable sleeve on the 0.2mm pencils. I hadn’t seen that before this video. Many years ago I really hoped the Kura Toga would be as revolutionary as the Quicker Clicker was back in the mid-90s, but it always felt like I was fighting the lead orientation. I have eventually settled on the rOtring and draftmatics because I enjoy their aggressive knurling. I would really like a heavy, aggressively knurled side advance (preferably lower than the Pentel’s). I really miss the transparent barrel that displayed the action of the Quicker Clicker, but like the ergonomics of the fatter, tackier rubber grip. I found the QC and the Pilot Precise V5, around the same time and nearly 30 years later they are still among my favorites. I mostly use the V5RT these days, but gladly grab a V5 (in blue or green) when I can.
  - SantalBlush 4y ago
    +1 on the Quicker Clicker. A fatter grip would be nice, but it's still hands down the best mechanical pencil I've ever used, and I've tried some fancy ones. My Kuru Toga stopped rotating and it no longer feeds lead properly. I've never had a QC break on me, I just lose them eventually due to frequent use.
    - mangamadaiyan 4y ago
      The last time this happened, i dismantled the cone of my Kuru Toga and found a small piece of lead stuck between the dispenser and the "side wall". Cleaned it out, and the pencil was as good as new. Switched to a slightly better brand of pencil lead (Staedtler), and have not seen this problem again.
- Meandering 4y ago
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Havoc 4y ago
The pointy metal ends on these bend so easily though. I love the concept but that just makes them a liability for daily driver use
- donutshop 4y ago
  Yeah it’s a sad day when the tip land straight onto the floor :(
- chernevik 4y ago
  You're looking for the Rotring 800, my friend. Twist to retract / extend the lead sleeve into / out of a rounded nub. And it has a beautiful solid heavy build. There are also the Pentel GraphGear models, which retract / extend with push, but the build isn't as satisfying.
  - s5300 4y ago
    Having used the Rotring 800, I can’t imagine why anybody would choose it over a GraphGear 1000. Even without taking the price difference into account.
gorgoiler 4y ago
JetPens’ marketing is amazing. Their online storefront is very well put together, and above all their buyer team ensures they have mountains of imported variety in every category. It’s so nice to see someone doing something well. Really well. I have no connection to them other than I spent $500 with them last Christmas on gifts for my entire family.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  The website seems to mimic Japanese craftsmanship. Really simple, really useful, well made.
  - queuebert 4y ago
    Reminds me of McMaster-Carr's website, which is another pinnacle of web design.
bllguo 4y ago
I've used the Kuru Toga for years. The mechanism is so good that I don't see the argument for any other pencil. Which is actually a shame, as I can't get excited for other pencils anymore. During my school years we had all kinds of discussions and comparisons for best pencils, best pens, best erasers.
- s5300 4y ago
  I feel the same about the GraphGear 1000. As for erasers - do you recall anything that beats out the Pentel Hi-Polymer block eraser for the overwhelming vast majority of use cases? I seriously couldn’t gear over just how bad Staedtler block eraser performed when I’d seen so many rave about it. I haven’t tried much other than it & the Pentel when it comes to erasers tho.
  - bllguo 4y ago
    I'm happy with my Sakura Foam eraser but the Pentel is certainly a classic. Not sure about Staedtler but everyone I've known throughout grade school and college coalesced onto Japanese brands, presumably for a reason ;)
fmajid 4y ago
I have the Orenz Nero, the Kuru Toga and even a Faber-Castell alpha-matic, but my favorite is a Faber-Castell e-motion with its lovely tactile wood barrel and expressive 1.4mm lead.
amelius 4y ago
How does the automatic lead extender know by how much to extend the lead? If I were to write lots of dots, the lead would wear off less than when I wrote lots of dashes, but I would touch the paper and lift the pen an equal amount of times. Guess: is it weight controlled?
- readingnews 4y ago
  I am not 100% sure how it works, but I own two of them, and if I write a bunch of dots, it does not keep extending the lead.
- Opossum 4y ago
  The automatic lead advance works like this: When the lead sleeve is retracted by any amount, it springs back to it's full length and along with that advances the lead by that amount. The way this happens in practice is as you write, the lead wears down till the sleeve rubs against the paper. Usually we write with the pencil at an angle with the paper. This angle causes the lead sleeve to retract when it rubs on the paper and then when you lift the pencil for the next stroke, the lead sleeve will spring back into position advancing the lead with it. If you're interested in more details and how the mechanism actually works, here is a good link: https://stationery.wiki/Auto-Advance_mechanism https://stationery.wiki/Auto-Advance_mechanism
willis936 4y ago
I looked hard for a nice pen about 5 years ago. I ended up going with a Zebra Sharbo X LT3. I use them so much that the matte finish comes to a shine in about 3 months and the plastic mechanism inside loosens up in about 1 year. They probably would last much longer if I did not flip them all day everyday. I happily buy new ones when it's time from JetPens. I've tried a few other models but nothing compares to the Sharbo X LT3. Unfortunately, the pretty colors have been discontinued, but if you're looking for a multipen and don't mind putting up some money, they're great.
auto 4y ago
These are super cool, but I have to admit I’ve sworn by BIC 0.5mm mechanical pencils for years. Part of it is that they are so cheap and commonplace, I like that at least for one aspect of my life I don’t rely on some super custom, boutique version of an everyday product.
- lisper 4y ago
  I have two Pentel 0.5mm classic black pencils with the teeny weeny erasers under a steel cap. I have used these since high school, so over 40 years. (I also have a Sharp calculator from the same era that is still working just fine. The Japanese really built things to last in the 80s.)
jdfellow 4y ago
Haven't watched the video yet, but I did just the last couple of weeks buy 2 Uni Kuru Toga pencils from JetPens and am enjoying them immensely.
snarfy 4y ago
I really love my staedtler.
jdeaton 4y ago
Cool! I just bought one of these (the shake one) and while checking out I accidentally didn't un-check the "sign me up for your newsletter box". Instead of automatically starting to spam me– they actually sent me a confirmation email asking if I really wanted to sign up for their newsletter– how considerate! Bravo Jet Pens for avoiding that dark pattern.
- torgoguys 4y ago
  That is cool, but it would be even better if it was opt-in during checkout, not opt-out.
- dwighttk 4y ago
  Jet Pens is the best
  - Wistar 4y ago
    Agree. I wish it was my company. Of course, then it'd be somewhat less of a company; perhaps just Propeller Pens.
- deleted 4y ago
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octagons 4y ago
I’ve been a huge JetPens fan for years. Something about the over-engineering makes it almost hobby-like to collect these pens and pencils. On the downside, I probably own 500 or so pens and pencils of all variety, plus a requisite number of over-engineered pencil cases. The habit extends beyond JetPens into somewhat exotic materials, like the pens from Tactile Turn out of Texas. It’s easy to spend $400+ on a pen there. It makes a fun conversation piece but very few understand the “cool pen” impulse some have.
david-cako 4y ago
In middle school, a buddy of mine drew a beautiful picture of a Bugatti Veyron with a silver Pilot Dr. Grip Ltd. shaker pencil and I was so enamored by his drawing and his pencil. He spent weeks getting the details just right during downtime in math class. It got me interested in stationary ever since then, and I've always loved JetPens. I've gone through phases where I really like mechanical pencils, although I mostly write with Uni Signo UM-151 0.38mm gel pens. Super smooth with a crisp, fine line. JetPens is a great site with a very cool niche. Check out Kinokuniya too. There's one in Little Tokyo in LA. Lots of pens, pencils, notebooks, and all sorts of books and manga.
tmaly 4y ago
Wow these are amazing. I bought my daughter a mechanical drafting pencil with 0.9 mm lead because 0.5 tends ti break on her. These might be the better solution
ctippett 4y ago
There's over engineered mechanical pencils and then there's the Wingback[0]. A £140 mechanical pencil made from stainless steel, featuring bespoke internals made in Japan and finished with a tungsten carbide coating. It may be over engineered and overpriced, but damn if it's not one beautiful item of stationary. [0] https://wingback.co.uk/collections/mechanical-pencil/products/mechanical-pencil-black-steel https://wingback.co.uk/collections/mechanical-pencil/product...
hypertexthero 4y ago
“Zebra DelGuard Type-ER” Sold.
ValentineC 4y ago
I've used a Pilot shaker mechanical pencil [1] over 20 years ago, and I'm quite surprised that the shaking mechanism, and many other quality-of-life improvements, still aren't that ubiquitous. [1] https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pilot-id-shaker-mechanical-pencil-5mm-507406586 https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pilot-id-shaker-mecha...
- Karliss 4y ago
  Isn't a button on side that you can press with pointing finger much simpler and faster way for achieving same thing? Was shaking in the video exaggerated and single flick of wrist sufficient or do you really need to shake that much? Looking forward hearing from someone who has used it, from the video it looked more like a gimmick than practical improvement.
matthalvorson 4y ago
When I was younger I lived in Japan for a year when my dad was stationed on a navy ship in Yokosuka. Most people I can remember then using "mechanical pencils" had those where there was a stack of maybe 8 pencil tips (lead + plastic casing around it) going down the hollow plastic body, and when the piece broke or wore down too far, you would remove it from the stack and push it back in the top of the pencil to make the next tip available. I hated using them, they always broke, felt bad to use, and if you put it in your pocket the wrong direction you'd stab your hand when you went to grab something. While exploring downtown on Blue Street (which had a mosaic of blue pebbles mixed into the road itself) we found a huge stationary store where the entire second floor was devoted to writing utensils. I went straight for the pencils section, more specifically, because I'm the kind of person who now uses hackernews, for the mechanical pencils section. It blew my mind. This store had everything. Metal pencils, plastic pencils, cheap pencils, expensive pencils, auto rotating lead, shake lead, with grips made of all kinds of materials. I don't remember if I even bought anything then, but what stuck with me was the fact they existed at all. Later in high school I pissed off my parents by doubling my school supplies cost by making a JetPens account, the online embodiment of that stationary store on Blue St. I tried a few different brands at first, but eventually the Tombow Zoom 505 Mechanical Pencil (0.5 mm) took the crown as my favorite. There's still one on my desk today. I almost felt like a different person writing with that pencil. I also started only buying 8.5x11 lined paper because my calc teacher required it, but that added to the experience. I was no longer handing in crumpled pages from a spiral notebook with broken pencil marks all over it, but professional products on crisp full size paper with perfect text. This started something for me, because ever since I've put a higher priority on what tools I use to make work. I have an happy hacker keyboard, a color graded BenQ photography monitor, and soon planning on upgrading to a stupidly expensive mirrorless camera. Maybe I'm just making "buying expensive high quality things" into more than it really is, but at least for me it makes a noticeable mental difference when I'm making things and can feel the engineering that went into the tools I'm using. Thanks for posting this! Brought up a lot of memories obviously lol
- no-dr-onboard 4y ago
  I bought the HHKB when I began my first infosec job 5 years ago. It’s outright the best keyboard I’ve ever used and even today I’m amazed at how well it is engineered and has held up. Japanese engineering is truly top notch in some areas.
kingcharles 4y ago
Don't kill me for this - but is there any advantage to using a pencil over a pen for writing, except for erasability?
- filoleg 4y ago
  One other reason i can think of, a pencil has a near zero chance of leaving smudges on paper or marks on your hands/clothing. Also, a better choice if you are writing on both sides of the paper and it isn't super thick, because pencil writing won't be visible on the other side of the paper.
  - rtpg 4y ago
    Pencil smudges are definitely still a huge issue for left handers.... I think that pencils are of course nice cuz you can write things lightly and then erase stuff. But honestly, after being forced to use a pen when moving to Europe in HS after years of "you have to use a pencil for math".... just scratching things out works so well. Pencils also are pressure sensitive, if you want to do anything like gradients... I still like pencils for doing paper puzzles or the like, just cuz it's a bit easier to "fix" stuff, but it's definitely the minority of my usage.
hiyer 4y ago
If, like me, you're reading this from India and want to get your hands on one of these beauties, a few of them (zebra delguard, tombow graph) are available at scooboo.in.
NalNezumi 4y ago
It might feel "overengineered" to people outside the Japanese society, but it actually just solves common issues here and it's not overengineering. The rotating mechanism is the easiest to see this. First, Kanji signs are more detailed than the alphabet and uneven lines can make it really ugly/hard to read. Same issue with breaking lead, causes ugliness. Second, traditionally handwriting in Japan have been seen as a way to measure one's upbringing; you can fake looks and style but if your handwriting is bad, that signals that your parents didn't raise you well. This was(and still is in some places) the reason resumes have to be handwritten. So tools that helps your handwriting had uses beyond just utility. (my handwriting is garbage and I'm happy IT and tech jobs doesn't check this)
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  > resumes have to be handwritten. Sounds incredibly easy to cheat, but also not something Japanese would do, would they?
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - ctvo 4y ago
    Many aspects of resumes are easy to cheat. List an undergrad at a more prestigious university while your graduate degree is accurate. There’s a high chance outside of government few will verify. Hell, lie about it all. I know for a fact my last big tech employer never verified education. My point is finding edge cases where a person with a certain set of antisocial traits will abuse the system doesn’t mean there isn’t value in it. The majority of people won’t take the risk to their professional reputation and will be honest.
  - Psyladine 4y ago
    What makes you say that? Their attitudes towards concepts like cheating, deception and outcome over process behind the social wall of politeness and diligence might surprise you.
  - whyoh 4y ago
ReleaseCandidat 4y ago
Nice, but when you're actually drawing (technical, not 'artistic') nothing beats a 4H pencil, a B pencil and colored pencils. But they have to be well sharpened. I had used a combination of 0.35mm, 0.5mm and 0.7mm mechanical pencils, but they had been significantly worse than 'real' pencils.
mathieubordere 4y ago
I had a smile on my face throughout the whole video, lovely.
hilbert42 4y ago
Wow, I'm impressed. I've used mechanical pencils for decades and I'd hate to go back to wooden pencils that one sharpens (although I make exceptions for carpenter's pencils in woodworking - but even then I'll use a mechanical pencil for that purpose if there's one in my shirt pocket at the time). My writing looks terrible if I use a ballpoint pen so I've always used pencils where possible, if I have to write in permanent ink then I'll use a good nibbed fountain pen (I've a collection including a Waterman, Parker and a Mont Blanc but good pens are outrageously expensive - and all of them are messy so I avoid them whenever possible). I don't know if others have this problem but the neatness of my handwriting is highly dependent on the type of implement that I'm writing with so I'm quite particular about the type of pen or pencil I use. (I've no idea why the quality of my writing is so variable and so dependent on the type writing implement that I'm using, so I've considerable envy for those who can write with just about any type of pen or pencil and that their writing always remains neat and tidy.) For years, I've used Cross 0.5mm mechanical propelling pencils and found them good but they too are hellishly expensive especially the gold plated ones, so when one of mine broke I kept my two remaining Crosses for best (as dress pencils for my suit etc.) and I started using the very much cheaper plastic Pentel ORENZ 0.5 and 0.7mm mechanical pencils (fact that they're cheap means I can have many more of them and scatter them around everywhere without the worry of losing one. By now I must have about a dozen or more scattered around the house. The reason I've so many is that I run a selection of leads with different hardnesses, typically HB, B, 2B and 4B. I selected the Pentel ORENZ type as they were the best of the plastic types available at my local office supplier, and I was unaware until now that there are likely to be better alternatives available in the cheaper class of pencils. One of the problems I've always had with mechanical pencils, including the high quality Crosses, is that I press hard and write heavily thus I'm forever breaking leads (incidentally, I use Pentel leads with the exception of 4B as over the years I've found them to be the strongest and most consistent). I can't quite say that about the Pentel ORENZ however, compared with the Cross I found that I'm breaking leads between two and three times more often. Moreover, it was even more frequent with some of these pencils. On careful inspection I found that the protective extension tube was a thou or so larger in diameter than the others and this led to the leads breaking much more frequently. In recent times this has led me to also use the next lead size up - 0.7mm (it's a bit thick but it's OK for quick and rough work). Whilst 0.7mm leads are definitely more rugged and much less prone to break, I would still much prefer to write with 0.5mm leads (again, my writing looks much tidier when I use them). The enhancements I've seen in the pencils in this story I've not seen previously anywhere else. Of particular interest to me are the improved lead delivery mechanism and the rotating lead arrangement so I'm particularly interested in purchasing them. (The smearing and broadening effect as the lead wears down is particularly annoying so I hope that feature works well.) One of the major problems with the sliding sleeve arrangement is that it interferes with one's writing by rubbing on the paper. The problem isn't very noticeable with the Crosses but nevertheless it's still annoying and it's close to being objectionable on the Pentel ORENZ. Moreover, if you drop the pencil it's likely to get a burr on the tip of the sleeve which will make things worse (the sleeve will then scrape across the paper instead of sliding over it). With these new pencils I can avoid that and I should be able overcome the problems I've been having with the Pentel ORENZ. I'm mindful however of the fact that the Pentel ORENZ is also reviewed in this collection and it was given a glowing writeup, so I'm expecting that some hype has crept into the comments on all pencils. I now have to figure how to purchase them, for certain there'll be no one near me who stocks them.
Brystephor 4y ago
What are a few goto pens that people use for note taking that involves some diagrams (think napkin system designs). I currently use a pilot G2 and it's decent but I feel like a weighted pen body could feel better.
- pbowyer 4y ago
  Two I like are the Pilot G4 range, and the Uni Pin fineliner range. They punch above their weight and if you damage the tip you haven't spent too much. The 0.3mm has become my new goto: https://uniball.co.uk/brands/pin/uni-pin-03-line-drawing-pen/ https://uniball.co.uk/brands/pin/uni-pin-03-line-drawing-pen...
plaguepilled 4y ago
I adore this kind of precise and incrementally improved solution. To me this exhibits the very best of the engineering craft: small, measurable improvements anchored in real issues faced by the consumer/client.
tristor 4y ago
I love Jet Pens. I actually found my way into it from the pen side, rather than the pencil side, getting very into Japanese made inks and fountain pens (and nib replacements for non-Japanese fountain pens). My first entry into this world was a quaint little stationary store in Kansas City where I found and bought a pen specifically designed to fit in the spine of a checkbook (this dates me, I'm sure). After that I began to realize the world of pens was larger than cheap bics and the occasional logoed click pen given away for free at a conference. Since that experience I've become a devoted fan of Zebra's line of pens, and I always carry an F-301 or F-402 in my pocket, have huge stacks of them in my pen drawer, and discovered the entire world of Japanese stationary. I now buy almost all of my stationary products from Japanese companies, except ironically mechanical pencils. My favorite mechanical pencil is the Rotring 800, which is made by a German company. For a fit of double-irony, they no longer manufacturer them in Germany and they are instead made in Japan under license by Holbein (who also makes amazing pencils for art use). Between Jet Pens and Goulet Pens, I've spent a small fortune on stationary products over the years, but it creates a visceral experience that can't be replicated electronically (I've tried). My writing has improved, I take more notes, I write with more eloquence, and I've found using good stationary and writing well is so rare now that it becomes a nice symbolic touch that gets remembered.
bribri 4y ago
Great for drawing too
jkellermann 4y ago
My first try to post in HackerNews, hoping this fits the spirit. I was amazed to see the features of these pencil pens. Are these pencils common where you live? Here in Germany, they are known, but rather seldomly used...
- karmanyaahm 4y ago
  > Are these pencils common where you live? In my experience in the US (Texas), most school students only use mechanical pencils for regular work. It's more convenient (no sharpener), and cheaper than a regular pencil.
- riversflow 4y ago
  I have a couple of Rotring 800’s that i adore because of the disappearing tip(makes them much more packable!) However I’m the only person I know who has anything not disposable.
- juanci_to 4y ago
  I grew up using a lot of mechanical pencils, but I was too reckless and the cheap ones I used broke easily. Now I just use a standard #2 pencil.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  All my German pens and colored pencils are for art, interestingly. Great investment it's been over the years, keep on coming back to faber-castell, but it does seem to be the focus of what is made in your country.
- jahewson 4y ago
  You had me at overengineered.
- emilsedgh 4y ago
  I grew up in Iran and these were very common back in the day. I personally had a very bad reaction to the sound of pencil on a paper and i could only write using these. Im amazed these aren't common here.

381 points by jkellermann 4y ago

Thats not overengineering, its good engineering. It solves real problems with great eye for detail.

I agree that these pencils are "overengineered" in that they are multiple times more complex and expensive than their simpler counterparts while offering relatively little improvement in function, but if you use a pencil every day I think that increase in cost is more than worth it. I, for one, have loved my Kuru Toga pencil (the rotating lead one) since the day I got it a few years ago.

lupire 4y ago
Is a Lexus overengineered, or just better at a cost? If you don't lose a pencil, it lasts for decades and the cost is trivial.

dymax78 4y ago

Beautiful instruments. Personally, I still opt for a faber-castell clutch pencil, alvin lead, and a dahle or staedtler sharpener. In the event it's misplaced, it's not much of a loss (financially).

contingencies 4y ago

Here in China I realised if you want more than 4 colors or so, multicolour pens are also Japanese imports only. But they're too fat to be useful, IMHO. It's also hard to source ballpoint pens in non red-blue-black colours, for no apparent reason. I guess I'm oddball for liking colour contrast in my notes. The nicest pen I ever bought was machined out of Laotian tropical hardwood but it was a traditional calligraphic pen with the nib and ink management issues. For modern writing implements... you can't beat a fullscreen terminal, vim and a Cherry (German design, China fabrication I guess). https://www.cherry-world.com/ https://www.cherry-world.com/

a9h74j 4y ago
> I guess I'm oddball for liking colour contrast in my notes. I just started taking notes to learn a new programming language. Writing the code with a red pen and my own notes in blue makes for a fantastic contrast.

Justsignedup 4y ago

Gotta admit, the spring inside the tip to prevent stress breakage sounds amazing. It was the #1 reason I stopped using mechanical pencils.

sva_ 4y ago
I have a Pentel Orenz Nero 0.2mm with such a feature. It is pretty nice, but you will often scratch over the paper with the metal which is definitely a counter argument. Makes 0.2mm usable though. I think for 0.5mm you don't need it, just get some decent 'lead'.
- eth0up 4y ago
  I have a Pentel (0.5) that I purchased 12 years ago. I treat it with equal ritual and reverence as I do, say, my Korean crossbow, or Leica optics - it has its own altar of sorts. I may have appendages of my own form that are guarded less. I modified it though, using a glue to permanently fix the pocket clip into a particular position. I was hesitant to post a trivial comment, but I discovered an ancient container of 0.5 pencil inserts this morning, and... I worship high quality Pentels. Built to last!
bb88 4y ago
There's a "pipe slide" model of the kuro toga that will slide the pipe with the writing so only a little bit of lead is exposed at all times. Uniball also has custom lead with a softer outside and a harder core.

dharmab 4y ago

I'm sad that I didn't discover the Kuru Toga pencil until after I left school. I put them in gift baskets for friends who are students.

jacquesm 4y ago
That's lovely!

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

Alright, I went in thinking "come on, how 'overengineered' can a mechanical pencil be?", and by about halfway through I wanted to buy one, and at the end I readily admit that they've managed to find exactly the problems with these things and fix them, way beyond what I would have thought practical. Remarkable:)

anon_123g987 4y ago
A product is not overengineered when it has many features, but when its many features make basic usage problematic, generally because the thing becomes less robust and fails too often. These features in the video look useful, but we haven't heard anything about failure rates, so we can't say if it's overengineering or not.

Escapado 4y ago

This is crazy cool! I wonder how these miniscule and thin lead sleeves are produced and how they manage to stay within tolerance and even get a rounded edge.

bb88 4y ago

I highly recommend getting the kuro toga pipe slide. The pipe slides up to protect the lead as you're writing, but you still get the clutch mechanism that rotates the lead. They're available on amazon for not a huge amount of money: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pipe+slide+kuro+toga https://www.amazon.com/s?k=pipe+slide+kuro+toga (no affiliate link)

deeg 4y ago

That was fun. I don't use anything except mechanical pencils but none of those really grabbed me and I generally love gadgets. For some reason I don't like the bouncy feel of the spring-protected tips and the only time I break leads is when I drop the pencil on the floor.

jonhohle 4y ago
The engineering on the spring protected pencils is amazing, I also like the rounded tip, retractable sleeve on the 0.2mm pencils. I hadn’t seen that before this video. Many years ago I really hoped the Kura Toga would be as revolutionary as the Quicker Clicker was back in the mid-90s, but it always felt like I was fighting the lead orientation. I have eventually settled on the rOtring and draftmatics because I enjoy their aggressive knurling. I would really like a heavy, aggressively knurled side advance (preferably lower than the Pentel’s). I really miss the transparent barrel that displayed the action of the Quicker Clicker, but like the ergonomics of the fatter, tackier rubber grip. I found the QC and the Pilot Precise V5, around the same time and nearly 30 years later they are still among my favorites. I mostly use the V5RT these days, but gladly grab a V5 (in blue or green) when I can.
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  +1 on the Quicker Clicker. A fatter grip would be nice, but it's still hands down the best mechanical pencil I've ever used, and I've tried some fancy ones. My Kuru Toga stopped rotating and it no longer feeds lead properly. I've never had a QC break on me, I just lose them eventually due to frequent use.
  - mangamadaiyan 4y ago
    The last time this happened, i dismantled the cone of my Kuru Toga and found a small piece of lead stuck between the dispenser and the "side wall". Cleaned it out, and the pencil was as good as new. Switched to a slightly better brand of pencil lead (Staedtler), and have not seen this problem again.
Meandering 4y ago

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Havoc 4y ago

The pointy metal ends on these bend so easily though. I love the concept but that just makes them a liability for daily driver use

donutshop 4y ago
Yeah it’s a sad day when the tip land straight onto the floor :(
chernevik 4y ago
You're looking for the Rotring 800, my friend. Twist to retract / extend the lead sleeve into / out of a rounded nub. And it has a beautiful solid heavy build. There are also the Pentel GraphGear models, which retract / extend with push, but the build isn't as satisfying.
- s5300 4y ago
  Having used the Rotring 800, I can’t imagine why anybody would choose it over a GraphGear 1000. Even without taking the price difference into account.

gorgoiler 4y ago

JetPens’ marketing is amazing. Their online storefront is very well put together, and above all their buyer team ensures they have mountains of imported variety in every category. It’s so nice to see someone doing something well. Really well. I have no connection to them other than I spent $500 with them last Christmas on gifts for my entire family.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago
The website seems to mimic Japanese craftsmanship. Really simple, really useful, well made.
- queuebert 4y ago
  Reminds me of McMaster-Carr's website, which is another pinnacle of web design.

bllguo 4y ago

I've used the Kuru Toga for years. The mechanism is so good that I don't see the argument for any other pencil. Which is actually a shame, as I can't get excited for other pencils anymore. During my school years we had all kinds of discussions and comparisons for best pencils, best pens, best erasers.

s5300 4y ago
I feel the same about the GraphGear 1000. As for erasers - do you recall anything that beats out the Pentel Hi-Polymer block eraser for the overwhelming vast majority of use cases? I seriously couldn’t gear over just how bad Staedtler block eraser performed when I’d seen so many rave about it. I haven’t tried much other than it & the Pentel when it comes to erasers tho.
- bllguo 4y ago
  I'm happy with my Sakura Foam eraser but the Pentel is certainly a classic. Not sure about Staedtler but everyone I've known throughout grade school and college coalesced onto Japanese brands, presumably for a reason ;)

fmajid 4y ago

I have the Orenz Nero, the Kuru Toga and even a Faber-Castell alpha-matic, but my favorite is a Faber-Castell e-motion with its lovely tactile wood barrel and expressive 1.4mm lead.

amelius 4y ago

How does the automatic lead extender know by how much to extend the lead? If I were to write lots of dots, the lead would wear off less than when I wrote lots of dashes, but I would touch the paper and lift the pen an equal amount of times. Guess: is it weight controlled?

readingnews 4y ago
I am not 100% sure how it works, but I own two of them, and if I write a bunch of dots, it does not keep extending the lead.
Opossum 4y ago
The automatic lead advance works like this: When the lead sleeve is retracted by any amount, it springs back to it's full length and along with that advances the lead by that amount. The way this happens in practice is as you write, the lead wears down till the sleeve rubs against the paper. Usually we write with the pencil at an angle with the paper. This angle causes the lead sleeve to retract when it rubs on the paper and then when you lift the pencil for the next stroke, the lead sleeve will spring back into position advancing the lead with it. If you're interested in more details and how the mechanism actually works, here is a good link: https://stationery.wiki/Auto-Advance_mechanism https://stationery.wiki/Auto-Advance_mechanism

willis936 4y ago

I looked hard for a nice pen about 5 years ago. I ended up going with a Zebra Sharbo X LT3. I use them so much that the matte finish comes to a shine in about 3 months and the plastic mechanism inside loosens up in about 1 year. They probably would last much longer if I did not flip them all day everyday. I happily buy new ones when it's time from JetPens. I've tried a few other models but nothing compares to the Sharbo X LT3. Unfortunately, the pretty colors have been discontinued, but if you're looking for a multipen and don't mind putting up some money, they're great.

auto 4y ago

These are super cool, but I have to admit I’ve sworn by BIC 0.5mm mechanical pencils for years. Part of it is that they are so cheap and commonplace, I like that at least for one aspect of my life I don’t rely on some super custom, boutique version of an everyday product.

lisper 4y ago
I have two Pentel 0.5mm classic black pencils with the teeny weeny erasers under a steel cap. I have used these since high school, so over 40 years. (I also have a Sharp calculator from the same era that is still working just fine. The Japanese really built things to last in the 80s.)

jdfellow 4y ago

Haven't watched the video yet, but I did just the last couple of weeks buy 2 Uni Kuru Toga pencils from JetPens and am enjoying them immensely.

snarfy 4y ago

I really love my staedtler.

jdeaton 4y ago

Cool! I just bought one of these (the shake one) and while checking out I accidentally didn't un-check the "sign me up for your newsletter box". Instead of automatically starting to spam me– they actually sent me a confirmation email asking if I really wanted to sign up for their newsletter– how considerate! Bravo Jet Pens for avoiding that dark pattern.

torgoguys 4y ago
That is cool, but it would be even better if it was opt-in during checkout, not opt-out.
dwighttk 4y ago
Jet Pens is the best
- Wistar 4y ago
  Agree. I wish it was my company. Of course, then it'd be somewhat less of a company; perhaps just Propeller Pens.
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octagons 4y ago

I’ve been a huge JetPens fan for years. Something about the over-engineering makes it almost hobby-like to collect these pens and pencils. On the downside, I probably own 500 or so pens and pencils of all variety, plus a requisite number of over-engineered pencil cases. The habit extends beyond JetPens into somewhat exotic materials, like the pens from Tactile Turn out of Texas. It’s easy to spend $400+ on a pen there. It makes a fun conversation piece but very few understand the “cool pen” impulse some have.

david-cako 4y ago

In middle school, a buddy of mine drew a beautiful picture of a Bugatti Veyron with a silver Pilot Dr. Grip Ltd. shaker pencil and I was so enamored by his drawing and his pencil. He spent weeks getting the details just right during downtime in math class. It got me interested in stationary ever since then, and I've always loved JetPens. I've gone through phases where I really like mechanical pencils, although I mostly write with Uni Signo UM-151 0.38mm gel pens. Super smooth with a crisp, fine line. JetPens is a great site with a very cool niche. Check out Kinokuniya too. There's one in Little Tokyo in LA. Lots of pens, pencils, notebooks, and all sorts of books and manga.

tmaly 4y ago

Wow these are amazing. I bought my daughter a mechanical drafting pencil with 0.9 mm lead because 0.5 tends ti break on her. These might be the better solution

ctippett 4y ago

There's over engineered mechanical pencils and then there's the Wingback[0]. A £140 mechanical pencil made from stainless steel, featuring bespoke internals made in Japan and finished with a tungsten carbide coating. It may be over engineered and overpriced, but damn if it's not one beautiful item of stationary. [0] https://wingback.co.uk/collections/mechanical-pencil/products/mechanical-pencil-black-steel https://wingback.co.uk/collections/mechanical-pencil/product...

hypertexthero 4y ago

“Zebra DelGuard Type-ER” Sold.

ValentineC 4y ago

I've used a Pilot shaker mechanical pencil [1] over 20 years ago, and I'm quite surprised that the shaking mechanism, and many other quality-of-life improvements, still aren't that ubiquitous. [1] https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pilot-id-shaker-mechanical-pencil-5mm-507406586 https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pilot-id-shaker-mecha...

Karliss 4y ago
Isn't a button on side that you can press with pointing finger much simpler and faster way for achieving same thing? Was shaking in the video exaggerated and single flick of wrist sufficient or do you really need to shake that much? Looking forward hearing from someone who has used it, from the video it looked more like a gimmick than practical improvement.

matthalvorson 4y ago

When I was younger I lived in Japan for a year when my dad was stationed on a navy ship in Yokosuka. Most people I can remember then using "mechanical pencils" had those where there was a stack of maybe 8 pencil tips (lead + plastic casing around it) going down the hollow plastic body, and when the piece broke or wore down too far, you would remove it from the stack and push it back in the top of the pencil to make the next tip available. I hated using them, they always broke, felt bad to use, and if you put it in your pocket the wrong direction you'd stab your hand when you went to grab something. While exploring downtown on Blue Street (which had a mosaic of blue pebbles mixed into the road itself) we found a huge stationary store where the entire second floor was devoted to writing utensils. I went straight for the pencils section, more specifically, because I'm the kind of person who now uses hackernews, for the mechanical pencils section. It blew my mind. This store had everything. Metal pencils, plastic pencils, cheap pencils, expensive pencils, auto rotating lead, shake lead, with grips made of all kinds of materials. I don't remember if I even bought anything then, but what stuck with me was the fact they existed at all. Later in high school I pissed off my parents by doubling my school supplies cost by making a JetPens account, the online embodiment of that stationary store on Blue St. I tried a few different brands at first, but eventually the Tombow Zoom 505 Mechanical Pencil (0.5 mm) took the crown as my favorite. There's still one on my desk today. I almost felt like a different person writing with that pencil. I also started only buying 8.5x11 lined paper because my calc teacher required it, but that added to the experience. I was no longer handing in crumpled pages from a spiral notebook with broken pencil marks all over it, but professional products on crisp full size paper with perfect text. This started something for me, because ever since I've put a higher priority on what tools I use to make work. I have an happy hacker keyboard, a color graded BenQ photography monitor, and soon planning on upgrading to a stupidly expensive mirrorless camera. Maybe I'm just making "buying expensive high quality things" into more than it really is, but at least for me it makes a noticeable mental difference when I'm making things and can feel the engineering that went into the tools I'm using. Thanks for posting this! Brought up a lot of memories obviously lol

no-dr-onboard 4y ago
I bought the HHKB when I began my first infosec job 5 years ago. It’s outright the best keyboard I’ve ever used and even today I’m amazed at how well it is engineered and has held up. Japanese engineering is truly top notch in some areas.

kingcharles 4y ago

Don't kill me for this - but is there any advantage to using a pencil over a pen for writing, except for erasability?

filoleg 4y ago
One other reason i can think of, a pencil has a near zero chance of leaving smudges on paper or marks on your hands/clothing. Also, a better choice if you are writing on both sides of the paper and it isn't super thick, because pencil writing won't be visible on the other side of the paper.
- rtpg 4y ago
  Pencil smudges are definitely still a huge issue for left handers.... I think that pencils are of course nice cuz you can write things lightly and then erase stuff. But honestly, after being forced to use a pen when moving to Europe in HS after years of "you have to use a pencil for math".... just scratching things out works so well. Pencils also are pressure sensitive, if you want to do anything like gradients... I still like pencils for doing paper puzzles or the like, just cuz it's a bit easier to "fix" stuff, but it's definitely the minority of my usage.

hiyer 4y ago

If, like me, you're reading this from India and want to get your hands on one of these beauties, a few of them (zebra delguard, tombow graph) are available at scooboo.in.

NalNezumi 4y ago

It might feel "overengineered" to people outside the Japanese society, but it actually just solves common issues here and it's not overengineering. The rotating mechanism is the easiest to see this. First, Kanji signs are more detailed than the alphabet and uneven lines can make it really ugly/hard to read. Same issue with breaking lead, causes ugliness. Second, traditionally handwriting in Japan have been seen as a way to measure one's upbringing; you can fake looks and style but if your handwriting is bad, that signals that your parents didn't raise you well. This was(and still is in some places) the reason resumes have to be handwritten. So tools that helps your handwriting had uses beyond just utility. (my handwriting is garbage and I'm happy IT and tech jobs doesn't check this)

dzhiurgis 4y ago
> resumes have to be handwritten. Sounds incredibly easy to cheat, but also not something Japanese would do, would they?
- deleted 4y ago
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- ctvo 4y ago
  Many aspects of resumes are easy to cheat. List an undergrad at a more prestigious university while your graduate degree is accurate. There’s a high chance outside of government few will verify. Hell, lie about it all. I know for a fact my last big tech employer never verified education. My point is finding edge cases where a person with a certain set of antisocial traits will abuse the system doesn’t mean there isn’t value in it. The majority of people won’t take the risk to their professional reputation and will be honest.
- Psyladine 4y ago
  What makes you say that? Their attitudes towards concepts like cheating, deception and outcome over process behind the social wall of politeness and diligence might surprise you.
- whyoh 4y ago

ReleaseCandidat 4y ago

Nice, but when you're actually drawing (technical, not 'artistic') nothing beats a 4H pencil, a B pencil and colored pencils. But they have to be well sharpened. I had used a combination of 0.35mm, 0.5mm and 0.7mm mechanical pencils, but they had been significantly worse than 'real' pencils.

mathieubordere 4y ago

I had a smile on my face throughout the whole video, lovely.

hilbert42 4y ago

Wow, I'm impressed. I've used mechanical pencils for decades and I'd hate to go back to wooden pencils that one sharpens (although I make exceptions for carpenter's pencils in woodworking - but even then I'll use a mechanical pencil for that purpose if there's one in my shirt pocket at the time). My writing looks terrible if I use a ballpoint pen so I've always used pencils where possible, if I have to write in permanent ink then I'll use a good nibbed fountain pen (I've a collection including a Waterman, Parker and a Mont Blanc but good pens are outrageously expensive - and all of them are messy so I avoid them whenever possible). I don't know if others have this problem but the neatness of my handwriting is highly dependent on the type of implement that I'm writing with so I'm quite particular about the type of pen or pencil I use. (I've no idea why the quality of my writing is so variable and so dependent on the type writing implement that I'm using, so I've considerable envy for those who can write with just about any type of pen or pencil and that their writing always remains neat and tidy.) For years, I've used Cross 0.5mm mechanical propelling pencils and found them good but they too are hellishly expensive especially the gold plated ones, so when one of mine broke I kept my two remaining Crosses for best (as dress pencils for my suit etc.) and I started using the very much cheaper plastic Pentel ORENZ 0.5 and 0.7mm mechanical pencils (fact that they're cheap means I can have many more of them and scatter them around everywhere without the worry of losing one. By now I must have about a dozen or more scattered around the house. The reason I've so many is that I run a selection of leads with different hardnesses, typically HB, B, 2B and 4B. I selected the Pentel ORENZ type as they were the best of the plastic types available at my local office supplier, and I was unaware until now that there are likely to be better alternatives available in the cheaper class of pencils. One of the problems I've always had with mechanical pencils, including the high quality Crosses, is that I press hard and write heavily thus I'm forever breaking leads (incidentally, I use Pentel leads with the exception of 4B as over the years I've found them to be the strongest and most consistent). I can't quite say that about the Pentel ORENZ however, compared with the Cross I found that I'm breaking leads between two and three times more often. Moreover, it was even more frequent with some of these pencils. On careful inspection I found that the protective extension tube was a thou or so larger in diameter than the others and this led to the leads breaking much more frequently. In recent times this has led me to also use the next lead size up - 0.7mm (it's a bit thick but it's OK for quick and rough work). Whilst 0.7mm leads are definitely more rugged and much less prone to break, I would still much prefer to write with 0.5mm leads (again, my writing looks much tidier when I use them). The enhancements I've seen in the pencils in this story I've not seen previously anywhere else. Of particular interest to me are the improved lead delivery mechanism and the rotating lead arrangement so I'm particularly interested in purchasing them. (The smearing and broadening effect as the lead wears down is particularly annoying so I hope that feature works well.) One of the major problems with the sliding sleeve arrangement is that it interferes with one's writing by rubbing on the paper. The problem isn't very noticeable with the Crosses but nevertheless it's still annoying and it's close to being objectionable on the Pentel ORENZ. Moreover, if you drop the pencil it's likely to get a burr on the tip of the sleeve which will make things worse (the sleeve will then scrape across the paper instead of sliding over it). With these new pencils I can avoid that and I should be able overcome the problems I've been having with the Pentel ORENZ. I'm mindful however of the fact that the Pentel ORENZ is also reviewed in this collection and it was given a glowing writeup, so I'm expecting that some hype has crept into the comments on all pencils. I now have to figure how to purchase them, for certain there'll be no one near me who stocks them.

Brystephor 4y ago

What are a few goto pens that people use for note taking that involves some diagrams (think napkin system designs). I currently use a pilot G2 and it's decent but I feel like a weighted pen body could feel better.

pbowyer 4y ago
Two I like are the Pilot G4 range, and the Uni Pin fineliner range. They punch above their weight and if you damage the tip you haven't spent too much. The 0.3mm has become my new goto: https://uniball.co.uk/brands/pin/uni-pin-03-line-drawing-pen/ https://uniball.co.uk/brands/pin/uni-pin-03-line-drawing-pen...

plaguepilled 4y ago

I adore this kind of precise and incrementally improved solution. To me this exhibits the very best of the engineering craft: small, measurable improvements anchored in real issues faced by the consumer/client.

tristor 4y ago

I love Jet Pens. I actually found my way into it from the pen side, rather than the pencil side, getting very into Japanese made inks and fountain pens (and nib replacements for non-Japanese fountain pens). My first entry into this world was a quaint little stationary store in Kansas City where I found and bought a pen specifically designed to fit in the spine of a checkbook (this dates me, I'm sure). After that I began to realize the world of pens was larger than cheap bics and the occasional logoed click pen given away for free at a conference. Since that experience I've become a devoted fan of Zebra's line of pens, and I always carry an F-301 or F-402 in my pocket, have huge stacks of them in my pen drawer, and discovered the entire world of Japanese stationary. I now buy almost all of my stationary products from Japanese companies, except ironically mechanical pencils. My favorite mechanical pencil is the Rotring 800, which is made by a German company. For a fit of double-irony, they no longer manufacturer them in Germany and they are instead made in Japan under license by Holbein (who also makes amazing pencils for art use). Between Jet Pens and Goulet Pens, I've spent a small fortune on stationary products over the years, but it creates a visceral experience that can't be replicated electronically (I've tried). My writing has improved, I take more notes, I write with more eloquence, and I've found using good stationary and writing well is so rare now that it becomes a nice symbolic touch that gets remembered.

bribri 4y ago

Great for drawing too

jkellermann 4y ago

My first try to post in HackerNews, hoping this fits the spirit. I was amazed to see the features of these pencil pens. Are these pencils common where you live? Here in Germany, they are known, but rather seldomly used...

karmanyaahm 4y ago
> Are these pencils common where you live? In my experience in the US (Texas), most school students only use mechanical pencils for regular work. It's more convenient (no sharpener), and cheaper than a regular pencil.
riversflow 4y ago
I have a couple of Rotring 800’s that i adore because of the disappearing tip(makes them much more packable!) However I’m the only person I know who has anything not disposable.
juanci_to 4y ago
I grew up using a lot of mechanical pencils, but I was too reckless and the cheap ones I used broke easily. Now I just use a standard #2 pencil.
- deleted 4y ago
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jamal-kumar 4y ago
All my German pens and colored pencils are for art, interestingly. Great investment it's been over the years, keep on coming back to faber-castell, but it does seem to be the focus of what is made in your country.
jahewson 4y ago
You had me at overengineered.
emilsedgh 4y ago
I grew up in Iran and these were very common back in the day. I personally had a very bad reaction to the sound of pencil on a paper and i could only write using these. Im amazed these aren't common here.