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Taking this to the logical extreme: A French website can not use any American service, right? Because any American services "are not sufficient to exclude the
by rebelde 5y ago
Taking this to the logical extreme:
A French website can not use any American service, right?
Because any American services "are not sufficient to exclude the accessibility of this data for US intelligence services".
- einpoklum 5y agoIndeed, a French website which keeps private information about its users must not - ethically, morally - use US services which are accessible to US intelligence agencies. That is irrespective of any legislation or court rulings, it's just common sense.
- nickpp 5y agoI wonder who are people more afraid of exposing their private information to: the USA or their own government.
- BeFlatXIII 5y agoAs a US analog, I'm more concerned with my own government collecting data on me than I am about the Chinese. One of those has an entire ocean to cross to cause me IRL problems.
- vault 5y agoThe USA, of course. Don't forget you vote for your government, not for Google's CEO.
- chaxor 5y ago"The government has a defect. It's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect - They're pure tyrannies." - Noam Chomsky
- nickpp 5y agoStill waiting for those "pure tyrannies". Meanwhile every damn thing I am using in my daily life, from my car, computer to the furnace heating my house - was made by a corporation. And I did live under communism, with absolutely zero corporations. Then I knew tyranny every day. And shortages. Did Noam Chomsky live under communism by any chance?
- nickpp 5y agoGoogle's CEO has pretty much ZERO powers over me. The USA government is (largely) democratic and (mostly) obeys laws. But my government... is not the one I voted for and I trust it 0%. Because I do not live in the West but in one of the great majority of countries with a corrupt, abusive government. The democratic governments of the West are the exception, not the rule.
- einpoklum 5y ago> The USA government is (largely) democratic Well, if I may nitpick, it's a federal republic rather than a democracy... More to the point though, there was this study at Princeton U about the correlation between US government policy and popular opinion on a variety of subjects which found that public opinion correlates very poorly with government policy / legislation passed, but opinions among the very-rich correlate well. Can't remember the exact reference right now. > and (mostly) obeys laws. Oh, definitely not. It can well be argued that there is constant mass violation of the constitution. And regardless of this, the US is such a notorious outlaw on the international level that not only does it refuse to accept jurisdiction of the international criminal court, but has in fact threatened action against court staff if the court hears any case against it: https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/15/us-threatens-international-criminal-court https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/03/15/us-threatens-internation...
- nickpp 5y agoStill infinitely better than my government though, which was the whole point.
- chaxor 5y agoThe effect you mentioned (democratic deficit) is also inversely correlated with unionization (which positively correlates with public engagement with government). So it could be that the reduction in population median household income due to reduction in unionization (and increase in top earner profit / larger inequalities) causes an exacerbation of the effect, with the observation you mentioned.
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- tokai 5y agoDefinitely USA. My government doesn't drone strike people based on communication patterns or disappear them to black sites without ever being put in front of a judge.
- nickpp 5y agoAre you afraid USA would drone strike or disappear you if they get to your private data? Do you think that is a valid concern for most people?
- inetknght 5y agoI think it's a valid concern for everyone, yes.
- nickpp 5y agoThen you should get out more and talk to some real people.
- cycomanic 5y agoYou are aware that there was a number of completely innocent people who were disappeared int US black sites, because of some name mismatch, something they said somewhere or because their neighbor didn't like them. Now you might be white and have an English name so chances of that happening to you might be slim. However if you do not believe that this is an issue that we have to work against i suggest you get out and develop some principles. You seem to only have issues with these things if done by communist governments.
- nickpp 5y agoI am aware. Those cases number in what - single digits?! Statistically speaking I am much more likely to die of the flu. However, communist governments have done that to millions. If you don't see the difference, I suggest you reexamine your principles.
- einpoklum 5y agoThe french service should expose user information to the French government either. If the government has a public warrant for that information, then opinions might differ about whether or not it is legitimate for the website operators to oblige.
- xdennis 5y ago> I wonder who are people more afraid of exposing their private information to: the USA or their own government. The USA, because, at least in principle, every individual has some manner of influence over his own government.
- nickpp 5y agoBut, reversely, every individual's own government has a much bigger influence on the individual than the US government has.
- verdverm 5y agoSince everyone is spying on everyone, what's the ethical or moral issue here?
- zelphirkalt 5y agoThe issue would be, that the website developers / their management contributes to the issue, by enabling partier to do that spying. If no data was send to another party, then spying on that data is much harder and probably unattractive for most use-cases. GA data becomes valuable through collecting from many many senders. While the people doing the spying are already doing something ethically very questionable, the person deciding what data is collected on a webservice can still make the decision to contribute to the problem, or be vigilant about data protection.
- verdverm 5y agoSo you are saying the US intelligence agencies have some unfettered access to all of GA data? Or that it is sent unencrypted and intercepted in transit? It's not the DNS calls or phone companies that are more to worry about?
- zelphirkalt 5y agoIf US intelligence wants to have access, they will, via their law, as far as I understand. They will require Alphabet to give the data, Alphabet will get it from Google, and that is it. No need to listen or intercept anything. Best thing you can do is not to make use of GA in the first place, so that no such data of visitors of your websites exists in Google infrastructure.
- verdverm 5y agoI think your understanding of US intelligence and forcing companies into compliance needs updating. First, it is exaggerated, which is not surprising in today's media and outrage climate. Second, things have changed since Snowden and the congressional oversight had been rolled out. Third, GA is not that valuable compared to other sources. Your chief complaining would be better spent about how Google uses the data rather than intelligence agencies. Also note that Google fights against overly broad intelligence / police requests and publishes data on how many they get and comply with.
- RIMR 5y agoTaking this to the logical conclusion: This is the fault of US Intelligence Services for overreaching to the point where it impacts general trust in US companies, and should be solidly blamed on them for being legitimately untrustworthy and exploitive.
- PoignardAzur 5y agoWe're quickly getting there. For instance, any service that handles health data absolutely cannot have the data be accessible in a way, shape or form by american-owned entities, for any reason. It's not hard to imagine that, as time goes on, these same limitations will be expanded to other types of decreasingly sensitive data. And honestly, that's perfectly reasonable. The US government gives itself the right to systematically spy on everything going through US cloud companies. Precedent has shown it can and will use that data against the interests of its supposed allies, even for industrial espionage. If the US says "every US company must give over european data to the government", then at some point europeans have to say "US companies can't have european data".
- rebelde 5y agoWhat about Hungarian services? Hungary is in the EU.