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Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies

232 points by ALee 6y ago

vikramkr 6y ago
Its a shame that people insist on dragging their prejudices halfway across the world instead of leaving them behind - just human nature I guess. Im glad there's litigation happening now. Drag it to the surface and expose it so we can kill it. Prejudice is bad for society and bad for business. It is making decisions based on inaccurate assumptions, and its failing to value talent appropriately. It's sacrificing competitiveness by allowing for bad decision making. Its also morally wrong, but I think the competitiveness argument is gonna be the more convincing one. Let's leave caste in the last century where it belongs.
- ohyes 6y ago
  Kinda depressing that marketplace efficiency is more compelling than moral/ethical good, but I guess it is a sign of the times.
  - __s 6y ago
    Always has been
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    In cases like this where marketplace efficiency is aligned with moral good, I think we should embrace using it as a tool/weapon to accomplish the moral good. You've got to use the tools you got, and I don't see using capitalistic means to argue for ending discrimination as automatically meaning you personally value markets more than morals. Markets are a tool. When I use a power drill to drill a hole - it's not really about the drill - it's about wanting the hole. Same idea.
  - pembrook 6y ago
    Marketplace efficiency is a moral good. The more efficiently we allocate resources, the more we lift people out of poverty around the globe. Increasing marketplace efficiency is the headline story of the last 100 years of human history. Billions of people are now living indoors with electricity, have running water, reliable food supply chains, and are killing each other less due to marketplace efficiency. You won’t hear that story on the news of course.
    - abyssin 6y ago
      Is it market efficiency or is it cheap energy?
      - tasuki 6y ago
        Where does cheap energy come from?
        abyssin 6y ago
        From vast, non renewable natural stocks found in the ground.
    - shi314 6y ago
      What if increasing marketplace efficiency is just a by product instead of cause of great change? I mean main objective of business is wealth maximisation of shareholders and management (in modern times). It has nothing to do with efficient allocation of resources. The country that alleviated most people from poverty is a communist country. Communism uplifted a poor nation Russia to become one of the Superpower in 20th century.
      - pembrook 6y ago
        You may want to check where you got your history information from. You're correct, the country that alleviated the most from poverty is a communist country. But it wasn't Russia. It was China. And China did it by privatizing and opening up its markets to capitalism (and by capturing the subsequent efficiency gains). Not by command-and-control allocation of resources by a central body. China lifted roughly 850 million out of extreme poverty over the past 30 years according to the World Bank...more than the 6X the population of Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China Yes, the main objective of business is wealth maximization. But to create wealth (without stealing it), you must create value for other people. Theft is a zero sum game. Value creation is not. The search to create value by millions of different individual actors is how resources are so much more efficiently allocated in free market economies. Russia has still reduced poverty by roughly 10-20% since the fall of the USSR via more open markets. The reason this number isn't even larger, is because of widespread theft (see the above paragraph) by a corrupt oligarch class. This is super common in any country with lots of oil and no democracy (ask Venezuela for more info).
- afandian 6y ago
  Speaking about dragging prejudices half way across the world, the British administration seem to be responsible in large part for this legacy. It's not just "an Indian thing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#During_British_rule_(1857_to_1947) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#During_B... (edit: why not read the Wikipedia article, it's a matter of fact)
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    Edit: before downvoting the comment I'm replying to - this is actually a pretty well known scholarly thing - not a fringe conspiracy theory. The British created a legal system that crystallized caste into law using their own interpretation of caste and class, and that system did not reflect whatever existed before. That's not to say they invented caste, but the modern form definitely was implemented by them. It definitely is. They made it rigid (and potentially even made up parts of it - it's hard to tell exactly since the brits kept the records...) and enforced it in law as a part of their usual divide and conquer/put a a selected minority on top so they're loyal to you strategy (like [edit: Belgians] likely did in Rwanda). And now you've got a ton of Indians parroting stuff about caste that's not even obviously a an original pre-colonial part of Indian culture in any obvious way. Even the section in the vedas about castes/varnas coming from different parts of the body doesn't have 100% scholarly consensus of being original[0]. It's a mess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)#The_Vedas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)#The_Vedas
    - mssundaram 6y ago
      I have argued this same point on HN before and even an Indian didn't believe me. It's very deep rooted misunderstanding
    - iguy 6y ago
      This is indeed a common point of view among some scholars. But scholarship on such things tends to be very politicised. If the essence of caste is about who you marry, then we now have excellent genetic evidence that it was a very big deal long before any Europeans showed up. It's simply not factual to claim that it arrived on a boat. (There are of course regional gradients and class gradients in English patterns of descent over the last millennium, but nothing like the archipelago of India.)
cushychicken 6y ago
I find the underlying question of this issue fascinating and challenging. Where is the right place to draw the line between your state's civic values, and respect for traditions that are not strictly yours? Are you bound to honor cultural traditions that are outside your laws and norms for civic rights and presence? On the one hand, the caste system is one of those things that many non-Indian people seem to be willing to come out and condemn. Frankly, it seems awful to me, and fundamentally at odds with a lot of human and civic rights norms in America. At the same time, however, it's a tradition from a society that is very different from the one in which I was raised. I don't feel like I'm educated enough to judge it thoroughly. See also: France, and the ongoing Dialogue with Muslim communities regarding headscarves.
- quackquackquack 6y ago
  I was born in India, am of Indian Brahmin (i.e. the "top" caste) blood, and all I can say is this: The caste system is a disgrace to India and I fully condemn it as an Indian. I hope this kind of shit can be abolished not only in Silicon Valley but in India as well.
  - cushychicken 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing your perspective. It seems like an awful thing to endure. I do, however, want to be sensitive to the fact that it may have some secondary effects that I'm not aware of, having never experienced firsthand.
    - yandie 6y ago
      How can you justify discrimination based on somebody's origin in any modern society? What kind of negative "secondary effects" that anti-discrimination would bring to a society? It's not like this is a small country or the first time we're talking about this issue.
    - jjeaff 6y ago
      Slavery was also a cultural say of life in America many places all over the world. There were probably secondary effects. But that doesn't matter because the practice is and always was, objectively evil.
mc32 6y ago
This is to be expected. People will bring over their culture to wherever they move. The only counter to this is cultural integration; however, some people will see that as cultural imperialism, or whatever other name is current. The same issue is seen in Africa when new populations move into non traditional areas and bring their customs. If they are dispersed and don’t clump ala enclaves, they adopt local culture, but if they form enclaves and only hang out with others from their origin they just continue what they knew. In the US so long as immigration was “stretched out” it allowed for slow integration. The speed of growth though allows for the culture migrate along with the population. That’s just how it works. An additional “phenomenon” is usually the transplanted population changes more slowly than the home population.
luminati 6y ago
Mods, already discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24657737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24657737
leoc 6y ago
It's a fun fact not generally known that Ireland has its own Dalits: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-co-galway-house-purchased-by-council-for-traveller-family-1.4342767 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-... .
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > It's a fun fact not generally known that Ireland has its own Dalits: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-... . Yeah, no. You can't really claim that the treatment of the Dalits in India and the Irish travellers Ireland is somehow equivalent, that's simply a lie. The racism of the Caste system in India and its violence has absolutely no equivalent in the West today. Even Roma in Europe are treated better all things considered and it a low standard.
  - iguy 6y ago
    The Roma are much closer to a caste, as far as I know. I mean in terms of their history & behaviour (for want of a better word): the borders of who is & isn't a traveller have been more porous over time, while I think the Roma have been about as isolated as any other Indian caste. (But not an expert, and don't have data to hand.)
    - fmajid 6y ago
      The Roma are originally from Punjab in India.
  - olivermarks 6y ago
    I have a big problem with the word 'lie' here. Make an argument but don't just say 'no, it's a lie'
    - throw_m239339 6y ago
      I don't have a problem with the word I used. These situations are not equivalent at all, why bring that here when it's has absolutely nothing to do with topic at hand? in a dubious attempt at whataboutism? I stand by what I said.
chanakya 6y ago
In recent times, I've seen several news stories of widespread caste discrimination in Silicon Valley, but the standard of evidence by which this is claimed seems to be poor. It's basically asking people who claim they've been hurt or discriminated against. The only actual legal case in all these stories is the one against Cisco, and that's still in progress. Of course there will be casteists among the Indians in the Bay Area (India has enormous numbers of them). But it's not clear they have any ability to inflict discrimination on the lower castes. If they do, I haven't seen evidence of it. Stories claim that lower-caste employees have had their Indian upper caste managers discriminate, hurt their careers and even sexually harrass them, but HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category. I work in Silicon Valley, and have a hard time with this picture of the culture and HR departments in the area.
- suyash 6y ago
  yes, in the era of fake news, what can you expect. Working in SV as an Indian person, never heard or experienced it.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Things that I don't experience don't exist. Reporting on things I don't experience is fake news.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - iamshs 6y ago
    >Joshi. With that surname you will not experience it either in your lifetime, mate.
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      What’s your name?
blocked_again 6y ago
One of the thing that the Indian government can do to reduce this issue is to ban caste related surnames. Like you can literally tell the caste of a person from their surname. Its insane that no ruling part had the guts to ban that. A large parts of population in South Indian states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala no longer have surnames that are tied to the caste. Mostly because of the people deciding to do that by themselves. But the issue is very very bad in Northern states which is where the majority of the population lives.
- YetAnotherNick 6y ago
  Almost all of the major surnames can be linked to the caste. Nowadays many people of all the castes have started using caste neutral surnames. Banning the use of any caste related surnames is too much I guess. But people should be allowed to use any surnames.
  - notRobot 6y ago
    > But people should be allowed to use any surnames. Is this not currently the case?
    - YetAnotherNick 6y ago
      Legally yes, but there is some judgement involved in changing the surname.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Somewhat tangential but in Korea people used to buy in to higher prestige surnames which has resulted in the great majority of people sharing a couple handful of surnames.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > Nowadays many people of all the castes have started using caste neutral surnames. As someone very ignorant of that whole issue, if it's that simple, why doesn't the lower caste(s) always do that? Why "nowadays" only "many" do?
giantg2 6y ago
A similar sort of thing exist at most companies in one form or another. For example, at my company some people's opinions are valued more than others. People base their evaluation of others on communal opinion which can contain discriminatory trends. It produces a strata within the organization whether that opinion comes from a last name or heritage, or some other trait like sex, accent, philosophy, etc.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > For example, at my company some people's opinions are valued more than others At your company people with lighter skins are more valued than others? Because that's what we're talking here in regard to Indian castes. Please name your company.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    I'd like to keep my job, so I can't say the name. It is in the financial services industry. There is discrimination on sex. You can also see that there are very few people of different ethnic backgrounds in positions of leadership. I've had other people with more tenure than me state that if you have specific qualities, you are likely to go farther (white/Irish decent, male, catholic). Also, what we are talking about is the discriminatory stratification of a group (company or country).
    - PTOB 6y ago
      How the world turns! 100 years ago, an Irish last name in America would relegate you to menial labor with no hope of advancement. Being Catholic (at least in the Sourther USA) would land you with a cross burning in your yard at night.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Yep. It's all based on the current people or group of people in power. It seems that if you want to be CEO at my company, you must be a male of Irish decent (all the CEOs of the past 30-40 years have been, maybe even for the complete history of the company and I know who the next one is planned/rumored to be and he fits that too). I'm sure there are still areas or companies that do discriminate the other direction too.
galkk 6y ago
> Sometimes they might even suggest going for a swim. What do they expect to see?
- bamurphymac1 6y ago
  Going to expose my ignorance but I read a similar story of people giving back massages to feel for some kind of necklace or undergarment that indicates caste position. I forget know the details I’m sure someone can correct me.
  - iamshs 6y ago
    >Other tests include patting an Indian man on the back to see whether he is wearing a “sacred thread” worn by some Brahmins, the highest-ranked caste. (This gesture is sometimes referred to as the “Tam-Bram pat,” in reference to Tamil-speaking Brahmins.) https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-...
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    Indian Brahmins wear a thread across IF they are religious. Indian women don’t wear it. Not all Hindus were it. Wearing that thread means the person upholds certain rituals and dietary restrictions. They fast on certain days and have to offer prayers to their ancestors. They change it once a year. It is religiously required to change it with other men of your faith and sub-sect(like a Jewish minyan). All Hindus and even women wore sacred thread at one time because it was necessary for rituals and for performing death austerities. But Brahmins had more duties towards it. They have to pray thrice a day touching it. They have to fast and follow ritual purity because the thread is what connects them and their families to their ancestors. If you see it..it will be knotted sometimes or have stuff tied to it. It is code for whether one is married or not. How many children they have..if their parents are deceased or not etc. And that’s why there is so much secrecy and protectiveness around who has ownership and scholarship over which books. Don’t you see? Vedic Hinduism was the woke liberal version and an experiment of an ancient people who wanted to bring the immigrants and the invaders and the local population, but membership means adherence to a closed group. The rituals were perimeter security. There are four main books of faith for Hindu Brahmins. They are called Vedas. Three of which are commonly followed. Parts of the fourth one is lost. Vedas are canon. It doesn’t change. A Brahmin belongs to a group that follows one of the three books. You can’t follow more than one and the belief is that all those who follow that particular book share the same pool ancestral souls. Even prayers differ between them. Their way of life too. If you read the vedas, it’s about the way of life. There is no mention of god. But there are some puranas(stories derived from commentaries based on the vedas), you would find stuff like tax codes. How to eat, how you farm, how to create weapons..where the borders are ..when will the eclipses occur etc. these are not for public consumption and to share. This had to stay within the insiders only. It was memorized by the Brahmin priests and they knew how to decide the ciphers because their duty was towards the kingly caste. In the olden days, if anyone can read it..it’s like allowing anyone to read classified files. Ancient India was super codified. There was a place for everyone in terms of what dharma or job they have to do. It’s rigidity also gave it stability. But also made it brittle. Anything that influences from the outside thus structure would weaken it. That was the reason behind the closed looo socio economic system. Clearly it lost its usefulness. With the British abolishing princely states, an entire class of Kshatriyas disappeared. It’s like a table standing on three legs. Brahmins who were supposed to be in service of Kshatriyas became redundant too. The balance used to be that Brahmin priests had knowledge but must take a vow of poverty..Kshatriya Kings must rule the country and be ready to die for their people..Vaishyas were wealthy but must fund the kingdom by paying taxes and bearing all the costs while the labourer Shudra class did manual work and contributed nothing else. Dalits were outside this system. They were the outsiders who didn’t subscribe to this social order. The Vedas say that a Brahmin ceases to be a Brahmin when he crosses the oceans. Everything we do here as immigrants are either religious or nostalgia. The mathematician Srinivasan Ramanujam refused to set sail to England because he was a Brahmin and crossing the oceans meant that he has abandoned the religion of his forefathers. SV Brahmins still consider themselves Brahmins...but when they step away from their practices (a lot of it defined by the sacred thread), they are Mlecchas themselves within each other. A Brahmin not wearing the thread won’t be invited to the annual thread changing ceremonies. Why? It has nothing to do with him. Just like a Dalit or a white person has nothing to do with a brahmin’s religious activities. Women have identifying jewelery too. At least in the south, look at the marriage chain they wear (because we don’t have wedding rings), you can find out what kind of family she is married to and even within Brahmins, you can figure out which region they hail from and which broad subsect they belong to. Why? Because women had rules too. For example, there is a Brahmin sub sect where they have marks on their shoulders. Like a quick branding of a religious symbol. If a woman has these ritual marks on her body, she will not eat in anyone’s house. She will not allow anyone into her kitchen..her domain. Except other women who have that branding too. Because now only those who follow the kitchen code have access to it. I am a Brahmin but I was not allowed kitchen access into many of my friends home kitchens after a certain age.(children are exempt from these rules) I had my own set of utensils when the mom of the house invited me to join me for family lunches. It was beautiful sterling silver and expensive, but it was meant for guests. We just laughed about it because we knew why. Even my mother was given the special ‘separate tableware’ treatment despite being a Brahmin who also followed religious and ritual purity. Because she was not from that family. I can tell within 30 minutes where another indian is from ..language, food, clothes, jewelery. Even the dot we wear between our brows. Men have less distinguishers in their western office wear. And yes, it’s important for me to connect to people just like me. Why? Because I am human. I seek comfort with my kin. Doesn’t mean I am a casteist. There is meta to this too...for example, there are many subjects I won’t speak to men that I would with other women easily. Why? Because as opposite gendered individuals, we don’t have shared experiences and sometimes one just wants to feel comfortable with someone who understands. I don’t have the time and energy or money to seek a $250/hour therapist to ‘talk about things’. I want community. If I want to talk about my mom, I will call my cousin. Not my co worker.
olivermarks 6y ago
I've been around silicon valley for decades. Caste discrimination hasn't 'arrived', it's been there for as long as I can remember. Ask any Indian and they will tell you all about it. What they may not tell you is how hiring often is within certain ethnic demographics, also sometimes the case with eastern and central europeans.
carapace 6y ago
ORT (Only Read Title) I thought this would be about SV's own caste system, but it's actually about Indians' caste system.
Fezzik 6y ago
Prior related discussion with a lot of interesting comments (and a top comment with links to even more previous discussion of the issue): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047
OzzyB 6y ago
You know, one thing that might help us outsiders is, what actually is the caste system? Is it based on race (skin color), lineage (surnames) or some geographical criteria (article mentioned "do you swim" like maybe being near the ocean means you're better off or something)?! Seriously, what are the hierarchical structures and how deep does it go.
- maxlamb 6y ago
  Here's a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
- fmajid 6y ago
  Profession, correlated with race and genetics.
rayiner 6y ago
I don't doubt this sort of discrimination happens, but is there some sort of data to suggest this is more than isolated? I'm not Indian but rather Bangladeshi (the low-caste Indians who converted to Islam to get out of the caste system, lol). And I've met the occasional proud Brahmin, but in decades of living here I've never heard of caste discrimination being some sort of systemic thing. And yet I've seen like dozens of articles on this all of the sudden. I'm not endorsing the idea of "isolated incidents" in general! But you can look at data to show that disparities in how certain groups are treated--e.g. employers being less willing to call back candidates with "Black" names on their resume. But extrapolating from the Cisco lawsuit to a narrative about a larger problem in Silicon Valley can have ugly consequences. It can be flipped around to broadly paint Indians who are in leadership positions in Silicon Valley in a bad light.
- _pmf_ 6y ago
  > is there some sort of data to suggest this is more than isolated prejudices Nobody seems to ask this question about the apparently rampant racism in the US.
  - didibus 6y ago
    Even isolated prejudices can lead to systematic issues, so even if it was, it would be a problem. For example, if key individuals in certain positions hold the prejudices, it can have a systematic effect, since they have a lot of influence on the design of the systems in place and can easily create an unfair distribution of other people in charge/not in charge.
  - crazygringo 6y ago
    > Nobody seems to ask this question about the apparently rampant racism in the US I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but in case you're not from the US and genuinely confused about this... there are mountains of data on systemic racism precisely because it's one of the biggest questions. Academic journals are full of answers, not to mention endless books.
  - garyfirestorm 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
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pvsukale3 6y ago
This is shameful. I thought Indian American community had moved on from things like these. I suppose there will always be some people who do these kind of things. These things are rampant in India at the time of marriages. Some parents in India emotionally blackmail their children into marrying into their own caste. Sometimes people have to marry into their own subcast. (I am talking about people being forced to marry against their will and give up on love)
morpheus1729 6y ago
Well thankfully it is acknowledged as a problem. Caste is a big issue in India and sadly, its being carried to the US.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
The popularity of the Indian version is a gift of spite from the British colonial rulers before they quit the subcontinent after successfully splitting into many nations with their only strategy ‘divide and rule’. I literally don’t know even one culture or country that doesn’t follow its own version of caste system. To understand it and get rid of it, we have to ask why it is able to survive. I am from the sub continent. We are a billion plus people beating the same name. We have hundreds of languages. I am certainly going to ask anyone who calls themselves an Indian to figure out if they are my kin. Why? Because as an immigrant in a foreign land, I want to be friends with someone like me. I can’t be friendly to the millions of Indian immigrants. I want to hang around with someone with whom I share more things Indian because I miss home sometimes. I miss the language, the food, the smells of a Hindu Brahmin kitchen and all the things that reminds me of my community. That’s not castesim. To equate this to casteism makes a mockery of the horrors and injustices of caste system. No. There is no caste system amongst Indians in the Bay Area. We should ALL be grateful to be living during these times. It’s infinitely better than how our ancestors were living. It can get even better. Mockery. This lawsuit makes a mockery of the ancestors of CA Dalits who have had the opportunity to step outside of the system and still engaging in this sort of manufactured divisiveness. Dalits were not part of the varna system in India. The texts say that there were four castes and everyone else was considered an ‘outsider’. The word ‘Mleccha’ means outsider and that included anyone who didn’t follow the structure of society with the four castes. People with unfamiliar behaviour and different food habits. The Greeks for example were Mlecchas. The Dalits and possibly the local tribes were Mleccha too. They were excluded and when the people who formed the Hindu society became dominant, the local population were at the fringes of society but now dependent on a domainant society that rejects them. India has thousands and thousands of years of history and so many migrations and invasions. It is insane to look at caste system from that framework. 1. Is the social structure in India problematic? Yes. 2. Is something being done to rectify it in India? Yes. 3. Does it have anything to do with indian immigrants in Silicon Valley? No. The very term ‘tam-bram’ pat is offensive. Not all non Dalits are Brahmins and not all Brahmins are tamilian. The state of CA is suing Cisco. That by itself goes to show that this lawsuit is politically energized and has no legs to stand on. For shame!
- jonsno56 6y ago
iandanforth 6y ago
This is one area I'm grateful for my own ignorance. I feel like not knowing about this system helps protect me from unconscious bias. The flipside of course is that I'm likely blind to discrimination if it's happening around me.
one2know 6y ago
If US corporations actually followed the law and were held to account by a functioning government this wouldn't be an issue. This is only an issue because EEOC is only followed when it is useful to their leftist management. Otherwise, in the name of D&I, we get companies in the US mainland that are 97% Indian nationals on H1B. That can't happen in a fully functional US corporation that is following the law where laws are enforced. So it is really pointless to point out caste discrimination when US corporations are lawless and the US government is powerless.
joshenders 6y ago
Wow, this needs to be more widely discussed. This is eye opening. I’ve definitely seen this “dance” going on between new Indian coworkers and could detect there was some shared knowledge I was missing but had no idea what it meant, what was going on, or if it was friendly or not. (Especially the vegetarian question and asking if “that was out of choice or cultural”. I figured this was dog whistling to religious affiliation and felt uncomfortable about it but regrettably just stayed out of it.) I want to apologize to my Indian coworkers and especially directs, that I was so naive to this. You absolutely do not deserve this kind of treatment anywhere but especially the US and immigration status really compounds this and makes this oppressive. I am absolutely going to be more aware and diligent about this and raise flags when I see it going forward. Not okay. I am so sorry.
- codegeek 6y ago
  "Especially the vegetarian question" That question has nothing to do with Caste specifically. It is more of a thing between North and South Indians where North Indians are usually more of a meat eater than South but again it depends on the region. Plenty of North Indians are hardcore Vegetarian. It has nothing to do with caste or religious affiliation. Being a vegetarian in general is looked down upon even in America, isn't it ? Go watch the movie "escape plan" where schwarzenegger says "You hit like a vegetarian". Also the vegetarian question comes up with Indians because it is difficult to go to a non Indian Restaurant with hardcore vegetarians as they may not find many options. So when a group of Indian coworkers go out to eat, they have to know who are hardcore vegetarians and choose a restaurant accordingly.
  - morpheus1729 6y ago
    Asking the question tells the intent of it. Thats where it starts. All discriminations start with innocuous questions only.
    - codegeek 6y ago
      I am not saying caste discrimination doesn't exist. But as an Indian American living in the United States for 20 years, I can tell you that I have never seen/experienced/practiced it here in the US and I will not let anyone do it either on my team (I run a company) or personal family/friends. Having said that, it is a very common joke among a group of Indians when they get together about the whole "vegetarian" vs "non vegetarian" thing. You can argue that it is bad to joke about this topic but it has nothing to do with caste or religion. That's what I am saying.
skruban 6y ago
As a Singaporean Indian (Tamil) I've always found caste identity talk in the US/India very intriguing. I've never heard caste mentioned here in SG; in fact I don't even know what caste I'm from. How would one identify your caste? Can't those from a lower caste just claim that they are brahmins?
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  > How would one identify your caste? That can be generally done by checking what traditions one follows. For example, Brahmins are supposed to be involved with all priestly work and a strict Brahmin does not eat meat and wears Janeu[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana
- nodelessness 6y ago
  Also Tamil. Your cousin's brother in law's sister's mother in law will attest to your caste whatever that caste is. They check for who you are related to and know knows you who belongs to X caste.
- fmajid 6y ago
  As Dravidians your people have been on the receiving end of caste imposed by Aryans, so unless you were Brahmins they did not have the same incentives to preserve the system once they left the suffocating environment of India.
thecleaner 6y ago
This story and related stories seem very coordinated. Also its not "richest tech companies", its just one incident at Cisco so the title of the story is really misleading. However, if anyone is found actually discriminating against an employee in terms of opportunities, I hope the law against bias gets enforced.
pkd 6y ago
This seems to have gained quite a lot of popularity. I think it's the third time I've seen this on the HN front page in the last month. Although I find it abominable that even one person has carried their discrimination with them, I'm also surprised that this is a pattern. I've been in North America for about 4 years now and the only times caste has come up as a topic is westerners being curious about it. Also not all Brahmins wear the thread on their shoulders and not everybody who wears it is a Brahmin, so it's a poor test.
- pkphilip 6y ago
  I am sorry but non-brahmins typically do not wear the thread. The thread ceremonies will not be held if you are not a brahmin.
  - qart 6y ago
    Please stop. I have attended Vaishya thread ceremonies myself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana
  - pratik661 6y ago
    I'm a non Brahmin who has had the thread ceremony. I used to wear the thread (I don't anymore because I'm not really religious and its too much of a hassle...)
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    Yes, they do. Every one of the four castes can wear the thread. Brahmins do not have a choice. But others have a choice joy to wear it.
ggffhjjggff 6y ago
Where did you grow up? What do your parents do? Where did you go to University? It’s nothing new. It’s just not the western culture’s version.
unionjack22 6y ago
I’m curious whether there’s data showing the age breakdown of the perpetrators and victims in these cases and whether the rise of Hindu nationalism contributed to an increase.
oh_sigh 6y ago
What would be the consequences for, say, a dalit who role played as a Brahmin? Tell everyone his last name is X, wear the white string things, etc?
- green-bottle 6y ago
  If you are living in the more progressive parts of the country (generally more urban) being found out things will make things... awkward. Not in the sense that there will be consequences, but you will have aired out your insecurities to others.
jackfoxy 6y ago
> The case involves an all-Indian team of employees at Cisco Systems' headquarters in San Jose... If the government is going to make a discrimination case, shouldn't it be higher up the equal outcome ladder than caste?
ajju 6y ago
My personal experience, admittedly anecdotal, for context: My cofounder and I have started 2 businesses together, across 11 years and I have no idea what his caste is. Of the 50+ Indians who work at our company I think I know the caste of two of them - because of a shared family last name. In my 17 years in the workforce working as an Indian with Indians in America, I have only once heard someone mention their own caste - which was to share A personal account of discrimination the previous generation of their family faced in India a few decades ago. Having said that, caste discrimination is alive and well in large pockets of ignorance in India and the larger a group of people the higher the likelihood of ignorance and bias. Given the sad history around caste in India, this is not a problem to ignore.
- fmajid 6y ago
  I know a Brahmin gentleman of my parents' generation, living in the US for decades. He was plenty fond of steak, until his kids got to marriage age, at which point he became vegetarian. He made it clear non-Brahmins would not be acceptable matches for his kids. So it may not be a big deal for your group, but it may be for others.
jcims 6y ago
This isn’t the only caste system in SV.
HariPavan 6y ago
Caste discrimination is even written in Mahabharata too. Do you guys think this caste discrimination in India and Indians is going away soon? I don't think so.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  All Brahmins worship gods who are non-Brahmins in their avatar. To say that Brahmins practice caste discrimination is to say that Brahmins discriminate against their own gods. Doesn’t compute.
yalogin 6y ago
I am sympathetic to the cause but it seems like the Cisco incident is the only one being cited and it’s making the rounds every few weeks. Any sort of discrimination is terrible but this is getting disproportionately more attention than the other problems in the country.
chenpengcheng 6y ago
a blue wave is coming
amriksohata 6y ago
Indian lived in India for many years and in the UK. Never been subjected to caste discrimination or seen it, only heard the odd jokes in Punjabi songs, Jatt ones but never seen high caste Rajputs, Brahmins etc say anything. If anything I think the problem is economic background, its always money that determines real status and that too the poorer suffer most.
merricksb 6y ago
Other discussions about this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 (358 points/4 months ago/606 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 (84 points/3 months ago/58 comments)
bu600 6y ago
There is a narrative in the comments that the British have to be burdened with the majority of the blame for the malaise of the caste system. Here is a young untouchable girl's article in 1855 that sheds a light on the brutal oppression and subjugation that was already deeply ingrained in Indian society, and how the British introduced some balance. https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/ https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-fema... From the article: The Mang and Mahar children never dare lodge a complaint even if the Brahman children throw stones at them and injure them seriously. They suffer silently because they know they have to go to the Brahmans’ houses to beg for the leftover food. Alas! O God! What agony this! I will burst into tears if I write more about this injustice. Because of such oppression, the merciful God has bestowed on us, this benevolent British government. Let us see how our pain has been mitigated under this government. Earlier, Gokhale, Apate, Trimkaji, Andhala, Pansara, Kale, Behre, etc [all Brahman surnames], who showed their bravery by killing rats in their homes, persecuted us, not sparing even pregnant women, without any rhyme or reason. This has stopped now. Harassment and torture of Mahars and Mangs, common during the rule of Peshwas in Pune, have stopped. Now, human sacrifice for the foundation of forts and mansions has stopped – now, nobody buries us alive. Now, our population is growing in numbers. Earlier, if any Mahar or Mang wore fine clothes, they would say that only Brahmans should wear such clothes. Seen in fine clothes, we were earlier accused of stealing such clothes. Their religion was in danger of being polluted when Untouchables put clothes around their bodies; they would tie them to a tree and punish them. But, under British rule, anybody with money can buy and wear clothes. Earlier, punishment for any wrongdoing against the upper castes was to behead the guilty Untouchable— now, it has stopped. Excessive and exploitative tax has stopped. The practice of untouchability has stopped in some places. Killing has stopped on the playground. Now, we can even visit the marketplace.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
https://hssh.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/hssh/article/download/40067/36268 https://hssh.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/hssh/article/downlo... Caste Confusion and Census Enumeration in Colonial India, 1871-1921 Pretty illuminating..about the British understanding of caste and how they conducted their census. [..] Caste data also failed to meet the goals of uniformity and comparability. Most Muslims listed their caste even though they were assumed not to have one. Part of this confusion was due to enumerators not following instructions: “the enumerators must understand that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Caste Classification, this will be done afterwards by the Compilers, and, in this column, they are to enter the Caste or Class as it is given to them by, or for, each individual.”41 Another problem with knowledge of India that emerged through this process was that local colonial officials patterned their own cate- gorization on pre-existing understandings of caste, which were not nationally consistent. From these data, Waterfield could only conclude that the “caste system is perhaps as prevalent among the Mahomedans as among those pro- fessing the Hindoo religion.”42 Even Christians listed their caste, Waterfield lamented, which led him to explain that those who did list their caste must be Hindoo converts. In addition to people’s skill at manipulating the caste lists were the highly dis- 43 44 no sides in these feuds. Waterfield concluded that the main problems with caste calculations were “due partly to the intrinsic difficulties on the subject, and partly to the absence of a uniform plan of classification.”46 Commenting on the 1871 census effort, C. Elliot, Secretary to Government for the Northwestern Provinces, wrote: [T]he caste statistics are the most unsatisfactory part of the return. Greater accu- racy than before has been aimed at, and probably obtained, but still there is much error and confusion in the figures. A really scientific and sound classification is hardly possible in the face of the general ignorance of this subject which prevails among the people themselves, the frequency with which the same caste is called by different names in different places, and the tendency to confuse caste with occupa- 47 Frustrations in the first set of censuses stemmed from procedural problems compounded by the lack of suitable conceptualization. The grand expectation that colonial census commissioners would need only to collate caste data was thwarted by widespread uncertainty in India about what caste was.[..] [..] There was also growing unrest concerning caste categories among India scholars and activists. By the time of India’s third national census in 1891, “many Indian political activists had become extremely census-savvy and were beginning to debate the definitions of the terms being used to describe them.”63 The fact that the census introduced new labels for various groups did not automatically transform Indian reality. There is evidence, however, to suggest that people were subscribing to census definitions and that they attached impor- tance to how they were classified. Quite often, to the irritation of enumerators, respondents would “describe themselves as anything but what they are.”64 This was the opposite of the sort of self-identification for which census planners had hoped. On this note, J. A. Baines argued in 1899 census correspondence that “I am inclined to advise the omission of caste from the Imperial schedule, and to make use of the returns of 1891 as a standard until 1911.”65 There still remained a great deal of confusion among all involved in the census project about how to classify caste. In his report on the 1891 census of India, E. Maclagan wrote, “The instructions I issued are in many parts word for word the same as those issued in 1881 . . . they were not, however, free from faults . . . the terminology was in many cases different from that of the translation issued to enumerators, and many of the superior officials were much puzzled at the inconsistencies of the two sets of orders.”66 Inefficient enumeration and lack of consensus on a definition of caste fostered more confusion. The tension between the pragmat- ics of administration on the ground and the imperial objectives of accumulating knowledge for the governance of populations led commissioners Plowden and Baines to suggest removing caste from the census.[..]
known 6y ago
"The best way to escape from a problem is to solve it" --Alan Saporta https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1320245884680957952 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1320245884680957952

232 points by ALee 6y ago

Its a shame that people insist on dragging their prejudices halfway across the world instead of leaving them behind - just human nature I guess. Im glad there's litigation happening now. Drag it to the surface and expose it so we can kill it. Prejudice is bad for society and bad for business. It is making decisions based on inaccurate assumptions, and its failing to value talent appropriately. It's sacrificing competitiveness by allowing for bad decision making. Its also morally wrong, but I think the competitiveness argument is gonna be the more convincing one. Let's leave caste in the last century where it belongs.

ohyes 6y ago
Kinda depressing that marketplace efficiency is more compelling than moral/ethical good, but I guess it is a sign of the times.
- __s 6y ago
  Always has been
- vikramkr 6y ago
  In cases like this where marketplace efficiency is aligned with moral good, I think we should embrace using it as a tool/weapon to accomplish the moral good. You've got to use the tools you got, and I don't see using capitalistic means to argue for ending discrimination as automatically meaning you personally value markets more than morals. Markets are a tool. When I use a power drill to drill a hole - it's not really about the drill - it's about wanting the hole. Same idea.
- pembrook 6y ago
  Marketplace efficiency is a moral good. The more efficiently we allocate resources, the more we lift people out of poverty around the globe. Increasing marketplace efficiency is the headline story of the last 100 years of human history. Billions of people are now living indoors with electricity, have running water, reliable food supply chains, and are killing each other less due to marketplace efficiency. You won’t hear that story on the news of course.
  - abyssin 6y ago
    Is it market efficiency or is it cheap energy?
    - tasuki 6y ago
      Where does cheap energy come from?
      - abyssin 6y ago
        From vast, non renewable natural stocks found in the ground.
  - shi314 6y ago
    What if increasing marketplace efficiency is just a by product instead of cause of great change? I mean main objective of business is wealth maximisation of shareholders and management (in modern times). It has nothing to do with efficient allocation of resources. The country that alleviated most people from poverty is a communist country. Communism uplifted a poor nation Russia to become one of the Superpower in 20th century.
    - pembrook 6y ago
      You may want to check where you got your history information from. You're correct, the country that alleviated the most from poverty is a communist country. But it wasn't Russia. It was China. And China did it by privatizing and opening up its markets to capitalism (and by capturing the subsequent efficiency gains). Not by command-and-control allocation of resources by a central body. China lifted roughly 850 million out of extreme poverty over the past 30 years according to the World Bank...more than the 6X the population of Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China Yes, the main objective of business is wealth maximization. But to create wealth (without stealing it), you must create value for other people. Theft is a zero sum game. Value creation is not. The search to create value by millions of different individual actors is how resources are so much more efficiently allocated in free market economies. Russia has still reduced poverty by roughly 10-20% since the fall of the USSR via more open markets. The reason this number isn't even larger, is because of widespread theft (see the above paragraph) by a corrupt oligarch class. This is super common in any country with lots of oil and no democracy (ask Venezuela for more info).
afandian 6y ago
Speaking about dragging prejudices half way across the world, the British administration seem to be responsible in large part for this legacy. It's not just "an Indian thing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#During_British_rule_(1857_to_1947) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#During_B... (edit: why not read the Wikipedia article, it's a matter of fact)
- vikramkr 6y ago
  Edit: before downvoting the comment I'm replying to - this is actually a pretty well known scholarly thing - not a fringe conspiracy theory. The British created a legal system that crystallized caste into law using their own interpretation of caste and class, and that system did not reflect whatever existed before. That's not to say they invented caste, but the modern form definitely was implemented by them. It definitely is. They made it rigid (and potentially even made up parts of it - it's hard to tell exactly since the brits kept the records...) and enforced it in law as a part of their usual divide and conquer/put a a selected minority on top so they're loyal to you strategy (like [edit: Belgians] likely did in Rwanda). And now you've got a ton of Indians parroting stuff about caste that's not even obviously a an original pre-colonial part of Indian culture in any obvious way. Even the section in the vedas about castes/varnas coming from different parts of the body doesn't have 100% scholarly consensus of being original[0]. It's a mess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)#The_Vedas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)#The_Vedas
  - mssundaram 6y ago
    I have argued this same point on HN before and even an Indian didn't believe me. It's very deep rooted misunderstanding
  - iguy 6y ago
    This is indeed a common point of view among some scholars. But scholarship on such things tends to be very politicised. If the essence of caste is about who you marry, then we now have excellent genetic evidence that it was a very big deal long before any Europeans showed up. It's simply not factual to claim that it arrived on a boat. (There are of course regional gradients and class gradients in English patterns of descent over the last millennium, but nothing like the archipelago of India.)

cushychicken 6y ago

I find the underlying question of this issue fascinating and challenging. Where is the right place to draw the line between your state's civic values, and respect for traditions that are not strictly yours? Are you bound to honor cultural traditions that are outside your laws and norms for civic rights and presence? On the one hand, the caste system is one of those things that many non-Indian people seem to be willing to come out and condemn. Frankly, it seems awful to me, and fundamentally at odds with a lot of human and civic rights norms in America. At the same time, however, it's a tradition from a society that is very different from the one in which I was raised. I don't feel like I'm educated enough to judge it thoroughly. See also: France, and the ongoing Dialogue with Muslim communities regarding headscarves.

quackquackquack 6y ago
I was born in India, am of Indian Brahmin (i.e. the "top" caste) blood, and all I can say is this: The caste system is a disgrace to India and I fully condemn it as an Indian. I hope this kind of shit can be abolished not only in Silicon Valley but in India as well.
- cushychicken 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing your perspective. It seems like an awful thing to endure. I do, however, want to be sensitive to the fact that it may have some secondary effects that I'm not aware of, having never experienced firsthand.
  - yandie 6y ago
    How can you justify discrimination based on somebody's origin in any modern society? What kind of negative "secondary effects" that anti-discrimination would bring to a society? It's not like this is a small country or the first time we're talking about this issue.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    Slavery was also a cultural say of life in America many places all over the world. There were probably secondary effects. But that doesn't matter because the practice is and always was, objectively evil.

mc32 6y ago

This is to be expected. People will bring over their culture to wherever they move. The only counter to this is cultural integration; however, some people will see that as cultural imperialism, or whatever other name is current. The same issue is seen in Africa when new populations move into non traditional areas and bring their customs. If they are dispersed and don’t clump ala enclaves, they adopt local culture, but if they form enclaves and only hang out with others from their origin they just continue what they knew. In the US so long as immigration was “stretched out” it allowed for slow integration. The speed of growth though allows for the culture migrate along with the population. That’s just how it works. An additional “phenomenon” is usually the transplanted population changes more slowly than the home population.

luminati 6y ago

Mods, already discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24657737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24657737

leoc 6y ago

It's a fun fact not generally known that Ireland has its own Dalits: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-co-galway-house-purchased-by-council-for-traveller-family-1.4342767 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-... .

throw_m239339 6y ago
> It's a fun fact not generally known that Ireland has its own Dalits: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/fire-destroys-... . Yeah, no. You can't really claim that the treatment of the Dalits in India and the Irish travellers Ireland is somehow equivalent, that's simply a lie. The racism of the Caste system in India and its violence has absolutely no equivalent in the West today. Even Roma in Europe are treated better all things considered and it a low standard.
- iguy 6y ago
  The Roma are much closer to a caste, as far as I know. I mean in terms of their history & behaviour (for want of a better word): the borders of who is & isn't a traveller have been more porous over time, while I think the Roma have been about as isolated as any other Indian caste. (But not an expert, and don't have data to hand.)
  - fmajid 6y ago
    The Roma are originally from Punjab in India.
- olivermarks 6y ago
  I have a big problem with the word 'lie' here. Make an argument but don't just say 'no, it's a lie'
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
    I don't have a problem with the word I used. These situations are not equivalent at all, why bring that here when it's has absolutely nothing to do with topic at hand? in a dubious attempt at whataboutism? I stand by what I said.

chanakya 6y ago

In recent times, I've seen several news stories of widespread caste discrimination in Silicon Valley, but the standard of evidence by which this is claimed seems to be poor. It's basically asking people who claim they've been hurt or discriminated against. The only actual legal case in all these stories is the one against Cisco, and that's still in progress. Of course there will be casteists among the Indians in the Bay Area (India has enormous numbers of them). But it's not clear they have any ability to inflict discrimination on the lower castes. If they do, I haven't seen evidence of it. Stories claim that lower-caste employees have had their Indian upper caste managers discriminate, hurt their careers and even sexually harrass them, but HR departments say they can't do anything because caste is not a protected category. I work in Silicon Valley, and have a hard time with this picture of the culture and HR departments in the area.

suyash 6y ago
yes, in the era of fake news, what can you expect. Working in SV as an Indian person, never heard or experienced it.
- root_axis 6y ago
  Things that I don't experience don't exist. Reporting on things I don't experience is fake news.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- iamshs 6y ago
  >Joshi. With that surname you will not experience it either in your lifetime, mate.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    What’s your name?

blocked_again 6y ago

One of the thing that the Indian government can do to reduce this issue is to ban caste related surnames. Like you can literally tell the caste of a person from their surname. Its insane that no ruling part had the guts to ban that. A large parts of population in South Indian states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala no longer have surnames that are tied to the caste. Mostly because of the people deciding to do that by themselves. But the issue is very very bad in Northern states which is where the majority of the population lives.

YetAnotherNick 6y ago
Almost all of the major surnames can be linked to the caste. Nowadays many people of all the castes have started using caste neutral surnames. Banning the use of any caste related surnames is too much I guess. But people should be allowed to use any surnames.
- notRobot 6y ago
  > But people should be allowed to use any surnames. Is this not currently the case?
  - YetAnotherNick 6y ago
    Legally yes, but there is some judgement involved in changing the surname.
- mc32 6y ago
  Somewhat tangential but in Korea people used to buy in to higher prestige surnames which has resulted in the great majority of people sharing a couple handful of surnames.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > Nowadays many people of all the castes have started using caste neutral surnames. As someone very ignorant of that whole issue, if it's that simple, why doesn't the lower caste(s) always do that? Why "nowadays" only "many" do?

giantg2 6y ago

A similar sort of thing exist at most companies in one form or another. For example, at my company some people's opinions are valued more than others. People base their evaluation of others on communal opinion which can contain discriminatory trends. It produces a strata within the organization whether that opinion comes from a last name or heritage, or some other trait like sex, accent, philosophy, etc.

throw_m239339 6y ago
> For example, at my company some people's opinions are valued more than others At your company people with lighter skins are more valued than others? Because that's what we're talking here in regard to Indian castes. Please name your company.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I'd like to keep my job, so I can't say the name. It is in the financial services industry. There is discrimination on sex. You can also see that there are very few people of different ethnic backgrounds in positions of leadership. I've had other people with more tenure than me state that if you have specific qualities, you are likely to go farther (white/Irish decent, male, catholic). Also, what we are talking about is the discriminatory stratification of a group (company or country).
  - PTOB 6y ago
    How the world turns! 100 years ago, an Irish last name in America would relegate you to menial labor with no hope of advancement. Being Catholic (at least in the Sourther USA) would land you with a cross burning in your yard at night.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Yep. It's all based on the current people or group of people in power. It seems that if you want to be CEO at my company, you must be a male of Irish decent (all the CEOs of the past 30-40 years have been, maybe even for the complete history of the company and I know who the next one is planned/rumored to be and he fits that too). I'm sure there are still areas or companies that do discriminate the other direction too.

galkk 6y ago

> Sometimes they might even suggest going for a swim. What do they expect to see?

bamurphymac1 6y ago
Going to expose my ignorance but I read a similar story of people giving back massages to feel for some kind of necklace or undergarment that indicates caste position. I forget know the details I’m sure someone can correct me.
- iamshs 6y ago
  >Other tests include patting an Indian man on the back to see whether he is wearing a “sacred thread” worn by some Brahmins, the highest-ranked caste. (This gesture is sometimes referred to as the “Tam-Bram pat,” in reference to Tamil-speaking Brahmins.) https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-caste-bias-silicon-valley/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/27/indian-...
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Indian Brahmins wear a thread across IF they are religious. Indian women don’t wear it. Not all Hindus were it. Wearing that thread means the person upholds certain rituals and dietary restrictions. They fast on certain days and have to offer prayers to their ancestors. They change it once a year. It is religiously required to change it with other men of your faith and sub-sect(like a Jewish minyan). All Hindus and even women wore sacred thread at one time because it was necessary for rituals and for performing death austerities. But Brahmins had more duties towards it. They have to pray thrice a day touching it. They have to fast and follow ritual purity because the thread is what connects them and their families to their ancestors. If you see it..it will be knotted sometimes or have stuff tied to it. It is code for whether one is married or not. How many children they have..if their parents are deceased or not etc. And that’s why there is so much secrecy and protectiveness around who has ownership and scholarship over which books. Don’t you see? Vedic Hinduism was the woke liberal version and an experiment of an ancient people who wanted to bring the immigrants and the invaders and the local population, but membership means adherence to a closed group. The rituals were perimeter security. There are four main books of faith for Hindu Brahmins. They are called Vedas. Three of which are commonly followed. Parts of the fourth one is lost. Vedas are canon. It doesn’t change. A Brahmin belongs to a group that follows one of the three books. You can’t follow more than one and the belief is that all those who follow that particular book share the same pool ancestral souls. Even prayers differ between them. Their way of life too. If you read the vedas, it’s about the way of life. There is no mention of god. But there are some puranas(stories derived from commentaries based on the vedas), you would find stuff like tax codes. How to eat, how you farm, how to create weapons..where the borders are ..when will the eclipses occur etc. these are not for public consumption and to share. This had to stay within the insiders only. It was memorized by the Brahmin priests and they knew how to decide the ciphers because their duty was towards the kingly caste. In the olden days, if anyone can read it..it’s like allowing anyone to read classified files. Ancient India was super codified. There was a place for everyone in terms of what dharma or job they have to do. It’s rigidity also gave it stability. But also made it brittle. Anything that influences from the outside thus structure would weaken it. That was the reason behind the closed looo socio economic system. Clearly it lost its usefulness. With the British abolishing princely states, an entire class of Kshatriyas disappeared. It’s like a table standing on three legs. Brahmins who were supposed to be in service of Kshatriyas became redundant too. The balance used to be that Brahmin priests had knowledge but must take a vow of poverty..Kshatriya Kings must rule the country and be ready to die for their people..Vaishyas were wealthy but must fund the kingdom by paying taxes and bearing all the costs while the labourer Shudra class did manual work and contributed nothing else. Dalits were outside this system. They were the outsiders who didn’t subscribe to this social order. The Vedas say that a Brahmin ceases to be a Brahmin when he crosses the oceans. Everything we do here as immigrants are either religious or nostalgia. The mathematician Srinivasan Ramanujam refused to set sail to England because he was a Brahmin and crossing the oceans meant that he has abandoned the religion of his forefathers. SV Brahmins still consider themselves Brahmins...but when they step away from their practices (a lot of it defined by the sacred thread), they are Mlecchas themselves within each other. A Brahmin not wearing the thread won’t be invited to the annual thread changing ceremonies. Why? It has nothing to do with him. Just like a Dalit or a white person has nothing to do with a brahmin’s religious activities. Women have identifying jewelery too. At least in the south, look at the marriage chain they wear (because we don’t have wedding rings), you can find out what kind of family she is married to and even within Brahmins, you can figure out which region they hail from and which broad subsect they belong to. Why? Because women had rules too. For example, there is a Brahmin sub sect where they have marks on their shoulders. Like a quick branding of a religious symbol. If a woman has these ritual marks on her body, she will not eat in anyone’s house. She will not allow anyone into her kitchen..her domain. Except other women who have that branding too. Because now only those who follow the kitchen code have access to it. I am a Brahmin but I was not allowed kitchen access into many of my friends home kitchens after a certain age.(children are exempt from these rules) I had my own set of utensils when the mom of the house invited me to join me for family lunches. It was beautiful sterling silver and expensive, but it was meant for guests. We just laughed about it because we knew why. Even my mother was given the special ‘separate tableware’ treatment despite being a Brahmin who also followed religious and ritual purity. Because she was not from that family. I can tell within 30 minutes where another indian is from ..language, food, clothes, jewelery. Even the dot we wear between our brows. Men have less distinguishers in their western office wear. And yes, it’s important for me to connect to people just like me. Why? Because I am human. I seek comfort with my kin. Doesn’t mean I am a casteist. There is meta to this too...for example, there are many subjects I won’t speak to men that I would with other women easily. Why? Because as opposite gendered individuals, we don’t have shared experiences and sometimes one just wants to feel comfortable with someone who understands. I don’t have the time and energy or money to seek a $250/hour therapist to ‘talk about things’. I want community. If I want to talk about my mom, I will call my cousin. Not my co worker.

olivermarks 6y ago

I've been around silicon valley for decades. Caste discrimination hasn't 'arrived', it's been there for as long as I can remember. Ask any Indian and they will tell you all about it. What they may not tell you is how hiring often is within certain ethnic demographics, also sometimes the case with eastern and central europeans.

carapace 6y ago

ORT (Only Read Title) I thought this would be about SV's own caste system, but it's actually about Indians' caste system.

Fezzik 6y ago

Prior related discussion with a lot of interesting comments (and a top comment with links to even more previous discussion of the issue): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047

OzzyB 6y ago

You know, one thing that might help us outsiders is, what actually is the caste system? Is it based on race (skin color), lineage (surnames) or some geographical criteria (article mentioned "do you swim" like maybe being near the ocean means you're better off or something)?! Seriously, what are the hierarchical structures and how deep does it go.

maxlamb 6y ago
Here's a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
fmajid 6y ago
Profession, correlated with race and genetics.

rayiner 6y ago

I don't doubt this sort of discrimination happens, but is there some sort of data to suggest this is more than isolated? I'm not Indian but rather Bangladeshi (the low-caste Indians who converted to Islam to get out of the caste system, lol). And I've met the occasional proud Brahmin, but in decades of living here I've never heard of caste discrimination being some sort of systemic thing. And yet I've seen like dozens of articles on this all of the sudden. I'm not endorsing the idea of "isolated incidents" in general! But you can look at data to show that disparities in how certain groups are treated--e.g. employers being less willing to call back candidates with "Black" names on their resume. But extrapolating from the Cisco lawsuit to a narrative about a larger problem in Silicon Valley can have ugly consequences. It can be flipped around to broadly paint Indians who are in leadership positions in Silicon Valley in a bad light.

_pmf_ 6y ago
> is there some sort of data to suggest this is more than isolated prejudices Nobody seems to ask this question about the apparently rampant racism in the US.
- didibus 6y ago
  Even isolated prejudices can lead to systematic issues, so even if it was, it would be a problem. For example, if key individuals in certain positions hold the prejudices, it can have a systematic effect, since they have a lot of influence on the design of the systems in place and can easily create an unfair distribution of other people in charge/not in charge.
- crazygringo 6y ago
  > Nobody seems to ask this question about the apparently rampant racism in the US I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but in case you're not from the US and genuinely confused about this... there are mountains of data on systemic racism precisely because it's one of the biggest questions. Academic journals are full of answers, not to mention endless books.
- garyfirestorm 6y ago

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pvsukale3 6y ago

This is shameful. I thought Indian American community had moved on from things like these. I suppose there will always be some people who do these kind of things. These things are rampant in India at the time of marriages. Some parents in India emotionally blackmail their children into marrying into their own caste. Sometimes people have to marry into their own subcast. (I am talking about people being forced to marry against their will and give up on love)

morpheus1729 6y ago

Well thankfully it is acknowledged as a problem. Caste is a big issue in India and sadly, its being carried to the US.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

The popularity of the Indian version is a gift of spite from the British colonial rulers before they quit the subcontinent after successfully splitting into many nations with their only strategy ‘divide and rule’. I literally don’t know even one culture or country that doesn’t follow its own version of caste system. To understand it and get rid of it, we have to ask why it is able to survive. I am from the sub continent. We are a billion plus people beating the same name. We have hundreds of languages. I am certainly going to ask anyone who calls themselves an Indian to figure out if they are my kin. Why? Because as an immigrant in a foreign land, I want to be friends with someone like me. I can’t be friendly to the millions of Indian immigrants. I want to hang around with someone with whom I share more things Indian because I miss home sometimes. I miss the language, the food, the smells of a Hindu Brahmin kitchen and all the things that reminds me of my community. That’s not castesim. To equate this to casteism makes a mockery of the horrors and injustices of caste system. No. There is no caste system amongst Indians in the Bay Area. We should ALL be grateful to be living during these times. It’s infinitely better than how our ancestors were living. It can get even better. Mockery. This lawsuit makes a mockery of the ancestors of CA Dalits who have had the opportunity to step outside of the system and still engaging in this sort of manufactured divisiveness. Dalits were not part of the varna system in India. The texts say that there were four castes and everyone else was considered an ‘outsider’. The word ‘Mleccha’ means outsider and that included anyone who didn’t follow the structure of society with the four castes. People with unfamiliar behaviour and different food habits. The Greeks for example were Mlecchas. The Dalits and possibly the local tribes were Mleccha too. They were excluded and when the people who formed the Hindu society became dominant, the local population were at the fringes of society but now dependent on a domainant society that rejects them. India has thousands and thousands of years of history and so many migrations and invasions. It is insane to look at caste system from that framework. 1. Is the social structure in India problematic? Yes. 2. Is something being done to rectify it in India? Yes. 3. Does it have anything to do with indian immigrants in Silicon Valley? No. The very term ‘tam-bram’ pat is offensive. Not all non Dalits are Brahmins and not all Brahmins are tamilian. The state of CA is suing Cisco. That by itself goes to show that this lawsuit is politically energized and has no legs to stand on. For shame!

jonsno56 6y ago

iandanforth 6y ago

This is one area I'm grateful for my own ignorance. I feel like not knowing about this system helps protect me from unconscious bias. The flipside of course is that I'm likely blind to discrimination if it's happening around me.

one2know 6y ago

If US corporations actually followed the law and were held to account by a functioning government this wouldn't be an issue. This is only an issue because EEOC is only followed when it is useful to their leftist management. Otherwise, in the name of D&I, we get companies in the US mainland that are 97% Indian nationals on H1B. That can't happen in a fully functional US corporation that is following the law where laws are enforced. So it is really pointless to point out caste discrimination when US corporations are lawless and the US government is powerless.

joshenders 6y ago

Wow, this needs to be more widely discussed. This is eye opening. I’ve definitely seen this “dance” going on between new Indian coworkers and could detect there was some shared knowledge I was missing but had no idea what it meant, what was going on, or if it was friendly or not. (Especially the vegetarian question and asking if “that was out of choice or cultural”. I figured this was dog whistling to religious affiliation and felt uncomfortable about it but regrettably just stayed out of it.) I want to apologize to my Indian coworkers and especially directs, that I was so naive to this. You absolutely do not deserve this kind of treatment anywhere but especially the US and immigration status really compounds this and makes this oppressive. I am absolutely going to be more aware and diligent about this and raise flags when I see it going forward. Not okay. I am so sorry.

codegeek 6y ago
"Especially the vegetarian question" That question has nothing to do with Caste specifically. It is more of a thing between North and South Indians where North Indians are usually more of a meat eater than South but again it depends on the region. Plenty of North Indians are hardcore Vegetarian. It has nothing to do with caste or religious affiliation. Being a vegetarian in general is looked down upon even in America, isn't it ? Go watch the movie "escape plan" where schwarzenegger says "You hit like a vegetarian". Also the vegetarian question comes up with Indians because it is difficult to go to a non Indian Restaurant with hardcore vegetarians as they may not find many options. So when a group of Indian coworkers go out to eat, they have to know who are hardcore vegetarians and choose a restaurant accordingly.
- morpheus1729 6y ago
  Asking the question tells the intent of it. Thats where it starts. All discriminations start with innocuous questions only.
  - codegeek 6y ago
    I am not saying caste discrimination doesn't exist. But as an Indian American living in the United States for 20 years, I can tell you that I have never seen/experienced/practiced it here in the US and I will not let anyone do it either on my team (I run a company) or personal family/friends. Having said that, it is a very common joke among a group of Indians when they get together about the whole "vegetarian" vs "non vegetarian" thing. You can argue that it is bad to joke about this topic but it has nothing to do with caste or religion. That's what I am saying.

skruban 6y ago

As a Singaporean Indian (Tamil) I've always found caste identity talk in the US/India very intriguing. I've never heard caste mentioned here in SG; in fact I don't even know what caste I'm from. How would one identify your caste? Can't those from a lower caste just claim that they are brahmins?

sbmthakur 6y ago
> How would one identify your caste? That can be generally done by checking what traditions one follows. For example, Brahmins are supposed to be involved with all priestly work and a strict Brahmin does not eat meat and wears Janeu[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana
nodelessness 6y ago
Also Tamil. Your cousin's brother in law's sister's mother in law will attest to your caste whatever that caste is. They check for who you are related to and know knows you who belongs to X caste.
fmajid 6y ago
As Dravidians your people have been on the receiving end of caste imposed by Aryans, so unless you were Brahmins they did not have the same incentives to preserve the system once they left the suffocating environment of India.

thecleaner 6y ago

This story and related stories seem very coordinated. Also its not "richest tech companies", its just one incident at Cisco so the title of the story is really misleading. However, if anyone is found actually discriminating against an employee in terms of opportunities, I hope the law against bias gets enforced.

pkd 6y ago

This seems to have gained quite a lot of popularity. I think it's the third time I've seen this on the HN front page in the last month. Although I find it abominable that even one person has carried their discrimination with them, I'm also surprised that this is a pattern. I've been in North America for about 4 years now and the only times caste has come up as a topic is westerners being curious about it. Also not all Brahmins wear the thread on their shoulders and not everybody who wears it is a Brahmin, so it's a poor test.

pkphilip 6y ago
I am sorry but non-brahmins typically do not wear the thread. The thread ceremonies will not be held if you are not a brahmin.
- qart 6y ago
  Please stop. I have attended Vaishya thread ceremonies myself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanayana
- pratik661 6y ago
  I'm a non Brahmin who has had the thread ceremony. I used to wear the thread (I don't anymore because I'm not really religious and its too much of a hassle...)
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Yes, they do. Every one of the four castes can wear the thread. Brahmins do not have a choice. But others have a choice joy to wear it.

ggffhjjggff 6y ago

Where did you grow up? What do your parents do? Where did you go to University? It’s nothing new. It’s just not the western culture’s version.

unionjack22 6y ago

I’m curious whether there’s data showing the age breakdown of the perpetrators and victims in these cases and whether the rise of Hindu nationalism contributed to an increase.

oh_sigh 6y ago

What would be the consequences for, say, a dalit who role played as a Brahmin? Tell everyone his last name is X, wear the white string things, etc?

green-bottle 6y ago
If you are living in the more progressive parts of the country (generally more urban) being found out things will make things... awkward. Not in the sense that there will be consequences, but you will have aired out your insecurities to others.

jackfoxy 6y ago

> The case involves an all-Indian team of employees at Cisco Systems' headquarters in San Jose... If the government is going to make a discrimination case, shouldn't it be higher up the equal outcome ladder than caste?

ajju 6y ago

My personal experience, admittedly anecdotal, for context: My cofounder and I have started 2 businesses together, across 11 years and I have no idea what his caste is. Of the 50+ Indians who work at our company I think I know the caste of two of them - because of a shared family last name. In my 17 years in the workforce working as an Indian with Indians in America, I have only once heard someone mention their own caste - which was to share A personal account of discrimination the previous generation of their family faced in India a few decades ago. Having said that, caste discrimination is alive and well in large pockets of ignorance in India and the larger a group of people the higher the likelihood of ignorance and bias. Given the sad history around caste in India, this is not a problem to ignore.

fmajid 6y ago
I know a Brahmin gentleman of my parents' generation, living in the US for decades. He was plenty fond of steak, until his kids got to marriage age, at which point he became vegetarian. He made it clear non-Brahmins would not be acceptable matches for his kids. So it may not be a big deal for your group, but it may be for others.

jcims 6y ago

This isn’t the only caste system in SV.

HariPavan 6y ago

Caste discrimination is even written in Mahabharata too. Do you guys think this caste discrimination in India and Indians is going away soon? I don't think so.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
All Brahmins worship gods who are non-Brahmins in their avatar. To say that Brahmins practice caste discrimination is to say that Brahmins discriminate against their own gods. Doesn’t compute.

yalogin 6y ago

I am sympathetic to the cause but it seems like the Cisco incident is the only one being cited and it’s making the rounds every few weeks. Any sort of discrimination is terrible but this is getting disproportionately more attention than the other problems in the country.

chenpengcheng 6y ago

a blue wave is coming

amriksohata 6y ago

Indian lived in India for many years and in the UK. Never been subjected to caste discrimination or seen it, only heard the odd jokes in Punjabi songs, Jatt ones but never seen high caste Rajputs, Brahmins etc say anything. If anything I think the problem is economic background, its always money that determines real status and that too the poorer suffer most.

merricksb 6y ago

Other discussions about this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 (358 points/4 months ago/606 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 (84 points/3 months ago/58 comments)

bu600 6y ago

There is a narrative in the comments that the British have to be burdened with the majority of the blame for the malaise of the caste system. Here is a young untouchable girl's article in 1855 that sheds a light on the brutal oppression and subjugation that was already deeply ingrained in Indian society, and how the British introduced some balance. https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-female-dalit-writer-wrote-about-the-grief-of-the-mangs-and-the-mahars/ https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-fema... From the article: The Mang and Mahar children never dare lodge a complaint even if the Brahman children throw stones at them and injure them seriously. They suffer silently because they know they have to go to the Brahmans’ houses to beg for the leftover food. Alas! O God! What agony this! I will burst into tears if I write more about this injustice. Because of such oppression, the merciful God has bestowed on us, this benevolent British government. Let us see how our pain has been mitigated under this government. Earlier, Gokhale, Apate, Trimkaji, Andhala, Pansara, Kale, Behre, etc [all Brahman surnames], who showed their bravery by killing rats in their homes, persecuted us, not sparing even pregnant women, without any rhyme or reason. This has stopped now. Harassment and torture of Mahars and Mangs, common during the rule of Peshwas in Pune, have stopped. Now, human sacrifice for the foundation of forts and mansions has stopped – now, nobody buries us alive. Now, our population is growing in numbers. Earlier, if any Mahar or Mang wore fine clothes, they would say that only Brahmans should wear such clothes. Seen in fine clothes, we were earlier accused of stealing such clothes. Their religion was in danger of being polluted when Untouchables put clothes around their bodies; they would tie them to a tree and punish them. But, under British rule, anybody with money can buy and wear clothes. Earlier, punishment for any wrongdoing against the upper castes was to behead the guilty Untouchable— now, it has stopped. Excessive and exploitative tax has stopped. The practice of untouchability has stopped in some places. Killing has stopped on the playground. Now, we can even visit the marketplace.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

https://hssh.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/hssh/article/download/40067/36268 https://hssh.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/hssh/article/downlo... Caste Confusion and Census Enumeration in Colonial India, 1871-1921 Pretty illuminating..about the British understanding of caste and how they conducted their census. [..] Caste data also failed to meet the goals of uniformity and comparability. Most Muslims listed their caste even though they were assumed not to have one. Part of this confusion was due to enumerators not following instructions: “the enumerators must understand that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Caste Classification, this will be done afterwards by the Compilers, and, in this column, they are to enter the Caste or Class as it is given to them by, or for, each individual.”41 Another problem with knowledge of India that emerged through this process was that local colonial officials patterned their own cate- gorization on pre-existing understandings of caste, which were not nationally consistent. From these data, Waterfield could only conclude that the “caste system is perhaps as prevalent among the Mahomedans as among those pro- fessing the Hindoo religion.”42 Even Christians listed their caste, Waterfield lamented, which led him to explain that those who did list their caste must be Hindoo converts. In addition to people’s skill at manipulating the caste lists were the highly dis- 43 44 no sides in these feuds. Waterfield concluded that the main problems with caste calculations were “due partly to the intrinsic difficulties on the subject, and partly to the absence of a uniform plan of classification.”46 Commenting on the 1871 census effort, C. Elliot, Secretary to Government for the Northwestern Provinces, wrote: [T]he caste statistics are the most unsatisfactory part of the return. Greater accu- racy than before has been aimed at, and probably obtained, but still there is much error and confusion in the figures. A really scientific and sound classification is hardly possible in the face of the general ignorance of this subject which prevails among the people themselves, the frequency with which the same caste is called by different names in different places, and the tendency to confuse caste with occupa- 47 Frustrations in the first set of censuses stemmed from procedural problems compounded by the lack of suitable conceptualization. The grand expectation that colonial census commissioners would need only to collate caste data was thwarted by widespread uncertainty in India about what caste was.[..] [..] There was also growing unrest concerning caste categories among India scholars and activists. By the time of India’s third national census in 1891, “many Indian political activists had become extremely census-savvy and were beginning to debate the definitions of the terms being used to describe them.”63 The fact that the census introduced new labels for various groups did not automatically transform Indian reality. There is evidence, however, to suggest that people were subscribing to census definitions and that they attached impor- tance to how they were classified. Quite often, to the irritation of enumerators, respondents would “describe themselves as anything but what they are.”64 This was the opposite of the sort of self-identification for which census planners had hoped. On this note, J. A. Baines argued in 1899 census correspondence that “I am inclined to advise the omission of caste from the Imperial schedule, and to make use of the returns of 1891 as a standard until 1911.”65 There still remained a great deal of confusion among all involved in the census project about how to classify caste. In his report on the 1891 census of India, E. Maclagan wrote, “The instructions I issued are in many parts word for word the same as those issued in 1881 . . . they were not, however, free from faults . . . the terminology was in many cases different from that of the translation issued to enumerators, and many of the superior officials were much puzzled at the inconsistencies of the two sets of orders.”66 Inefficient enumeration and lack of consensus on a definition of caste fostered more confusion. The tension between the pragmat- ics of administration on the ground and the imperial objectives of accumulating knowledge for the governance of populations led commissioners Plowden and Baines to suggest removing caste from the census.[..]

known 6y ago

"The best way to escape from a problem is to solve it" --Alan Saporta https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1320245884680957952 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1320245884680957952