8 ms·

Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based Covid-19 Vaccination

65 points by drocer88 5y ago

tchalla 5y ago
> To be clear: whoever gets heart inflammation from Moderna would’ve almost certainly got it worse from Covid. The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213480823017472?s=21 https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213480823017472?s=2... Edit : Consider readied the entire Twitter thread. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/myocarditis/13719262 https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/myoc... > It's hard to sift through the mass of information and misinformation that exists about COVID-19. Recently there’s been increased focus on myocarditis and whether COVID-19 vaccines increase the risk of this condition and, if so, is that risk greater or less than the risk if you contract COVID. > To clarify exactly what the situation is Josh Szeps spoke to an expert, Associate Professor Raj Puranik who’s a consultant cardiologist with the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Camperdown and board member and clinical practice advisor with the Cardiac Society of Australia and New Zealand.
- mattzito 5y ago
  I'm confused by this - the AZ vaccine also expresses the spike protein, just in a different delivery mechanism, right? That was my understanding when I got the AZ vaccine in a trial.
- yucky 5y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the FDA still has not approved Moderna beyond emergency use, due to the myocarditis issues. This, in addition to a number of EU countries that have now stopped giving Moderna to males under 30 for the same reason.
- legitster 5y ago
  We're likely not seeing myocarditis in AZ shots because it's a very long tail event and the AZ represent an order of magnitude smaller sample size.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. Does the AstraZeneca vaccine not include the spike protein? I thought it included the whole virus including the spike protein.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    It should also produce the spike protein I believe, it's just that the triggers for cells to produce it are within an adenovirus, not mrna inside lipids. So I'm not sure what this guy is on about.
  - mattzito 5y ago
    I posted a similar comment, but it's not the same - AZ uses a modified non-Covid virus that has been engineered to model the spike protein. I'm not sure why that spike protein is different than the MRNA, other than being attached to a virus.
    - basch 5y ago
      The spike is not attached to the virus, it's produced by the virus. In both the mrna and viral vector vaccines, the mrna and virus are the DELIVERY mechanism of the payload.
      - MockObject 5y ago
        Spike proteins are found on the surface of the virus particles. They aren't released by the virus as some sort of pollutant.
        basch 5y ago
        The instructions for producing the spike protein are released by the virus. Your body produces the spike protein, just like with an mrna vaccine. The difference between the vaccines is the delivery method of the instructions (spike recipes.) https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/different-types-of-covid-19-vaccines/art-20506465 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i... "In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells." https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid-19-vaccines-heres-how-they-work https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid... "Viral vector vaccines also work by giving cells genetic instructions to produce antigens. But they differ from nucleic acid vaccines in that they use a harmless virus, different from the one the vaccine is targeting, to deliver these instructions into the cell. One type of virus that has often been used as a vector is adenovirus, which causes the common cold. As with nucleic acid vaccines, our own cellular machinery is hijacked to produce the antigen from those instructions, in order to trigger an immune response." https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adenovirus-vaccine https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adeno... "The adenovirus goes in and does its normal infection route; all that machinery is intact.. But in this case, the DNA payload that's delivered into your cells is not a big set of instructions for making more adenoviruses, it's a much shorter sequence that codes for the coronavirus spike protein instead. So the modified DNA gets transcribed to messenger RNA in your cells (and that's the exact step that the mRNA vaccines jump in at if you take them), and this mRNA is taken up by ribosomes and translated into the Spike protein itself." https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccine-roundup-early-september https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccin... "This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, these proteins will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each viral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it. " The virus pollutes the body with spike protein recipes. There are absolutely not spike proteins on the surface of the vector virus.
- goalieca 5y ago
  Well his blue check says he’s a journalist. I do wonder if the delivery is different. Wild covid is caught in the respiratory tract while vaccine is injected in the muscle. Any medically savvy people can comment on this pseudoscientific drivel?
- licnep 5y ago
  >In viral vector vaccines (AstraZeneca, Sputnik, Johnson & Johnson) the gene for the spike protein is introduced into an adenovirus. Following vaccination, the modified adenovirus will infect cells of the host, which will subsequently start to produce the spike protein So if there is a difference in the incidence of myocarditis, it must be for a different reason. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34228411/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34228411/
- cuspy 5y ago
  To be clear: this is an overconfident assumption, not an evidence-based claim. It's not even plausible on the surface. Why would we assume these proteins would be distributed similarly in the infection case and the vaccination case? We know that very different physiological processes will be taking place, so why assume the inflammatory responses must be the same?
- mizzack 5y ago
  > The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. AZ also uses spike, so he's undermining his own argument. Of course the spike is pathogenic. In this case, though, it could be something else like the mRNA strands themselves or the structure of the lipid envelope causing inflammation. There isn't enough evidence either way for this journalist to confidently assert a single cause.
- gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
  Re: question of why the spike protein from mRNA vaccines shows increased risk of heart inflammation vs AZ vaccine, I listened to the entire interview with Raj Puranik [0], and it's still not clear to me why. He said comparing side-effect profiles of different vaccines is challenging because the dosage and delivery are so different. I.e. mRNA is given over 3 weeks while AZ is given over months. [0]: https://abcmedia.akamaized.net/radio/local_sydney/audio/202201/aau-2022-01-18-myocarditis.mp3 https://abcmedia.akamaized.net/radio/local_sydney/audio/2022...
  - nojokes 5y ago
    If it was just reaction to the spike protein then why is myocarditis more likely on the second vaccination? I think it is therefore more likely that adaptive immune system is involved because it has ability to remember. Now is it possible that spike protein itself or lipid shell is causing this based on indicence rate differences between 3 vaccines? Hard to say. The amount of spike protein produced is in correlation with amount of mRNA entering cells. The amount of mRNA entering cells is 3x higher with Moderna vaccine than with Pfizer vaccine and it appears that it is similar on both shots (first and second). But the amount of mRNA (converted from adenovirus DNA) entering cells with the second AZ shot is probably lower than on the first shot because there is also some immunity against the adenovirus and the dose size is the same. This is in correlation with the amount of antibodies produced by these vaccines. This is the not contradicting with the observation so far. But it could be also lipid cell that has been found to cause inflammation. Considering the high amount of antibodies generated on the second vaccination, it is plausible that the lipid shells are not attacked by the immune system directly. But it might be possible that the cells are attacked after lipid shells have merged with their membranes. There are few ways to find how what is most likely happening. First is to hope that protein based vaccine from Novavax will be used by meaningful amount to detect proper incidence rates. When it is spike protein itself then we should see also high incidence rate on second vaccination. The second option is to analyze mixed vaccinations where first vaccination was done with adenovirus vaccine and the second one with mRNA vaccine. It is not perfect setup but it might provide some additional information. Third option is to use a mouse model similar to one in previous study where mouse were intravenously injected with mRNA vaccines. Repeat the study with mRNA vaccine, placebo (saline solution), dummy lipid shells and protein vaccines (might be necessary to do the study without and with the adjuvant).
draw_down 5y ago
> This risk should be considered in the context of the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination. Whoa now, easy on the antivaxxer rhetoric!
- JohnHaugeland 5y ago
  That's not an antivax thing to say, or rhetoric at all. They're saying "sure, seat belts occasionally break ribs, but consider that in the context of all the windshields you didn't get thrown through"
  - castrodd 5y ago
    I think he was using a rhetorical device called sarcasm.
    - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
      Sarcasm is not a rhetorical device, and I don't believe anyone was trying to hurt feelings. If you feel the need to make a joke like that, which is unfunny and makes you look like you don't understand things, you should expect some inbound explanations.
      - draw_down 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - draw_down 5y ago
assbuttbuttass 5y ago
It's important to mention that catching COVID also causes myocarditis https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm Edit: this article says out of 192 405 448 people, 1626 had myocarditis, or about 0.0008%. In contrast, the CDC estimates COVID has a 0.146% chance to give you myocarditis.
- cuspy 5y ago
  These numbers are not even remotely comparable. The CDC number includes ages groups that are much more likely to have severe infections. The CDC number you cited is also based on hospitalized cases, which select for severity
- dazilcher 5y ago
  I am fully vaccinated and, as I'm typing this, recovering from COVID. Do tell me more about this vaccine/disease exclusivity. I must be doing something wrong.
- mgamache 5y ago
  It's also true that VAERS may be underreporting cases.
  - zenplant 5y ago
    It's probably true that cases are under reported in both groups. Many people with myocarditis might just go along with their day because the symptoms aren't especially worrisome to them. You can imagine the cohort of people with political affiliations that say COVID isn't worth worrying about might not see a doctor even if the symptoms are worrisome.
  - alfor 5y ago
    I hear that a factor of a 100X is common. The system is made so that the least amount of effect are reported. Personally I know someone who had a heart attack 3 day after second dose (60yo female) The doctor dismissed the possibility of a causation by the vaccine, this case is not reported even if the person almost died. Is covid still worse than the vaccine with Omicron, I don’t know, probable. But I know that most side effect are not reported. A crazy thing is that the Myocardis rate can be reduce 3X by a 2 second procedure at vaccination (verifying that the injection is not in a vein)
deleted 5y ago
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scotty79 5y ago
Number of registered cases of myocarditits after vaccination is not very different from baseline, while covid infection increses risk of miocarditis 16 times. I wouldn't be surprised if incresed risk of miocarditis after second dose is completely explained by changes in behavior of people who finally got vaccinated after many monthes of lockdowns. They probably started going out more and exposing themselves to coronavirus which vaccine provides partial protection against. Researchers don't even exclude from this research people who got full blown covid before their miocarditis.
gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
Great twitter thread on this subject [0]: "Data out of Israel ... suggests that vaccine-induced myocarditis is caused by the spike protein. In that case, Covid would cause the same condition in the same person -- but more severely, attached to a fully-fledged living virus. To be clear: whoever gets heart inflammation from Moderna would’ve almost certainly got it worse from Covid. The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca." [0]: https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213462816866304?t=PGzdK5_58sPcUHm0GTMtmw&s=08 https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213462816866304?t=P...
- peteradio 5y ago
  How much of the spike proteins from virus are free floating after being injected near capillaries? Spike is supposed to be attached to the virus and break off on entry into cell. It doesn't seem like they are apples to apples in how you'd expect to see them in the body. It doesn't seem like a very rigorous argument at least.
- marcinostefano 5y ago
  Yes, but how about breakthrough infections as You can easily get symptomatic Covid nowadays especially with Omicron, do You have any data on this?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
    Breakthrough infections are much milder. There is mountains of data on this. Look at hospitalization and death rates of vaccinated vs unvaccinated.
disambiguation 5y ago
> Results Among 192 405 448 persons receiving a total of 354 100 845 mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines during the study period, there were 1991 reports of myocarditis to VAERS and 1626 of these reports met the case definition of myocarditis. So.. we're using VAERS now?
- JohnHaugeland 5y ago
  You aren't using anything. The scientists are, in a controlled way. That doesn't mean that it's a regular source. Yes, it's appropriate to use a no-validation report system to search for signal. Vaers is crap, but crap is actually what you want when you're saying "look how ridiculously wide I cast my net looking for examples."
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    Sure, I don't mind leaving it to the scientists. I'm just wondering "out loud" for 2 reasons: 1. "experts" have been relentlessly debunking vaers the past 2 years. This is even discussed in the limitations: "Given the high verification rate of reports of myocarditis to VAERS after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination, underreporting is more likely." 2. This isn't the first analysis of this kind, yet prior reports have emphasized an important distinction not found in the OP: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0 > the increased risk of myocarditis after vaccination was higher in persons aged under 40 years. We estimated extra myocarditis events to be between 1 and 10 per million persons in the month following vaccination, which was substantially lower than the 40 extra events per million persons observed following SARS-CoV-2 infection.
    - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
      > I'm just wondering "out loud" for 2 reasons: because it feels like you're being a valuable skeptic, even though you aren't? because you think "just asking questions," the way scare political news commentators, delivers something positive? because you think the work of scientists should be judged based on the debunking of a source that has nothing to do with the science you're openly questioning? because you've become so comfortable explaining your behavior to people who are openly telling you to your face that it's not appropriate that you don't even hear them saying "this isn't appropriate" anymore? . > prior reports have emphasized an important distinction I took a look at your new link, and I don't see any important distinction being emphasized. THIS IS NOT AN INVITATION FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN. This is me saying "nothing is being emphasized to the point that someone who, unlike you, has domain specific training can even notice it." In reality, you've hyper-focused on some irrelevant detail, and now you're desperately trying to figure out why that irrelevant detail isn't present other places. "Well yes, don't you see? Sure, this paper is about fuel efficiency, but this one doesn't cover kerosene cars, and the other one emphasized an important distinction about kerosene cars" In reality it's likely to be some detail the paper put in to silence a different walrus. Yes, I see that you quoted a random statistical detail about age groups and likelihoods. You want to know why this doesn't matter? Every vaccine you've ever taken has this risk. All of them. We just don't talk about it for the same reason that we don't talk about a seatbelt's risk of causing a broken rib, which can puncture your lung, and kill you. Happens twice a year in this country. Why? Because twice a year is nothing, and we don't want to spend the rest of our lives talking to people who really want to deeply study that twice a year number, as if there's something valuable there. The real issue is you have no statistical intuition, so you don't recognize that you're wasting everyone's time chasing ghosts. The downside, of course, is that STUPID PEOPLE CAN SEE YOU. And they think you're challenging whether the vaccine is a good idea. And no, it really doesn't matter if you say you aren't doing that. Stupid people see scary numbers and they remember what Fox News said, and they end up not taking the vaccine, because with five billion people worldwide having a dose in their arm, their dumb ass is so scared by people like you that they're still going to wait and see. And you, desperate to feel intelligent, will not stop trying to ply these bullshit nonsense numbers, to show everyone else how much you get it. Please stop doing this soon. You're killing stupid people.
alfor 5y ago
Sun exposure to reduce severity of covid (not vitamin D, infrared radiation) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY&t=1003s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY&t=1003s
newbamboo 5y ago
Now we need to see if it’s lower in one of the many nations that train their nurses, correctly, to aspirate the injection.
0x500x79 5y ago
I know this might be a bad analogy, but it was one of the things that went through my mind during all of this as a software engineer: "We have this bug in production which is a Sev-1. We have a possible fix that won't make things worse we can rollout that should make things better." Yes, we have all been here where someone did this and it made things worse, but we also have thousands of people looking at this change and been in situations where this was required. I guess what I'm saying is: The spike protein is in the vaccine and the virus - injecting ourselves with a spike protein to build immunity is likely less impactful than getting the entire virus. If it is truly the spike protein that causes myocarditis, then it causing issues in vaccination is a non-issue. There is a (in my mind high, but we need controlled studies on it) chance that the same people would have gotten myocarditis from Covid. If we can limit the number of other side-effects that people have during the myocarditis then it seems like a win. I am by no means a virologist or an expert in vaccines, just my thought process.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Good I'm glad they were able to share the risk was minimal and line with previous discussions on the matter. I'm sure that Fox News will turn this into a complete fail for medical science and NOT report the comparitive death rate of people who are completely unvaxxed.

65 points by drocer88 5y ago

> To be clear: whoever gets heart inflammation from Moderna would’ve almost certainly got it worse from Covid. The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213480823017472?s=21 https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213480823017472?s=2... Edit : Consider readied the entire Twitter thread. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/myocarditis/13719262 https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/myoc... > It's hard to sift through the mass of information and misinformation that exists about COVID-19. Recently there’s been increased focus on myocarditis and whether COVID-19 vaccines increase the risk of this condition and, if so, is that risk greater or less than the risk if you contract COVID. > To clarify exactly what the situation is Josh Szeps spoke to an expert, Associate Professor Raj Puranik who’s a consultant cardiologist with the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Camperdown and board member and clinical practice advisor with the Cardiac Society of Australia and New Zealand.

mattzito 5y ago
I'm confused by this - the AZ vaccine also expresses the spike protein, just in a different delivery mechanism, right? That was my understanding when I got the AZ vaccine in a trial.
yucky 5y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the FDA still has not approved Moderna beyond emergency use, due to the myocarditis issues. This, in addition to a number of EU countries that have now stopped giving Moderna to males under 30 for the same reason.
legitster 5y ago
We're likely not seeing myocarditis in AZ shots because it's a very long tail event and the AZ represent an order of magnitude smaller sample size.
nicoburns 5y ago
> That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. Does the AstraZeneca vaccine not include the spike protein? I thought it included the whole virus including the spike protein.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  It should also produce the spike protein I believe, it's just that the triggers for cells to produce it are within an adenovirus, not mrna inside lipids. So I'm not sure what this guy is on about.
- mattzito 5y ago
  I posted a similar comment, but it's not the same - AZ uses a modified non-Covid virus that has been engineered to model the spike protein. I'm not sure why that spike protein is different than the MRNA, other than being attached to a virus.
  - basch 5y ago
    The spike is not attached to the virus, it's produced by the virus. In both the mrna and viral vector vaccines, the mrna and virus are the DELIVERY mechanism of the payload.
    - MockObject 5y ago
      Spike proteins are found on the surface of the virus particles. They aren't released by the virus as some sort of pollutant.
      - basch 5y ago
        The instructions for producing the spike protein are released by the virus. Your body produces the spike protein, just like with an mrna vaccine. The difference between the vaccines is the delivery method of the instructions (spike recipes.) https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/different-types-of-covid-19-vaccines/art-20506465 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i... "In this type of vaccine, genetic material from the COVID-19 virus is placed in a modified version of a different virus (viral vector). When the viral vector gets into your cells, it delivers genetic material from the COVID-19 virus that gives your cells instructions to make copies of the S protein. Once your cells display the S proteins on their surfaces, your immune system responds by creating antibodies and defensive white blood cells." https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid-19-vaccines-heres-how-they-work https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/there-are-four-types-covid... "Viral vector vaccines also work by giving cells genetic instructions to produce antigens. But they differ from nucleic acid vaccines in that they use a harmless virus, different from the one the vaccine is targeting, to deliver these instructions into the cell. One type of virus that has often been used as a vector is adenovirus, which causes the common cold. As with nucleic acid vaccines, our own cellular machinery is hijacked to produce the antigen from those instructions, in order to trigger an immune response." https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adenovirus-vaccine https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/how-you-make-adeno... "The adenovirus goes in and does its normal infection route; all that machinery is intact.. But in this case, the DNA payload that's delivered into your cells is not a big set of instructions for making more adenoviruses, it's a much shorter sequence that codes for the coronavirus spike protein instead. So the modified DNA gets transcribed to messenger RNA in your cells (and that's the exact step that the mRNA vaccines jump in at if you take them), and this mRNA is taken up by ribosomes and translated into the Spike protein itself." https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccine-roundup-early-september https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/coronavirus-vaccin... "This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, these proteins will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each viral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it. " The virus pollutes the body with spike protein recipes. There are absolutely not spike proteins on the surface of the vector virus.
goalieca 5y ago
Well his blue check says he’s a journalist. I do wonder if the delivery is different. Wild covid is caught in the respiratory tract while vaccine is injected in the muscle. Any medically savvy people can comment on this pseudoscientific drivel?
licnep 5y ago
>In viral vector vaccines (AstraZeneca, Sputnik, Johnson & Johnson) the gene for the spike protein is introduced into an adenovirus. Following vaccination, the modified adenovirus will infect cells of the host, which will subsequently start to produce the spike protein So if there is a difference in the incidence of myocarditis, it must be for a different reason. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34228411/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34228411/
cuspy 5y ago
To be clear: this is an overconfident assumption, not an evidence-based claim. It's not even plausible on the surface. Why would we assume these proteins would be distributed similarly in the infection case and the vaccination case? We know that very different physiological processes will be taking place, so why assume the inflammatory responses must be the same?
mizzack 5y ago
> The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca. AZ also uses spike, so he's undermining his own argument. Of course the spike is pathogenic. In this case, though, it could be something else like the mRNA strands themselves or the structure of the lipid envelope causing inflammation. There isn't enough evidence either way for this journalist to confidently assert a single cause.
gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
Re: question of why the spike protein from mRNA vaccines shows increased risk of heart inflammation vs AZ vaccine, I listened to the entire interview with Raj Puranik [0], and it's still not clear to me why. He said comparing side-effect profiles of different vaccines is challenging because the dosage and delivery are so different. I.e. mRNA is given over 3 weeks while AZ is given over months. [0]: https://abcmedia.akamaized.net/radio/local_sydney/audio/202201/aau-2022-01-18-myocarditis.mp3 https://abcmedia.akamaized.net/radio/local_sydney/audio/2022...
- nojokes 5y ago
  If it was just reaction to the spike protein then why is myocarditis more likely on the second vaccination? I think it is therefore more likely that adaptive immune system is involved because it has ability to remember. Now is it possible that spike protein itself or lipid shell is causing this based on indicence rate differences between 3 vaccines? Hard to say. The amount of spike protein produced is in correlation with amount of mRNA entering cells. The amount of mRNA entering cells is 3x higher with Moderna vaccine than with Pfizer vaccine and it appears that it is similar on both shots (first and second). But the amount of mRNA (converted from adenovirus DNA) entering cells with the second AZ shot is probably lower than on the first shot because there is also some immunity against the adenovirus and the dose size is the same. This is in correlation with the amount of antibodies produced by these vaccines. This is the not contradicting with the observation so far. But it could be also lipid cell that has been found to cause inflammation. Considering the high amount of antibodies generated on the second vaccination, it is plausible that the lipid shells are not attacked by the immune system directly. But it might be possible that the cells are attacked after lipid shells have merged with their membranes. There are few ways to find how what is most likely happening. First is to hope that protein based vaccine from Novavax will be used by meaningful amount to detect proper incidence rates. When it is spike protein itself then we should see also high incidence rate on second vaccination. The second option is to analyze mixed vaccinations where first vaccination was done with adenovirus vaccine and the second one with mRNA vaccine. It is not perfect setup but it might provide some additional information. Third option is to use a mouse model similar to one in previous study where mouse were intravenously injected with mRNA vaccines. Repeat the study with mRNA vaccine, placebo (saline solution), dummy lipid shells and protein vaccines (might be necessary to do the study without and with the adjuvant).

draw_down 5y ago

> This risk should be considered in the context of the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination. Whoa now, easy on the antivaxxer rhetoric!

JohnHaugeland 5y ago
That's not an antivax thing to say, or rhetoric at all. They're saying "sure, seat belts occasionally break ribs, but consider that in the context of all the windshields you didn't get thrown through"
- castrodd 5y ago
  I think he was using a rhetorical device called sarcasm.
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    Sarcasm is not a rhetorical device, and I don't believe anyone was trying to hurt feelings. If you feel the need to make a joke like that, which is unfunny and makes you look like you don't understand things, you should expect some inbound explanations.
    - draw_down 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- draw_down 5y ago

assbuttbuttass 5y ago

It's important to mention that catching COVID also causes myocarditis https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm Edit: this article says out of 192 405 448 people, 1626 had myocarditis, or about 0.0008%. In contrast, the CDC estimates COVID has a 0.146% chance to give you myocarditis.

cuspy 5y ago
These numbers are not even remotely comparable. The CDC number includes ages groups that are much more likely to have severe infections. The CDC number you cited is also based on hospitalized cases, which select for severity
dazilcher 5y ago
I am fully vaccinated and, as I'm typing this, recovering from COVID. Do tell me more about this vaccine/disease exclusivity. I must be doing something wrong.
mgamache 5y ago
It's also true that VAERS may be underreporting cases.
- zenplant 5y ago
  It's probably true that cases are under reported in both groups. Many people with myocarditis might just go along with their day because the symptoms aren't especially worrisome to them. You can imagine the cohort of people with political affiliations that say COVID isn't worth worrying about might not see a doctor even if the symptoms are worrisome.
- alfor 5y ago
  I hear that a factor of a 100X is common. The system is made so that the least amount of effect are reported. Personally I know someone who had a heart attack 3 day after second dose (60yo female) The doctor dismissed the possibility of a causation by the vaccine, this case is not reported even if the person almost died. Is covid still worse than the vaccine with Omicron, I don’t know, probable. But I know that most side effect are not reported. A crazy thing is that the Myocardis rate can be reduce 3X by a 2 second procedure at vaccination (verifying that the injection is not in a vein)

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scotty79 5y ago

Number of registered cases of myocarditits after vaccination is not very different from baseline, while covid infection increses risk of miocarditis 16 times. I wouldn't be surprised if incresed risk of miocarditis after second dose is completely explained by changes in behavior of people who finally got vaccinated after many monthes of lockdowns. They probably started going out more and exposing themselves to coronavirus which vaccine provides partial protection against. Researchers don't even exclude from this research people who got full blown covid before their miocarditis.

gkfasdfasdf 5y ago

Great twitter thread on this subject [0]: "Data out of Israel ... suggests that vaccine-induced myocarditis is caused by the spike protein. In that case, Covid would cause the same condition in the same person -- but more severely, attached to a fully-fledged living virus. To be clear: whoever gets heart inflammation from Moderna would’ve almost certainly got it worse from Covid. The issue arises from the spike protein itself. That’s why we don’t see myocarditis from non-MRNA vaccines like Astra Zeneca." [0]: https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213462816866304?t=PGzdK5_58sPcUHm0GTMtmw&s=08 https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/1486213462816866304?t=P...

peteradio 5y ago
How much of the spike proteins from virus are free floating after being injected near capillaries? Spike is supposed to be attached to the virus and break off on entry into cell. It doesn't seem like they are apples to apples in how you'd expect to see them in the body. It doesn't seem like a very rigorous argument at least.
marcinostefano 5y ago
Yes, but how about breakthrough infections as You can easily get symptomatic Covid nowadays especially with Omicron, do You have any data on this?
- deleted 5y ago
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- gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
  Breakthrough infections are much milder. There is mountains of data on this. Look at hospitalization and death rates of vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

disambiguation 5y ago

> Results Among 192 405 448 persons receiving a total of 354 100 845 mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines during the study period, there were 1991 reports of myocarditis to VAERS and 1626 of these reports met the case definition of myocarditis. So.. we're using VAERS now?

JohnHaugeland 5y ago
You aren't using anything. The scientists are, in a controlled way. That doesn't mean that it's a regular source. Yes, it's appropriate to use a no-validation report system to search for signal. Vaers is crap, but crap is actually what you want when you're saying "look how ridiculously wide I cast my net looking for examples."
- disambiguation 5y ago
  Sure, I don't mind leaving it to the scientists. I'm just wondering "out loud" for 2 reasons: 1. "experts" have been relentlessly debunking vaers the past 2 years. This is even discussed in the limitations: "Given the high verification rate of reports of myocarditis to VAERS after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination, underreporting is more likely." 2. This isn't the first analysis of this kind, yet prior reports have emphasized an important distinction not found in the OP: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0 > the increased risk of myocarditis after vaccination was higher in persons aged under 40 years. We estimated extra myocarditis events to be between 1 and 10 per million persons in the month following vaccination, which was substantially lower than the 40 extra events per million persons observed following SARS-CoV-2 infection.
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    > I'm just wondering "out loud" for 2 reasons: because it feels like you're being a valuable skeptic, even though you aren't? because you think "just asking questions," the way scare political news commentators, delivers something positive? because you think the work of scientists should be judged based on the debunking of a source that has nothing to do with the science you're openly questioning? because you've become so comfortable explaining your behavior to people who are openly telling you to your face that it's not appropriate that you don't even hear them saying "this isn't appropriate" anymore? . > prior reports have emphasized an important distinction I took a look at your new link, and I don't see any important distinction being emphasized. THIS IS NOT AN INVITATION FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN. This is me saying "nothing is being emphasized to the point that someone who, unlike you, has domain specific training can even notice it." In reality, you've hyper-focused on some irrelevant detail, and now you're desperately trying to figure out why that irrelevant detail isn't present other places. "Well yes, don't you see? Sure, this paper is about fuel efficiency, but this one doesn't cover kerosene cars, and the other one emphasized an important distinction about kerosene cars" In reality it's likely to be some detail the paper put in to silence a different walrus. Yes, I see that you quoted a random statistical detail about age groups and likelihoods. You want to know why this doesn't matter? Every vaccine you've ever taken has this risk. All of them. We just don't talk about it for the same reason that we don't talk about a seatbelt's risk of causing a broken rib, which can puncture your lung, and kill you. Happens twice a year in this country. Why? Because twice a year is nothing, and we don't want to spend the rest of our lives talking to people who really want to deeply study that twice a year number, as if there's something valuable there. The real issue is you have no statistical intuition, so you don't recognize that you're wasting everyone's time chasing ghosts. The downside, of course, is that STUPID PEOPLE CAN SEE YOU. And they think you're challenging whether the vaccine is a good idea. And no, it really doesn't matter if you say you aren't doing that. Stupid people see scary numbers and they remember what Fox News said, and they end up not taking the vaccine, because with five billion people worldwide having a dose in their arm, their dumb ass is so scared by people like you that they're still going to wait and see. And you, desperate to feel intelligent, will not stop trying to ply these bullshit nonsense numbers, to show everyone else how much you get it. Please stop doing this soon. You're killing stupid people.

alfor 5y ago

Sun exposure to reduce severity of covid (not vitamin D, infrared radiation) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY&t=1003s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo4SJopcY&t=1003s

newbamboo 5y ago

Now we need to see if it’s lower in one of the many nations that train their nurses, correctly, to aspirate the injection.

0x500x79 5y ago

I know this might be a bad analogy, but it was one of the things that went through my mind during all of this as a software engineer: "We have this bug in production which is a Sev-1. We have a possible fix that won't make things worse we can rollout that should make things better." Yes, we have all been here where someone did this and it made things worse, but we also have thousands of people looking at this change and been in situations where this was required. I guess what I'm saying is: The spike protein is in the vaccine and the virus - injecting ourselves with a spike protein to build immunity is likely less impactful than getting the entire virus. If it is truly the spike protein that causes myocarditis, then it causing issues in vaccination is a non-issue. There is a (in my mind high, but we need controlled studies on it) chance that the same people would have gotten myocarditis from Covid. If we can limit the number of other side-effects that people have during the myocarditis then it seems like a win. I am by no means a virologist or an expert in vaccines, just my thought process.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Good I'm glad they were able to share the risk was minimal and line with previous discussions on the matter. I'm sure that Fox News will turn this into a complete fail for medical science and NOT report the comparitive death rate of people who are completely unvaxxed.