11 ms·

Revolt of the Delivery Workers

204 points by fourmii 5y ago

clydethefrog 5y ago
Paraphrasing an observation I heard in a podcast some weeks ago: We were promised little robot butlers in the scifi we read as kids, but what we got was human servants that act like robots.
- danuker 5y ago
  I suppose a step towards automating the jobs is to break them down into manageable, replaceable pieces. For example, there have appeared automated boxes for recipients to pick up packages.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    > For example, there have appeared automated boxes for recipients to pick up packages. You mean a mail box?
    - guntars 5y ago
      Yeah, like a mail box, but you have one at multiple addresses in most cities.
    - ThePadawan 5y ago
      (I cannot tell if you're being sarcastic or genuine). Yes, except (before COVID) if you were at work, and the mail carrier tried to deliver a package to your house unsuccessfully, they would take it with them again. Or they would leave it outside the house, where it could be stolen. Then, starting the next day, you could go to the nearest pickup site (and depending on the carrier, this either means the post office, which might be a 20min walk, or a completely-out-of-town parcel distribution site, which could be a 1h15 train ride [based on my own location]) to get it. There, you would take a number, and wait in line up to 15 minutes (because all working people would be there at that time of day). The alternative is an automated postal box, which does not need an employee to operate it. It's just a huge wall of lockers with a central terminal. When you receive a package there, you get an electronic unlock code to unlock exactly that 1 locker with your package in it. These postal boxes can be installed anywhere where spare space is available. Maybe that's platform 5 at your nearest train station, or outside the pharmacy in town. At least it's closer to your home, and open 24/7.
      - pjc50 5y ago
        Parcel delivery is such a classic principal-agent problem; the customer contracts with a seller, who then subcontracts with a delivery company. But because there's layers in the middle the delivery companies can't compete on actual customer satisfaction, just on being cheap for the vendors.
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        I do my best to tell sellers this. I recently tried to find out where to buy a new mattress online. Usually I get them IKEA and that's fine, but their shipping is so expensive, it's generally only worth it if you boy a whole lot of large items at once. I talked to the customer repo of another shop to inquire what vendor they used for shipping and what would happen if I wasn't home - and they told me they used DPD. Turns out that DPD's "we missed you" service is "you have to go to our distribution center to pick up your package". As mentioned above, that would have been a 1h15min train journey (one-way) with multiple changes. Carrying a mattress. I sincerely hope the customer rep actually understood why I told them that this was an immediate non-starter for me. Especially since I regularly missed packages because the mail carrier simply didn't attempt delivery at all.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        My experience has been that DPD has by far the best delivery service. Not only can you reschedule delivery for a specific day, but you can do so in advance, or arrange a new address for the package to be delivered to. Perhaps this varies by location?
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Of course it does! It's just that in my experience, rearranging delivery details still requires someone in the chain to give a shit. The delivery person who wouldn't deliver the package on Monday is not going to give a shit if they're instructed to deliver on Tuesday 9am-11am instead, they're going to show up at 4pm and still act like they're doing me a favor. What am I gonna do? I've already paid for the service, so the seller won't care. DPD won't care, they already got paid by the seller.
    - humanistbot 5y ago
      It looks like you're trying to make a clever joke in the style of mocking SV types for reinventing products that have existed for generations, except you're wrong. The parent means the Amazon delivery locker kiosks they're putting in all kinds of retail stores, where you enter a code to unlock the locker with your package. It is secure from theft, has variable sizes, works 24/7 with no waiting for a clerk, and can fill the delivery needs of a neighborhood far more efficiently than apartment-style mailboxes where each resident is assigned their own small locker. I wish that USPS would get into this service, because I'm not a fan of Amazon and package theft is rampant. It is nearly impossible to replicate the Amazon locker experience through USPS and other online retailers. If you want to order a package and pick it up at the post office, the best you can hope for is to beg the seller to send it to you via general delivery, which many do not allow. And even though renting a PO box lets you ship packages to the post office and pick them up, most retailers won't ship to PO boxes. A PO box costs about the same per year as a Prime subscription. Plus, you still have to wait in line to pick up your packages.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The only difference between what you're describing and Canada Post lockers is variable sizes.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        Replying to my own comment - Canada Post actually has varying size lockers now, including outdoors, operated by key. They put the key for the variable size lockers in your small locker to which you have the key.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        So a mailbox with a lock then? We should have had that in 1980. 5 'large mailboxes' for the apartment building, the postman sets the code, locks it, and leaves writes the code on a piece of paper and leaves it in your slot. This is not 'Silicon Valley' innovation.
        5y ago
- amelius 5y ago
  Step 1: Let humans work like robots. Step 2: Develop AI to automate the work using data generated in step 1. Step 3: Convince investors that your AI is close to finished. Use the money to actually build a working version. Step 4: Fire all the humans.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Step 3 seems like two steps, the first of which has happened many times and the second of which has never happened.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      Step 3.5: IPO and exit before investors discover that step 4 is impossible.
  - drdeadringer 5y ago
    Reminds me of a joke: There is a factory at the edge of town which employs one human and one dog. The human's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to keep the human away from the machines.
- specialist 5y ago
  Ya. Gig economy was enabled by IT & AI taking away all the bureaucratic jobs.
hollerith 5y ago
There is no revolt, is there?
- awild 5y ago
  At least in Germany (and France afaik) riders have been fighting towards unionization, better treatment, and even ownership (see: https://kolyma2.coopcycle.org/de/ https://kolyma2.coopcycle.org/de/) Gorillas especially has been hit hard with literal revolt by riders, which let to some pretty amusing press conferences by their CEO.
  - Thlom 5y ago
    Food delivery cyclists in Norway went on strike and were able to secure status as employees and tariff agreements a couple of years ago.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Sad to see they succeeded in obtaining a legal right to restrict other people's right to freely contract, and an indoctrinated public passively accepts it.
      - jessaustin 5y ago
        Going on strike was the freely chosen decision of the delivery workers. Their employer freely chose to meet their demands rather than going out of business. Sure, the bosses might have preferred to pay independent contractors pennies to work 90 hours a week and destroy their own health, but in just societies that isn't an option.
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        The laws surrounding striking violate the employer's contract liberty. For example, the employer cannot simply fire the contractors/workers striking, and replace them with people willing to accept their offer. >>but in just societies that isn't an option. Someone offering people work on terms that you think are inadequate is not unjust. Interfering in private interactions between other consenting adults, to deny them the option to engage in some voluntary interaction, is what's an unjust act, that is predicated on an unearned sense of moral superiority. And such an interjection doesn't improve the opportunities available to workers in general. If it were that easy, we could set a minimum wage of $500/hr, under which all employment offers are illegal, and create instant prosperity. The correct wage level, for maximizing economic development, and by extension, wage growth, is set by market forces, via the intersection of supply of labor, and the output that people are willing to trade for that labor.
sharmin123 5y ago
Let’s Secure WiFi Network and Prevent WiFi Hacking: https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prevent-wifi-hacking/ https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prev...
wbobeirne 5y ago
Can't help but think of Snow Crash when I see how hyper-"efficient" and intense the job of delivery has become.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
michaelmrose 5y ago
These workers by and large aren't carrying money worth stealing they are being robbed of expensive e-bikes. If these bikes were configured to become inoperable if they couldn't either phone home or talk to the users device then there would be no point in stealing them because nobody would buy them. The end user could authorize their own new devices unless they lost access to both devices and info needed to do so and the manufacturer could handle same if and only if you were the original registered owner or ownership had been transferred in a verifiable way. See why phone theft isn't as big a deal anymore they aren't worth anything if they can't easily be used anywhere. The other ridiculous conditions are solved by making them threat their employees as employees and pay them a minimum wage for time spent including spent idling + millage. If this plus vc money eventually exiting makes some portion of the work uneconomical so be it.
- praptak 5y ago
  I don't believe you can truly make the bike inoperable. Yes, you can make its electronics inoperable but I don't believe you can feasibly make its battery, engine or the mechanics inoperable. I mean theoretically you could, but not in a safe way.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Bike thieves aren't bike mechanics and modern hardware has chips that could fail to perform their task or even brick themselves. It could fail to charge or stop charging at 10% it could spin up the motor but inadequately. It could appear to start but gradually turn off for no reason 10 minutes later leaving it in all instances a safe expensive human powered bike. It could broadcast I'm a stolen bike with cords with the electrical pathway to the transmitter being also wired to something else more vital. You could pass an encoded unique to device signal over the rest of the system with chips elsewhere expecting that signal and noping out if they don't get it to foil rewiring. You could require a periodic modifier received over the air encoded in chip2 .. chip n but not available in chip 1 like a series of codes for your key fob to unlock your car. You could absolutely make it as hard to defeat as defusing a bomb and lunatics who wave glass bottles are no longer stealing your bikes. This has got to be 90% of the problem.
sbacic 5y ago
I'm curious - why is there no open source solution to replace these apps? If not with full functionality, then at least with 80% of the features? The day to day running of the system for each particular market could be handled by an NGO, a cooperative or something of the sort.
- solnyshok 5y ago
  by Guild (by Union)?
- bjackman 5y ago
  I have actually thought about this a lot. I think the answer to your actual question (why not?) is obvious: people with the capital+skills to start this up do not have a solid profit motive. People who would benefit from it don't have capital+skills. However I think setting up something like a worker-owned cooperative to replace various gig economy companies would be a really cool project. Honestly if such a service existed, and my friends continued to use the (cheaper) VC-subsidised option, I'd ostracize them for it.
- jsmith99 5y ago
  Because it would not be competitive? Most of these apps are loss making. An open source solution wouldn't involve VCs subsidising your deliveries.
  - sbacic 5y ago
    So let me get this straight - it's a bad deal for the restaurants, it's an increasingly bad deal for the deliverymen and it depends on VCs subsidizing it to even work? How did something like this even get funded? I mean, I could understand if the development costs were being funded by VC money, but actual deliveries? Even if one company were to actually dominate the market, it would still need to continue subsidizing variable costs and there is no moat to protect them from competition.
    - yetihehe 5y ago
      > How did something like this even get funded? I believe that it's "too much money sloshing around".
pjc50 5y ago
Use of the convoy system to protect people crossing the bridge, like WW2 defence against U-Boats? Ingenious, but it's sad that it's become dangerous enough to justify that.
dbuder 5y ago
"For years, bike activists and workers pushed for legalization, though the apps that benefited from them were largely silent. It was only when another group of tech companies — hoping to make scooter-sharing legal — joined the fight that a bill moved forward in Albany."
sega_sai 5y ago
It is pretty horrific that we live in a society where such stories are considered okay. You can replace the bikes by something else and could easily believe that what is described is Dickens's story about 19th century London.
- tantalor 5y ago
  It's cute you think the world is much different now than 19th century London.
jakelazaroff 5y ago
> The company has been sued multiple times for worker misclassification, tip theft, and other infractions. It settled three times, avoiding a ruling that could torpedo its business model, and another case is currently in arbitration. We gotta find some way to stop companies from repeatedly settling the same claims to avoid a ruling against them. The system is set up so they can pay to sweep individual cases under the rug while maintaining the systemic problem.
- a2tech 5y ago
  In an adversarial system like the US has, if the claimant decides to drop the case, there is no case. You need something like a state's AG to get involved.
- the_snooze 5y ago
  >avoiding a ruling that could torpedo its business model, and another case is currently in arbitration. The real innovation is in skirting labor laws and shifting risks/costs to workers.
Gaessaki 5y ago
We’ve recently started deploying expensive e-cargo bikes for our food delivery coop[1] to try to whittle down our carbon footprint and increase efficiency in urban areas. We have a similar problem of trying to protect our delivery assets (though not nearly as bad as the plight of the gig workers in the article given that our workers can count on the coop and also because Montreal is generally safer than NYC). Our threat vectors are a bit different in that the bikes are more likely to be snatched when the rider is dismounted and in a building for a pickup or delivery. We’ve been experimenting by keeping a GPS in the frame and triggering something akin to a car alarm when the bike starts moving too significantly while the rider’s phone isn’t in the vicinity of the bike. Our primary challenge has been finding the ideal way to lock the bikes while dismounted. The best chain locks are too unwieldy to use for the pace our couriers move at. Wheel locks were interesting but would end up breaking spokes when couriers would inevitably ride them while still locked. We’re currently giving folding locks a go. Open to suggestions if anyone has ideas or experience with other solutions. [1] https://radish.coop https://radish.coop
- JackMcMack 5y ago
  I'm aware of no off the shelf solution, but this does sound like a problem that can be solved with electronics. The motor controller could do electric braking if the rider's phone isn't in the vicinity of the bike. This would mean you can't push the pedals, but the wheels will still turn without resistance. If you forget to unlock it, you won't break the spokes, and there's no sudden halt, so you can still manually and safely break. You could still run off with the bike on foot of course. But maybe if the pedals are blocked by the motor, you can use the standard lock without breaking the spokes?
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Social problems probably can’t be solved by electronics.
  - Gaessaki 5y ago
    We’ve increasingly been looking at electronics as you’ve suggested. I like the idea of tying the controller to the rider’s device. It would require some hacking with our current setup. One of the big risks is that the cargo bikes are worth stealing with a truck or pickup. The resell value is great and even if the bike is inoperable, the parts can be easily dismantled and sold off. I worry that the tactics will shift more towards that direction as the bikes themselves get harder to ride off on.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tazjin 5y ago
It's always strange to read these reports from American cities that sound like something out of war-torn countries. Delivery workers grouping together to defend themselves against hordes of bandits, in well-known places, with no police protection? What the ...? This sort of thing would be unthinkable in central Moscow and most other large European city centres (the only European city I've ever felt unsafe in is Brussels, and that's still quite different from NYC).
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > It's always strange to read these reports from American cities that sound like something out of war-torn countries. It's a new thing in the US, and took me about a year to figure out. Democratic Party mayors of US cities think it's "progressive" (Marxist) to not arrest people committing crimes, since the mayors live in gated communities and have bodyguards. Even our light-weight VP, Kamala Harris, bailed out arrestees, and is shirking her official duties by opening the border with Mexico to gerrymander our entire country. Think of it like Nazi brown shirts or Mussolini fascists roaming the streets, but in 2021.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  For a while there, NYC was very safe. Then de Blasio got elected. Hopefully, Eric Adams can turn around the disaster Bill is leaving him.
  - refurb 5y ago
    SF was always rough but has definitely gotten a bit more lawless. I wonder if we’re seeing history repeat itself? Cities grew in the 50’s, then saw people leave in the 60-70’s, then return in the 90’s.
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      The usual explanations for the prior crime wave were exogenous—crack cocaine and leaded gasoline are the two I’ve seen most frequently. On the other hand, this latest round seems to be the result of poor policy choices.
the-dude 5y ago
So the have-nots are attacking the servants of the elite. I am not surprised. In fact, I endorse this. I frkn' hate these services for inserting themselves between the customer and small mom & pop food shops. Using capital from the elites. All leading to further atomization and dependence on big corps. Go on your bike or by foot and visit your local shops.
- TheGigaChad 5y ago
  Idiot.
nzmsv 5y ago
Seems like Gotham is eager to live up to its comic book version. Except in real life you don't get Batman stepping in, you get the mafia. It's easy to see the next step too: these organized protection groups get some members who specialize in being the muscle, and an ambitious leader who'll actually market himself as the protector of the people instead of just a guy with a Facebook page.
joncrane 5y ago
The most disappointing thing about this article is the absolute apathy from the NYPD. At this point the police writ large are practically sabotaging their reputation with absolutely no self awareness whatsoever. What are we going to do as a society as it becomes increasingly obvious to every citizen that the police, in fact are not here to protect, NOR to serve?
- ryandrake 5y ago
  It's been known since 2005 [1] (with precedent back to the 1980's) that the police have no Constitutional duty to protect citizens from harm, even from a specific, credible, and immediate threat. They could basically do nothing, and as long as their management chain is happy, no problem. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
  - joncrane 5y ago
    Yes, those of us who follow these things know about that decision, but as more and more people find out, there is less and less trust and respect for police, and that's not good for society nor the police. The odd thing is that many PDs around the country are doubling down rather than re-examining their mission and culture.

204 points by fourmii 5y ago

Paraphrasing an observation I heard in a podcast some weeks ago: We were promised little robot butlers in the scifi we read as kids, but what we got was human servants that act like robots.

danuker 5y ago
I suppose a step towards automating the jobs is to break them down into manageable, replaceable pieces. For example, there have appeared automated boxes for recipients to pick up packages.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  > For example, there have appeared automated boxes for recipients to pick up packages. You mean a mail box?
  - guntars 5y ago
    Yeah, like a mail box, but you have one at multiple addresses in most cities.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    (I cannot tell if you're being sarcastic or genuine). Yes, except (before COVID) if you were at work, and the mail carrier tried to deliver a package to your house unsuccessfully, they would take it with them again. Or they would leave it outside the house, where it could be stolen. Then, starting the next day, you could go to the nearest pickup site (and depending on the carrier, this either means the post office, which might be a 20min walk, or a completely-out-of-town parcel distribution site, which could be a 1h15 train ride [based on my own location]) to get it. There, you would take a number, and wait in line up to 15 minutes (because all working people would be there at that time of day). The alternative is an automated postal box, which does not need an employee to operate it. It's just a huge wall of lockers with a central terminal. When you receive a package there, you get an electronic unlock code to unlock exactly that 1 locker with your package in it. These postal boxes can be installed anywhere where spare space is available. Maybe that's platform 5 at your nearest train station, or outside the pharmacy in town. At least it's closer to your home, and open 24/7.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      Parcel delivery is such a classic principal-agent problem; the customer contracts with a seller, who then subcontracts with a delivery company. But because there's layers in the middle the delivery companies can't compete on actual customer satisfaction, just on being cheap for the vendors.
      - ThePadawan 5y ago
        I do my best to tell sellers this. I recently tried to find out where to buy a new mattress online. Usually I get them IKEA and that's fine, but their shipping is so expensive, it's generally only worth it if you boy a whole lot of large items at once. I talked to the customer repo of another shop to inquire what vendor they used for shipping and what would happen if I wasn't home - and they told me they used DPD. Turns out that DPD's "we missed you" service is "you have to go to our distribution center to pick up your package". As mentioned above, that would have been a 1h15min train journey (one-way) with multiple changes. Carrying a mattress. I sincerely hope the customer rep actually understood why I told them that this was an immediate non-starter for me. Especially since I regularly missed packages because the mail carrier simply didn't attempt delivery at all.
        nicoburns 5y ago
        My experience has been that DPD has by far the best delivery service. Not only can you reschedule delivery for a specific day, but you can do so in advance, or arrange a new address for the package to be delivered to. Perhaps this varies by location?
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Of course it does! It's just that in my experience, rearranging delivery details still requires someone in the chain to give a shit. The delivery person who wouldn't deliver the package on Monday is not going to give a shit if they're instructed to deliver on Tuesday 9am-11am instead, they're going to show up at 4pm and still act like they're doing me a favor. What am I gonna do? I've already paid for the service, so the seller won't care. DPD won't care, they already got paid by the seller.
  - humanistbot 5y ago
    It looks like you're trying to make a clever joke in the style of mocking SV types for reinventing products that have existed for generations, except you're wrong. The parent means the Amazon delivery locker kiosks they're putting in all kinds of retail stores, where you enter a code to unlock the locker with your package. It is secure from theft, has variable sizes, works 24/7 with no waiting for a clerk, and can fill the delivery needs of a neighborhood far more efficiently than apartment-style mailboxes where each resident is assigned their own small locker. I wish that USPS would get into this service, because I'm not a fan of Amazon and package theft is rampant. It is nearly impossible to replicate the Amazon locker experience through USPS and other online retailers. If you want to order a package and pick it up at the post office, the best you can hope for is to beg the seller to send it to you via general delivery, which many do not allow. And even though renting a PO box lets you ship packages to the post office and pick them up, most retailers won't ship to PO boxes. A PO box costs about the same per year as a Prime subscription. Plus, you still have to wait in line to pick up your packages.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      The only difference between what you're describing and Canada Post lockers is variable sizes.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Replying to my own comment - Canada Post actually has varying size lockers now, including outdoors, operated by key. They put the key for the variable size lockers in your small locker to which you have the key.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      So a mailbox with a lock then? We should have had that in 1980. 5 'large mailboxes' for the apartment building, the postman sets the code, locks it, and leaves writes the code on a piece of paper and leaves it in your slot. This is not 'Silicon Valley' innovation.
      - 5y ago
amelius 5y ago
Step 1: Let humans work like robots. Step 2: Develop AI to automate the work using data generated in step 1. Step 3: Convince investors that your AI is close to finished. Use the money to actually build a working version. Step 4: Fire all the humans.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Step 3 seems like two steps, the first of which has happened many times and the second of which has never happened.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Step 3.5: IPO and exit before investors discover that step 4 is impossible.
- drdeadringer 5y ago
  Reminds me of a joke: There is a factory at the edge of town which employs one human and one dog. The human's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to keep the human away from the machines.
specialist 5y ago
Ya. Gig economy was enabled by IT & AI taking away all the bureaucratic jobs.

hollerith 5y ago

There is no revolt, is there?

awild 5y ago
At least in Germany (and France afaik) riders have been fighting towards unionization, better treatment, and even ownership (see: https://kolyma2.coopcycle.org/de/ https://kolyma2.coopcycle.org/de/) Gorillas especially has been hit hard with literal revolt by riders, which let to some pretty amusing press conferences by their CEO.
- Thlom 5y ago
  Food delivery cyclists in Norway went on strike and were able to secure status as employees and tariff agreements a couple of years ago.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Sad to see they succeeded in obtaining a legal right to restrict other people's right to freely contract, and an indoctrinated public passively accepts it.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      Going on strike was the freely chosen decision of the delivery workers. Their employer freely chose to meet their demands rather than going out of business. Sure, the bosses might have preferred to pay independent contractors pennies to work 90 hours a week and destroy their own health, but in just societies that isn't an option.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        The laws surrounding striking violate the employer's contract liberty. For example, the employer cannot simply fire the contractors/workers striking, and replace them with people willing to accept their offer. >>but in just societies that isn't an option. Someone offering people work on terms that you think are inadequate is not unjust. Interfering in private interactions between other consenting adults, to deny them the option to engage in some voluntary interaction, is what's an unjust act, that is predicated on an unearned sense of moral superiority. And such an interjection doesn't improve the opportunities available to workers in general. If it were that easy, we could set a minimum wage of $500/hr, under which all employment offers are illegal, and create instant prosperity. The correct wage level, for maximizing economic development, and by extension, wage growth, is set by market forces, via the intersection of supply of labor, and the output that people are willing to trade for that labor.

sharmin123 5y ago

Let’s Secure WiFi Network and Prevent WiFi Hacking: https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prevent-wifi-hacking/ https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prev...

wbobeirne 5y ago

Can't help but think of Snow Crash when I see how hyper-"efficient" and intense the job of delivery has become.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

michaelmrose 5y ago

These workers by and large aren't carrying money worth stealing they are being robbed of expensive e-bikes. If these bikes were configured to become inoperable if they couldn't either phone home or talk to the users device then there would be no point in stealing them because nobody would buy them. The end user could authorize their own new devices unless they lost access to both devices and info needed to do so and the manufacturer could handle same if and only if you were the original registered owner or ownership had been transferred in a verifiable way. See why phone theft isn't as big a deal anymore they aren't worth anything if they can't easily be used anywhere. The other ridiculous conditions are solved by making them threat their employees as employees and pay them a minimum wage for time spent including spent idling + millage. If this plus vc money eventually exiting makes some portion of the work uneconomical so be it.

praptak 5y ago
I don't believe you can truly make the bike inoperable. Yes, you can make its electronics inoperable but I don't believe you can feasibly make its battery, engine or the mechanics inoperable. I mean theoretically you could, but not in a safe way.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Bike thieves aren't bike mechanics and modern hardware has chips that could fail to perform their task or even brick themselves. It could fail to charge or stop charging at 10% it could spin up the motor but inadequately. It could appear to start but gradually turn off for no reason 10 minutes later leaving it in all instances a safe expensive human powered bike. It could broadcast I'm a stolen bike with cords with the electrical pathway to the transmitter being also wired to something else more vital. You could pass an encoded unique to device signal over the rest of the system with chips elsewhere expecting that signal and noping out if they don't get it to foil rewiring. You could require a periodic modifier received over the air encoded in chip2 .. chip n but not available in chip 1 like a series of codes for your key fob to unlock your car. You could absolutely make it as hard to defeat as defusing a bomb and lunatics who wave glass bottles are no longer stealing your bikes. This has got to be 90% of the problem.

sbacic 5y ago

I'm curious - why is there no open source solution to replace these apps? If not with full functionality, then at least with 80% of the features? The day to day running of the system for each particular market could be handled by an NGO, a cooperative or something of the sort.

solnyshok 5y ago
by Guild (by Union)?
bjackman 5y ago
I have actually thought about this a lot. I think the answer to your actual question (why not?) is obvious: people with the capital+skills to start this up do not have a solid profit motive. People who would benefit from it don't have capital+skills. However I think setting up something like a worker-owned cooperative to replace various gig economy companies would be a really cool project. Honestly if such a service existed, and my friends continued to use the (cheaper) VC-subsidised option, I'd ostracize them for it.
jsmith99 5y ago
Because it would not be competitive? Most of these apps are loss making. An open source solution wouldn't involve VCs subsidising your deliveries.
- sbacic 5y ago
  So let me get this straight - it's a bad deal for the restaurants, it's an increasingly bad deal for the deliverymen and it depends on VCs subsidizing it to even work? How did something like this even get funded? I mean, I could understand if the development costs were being funded by VC money, but actual deliveries? Even if one company were to actually dominate the market, it would still need to continue subsidizing variable costs and there is no moat to protect them from competition.
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    > How did something like this even get funded? I believe that it's "too much money sloshing around".

pjc50 5y ago

Use of the convoy system to protect people crossing the bridge, like WW2 defence against U-Boats? Ingenious, but it's sad that it's become dangerous enough to justify that.

dbuder 5y ago

"For years, bike activists and workers pushed for legalization, though the apps that benefited from them were largely silent. It was only when another group of tech companies — hoping to make scooter-sharing legal — joined the fight that a bill moved forward in Albany."

sega_sai 5y ago

It is pretty horrific that we live in a society where such stories are considered okay. You can replace the bikes by something else and could easily believe that what is described is Dickens's story about 19th century London.

tantalor 5y ago
It's cute you think the world is much different now than 19th century London.

jakelazaroff 5y ago

> The company has been sued multiple times for worker misclassification, tip theft, and other infractions. It settled three times, avoiding a ruling that could torpedo its business model, and another case is currently in arbitration. We gotta find some way to stop companies from repeatedly settling the same claims to avoid a ruling against them. The system is set up so they can pay to sweep individual cases under the rug while maintaining the systemic problem.

a2tech 5y ago
In an adversarial system like the US has, if the claimant decides to drop the case, there is no case. You need something like a state's AG to get involved.
the_snooze 5y ago
>avoiding a ruling that could torpedo its business model, and another case is currently in arbitration. The real innovation is in skirting labor laws and shifting risks/costs to workers.

Gaessaki 5y ago

We’ve recently started deploying expensive e-cargo bikes for our food delivery coop[1] to try to whittle down our carbon footprint and increase efficiency in urban areas. We have a similar problem of trying to protect our delivery assets (though not nearly as bad as the plight of the gig workers in the article given that our workers can count on the coop and also because Montreal is generally safer than NYC). Our threat vectors are a bit different in that the bikes are more likely to be snatched when the rider is dismounted and in a building for a pickup or delivery. We’ve been experimenting by keeping a GPS in the frame and triggering something akin to a car alarm when the bike starts moving too significantly while the rider’s phone isn’t in the vicinity of the bike. Our primary challenge has been finding the ideal way to lock the bikes while dismounted. The best chain locks are too unwieldy to use for the pace our couriers move at. Wheel locks were interesting but would end up breaking spokes when couriers would inevitably ride them while still locked. We’re currently giving folding locks a go. Open to suggestions if anyone has ideas or experience with other solutions. [1] https://radish.coop https://radish.coop

JackMcMack 5y ago
I'm aware of no off the shelf solution, but this does sound like a problem that can be solved with electronics. The motor controller could do electric braking if the rider's phone isn't in the vicinity of the bike. This would mean you can't push the pedals, but the wheels will still turn without resistance. If you forget to unlock it, you won't break the spokes, and there's no sudden halt, so you can still manually and safely break. You could still run off with the bike on foot of course. But maybe if the pedals are blocked by the motor, you can use the standard lock without breaking the spokes?
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Social problems probably can’t be solved by electronics.
- Gaessaki 5y ago
  We’ve increasingly been looking at electronics as you’ve suggested. I like the idea of tying the controller to the rider’s device. It would require some hacking with our current setup. One of the big risks is that the cargo bikes are worth stealing with a truck or pickup. The resell value is great and even if the bike is inoperable, the parts can be easily dismantled and sold off. I worry that the tactics will shift more towards that direction as the bikes themselves get harder to ride off on.

deleted 5y ago

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tazjin 5y ago

It's always strange to read these reports from American cities that sound like something out of war-torn countries. Delivery workers grouping together to defend themselves against hordes of bandits, in well-known places, with no police protection? What the ...? This sort of thing would be unthinkable in central Moscow and most other large European city centres (the only European city I've ever felt unsafe in is Brussels, and that's still quite different from NYC).

redis_mlc 5y ago
> It's always strange to read these reports from American cities that sound like something out of war-torn countries. It's a new thing in the US, and took me about a year to figure out. Democratic Party mayors of US cities think it's "progressive" (Marxist) to not arrest people committing crimes, since the mayors live in gated communities and have bodyguards. Even our light-weight VP, Kamala Harris, bailed out arrestees, and is shirking her official duties by opening the border with Mexico to gerrymander our entire country. Think of it like Nazi brown shirts or Mussolini fascists roaming the streets, but in 2021.
bradleyjg 5y ago
For a while there, NYC was very safe. Then de Blasio got elected. Hopefully, Eric Adams can turn around the disaster Bill is leaving him.
- refurb 5y ago
  SF was always rough but has definitely gotten a bit more lawless. I wonder if we’re seeing history repeat itself? Cities grew in the 50’s, then saw people leave in the 60-70’s, then return in the 90’s.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    The usual explanations for the prior crime wave were exogenous—crack cocaine and leaded gasoline are the two I’ve seen most frequently. On the other hand, this latest round seems to be the result of poor policy choices.

the-dude 5y ago

So the have-nots are attacking the servants of the elite. I am not surprised. In fact, I endorse this. I frkn' hate these services for inserting themselves between the customer and small mom & pop food shops. Using capital from the elites. All leading to further atomization and dependence on big corps. Go on your bike or by foot and visit your local shops.

TheGigaChad 5y ago
Idiot.

nzmsv 5y ago

Seems like Gotham is eager to live up to its comic book version. Except in real life you don't get Batman stepping in, you get the mafia. It's easy to see the next step too: these organized protection groups get some members who specialize in being the muscle, and an ambitious leader who'll actually market himself as the protector of the people instead of just a guy with a Facebook page.

joncrane 5y ago

The most disappointing thing about this article is the absolute apathy from the NYPD. At this point the police writ large are practically sabotaging their reputation with absolutely no self awareness whatsoever. What are we going to do as a society as it becomes increasingly obvious to every citizen that the police, in fact are not here to protect, NOR to serve?

ryandrake 5y ago
It's been known since 2005 [1] (with precedent back to the 1980's) that the police have no Constitutional duty to protect citizens from harm, even from a specific, credible, and immediate threat. They could basically do nothing, and as long as their management chain is happy, no problem. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
- joncrane 5y ago
  Yes, those of us who follow these things know about that decision, but as more and more people find out, there is less and less trust and respect for police, and that's not good for society nor the police. The odd thing is that many PDs around the country are doubling down rather than re-examining their mission and culture.