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As I run past the RIM buildings, I see these posters
- rawreth 15y agoMore context: As I'm jogging to work, there were students holding up boards with those posters right in front of the RIM buildings. I feel embarrassed as a fellow Waterloo student.
- icegreentea 15y agoYeah, cooping in Toronto right now, just asked a bunch of my friends at school about this... I share your embarrassment. It actually hurts that a company is trying to manipulate us like this. Not just because it's so blindingly obvious, but because it will work on enough people.
- AlexC04 15y agoWait, they're doing it and not getting paid by someone to do it? I mean people (usually ridiculously hot women) stand out on the street holding up signs telling me how awesome red-bull is. It's pretty easy to pick up a street promotions crew. The job generally tends to have Abercrombie-style hiring practices, pays a bit more than minimum wage, and is pretty flexible. I'd honestly be shocked if there were people dumb enough to do that for real.
- nodata 15y agoIs this one of those "it doesn't have to make sense, it's just for publicity" things? Why are the uni students holding a rally? What connection do they have to"Paybuyer, LLC" which funds this Adwords competitor?
- rcfox 15y ago> Is this one of those "it doesn't have to make sense, it's just for publicity" things? Pretty much. > Why are the uni students holding a rally? What connection do they have to"Paybuyer, LLC" which funds this Adwords competitor? It's not a rally; they're holding up giant signs to face traffic. I think it was four people to a sign. (It didn't occur to me to take a picture until I was already far away.) This is just a PR stunt from a new Waterloo-based advertising startup. They're simply piggy-backing on the whole RIM vs Android thing with weirdly-phrased anti-Android propaganda.
- namank 15y agoThis I gotta see. BRB.
- tytso 15y agoIt's not even advertising. It's a mashup of the yahoo directory (from the early 1990's) concept combined with a Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes model. There are no ads that are put onto publishers' websites to get paid. In order for this to work people have to manually go to the web-based "yellow pages" and then register their intent to buy say, a washing machine, and then that gives you a lottery ticket where if you win, you have to prove that you have purchased a washing machine within N days of registering your intent. So suppose I have already decided to buy a washing machine, and GE, Maytag, and Kenmore have all bought into this scheme. This allows me to get 3 lottery picks, which might have an expected value of 10 cents each ($100, with a 1 in 1000 chance of winning, say). Presumably GE, Maytag, and Kenmore will all have to pay 15 cents, with the startup pocketing 5 cents. The question is whether GE, Maytag, and Kenmore get 15 cents worth of value. Remember, I was a motivated buyer who had already decided to buy a washing machine. The only question was which one. This isn't going to reach someone who hadn't yet decided that they were going to buy, and so didn't have the motivation to go to the startup's web page. To think this would disrupt a true advertising based system, whether it's Adwords, or even the pullouts in the Sunday morning newspaper is just silly.
- brianb722 15y agoThanks. That was a very helpful explanation.
- rcfox 15y agoThese aren't my pictures, but they were posted to Twitter, so I think they're fair game: http://twitpic.com/5olpan http://twitpic.com/5olpan http://twitpic.com/5olpi2 http://twitpic.com/5olpi2 http://twitpic.com/5olpn6 http://twitpic.com/5olpn6 http://twitpic.com/5olpup http://twitpic.com/5olpup
- 3pt14159 15y ago
- jrockway 15y agoI love the quotation. I guess having a website means you make nonsensical statements and then be quoted on some smear campaign's website? "This campaign may be the dumbest thing ever posted to the Internet" -- Jonathan Rockway, jrock.us. Credible! (Also, while Google ads may have funded the beginning of Android, it has enough corporate sponsorship now that it could easily outlive Google. Samsung or HTC could easily take over Google's role if some shiny new Web 2.0 startup kills it. But I'm not holding my breath. All I can say is man... people on the Internet are dumb...)
- nathanb 15y agoDo you think that Android in its current incarnation as quasi-open-source, free to adopt, would survive? Or do you think it would be death by a thousand forks, where Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc. all grabbed their own copy of the repository and made TouchWiz, Sense, and Blur respectively a core part of the UI? I just can't see how Android as a device-agnostic OS would survive without a relatively neutral curator.
- justincormack 15y agoAn open foundation could work. Imagine Apache Android. Sure there would be fragmentation, but at the moment the need for apps is pushing them together. If web apps win then the APIs look a bit different, with more scope for UX differences. Not that this will happen.
- canistr 15y agoI have long had a distrust for Google so I can understand the anti-Google sentiment. If we want a competitive battleground in the market, every player needs to be balanced. I was one of the earliest Android adopters but now I see that I must move on to one of the other underdogs (i.e. Nokia or HP).
- rtperson 15y ago> every player needs to be balanced Correction: at least two players need to be balanced. iPhone, to my mind, provides just such a balance. Trying to boost every single also-ran product into a position of strategic equity is a waste of time. Right now, RIM is the poster child for the Innovator's Dilemma, and there's little anyone including RIM can do about it.
- canistr 15y agoYou mention 'at least two players' but from your explanation, you seem satisfied with ONLY two players. I disagree. I'd rather have multiple competitive players than merely two.
- lusis 15y agoI can't recall the name off hand and my googlefu is failing me but there's a theory that says a system that supports multiple political parties eventually evolves (or devolves) into two parties. I think there's a business correlary as well. Markets aren't designed to support more than one or two players. There's not enough market share in a given space for it. Eventually you'll have first, second and everyone else. The people in first and second may change but there's always a disproportionate market share between number 2 and the rest of the pack. You might want multiple COMPETITIVE players but you will rarely see it. Eventually the minor market folks will quit because it makes no sense financially to continue in the space.
- canistr 15y agoThat doesn't mean that the two largest parties remain the most powerful forever. That's what makes it a theory. For instance, look at state of the Canadian Parliament. For the longest time, the Conservative and Liberal parties were the two largest parties generally swapping power every couple of years. Now we see the Liberals have severely dropped in the power with the rise of the NDP to become the Official Opposition and being the second most voted party in Parliament. Even the Conservatives, who the hold, only garnered 40% of Canadian votes. Again, what you're saying is a theory and it isn't even always the case.
- rtperson 15y ago"I know what to do: let's combat our competitor's overwhelming tactical advantage with faux moral outrage! It's a win-win-win for us!" -- rtperson, just now, sarcastically.
- pnathan 15y agoI smell the scent of Astroturf.... does my nose delude me?
- petervandijck 15y agoYep. Bad Astroturf at that.
- jackx 15y agoI thought it was bad satire.
- api 15y agoThe existence of something like this is an admission of defeat.
- roldon332 15y agoI doubt that college students are going to be upset by an open source project 'Destroying Wealth'. Why would anyone other than RIM share holders care if RIM is loosing market share to Android?
- drcube 15y agoYou care if you are a college kid who helped develop a competitor to Google's AdWords and you want to pitch it to RIM and MS. At least I think that's what is going on here.
- bbgm 15y agoA new form of Jingoism. This is not how you are going to succeed in the long term. Even if this is half serious, appealing to the protective, negative instincts of people suggests that RIM's future is bleaker than I thought it was Edit: It's not clear to me though if RIM has anything to do with this.
- dlikhten 15y ago... every 6 seconds, a BlackBerry device is thrown into the trash(hopefully a recycling bin) due to the evils of better devices like Android. Devices like Android smartphones are creating a "better" model when it comes to user experience, apps, and price, yet how can we define "better"? Is it by a truly better experience? No. We like to define better as "stfu google, rim r0x0rs, tr0l0l0l0l0l! I'm not listening to what you're saying! Go away. RIM ruuuuulz". So next time people tell you that google is better, shove fingers in your ears and kick him in the nuts, because rim is just awesome. --- Edit: Seriously though? TomTom needs to fight google? Thats laughable. Why wouldent I want to buy a device that costs me extra ($150-400), is bulky, non-free map updates, and is known for selling user data to whoever offers money and a good enough usage case? I don't think google is so bad.
- msquared 15y agoI knew a girl that threw hers into the pool (then, foolishly, bought another).
- namank 15y agoUm...how is Android destroying businesses again? And what should I do if I want to help? PS: I have an Android phone
- zdw 15y agoI see nothing about "building a better machine" from a technical perspective on their site, which I'd expect given the byline. I'm no fan of google's business model (advertising in the vast majority of cases == worthless noise), but at least they are using their position to further technology in good ways, which is more than I can see coming out of RIM.
- chalst 15y agoThey have a white paper: http://www.paybuyer.com/about/white_paper/ http://www.paybuyer.com/about/white_paper/
- brianb722 15y agoAccording to a whois the site is run by the owner of this site: http://www.paybuyer.com/ http://www.paybuyer.com/ PayBuyer appears to be an ad network. In other words, the guy could care less about Android and is just mad that AdSense/AdWords dominates. It's funny that supporters of RIM have taken it seriously without doing 30 seconds of research.
- SpoonMeiser 15y agoAlso, it says that directly on the site itself.
- brianb722 15y agoWhoops. Just zoomed right past the site's About. Not sure how anyone can take this thing as more than a publicity stunt.
- Wilduck 15y agoThey don't claim it's anything more. From their website: """ 1. "Isn't this just a gimmick to promote a startup?" Yes, of course, FightAndroid.org is intended to help a startup (Paybuyer) – a startup that will indeed damage Google's AdWords and Android if it succeeds. To see why, view this PowerPoint presentation given to RIM executives in late March. """
- nsomaru 15y ago> Also, it says that directly on the site itself. But you have to admit, playing 'geek-detective' is more fun, right? I mean, who believes the stuff in an "About" page when you can run a whois and get the _Truth_ ^_^
- jamesbritt 15y agoI've had dealings with paybuyer and Mike Rosides. I will never have anything to do with them ever again. Just the thought of it makes my skin crawl.
- _fff_ 15y agoWoah, two whole signatures on the petition. This is going to change the world. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call_to_arms/signatures http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call_to_arms/signatures
- pdenya 15y agoI don't really understand this but I'm not sure which questions to ask. What's the point? Is this just a smear campaign? Why is this getting upvotes?
- moondowner 15y agoSo, an Ad company (Paybuyer - "a tiny startup with a major technology") makes a website campaigning people not to use AdSense? > "Help defend RIM, your city, and universities by joining a rally outside RIM's Annual General Meeting" I feel sorry for those who will actually go there, thinking that by this they will help RIM, and not that in fact they're helping Paybuyer. EDIT: One more thing, instead of ignoring this kind of stuff, it gets submitted on HN. By doing this it get's spread. When someone is trolling and someone else replies to him, guess who wins. This shouldn't have been submitted at all.
- kingkawn 15y agoDon't you perpetuate it too by responding? Wait, didn't I just perpetuate it further?
- Darkstar 15y agoThe website is laughable. The claims made all end in nonsequiturs. Paybuyer is highly speculative and vastly overestimating its ability to disrupt Google Adwords, even with their proposed backing from Waterloo and RIM. Furthermore I don't pity RIM in the least. They made their bed. They chose to keep their products "business oriented" and got left behind when it came to innovation and, in the end, productivity. Why should I chastise Google for opening their platform and offering services for free? Google's model was clearly a better one at drawing customers in, which in turn fuels their advertising through use of mobile advertising in free apps. The website claims Adwords funds Android and that's why it's evil, because it creates a "moat" around Google that makes it nigh impossible to compete with Google. I disagree. I believe Adwords and Android are symbiotic. They fuel each other, and if your company can't compete with Google then DON'T TRY TO COMPETE WITH GOOGLE. Choosing to do so is a huge risk, though it may net huge rewards. By taking them on you accept your fate, be it failure or success. Don't ask us to intervene on your behalf. I gain nothing by backing Paybuyer. Also, Paybuyer is a horrible name for a company.
- spaetzel 15y agoAs a fellow Waterloo resident, supporting local companies is cool. However, I see no evidence that Paybuyer is located in Waterloo, this page http://www.paybuyer.com/help/prove/ http://www.paybuyer.com/help/prove/ has a Arizona address, and the WHOIS http://whois.domaintools.com/paybuyer.org http://whois.domaintools.com/paybuyer.org also gives the same Arizona address.
- vash_stampy 15y agoIf your biggest incentive you offer is to disrupt the business another product, you must not have a very good product.
- tomlin 15y agoLooks like these guys have finally figured it out. This campaign is sure to make Waterloo and RIM look good. Oh wait, no, this is actually embarrassing.
- a3camero 15y agoSurprisingly, that strip of land they're standing on is actually Waterloo city property. It's a strange stunt for a service that looks pretty crappy but it sure did attract a lot of attention from bemused RIM employees milling about this morning.
- kstrauser 15y agoI'm sure Apple will be first to join the fight against Open Source, what with all the money they invested creating their Unix systems from scratch.
- kstrauser 15y agoI meant that sarcastically. Apple used FreeBSD for much of the Unix underpinnings of OS X. They used KHTML as the basis of WebKit, which drives Safari. I just don't think the "fight Android" crowd will win much favor in Cupertino as Apple seems pretty happy working with Open Source.
- wccrawford 15y agoHe hits a nerve, though. The evangelism for companies has been rising at an insane rate. Why do people feel the need to defend their favorite company against the encroachment of other companies? I could understand if their paycheck was on the line. If you write iPod apps and Android starts taking market share, that threatens you. (Assuming you can't also write Android apps, for whatever reason.) But most people just go crazy with no stake at all.
- jonknee 15y agoHumans like choosing sides, however arbitrary. We're tribal at heart.
- rlmw 15y agohttp://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/blog/articles/apple-fanboy-religious-fanatic.htm http://www.neurosciencemarketing.com/blog/articles/apple-fan... is quite interesting in this regard. I know its focused on Apple users, but I wouldn't be surprised if you get similar results by putting evangelists for different platforms through the experiment.
- orangecat 15y agoArguably Android is a special case: if it's eliminated by patent suits or other means, then every mainstream mobile platform will be locked down. That's bad for freedom and innovation, and makes abusive legislation like the CBDTPA feasible to enforce.
- JonnieCache 15y agohttps://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ingroup https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ingroup
- a-priori 15y agoHypothesis: Brand loyalty is the new Nationalism.
- jackolas 15y agoWhen do we get out Congress of Vienna and World Wars on brands/IP then?
- click170 15y agoSo.. they hate Android. But their explanation of why is to point to some blog post which by my view concludes that Android is bringing 'perfect competition' to the marketplace. Soo.. I presume they are against that, but what's funny is the blog post they point to even discusses how perfect competition benefits the consumer and how preventing it would be detrimental. Sounds like the blog post they point to doesn't exactly give reasons to hate android like they think it does...
- reso 15y agoAs a resident of Waterloo and student at UWaterloo, I can tell you this does not represent the opinion of the student body. It is true, UW has got a lot of benefit from RIM and we are very grateful, but half of us have also interned there, so know from experience that the company has a lot of problems they need to work out. I use an iPhone. Most of my friends have a Nexus S or other androids.
- oniTony 15y agoGoogle's Kitchener/Waterloo office is growing rapidly. Google has been hiring many of us (UWaterloo students/grads) for intern/full-time positions. I, for one, welcome our new Android overlords.
- nostromo 15y agoI remember studying in Gates Hall and Allen Center at 'the other UW' in Seattle and seeing every student on a Mac... so this doesn't surprise me.
- iuytghyjuyh 15y agoIf RIM wants to survive it should do what other hi-tech businesses faced by both higher quality and more agile overseas competitors do. Lobby it's friends in Ottawa to require all cell phones in Canada to be made by a Canadian owned company.
- docgnome 15y agoI'm... so confused. This doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with android and everything to do with AdSense.
- nextparadigms 15y agoThe part about making ad directories to kill Google is probably the stupidest things I've ever heard. Also, RIM should embrace Android. They can't fight it. Certainly not with their own OS, and theirs alone. At best, they might have a fighting chance adopting HP's WebOS, together with Samsung and a few others. Together they could easily make a much more successful OS than WP7, and a worthy competitor to Android. Alone, they don't stand a chance. Nobody does, except Apple, because Apple has a lot of other advantages besides just an OS. The problem is they think the only way to be as successful as Apple is to have your own OS. And that's not nearly enough at this point.
- djd 15y agoplease mind my ignorance, can some point out whats the main "reasons" Android is bad?
- iuytghyjuyh 15y agoDepends if you are a RIM shareholder or not! From a OSS point of view, Google don't release changes to the GPL kernel immediately until the hardware makers have actually produced a phone. Perfectly in keeping with the licence but annoys the "I have to have the latest source as of 2seconds ago" crowd. Android's claim of Open Source is a bit moot if you can only run HTC build X on HTC version X hardware, either because they have their own non-GPL drivers, or they have deliberately locked bits of the hardware
- mgrouchy 15y agoHuh a website to promote a startup, by talking smack about google and android. This is both foolish and deceptive. I certainly hope that this isn't the new way to do startup marketing.
- blinkingled 15y agoSo Paybuyer sponsors the website and the website asks people to petition RIM to buy Paybuyer in order to "fight Android". Hmm.
- namank 15y agoOK so after walking past the boards, I think its nothing except a marketing ploy to get Kitchener-Waterloo residents to support the local team. Image - http://twitpic.com/5on93a http://twitpic.com/5on93a Image full size - http://twitpic.com/5on93a/full http://twitpic.com/5on93a/full The posters say to email the CEOs of Apple, Microsoft, and Tom Tom to stop Android because these companies have "lost tens of billions of dollars" (wtf do i care if they lost money?) RIM building is in the background. Students/PR firm (some look like students but they also have your typical hot, bare-waist chick helping) is having a hard time keeping the boards up, the wind keeps knocking them down. Guy in the orange seems to be calling the shots. Drawings look like work of students. I personally like RIM, really want to know whats going on here.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- paulgb 15y agoI think people are taking this more seriously than intended. It's a PR ploy for a company unrelated to RIM (and as spaetzel pointed out, possibly unrelated to Waterloo too). Unfortunately their little PR ploy looks embarrassing to Waterloo, UWaterloo, and especially RIM. As a UW student, it's a little insulting that they expect to appeal to protectionist urges to help their own little company, which appears to not even be from Canada let alone Waterloo. I hope this is ignored as it deserves to be.
- nagelwithlox 15y agoI'll start fighting Android as soon as RIM makes a phone that doesn't suck.
- dasil003 15y agoWait, this is serious? It smells like satire, or at best a troll. If you have a legit startup why in god's name would you act like RIM is the source of value and innovation in mobile? Why would you wed yourself to a company that's doing so poorly?
- mcantelon 15y agoCute marketing campaign. Pretty straight up CHE-UP.
- kaushalc 15y agoThis site lists all the ways to fight android except saying build better RIM products and fight in the market...