8 ms·

Though I applaud the effort to get age right and protect players, I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable having me or my child scan our photo ID and selfie to up

• toomuchtodo 5y ago
  A component of my work is in digital identity, so I hope you don’t mind the question: what would make you comfortable doing so? For Roblox, I can see the exception taken, but some applications do require this level of identity proofing (scanning your passport in an airline mobile app to book an international flight comes to mind). Edit: Thank you everyone for your feedback, it’s very helpful!
  • TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Generally I would be comfortable showing my ID to either an established bank or the government which issued the ID. And airport security. Otherwise if a private company wants me to upload my ID I would probably avoid using their service.
    • Spivak 5y ago
      Or a bar? Ya know, to verify your age.
      • loonster 5y ago
        I dont drink ay places that need to scan my ID and keep a record of it.
        • Spivak 5y ago
          You've never been to a bar that swipes the mag strip on your ID? Or the many doctor's offices that take scans of your ID with your insurance card? I'm totally on board with ID cards not having your address on them because of the stalking potential but it's an ID card, if it has to be secret for it for it to be useful it's a really shitty form of identification.
          • loonster 5y ago
            No I've never been to a bar that swiped my ID. The bar does not need to know who I am.
  • gruez 5y ago
    >but some applications do require this level of identity proofing (scanning your passport in an airline mobile app to book an international flight comes to mind). I never had to do this when booking a flight. The max I had to do was provide my personal info (name, birthday, passport number). If they asked for a passport scan and a selfie I would have noped out.
    • legerdemain 5y ago
      Kayak asks for ID photos, even for domestic flights.
      • Someone1234 5y ago
        But the underlying airlines don't, so just find the flights on Kayak then book direct bypassing this invasive measure.
      • xyzzy21 5y ago
        Never used Kayak but thanks for the tip: I NEVER will use Kayak!
  • michaelt 5y ago
    Putting photos of my ID documents online just seems like an incredibly bad move for my security and privacy. The only time I'd even consider sharing photos of my ID documents over the internet is if I'm sharing them with an organisation I have a multi-year high-trust relationship with (like my e-mail provider of 20 years). And even then, I'd prefer not to if I can avoid it.
    • TedShiller 5y ago
      Government agencies only.
      • jmkd 5y ago
        While I trust my Government to issue me a passport (what else can I do), I can't say I trust all their agencies to securely store an image of it.
  • cinntaile 5y ago
    Built-in watermark support. When the system eventually gets hacked and the pictures end up in the hands of hackers, their use will be limited due to a "COMPANY + DATE" watermark plastered all over.
    • LegitShady 5y ago
      the company will either go out of business as people claim costs associated with the breach, or you would get a $10 settlement from a class action. The watermark isn't worth anything, and doesn't add any trust.
      • cinntaile 5y ago
        Reality disagrees with your theory though. Most companies that get their data breached are still in business and class action lawsuits aren't even a thing in most countries in the world (maybe the US is the only country that has that?). The watermark is an extra threshold. It's like an extra bike lock, they'll get the bike with only one lock instead.
      • MiddleEndian 5y ago
        >the company will either go out of business as people claim costs associated with the breach This is the desired behavior.
  • scohesc 5y ago
    (I think) I feel like I'd be similar in opinion about this with the OP, so hopefully you don't mind me putting my thoughts here! The main issue that I have is that it's down to a matter of trust. I'm mainly using the article on Roblox as an example for my thoughts here, but I'm sure it could be easily translated to other services/companies doing digital ID verification. I don't like digital identity verification at all however I am open to other options. I have no trust in these identity verification companies using my ID for the sole purpose they say it will be used for. I have no idea if they're holding onto the ID and using it for training their algorithms, or if they sell it to a data collection agency, or if they etc. etc. etc. - why do I need to read a 10+ page privacy policy document to figure that out? For a company like Roblox - I don't see why they couldn't roll out their own system for digital verification. Yes, you'd have an absolutely massive influx of users at this point since they seem to _just now_ be adding age verification, but after a month or two - barring special events/promos in game - I'm sure an ID Verification department could be handed out to a few people. That being said - I'm not considering any issues in other aspects like Legal issues, Privacy issues, data retention issues, number of users, numerous ID types etc. etc. etc. and I'm sure those are HUGE factors as to why people aren't "rolling their own" solution.
  • alex_c 5y ago
    Nothing would make me comfortable doing so, any more than sharing my bank credentials with a 3rd party for example. The only question is whether the benefit or necessity of doing so outweighs my discomfort. I think the discomfort is a good thing here.
  • donmcronald 5y ago
    I did it for a crypto exchange, but that was for KYC / AML verification and I intentionally chose an exchange that's regulated by my country's KYC/AML regulator, so I was expecting to have to do it. Giving up that much PII for a game is insane. I'd uninstall it without even thinking. Any industry that's not regulated to require photo ID when they're asking for it doesn't need to ask for it.
  • fouric 5y ago
    Not OP, but: If at all possible, I would want a hard guarantee that my photo ID and all derived information (e.g. my real name (as in the case of Roblox, they don't care about your identity, just your age)) would be completely deleted as soon as possible, as well as a description of exactly when that would be (e.g. "we have to contact your federal government to verify the authenticity of this ID, and then ensure that they know that we've verified your user account, and then we'll delete everything immediately - this typically take 4-8 business days, and we'll email you when the process is completed"). Regardless of the above, I would require that no personal information linked to my ID would be used for any purpose (analytics, marketing, ads, or sale/transfer to a third party) except identity verification.
    • Avicebron 5y ago
      Unfortunately it seems like "hard guarantee" for most things in tech is almost laughable, and if there is a chance data can be gathered, probably not even worth dreaming about
      • Someone1234 5y ago
        Indeed. Plus even if they "hard guarantee" it at service launch they could and likely would quietly change it after the press has moved on, with a TOS update on line 194,404,4008 that nobody will read.
      • xyzzy21 5y ago
        Which is why "Asking" is an AUTOMATIC "delete the app" or "cancel the web account" or similar. We weren't born yesterday. :-)
  • Symbiote 5y ago
    In Britain they proposed an anonymous system for checking age before viewing pornography. (It was cancelled.) The idea was you could show your ID to someone qualified to check (like a shop selling alcohol), they'd give some sort of pass, and that could be used to access the website. I wouldn't mind that, so long at the shop person only looks at the ID. (And I've never been asked to scan a passport when booking a flight.)
  • joe_the_user 5y ago
    Some applications do require this level of identity proofing (scanning your passport in an airline mobile app to book an international flight comes to mind). I don't know about presently but historically, you didn't need a passport to buy an international ticket. You needed a passport to get on the plane at the airport. So if you buy a ticket in a fake name, it's your problem if you can't fly and tickets aren't refundable for this. Which is to say that no app space comes to mind when I think of something that needs id scanning - or the only apps like this are extensions of state control to the virtual space (virtual parole hearings or whatever). Basically, anything that isn't the state should use it's own fricking account system to relate to people online. And the state itself is kind of iffy.
  • xyzzy21 5y ago
    Not OP but there is NO SITUATION where I'd EVER do this for a web site. There are NONE I trust enough for that kind of information and NO web site offers sufficient value to even consider the risk.
  • syshum 5y ago
    >>scanning your passport in an airline mobile app to book an international flight comes to mind Why? Proof of ID would be required at boarding time, and by Security who simply verify the supplied info matches the actual ID, but does not actually scan and store the document (nor should they) I am unclear what in a booking process would require a person to scan in your passport to book the travel? How would this work if I am a corporate booker needing to book flights for others, do I need to maintain a copy of their ID's? Your example is pretty flawed, as is most examples you will come up with because in reality there is no reason to have to upload your ID. It is draconian and should be resisted by everyone for any purpose
  • shkkmo 5y ago
    This level of identity proof isn't that secure. If we absolutely need to have software that has this level of identity, then we need to build infrastructure to support it. That infrastructure already exists to some degree as notaries and could be expanded and modernized to allow privacy preserving identity verification.
  • LegitShady 5y ago
    I don't ever want to provide a storable version of my ID to you. I don't trust you or anyone else to keep it safe. I would expect my identity to compromised over and over as companies get breached.
  • nobody9999 5y ago
    >scanning your passport in an airline mobile app to book an international flight comes to mind I'm curious as to why this might be necessary. Whenever I've traveled internationally, while I've had to provide the airline with a bunch of info when booking my flight, I've never had to provide a scanned version of my passport. Rather, when I arrive at my destination (at both ends) I need to show the nice customs folks my passport. Which airlines require providing them with a scan of a passport to book a flight? I ask so that I can make sure never to use those airlines. Thanks!
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  • cybernautique 5y ago
    Absolutely nothing. "Digital" identities should be exactly that. I will never be comfortable identifying myself beyond my activity. If you require more data, then your services aren't for me, unless you're a municipal provider.
• _jal 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't do this. If your service demands my ID, I'll close my account. If you have KYC requirements, I'll meet you in person or find a different vendor.
  • LegitShady 5y ago
    This happened to me with twitter. made an account, followed some people, they locked the account and told me it exhibited bot like behaviour and I needed to scan some photo id to send to them for them to unlock it. Never worried about twitter ever again. Probably the healthier choice in the long run.
  • gruez 5y ago
    >If you have KYC requirements, I'll meet you in person or find a different vendor. that's literally not an option when it comes to crypto exchanges.
    • drsnow 5y ago
      localbitcoins exists
      • ajkdhcb2 5y ago
        Funnily enough, localbitcoins has required KYC for some time, and even prohibited face-to-face cash trades. However there are alternatives such a localmonero and localcryptos so you are correct in concept.
      • gruez 5y ago
        That's only really comparable if you're exchanging a few hundred dollars worth of crypto. What if you need to exchange several thousand? The spreads are going to be terrible, as would be counter-party risk. Timing would also be an issue, which is important if you're trying to trade (as opposed to HODLing).
        • ajkdhcb2 5y ago
• pvg 5y ago
  I don't think I'd be comfortable with this either, certainly not to play some game. On the other hand, the bizarre problems maintainers of online communities have to deal with are just wild and worth keeping in mind as context: https://www.wired.com/story/roblox-online-games-irl-fascism-roman-empire/ https://www.wired.com/story/roblox-online-games-irl-fascism-...
• TameAntelope 5y ago
  To be fair, it's not part of their login flow, it's part of their verification flow. It's a one-time thing, not an every-login thing. I also see no problem with this. What could they realistically use this information for that would be nefarious? It doesn't actually store the ID in any real sense, as they explain in the link, and I see no reason for them to lie about that. It's real easy to scream, "But My Privacy!!!", and probably a decent amount more difficult to come up with an actual and practical risk there. Honestly, if your threat model includes "video game companies that lie about age verification systems", I don't think you're taking your security very seriously.
  • modzu 5y ago
    one risk is the inevitable data leak and having these documents for sale on a darkweb market. how exactly is the ID anonymized? who knows?
    • MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      In the Netherlands we have a government app that blacks out the sensitive stuff called kopieID. Honestly if you are going to ask for identification ask for a passport or driver's license not this idiocy of credit cards and bank statements. That's just insulting my intelligence.
    • TameAntelope 5y ago
      The documentation says anonymized "value" is generated, so likely some kind of hash. I don't think these are able to be stolen in any meaningful sense, based on how they describe their tech stack.
• deleted 5y ago
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• unclebucknasty 5y ago
  The worst are those that let you get invested and only then spring these requirements on you. NBA Top Shot comes to mind. They allow you to buy with no problem. But, to sell on their platform you have to go through what is essentially a KYC check. Your investment is sunk otherwise.
  • Spivak 5y ago
    I think people on HN underestimate how easy it is to accidentally build a money laundering system —- which NBA Top Shot did and now has to correct with KYC checks.
    • unclebucknasty 5y ago
      >I think people on HN underestimate how easy it is to accidentally build a money laundering system, which NBA Top Shot did and now has to correct with KYC checks Oh, I understand the "why", but seems to me NBA Top Shot is the one that underestimated how easy it is to build a money laundering system. And, suddenly requiring KYC checks of all users--irrespective of amounts involved and without an option for refunds--isn't the most customer-friendly way to "correct" their oversight.
• nomel 5y ago
  My full name, physical address, and IP address were leaked with another game my kids play. I'm excited for my drivers license and picture to be leaked as well.
• tialaramex 5y ago
  I would much prefer my government to take on responsibility for providing this sort of service as they do e.g. driver qualification. Once upon a time the usual thing to get OK'd to rent a van (e.g. for students who are moving house) is you rock up to the rental place with the legal documents showing you're entitled to drive. You're relying on the fact that the person renting you a van doesn't much care and isn't keeping the exact details from those documents. But although you can do this today, obviously the documents get scanned into a permanent data repository, so, that's not great. But, the UK government added a site so you can prove you're you, and get codes, which for a limited period show someone that yup, this person is legal to drive and so on. They do this for right to work too. Although, annoyingly only for foreigners. If you're a citizen, you can't prove right to work this way, you need to be like "Look, I'm a citizen, here's proof" to your employer. But if you are foreign you can just go "Check this URL, your government says I'm entitled to work here" and they needn't know whether that's because your husband is a "Cultural Attaché" to the Russian Embassy, or you've got special refugee status, or you're actually an Italian and you just speak and look Russian for some reason, just that you're entitled to work here.
  • LegitShady 5y ago
    I'd rather not subsidize roblox with government systems. If they can't figure out an age verification system that works thats on them. The government shouldn't be verifying the age of people for businesses. It's a waste of tax dollars to subsidize a business with major profits.
    • wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Roblox has an age verification system that works. It's just not good for the public. Isn't that what governments are for?
      • LegitShady 5y ago
        No. If its not good for the public, then either don't use it, or pass legislation to ban it. subsidizing a business because they can't do it is wasting tax money for a video game.
• president 5y ago
  This is why people are afraid of vaccination ID/passports.