6 ms·

I haven't seen any serious attempt to address the concerns with the "vaccines". Only ostracism and censorship. Plus a healthy dose of disinformation about the

I haven't seen any serious attempt to address the concerns with the "vaccines". Only ostracism and censorship. Plus a healthy dose of disinformation about the safety and efficacy profiles of these therapies. If the science is so clear, why not give an anti vaxxer a huge prime time platform and embarrass them in debate?

JaimeThompson 5y ago
Which concerns do you have?
- vibrato2 5y ago
  With these specific therapies: 1) Myocarditis (long term heart damage) 2) general inflammation and clot risk 3) long term risks of brand new mRNA technology For myself and other young athletes, my research leads me to understand that the vaccine is higher risk than the infection. My greatest concern is the totalitarianism behind vaccine passports. At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    > For myself and other young athletes, my research leads me to understand that the vaccine is higher risk than the infection. As someone with a pre-existing heart condition I'd like to read that research. Do you have any links?
  - rwcarlsen 5y ago
    You are not alone. The authoritarian threat and government overreach problems are IMO orders of magnitude more important and concerning than the virus. I will almost certainly be taking a stand and be terminated by my employer over this within the next few weeks.
  - suzzer99 5y ago
    Here's a good study about the risk of myocarditis (it's very low). https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 There's a lot of misleading information out there about myocarditis that makes the risk sound much worse than it is. Yes adverse myocarditis reaction is a risk. But it's something like 1 in 17,000. 1 in 500 Americans have died from covid. Even if you're young and healthy, we have no idea the long term risks of contracting a serious case of covid. You have to factor that into the risk equation.
    - spectramax 5y ago
      > But it's something like 1 in 17,000. 1 in 500 Americans have died from covid. This is true but misleading. You need to account for age as the primary factor that determines the risk exposure. Edit: Surprised that someone downvoted this. Care you explain what you disagree here? I am simply pointing out that it is not straight forward to compare risk levels because they are highly dependent on age.
      - mcguire 5y ago
        Here's a simple chart of relative risk by age group: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi... There are roughly 53,300,000 people aged 18-29 and ~3400 deaths (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-...), which works out to 1 in 16,000. Of course, you say, that's assuming all 18-29 year-olds have had COVID, which is wrong. There's only been 7,400,000 cases among that age group (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-of-covid-cases-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-...), giving a 1 in 2200 risk.
    - JuliusPullo 5y ago
      Then again, those 1/500 are old age or with existing debilitating health conditions. The rest of the people have a close to zero chance of dying from Covid. It is not a great idea to expose them to that 1/17000 chance of getting an unnecessary heart condition that will affect them for life. And remember, myocarditis and blood clot issues are secondary effects we know about now. The vaccine was invented and released very recently and there is no way to know the long term effects. And don't forget, this vaccine works with a brand-new genetic technology never before released to the public.
  - goldenbikeshed 5y ago
    Regarding 2): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34237049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34237049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34473684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34473684/
  - praxulus 5y ago
    The risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 itself seems to be greater than the risk of getting it from a vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm >At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand vaccine skeptics.
    - xallarap 5y ago
      Cure covid and vaccine against cancer. Makes more Sense.
    - chefkoch 5y ago
      I don't think he knows how it is to have cancer.
      - vibrato2 5y ago
        I know I'd prefer it to living under tyranny. Liberty or Death.
        praxulus 5y ago
        Refusing to do something purely because somebody is trying to make you do it still means you're letting other people control your actions. That's not liberty either.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    "...totalitarianism behind vaccine passports..." Problem: An ongoing pandemic, requiring greater or lesser levels of isolation. Solution: A vaccine. Vaccinated individuals are much less likely to suffer the ill effects of the disease and to transmit the disease. Isolation is no longer necessary. Problem: Large portions of the population refuse to take the vaccine. Isolation is still required for this portion. Solution: Allow those who have been vaccinated freedom from isolation. Problem: TOTALITARIANISM!
    - effie 5y ago
      You assume the policy of pushing vaccination is sound, so the methods of its implementation are not totalitarian or it isn't a concern. But even if it was a sound policy from the standpoint of the state, the methods employed (censorship of communications on COVID and vaccines, restricting freedoms of unvaccinated) is still a totalitarian method.
      - mcguire 5y ago
        "restricting freedoms of unvaccinated" No shirt, no shoes, no service. TOTALITARIANISM!!!
        vibrato2 5y ago
        Clothing is not permanent. Injections are.
        mike741 5y ago
        taking drugs is not the same as wearing clothes
  - _moof 5y ago
    > At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed. And there it is. For you at least, this has nothing to do with evidence, or facts, or information, or patience or empathy or reasoning or sound medical judgment or anything else, it's just plain stubbornness that's so out of control you're willing to die rather than do something someone else told you to do. Look, I get it. I hate being told what to do. But at least be honest with yourself that that's what's going on, and that all your talk of side effects and whatnot is a smokescreen.
ookblah 5y ago
Why not give a flat earther a huge prime time platform? I mean that in of itself proves nothing. There have been many attempts and even in my own circles and in the end the it has nothing to do with the facts and all about fear and badly calculating risk. I can understand the mentality if you're hesitant of the vaccines being new and want to wait, but just understand that the current data shows you're taking a higher risk by not taking it. Your choice in the end, though. People who are full anti-vax are a different thing altogether.
- musingsole 5y ago
  > Why not give a flat earther a huge prime time platform? They did. It happened, and the dude died in the rocket as it crashed to Earth. And following that, I stopped hearing so many murmurs about if a lake surface was flat or convex.
  - bena 5y ago
    He died last year. He also had successful launches previously. And those didn't halt anything. The world, collectively, has been a bit busy with other stuff since last year. If anything COVID conspiracy stuff has pushed out all other conspiracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil)
    - musingsole 5y ago
      > If anything COVID conspiracy stuff has pushed out all other conspiracies. Conjecture is as conjecture does
      - bena 5y ago
        As opposed to generalizing from self doing as it does? You didn't see it so it must not exist?
unethical_ban 5y ago
Dozens of books have been written documenting the absolute, unmitigated travesty of the Trump administration. 70 million people still voted for him, and a majority of those did so as a positive review of his performance! I'm not sure what to do, but I know now that "mountains of evidence" does not stop alluring stupidity.
- Nemrod67 5y ago
  https://youtu.be/lw2BVI9OhC4 https://youtu.be/lw2BVI9OhC4
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    Useless.
depaya 5y ago
It's not possible to embarrass someone with no shame. It's easy to lie and debate dishonestly[1]. Engaging in such a debate would only legitimize a position that may have no legitimacy to begin with. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
criddell 5y ago
> If the science is so clear, why not give an anti vaxxer a huge prime time platform and embarrass them in debate? That doesn't work. It didn't work for climate change and it won't work for vaccines.
krageon 5y ago
> If the science is so clear, why not give an anti vaxxer a huge prime time platform and embarrass them in debate? Neonazis clamor that they need a platform all the time. Now that we can see what that's like (the US, in case it is not clear) we can see that this is a terrible idea.
mcguire 5y ago
Pro tip: if you declare any and all "serious attempts to address the concerns" as "disinformation", then the only thing left is ostracism and censorship. BTW, ever heard of Duane Gish?
- vibrato2 5y ago
  Pro tip: If you make a strawman argument, the only thing illustrated is masturbation. And No. never heard of him.

JaimeThompson 5y ago

Which concerns do you have?

vibrato2 5y ago
With these specific therapies: 1) Myocarditis (long term heart damage) 2) general inflammation and clot risk 3) long term risks of brand new mRNA technology For myself and other young athletes, my research leads me to understand that the vaccine is higher risk than the infection. My greatest concern is the totalitarianism behind vaccine passports. At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  > For myself and other young athletes, my research leads me to understand that the vaccine is higher risk than the infection. As someone with a pre-existing heart condition I'd like to read that research. Do you have any links?
- rwcarlsen 5y ago
  You are not alone. The authoritarian threat and government overreach problems are IMO orders of magnitude more important and concerning than the virus. I will almost certainly be taking a stand and be terminated by my employer over this within the next few weeks.
- suzzer99 5y ago
  Here's a good study about the risk of myocarditis (it's very low). https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 There's a lot of misleading information out there about myocarditis that makes the risk sound much worse than it is. Yes adverse myocarditis reaction is a risk. But it's something like 1 in 17,000. 1 in 500 Americans have died from covid. Even if you're young and healthy, we have no idea the long term risks of contracting a serious case of covid. You have to factor that into the risk equation.
  - spectramax 5y ago
    > But it's something like 1 in 17,000. 1 in 500 Americans have died from covid. This is true but misleading. You need to account for age as the primary factor that determines the risk exposure. Edit: Surprised that someone downvoted this. Care you explain what you disagree here? I am simply pointing out that it is not straight forward to compare risk levels because they are highly dependent on age.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      Here's a simple chart of relative risk by age group: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi... There are roughly 53,300,000 people aged 18-29 and ~3400 deaths (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-...), which works out to 1 in 16,000. Of course, you say, that's assuming all 18-29 year-olds have had COVID, which is wrong. There's only been 7,400,000 cases among that age group (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-of-covid-cases-by-age-group/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-...), giving a 1 in 2200 risk.
  - JuliusPullo 5y ago
    Then again, those 1/500 are old age or with existing debilitating health conditions. The rest of the people have a close to zero chance of dying from Covid. It is not a great idea to expose them to that 1/17000 chance of getting an unnecessary heart condition that will affect them for life. And remember, myocarditis and blood clot issues are secondary effects we know about now. The vaccine was invented and released very recently and there is no way to know the long term effects. And don't forget, this vaccine works with a brand-new genetic technology never before released to the public.
- goldenbikeshed 5y ago
  Regarding 2): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34237049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34237049/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34473684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34473684/
- praxulus 5y ago
  The risk of Myocarditis from COVID-19 itself seems to be greater than the risk of getting it from a vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm >At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand vaccine skeptics.
  - xallarap 5y ago
    Cure covid and vaccine against cancer. Makes more Sense.
  - chefkoch 5y ago
    I don't think he knows how it is to have cancer.
    - vibrato2 5y ago
      I know I'd prefer it to living under tyranny. Liberty or Death.
      - praxulus 5y ago
        Refusing to do something purely because somebody is trying to make you do it still means you're letting other people control your actions. That's not liberty either.
- mcguire 5y ago
  "...totalitarianism behind vaccine passports..." Problem: An ongoing pandemic, requiring greater or lesser levels of isolation. Solution: A vaccine. Vaccinated individuals are much less likely to suffer the ill effects of the disease and to transmit the disease. Isolation is no longer necessary. Problem: Large portions of the population refuse to take the vaccine. Isolation is still required for this portion. Solution: Allow those who have been vaccinated freedom from isolation. Problem: TOTALITARIANISM!
  - effie 5y ago
    You assume the policy of pushing vaccination is sound, so the methods of its implementation are not totalitarian or it isn't a concern. But even if it was a sound policy from the standpoint of the state, the methods employed (censorship of communications on COVID and vaccines, restricting freedoms of unvaccinated) is still a totalitarian method.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      "restricting freedoms of unvaccinated" No shirt, no shoes, no service. TOTALITARIANISM!!!
      - vibrato2 5y ago
        Clothing is not permanent. Injections are.
      - mike741 5y ago
        taking drugs is not the same as wearing clothes
- _moof 5y ago
  > At this point even if the shot cured cancer I wouldn't take it because of how it's pushed. And there it is. For you at least, this has nothing to do with evidence, or facts, or information, or patience or empathy or reasoning or sound medical judgment or anything else, it's just plain stubbornness that's so out of control you're willing to die rather than do something someone else told you to do. Look, I get it. I hate being told what to do. But at least be honest with yourself that that's what's going on, and that all your talk of side effects and whatnot is a smokescreen.

ookblah 5y ago

Why not give a flat earther a huge prime time platform? I mean that in of itself proves nothing. There have been many attempts and even in my own circles and in the end the it has nothing to do with the facts and all about fear and badly calculating risk. I can understand the mentality if you're hesitant of the vaccines being new and want to wait, but just understand that the current data shows you're taking a higher risk by not taking it. Your choice in the end, though. People who are full anti-vax are a different thing altogether.

musingsole 5y ago
> Why not give a flat earther a huge prime time platform? They did. It happened, and the dude died in the rocket as it crashed to Earth. And following that, I stopped hearing so many murmurs about if a lake surface was flat or convex.
- bena 5y ago
  He died last year. He also had successful launches previously. And those didn't halt anything. The world, collectively, has been a bit busy with other stuff since last year. If anything COVID conspiracy stuff has pushed out all other conspiracies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil)
  - musingsole 5y ago
    > If anything COVID conspiracy stuff has pushed out all other conspiracies. Conjecture is as conjecture does
    - bena 5y ago
      As opposed to generalizing from self doing as it does? You didn't see it so it must not exist?

unethical_ban 5y ago

Dozens of books have been written documenting the absolute, unmitigated travesty of the Trump administration. 70 million people still voted for him, and a majority of those did so as a positive review of his performance! I'm not sure what to do, but I know now that "mountains of evidence" does not stop alluring stupidity.

Nemrod67 5y ago
https://youtu.be/lw2BVI9OhC4 https://youtu.be/lw2BVI9OhC4
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  Useless.

depaya 5y ago

It's not possible to embarrass someone with no shame. It's easy to lie and debate dishonestly[1]. Engaging in such a debate would only legitimize a position that may have no legitimacy to begin with. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

criddell 5y ago

> If the science is so clear, why not give an anti vaxxer a huge prime time platform and embarrass them in debate? That doesn't work. It didn't work for climate change and it won't work for vaccines.

krageon 5y ago

> If the science is so clear, why not give an anti vaxxer a huge prime time platform and embarrass them in debate? Neonazis clamor that they need a platform all the time. Now that we can see what that's like (the US, in case it is not clear) we can see that this is a terrible idea.

mcguire 5y ago

Pro tip: if you declare any and all "serious attempts to address the concerns" as "disinformation", then the only thing left is ostracism and censorship. BTW, ever heard of Duane Gish?

vibrato2 5y ago
Pro tip: If you make a strawman argument, the only thing illustrated is masturbation. And No. never heard of him.