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Python is certainly popular, but the TIOBE Index ranking is not credible. Quote: "The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses

Python is certainly popular, but the TIOBE Index ranking is not credible. Quote: "The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors. " According to this index, "Logo", beats out Rust, Scala, Kotlin, and Cobol. I cannot remind myself when I last time saw a course, book or even any source code covering Logo. This must be some very poorly vetted, automatically collected data that tripped over something provoking the ranking.

taffer 6y ago
That C is supposed to be the most popular language makes the whole ranking questionable. The stackoverflow ranking[1] corresponds much more to my own experience in real life. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#most-popular-technologies https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#most-popular-...
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  On the other hand the stackoverflow survey might show that C is so simple that programmers using it don't need stackoverflow :)
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    C is simple on the surface but it gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot that even after 6 years of using it I don't dare call it simple knowing my war scars.
    - 0-_-0 6y ago
      Sure, but you probably don't go to stackoverflow to help you debug it. Stackoverflow is more for "how do I do X in Y" rather than "where is the error in my million line codebase"
    - the5avage 6y ago
      I think there is a difference between simple and easy. I would say C is simple but still hard ;) I'm not a native english speaker so take this with a grain of salt.
  - dilly_bar 6y ago
    C is simple? I don't find it simple compared to Python or other web langs.
  - mckeed 6y ago
    I was a big stackoverflow user and then completely stopped using it when I switched to full time embedded C. Any APIs I was using or problems I hit were too niche.
- DJHenk 6y ago
  Well, if you take away HTML/CSS and SQL, because most people would not call them programming languages, Python still comes in second, right above Java. So it's alright.
  - wil421 6y ago
    How could they even include HTML/CSS? A huge majority of people who are using Python, Java, .net, and JavaScript are going to answer yes to those. SQL is justified though. I’ve met quite a few BAs or DBAs who can do magic in a sql developer suite but don’t have a programming bone in their body.
    - Retric 6y ago
      IMO, this is one of those theory vs practice things. CSS is turing-complete, but that’s really not how it’s used. So, excluding CSS really should also exclude SQL, though not TSQL.
- Deukhoofd 6y ago
  I'd argue that StackOverflow shows what developers have the most questions about. This means that ranking is influenced by the amount of experience people have in the programming field, and leads to languages people commonly use as their first languages showing higher. Besides that it's also influenced by how good the language is at explaining to the user what is going wrong. Clear error messages mean the user uses StackOverflow less, while arcane errors would mean they need to look for longer for the solution for their issue.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    The stackoverflow ranking we are talking about is the result of a survey. It's not influenced by amount of experience. Experienced developers don't get greater or lower weighting in that survey.
    - wainstead 6y ago
      True, however, the primary problem with the SO survey is the participants are self-selected [1], not randomly sampled. (It's explained in the survey's methodology). What this means is we have no idea if the sample of programmers is representative of the worldwide programmer population. I'd argue that C# and other Microsoft languages are vastly under-represented in the SO survey, but we have no way of knowing if that's true. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias
- CivBase 6y ago
  C is the most popular language for embedded systems development by a huge margin. StackOverflow is also a place for asking questions. C is a relatively simple language and one which has been around for longer than most developers have been alive. There may just not be much left to ask about it.
  - taffer 6y ago
    Just about every larger company has an IT department where people write business or web applications. But not every larger company has people programming embedded systems. The TIOBE index simply does not reflect reality.
    - Barrin92 6y ago
      Every car, every industrial machine, every rocket, plane and tractor as well as the entire stack that your web applications run on in the cloud, the operating system, the infrastructure have significant parts written in C or C++. I think you need to take into account that the world of software extends beyond web applications and white collar services.
      - mixmastamyk 6y ago
        I think what they're saying is that applications are an order of magnitude more numerous than infrastructure software. Sounds plausible to me.
        hrktb 6y ago
        Is it ? We sure are using more apps than ever. But I think we are also using more "smart" things than ever, and not just in the buzzword sense. A ton of everyday object now have chips, from toothbrushes, thermometers, door bells, car keys, fire alarms, lights, even charging cables. Considering drivers are coded for every variations of these appliances and chips, it look to me to be a tremendous amoubt of code written all over the world. Especially as writing code is cheaper than adapting hardware, even different uses of the same chip could get different drivers.
- otabdeveloper4 6y ago
  I'm mostly a C++ and Python programmer by a large margin, but I only ever visit Stackoverflow for Javascript questions or Linux distribution bugs/misfeatures. This only represents the sad state of Javascript documentation, I think.
  - cphoover 6y ago
    You been to MDN? their JavaScript Documentation is impeccable? What are you referring to? There are tons of JS resources available? Or are you referring to 3p libraries which vary in terms of their documentation and can be contributed by anyone?
    - otabdeveloper4 6y ago
      > You been to MDN? Of course. > ...their JavaScript Documentation is impeccable? Well, no. MDN doesn't answer the questions everyone has: "Which browser does this work on?" "Is it okay to use this new feature?" "Why does this buggy thing do this to me?" "Is it really true that you can't do <simple thing> in CSS"? Etc. Web standards really aren't. (And I'm not even touching the third-party library churn problem here.)
  - gmadsen 6y ago
    I mostly agree. I tend to ask and follow peers advice rather than what is immediately available on the web.
rozab 6y ago
It's just a complete joke. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/visual-basic-dotnet/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/visual-basic-dotnet/
- stOneskull 6y ago
  why?
learnstats2 6y ago
Logo is still very commonly used in early educational settings - maybe not typically for engineering applications, but I'm confident it has far more people using it than the other languages you list.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  I recently had to use logo when migrating a model to another platform someone originally wrote in a flavor of logo. It's a mess.
  - timbit42 6y ago
    The Logo code was a mess, or the Logo language is a mess?
- walkingolof 6y ago
  I have a hard time believing that Logo should even be used by a fraction of the people using for example Kotlin, which is a very popular language for Android development ...
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    And yet... there are currently more elementary school children in California than there are Android apps in the world. (The parent link has a quote from TIOBE CEO that illustrates they are not considering only professional software engineer use)
eloff 6y ago
They rank C number 1. There is no way that reflects reality. JavaScript is easily number one for reasons that will surprise nobody. On the WakaTime public leaderboards it dominates to such an extent that I think programmers spend more time writing JavaScript than all the other languages combined. I don't know if that generalizes to the broader population, but it gives one an idea how ubiquitous it is.
- 0x445442 6y ago
  Was going to say the same thing. Considering total amount of running code, yeah C might be #1 but there's no way it's the most "popular".
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  I can't actually say what the popularity of C/C++ is. But I don't know what you do for a living but in general Hackernews tends to have webdev tunnel vision. Embedded, operating system development, browser development, OS, driver dev, games, telecoms, compilers, lots of IoT, systems development generally, all of this is in C/C++, and will be for the forseeable future. That is a lot of lines of code, but mostly invisible to people whose role in the industry is "full stack development" type jobs.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    I do most of my work in C/C++. There's a ton of it in every microwave oven, washing machine, car, telephone, device driver, etc.
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      Likewise, my day job has been C++ for the last decade. And it's not just in devices or games, or in OSs. Before I worked in hardware devices I worked in video pipeline stuff in Google Fiber. And before that, I worked on the ad serving stack at Google and another company before that. All in C++. A good portion of servers @ Google are in C++. Now, if you strictly interpret the "C" in this popularity nonsense as "C", then sure. Pure ANSI C has a fairly restrictive use environment. But "C/C++" is a much much larger ecosystem. Also get a laugh out of the people here calling C "simple". Ho boy.
mschuetz 6y ago
> based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide So I guess it just doesn't count JS developers as skilled engineers?

taffer 6y ago

That C is supposed to be the most popular language makes the whole ranking questionable. The stackoverflow ranking[1] corresponds much more to my own experience in real life. [1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#most-popular-technologies https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#most-popular-...

0-_-0 6y ago
On the other hand the stackoverflow survey might show that C is so simple that programmers using it don't need stackoverflow :)
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  C is simple on the surface but it gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot that even after 6 years of using it I don't dare call it simple knowing my war scars.
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    Sure, but you probably don't go to stackoverflow to help you debug it. Stackoverflow is more for "how do I do X in Y" rather than "where is the error in my million line codebase"
  - the5avage 6y ago
    I think there is a difference between simple and easy. I would say C is simple but still hard ;) I'm not a native english speaker so take this with a grain of salt.
- dilly_bar 6y ago
  C is simple? I don't find it simple compared to Python or other web langs.
- mckeed 6y ago
  I was a big stackoverflow user and then completely stopped using it when I switched to full time embedded C. Any APIs I was using or problems I hit were too niche.
DJHenk 6y ago
Well, if you take away HTML/CSS and SQL, because most people would not call them programming languages, Python still comes in second, right above Java. So it's alright.
- wil421 6y ago
  How could they even include HTML/CSS? A huge majority of people who are using Python, Java, .net, and JavaScript are going to answer yes to those. SQL is justified though. I’ve met quite a few BAs or DBAs who can do magic in a sql developer suite but don’t have a programming bone in their body.
  - Retric 6y ago
    IMO, this is one of those theory vs practice things. CSS is turing-complete, but that’s really not how it’s used. So, excluding CSS really should also exclude SQL, though not TSQL.
Deukhoofd 6y ago
I'd argue that StackOverflow shows what developers have the most questions about. This means that ranking is influenced by the amount of experience people have in the programming field, and leads to languages people commonly use as their first languages showing higher. Besides that it's also influenced by how good the language is at explaining to the user what is going wrong. Clear error messages mean the user uses StackOverflow less, while arcane errors would mean they need to look for longer for the solution for their issue.
- imtringued 6y ago
  The stackoverflow ranking we are talking about is the result of a survey. It's not influenced by amount of experience. Experienced developers don't get greater or lower weighting in that survey.
  - wainstead 6y ago
    True, however, the primary problem with the SO survey is the participants are self-selected [1], not randomly sampled. (It's explained in the survey's methodology). What this means is we have no idea if the sample of programmers is representative of the worldwide programmer population. I'd argue that C# and other Microsoft languages are vastly under-represented in the SO survey, but we have no way of knowing if that's true. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias
CivBase 6y ago
C is the most popular language for embedded systems development by a huge margin. StackOverflow is also a place for asking questions. C is a relatively simple language and one which has been around for longer than most developers have been alive. There may just not be much left to ask about it.
- taffer 6y ago
  Just about every larger company has an IT department where people write business or web applications. But not every larger company has people programming embedded systems. The TIOBE index simply does not reflect reality.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    Every car, every industrial machine, every rocket, plane and tractor as well as the entire stack that your web applications run on in the cloud, the operating system, the infrastructure have significant parts written in C or C++. I think you need to take into account that the world of software extends beyond web applications and white collar services.
    - mixmastamyk 6y ago
      I think what they're saying is that applications are an order of magnitude more numerous than infrastructure software. Sounds plausible to me.
      - hrktb 6y ago
        Is it ? We sure are using more apps than ever. But I think we are also using more "smart" things than ever, and not just in the buzzword sense. A ton of everyday object now have chips, from toothbrushes, thermometers, door bells, car keys, fire alarms, lights, even charging cables. Considering drivers are coded for every variations of these appliances and chips, it look to me to be a tremendous amoubt of code written all over the world. Especially as writing code is cheaper than adapting hardware, even different uses of the same chip could get different drivers.
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
I'm mostly a C++ and Python programmer by a large margin, but I only ever visit Stackoverflow for Javascript questions or Linux distribution bugs/misfeatures. This only represents the sad state of Javascript documentation, I think.
- cphoover 6y ago
  You been to MDN? their JavaScript Documentation is impeccable? What are you referring to? There are tons of JS resources available? Or are you referring to 3p libraries which vary in terms of their documentation and can be contributed by anyone?
  - otabdeveloper4 6y ago
    > You been to MDN? Of course. > ...their JavaScript Documentation is impeccable? Well, no. MDN doesn't answer the questions everyone has: "Which browser does this work on?" "Is it okay to use this new feature?" "Why does this buggy thing do this to me?" "Is it really true that you can't do <simple thing> in CSS"? Etc. Web standards really aren't. (And I'm not even touching the third-party library churn problem here.)
- gmadsen 6y ago
  I mostly agree. I tend to ask and follow peers advice rather than what is immediately available on the web.

rozab 6y ago

It's just a complete joke. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/visual-basic-dotnet/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/visual-basic-dotnet/

stOneskull 6y ago
why?

learnstats2 6y ago

Logo is still very commonly used in early educational settings - maybe not typically for engineering applications, but I'm confident it has far more people using it than the other languages you list.

Frost1x 6y ago
I recently had to use logo when migrating a model to another platform someone originally wrote in a flavor of logo. It's a mess.
- timbit42 6y ago
  The Logo code was a mess, or the Logo language is a mess?
walkingolof 6y ago
I have a hard time believing that Logo should even be used by a fraction of the people using for example Kotlin, which is a very popular language for Android development ...
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  And yet... there are currently more elementary school children in California than there are Android apps in the world. (The parent link has a quote from TIOBE CEO that illustrates they are not considering only professional software engineer use)

eloff 6y ago

They rank C number 1. There is no way that reflects reality. JavaScript is easily number one for reasons that will surprise nobody. On the WakaTime public leaderboards it dominates to such an extent that I think programmers spend more time writing JavaScript than all the other languages combined. I don't know if that generalizes to the broader population, but it gives one an idea how ubiquitous it is.

0x445442 6y ago
Was going to say the same thing. Considering total amount of running code, yeah C might be #1 but there's no way it's the most "popular".
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I can't actually say what the popularity of C/C++ is. But I don't know what you do for a living but in general Hackernews tends to have webdev tunnel vision. Embedded, operating system development, browser development, OS, driver dev, games, telecoms, compilers, lots of IoT, systems development generally, all of this is in C/C++, and will be for the forseeable future. That is a lot of lines of code, but mostly invisible to people whose role in the industry is "full stack development" type jobs.
- fortran77 6y ago
  I do most of my work in C/C++. There's a ton of it in every microwave oven, washing machine, car, telephone, device driver, etc.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Likewise, my day job has been C++ for the last decade. And it's not just in devices or games, or in OSs. Before I worked in hardware devices I worked in video pipeline stuff in Google Fiber. And before that, I worked on the ad serving stack at Google and another company before that. All in C++. A good portion of servers @ Google are in C++. Now, if you strictly interpret the "C" in this popularity nonsense as "C", then sure. Pure ANSI C has a fairly restrictive use environment. But "C/C++" is a much much larger ecosystem. Also get a laugh out of the people here calling C "simple". Ho boy.

mschuetz 6y ago

> based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide So I guess it just doesn't count JS developers as skilled engineers?