9 ms·

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For co

by asjw 6y ago

Not to disagree with the post in general, but at a thousand/year shot and killed by the police in US, they probably are one of the most dangerous threat For comparison in Italy in 2019 there have been 3 people killed by the police, and people have - rightfully IMO - complained every single time. In US more than 1k (1040 to be precise) died shot by cops If we compare the population, there should have been at least 180 victims of police gunning in Italy That's clearly unacceptable. Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety.

sixothree 6y ago
Wait. Do we have actual numbers of police shootings? Aren't these things self-reported and under-reported?
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  I feel like they probably always report them but lie about the circumstances and say the shooting was justified.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  I think total killings are pretty accurately reporting. There were about 1100 police killings in 2019. This includes people shot or beaten to death by officers on or off duty. [1] About 10% of these people were unarmed. This statistic is the one which is most likely under-reported. About 50 police are feloniously killed per year [2] [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...
  - sixothree 6y ago
    Thank you.
anoonmoose 6y ago
Many, many, many more people in the US are shooting themselves or others than getting shot by police. We're talking like, 1K per year shot by cops versus 100 PER DAY of overall gun murder/suicide. Yes, police violence is a problem, but the 1K shot by cops is mostly an artifact of our crazy high overall gun violence problem. Edit: so, to summarize, yes, I do think that our crazy high number of people shot by police per capita is because of and strongly related to our crazy high number of people shooting each other and themselves.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  Lets start with the actual number of gun related homicides per day 40. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm You are comparing the number of gun deaths in 2 populations and concluding that the difference in total deaths indicates a commensurate increase in dangerous situations faced by officers. Your inclusion of gun suicides makes it extremely difficult to be charitable with your interpretation. Greater gun suicides correlates with hopelessness and availability of guns not danger to officers and these deaths of despair are literally 60% of the gun deaths you are talking about! Half of the remaining were murdered by someone they know. Most of the remaining 20 not 100 daily murders seemingly random violent murders aren't really random they are criminals murdering other criminals. Cops aren't overwhelmingly dealing with gang bangers they are overwhelmingly dealing with members of the general population and lots of low level offenders because that is what's out there. That is who they are murdering. They are murdering a broad swath of the population mostly not entirely focused on black people literally because they can get away with it. Instead of pretending we can't look at the deaths in proper context we ought to analyze the deaths in their proper context. Although this is hard to do in a comment thread your reasoning is in this case worse than nothing because it gives one the false impression that you have a handle on it. Please stop apologizing for murderers.
  - anoonmoose 6y ago
    I agree with everything you said and I don't feel like our comments are in dispute- I don't think cops are killing people because we have so much murder and suicide, I think that we have a violent and gun obsessed country, and that shows itself through high levels of police violence, murder, and suicide. Edit: as such, I would remove the "because of" part of the last sentence of my previous comment, and leave the "strongly related to". My bad.
Wohlf 6y ago
>Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety. Number of homicides in the USA in 2017: 19,510 Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm Number of homicides in Italy in 2017: 357 Deaths per 100,000 population: 0.6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy
- noobaccount 6y ago
  Wow, how can we be more like Italy?
  - bdamm 6y ago
    Or really, like pretty much any developed nation.
  - korijn 6y ago
    Get rid of your guns
    - eanzenberg 6y ago
      Easy when you’re not a criminal. Who will enforce this anyways?
    - WillPostForFood 6y ago
      Homicide rate was 4 per 100k in the 50s, spiked up to 10 through the 60s and 70s, dipped a bit in the 80s, then dropped from 1991 to to now back to around 6. The increase in crime in the 60s and 70s didn't correlate with more guns, the decrease in crime in the late 90's didn't correlate with fewer guns. There is clearly something going on in the US that drives crime that is not guns. Culture, welfare state, war on drugs, inequality, segregation, failure of the family. Better cases to be made on any of those things than guns.
      - 6y ago
asjw 6y ago
Well, both of the previous answers prove my point US is a a dangerous country and the police is not doing a good job at all If there are so many homicides, who should prevent them? If after killing a hundred people a month (by shooting at them, I presented only the numbers of those killed by a police shooting) they can't even make a dent on the (horrible) numbers, it means they are doing a very bad job. Tertium non datur The mob kills less people here. And we have at least two of the main five criminal organizations in the entire world.
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  How do you know they aren't making a dent in the numbers? You don't know, and can't know, the counter factual. One anecdote though, police are doing less policing right now in cities like Chicago, and the the outcome is not looking good. At least 106 people shot, 14 fatally, in Chicago weekend violence https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-violence-shootings-20200622-ghaioius2zhdpdsbsan4k2g2vu-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-week...
  - chinesempire 6y ago
    It's pretty easy to say when your stats are 10 times worse than a similar developed country and look more like a developing country where warlords are in charge Or, in US police is at war Which is equally bad EDIT: to give more context If poverty rate in US was worse than in Nigeria, people would say that something went horribly wrong Homicide rate in US is actually 1.5 times worse than Nigeria and two times worse than Uganda and Congo
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  Using the pretext of traffic stops as an excuse to search vehicles for small amounts of drugs and then shooting people reaching for their wallets doesn't do much to prevent murders. Police murders aren't meaningfully correlated with crime prevention.

by asjw 6y ago

sixothree 6y ago

Wait. Do we have actual numbers of police shootings? Aren't these things self-reported and under-reported?

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
I feel like they probably always report them but lie about the circumstances and say the shooting was justified.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
I think total killings are pretty accurately reporting. There were about 1100 police killings in 2019. This includes people shot or beaten to death by officers on or off duty. [1] About 10% of these people were unarmed. This statistic is the one which is most likely under-reported. About 50 police are feloniously killed per year [2] [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...
- sixothree 6y ago
  Thank you.

anoonmoose 6y ago

Many, many, many more people in the US are shooting themselves or others than getting shot by police. We're talking like, 1K per year shot by cops versus 100 PER DAY of overall gun murder/suicide. Yes, police violence is a problem, but the 1K shot by cops is mostly an artifact of our crazy high overall gun violence problem. Edit: so, to summarize, yes, I do think that our crazy high number of people shot by police per capita is because of and strongly related to our crazy high number of people shooting each other and themselves.

michaelmrose 6y ago
Lets start with the actual number of gun related homicides per day 40. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm You are comparing the number of gun deaths in 2 populations and concluding that the difference in total deaths indicates a commensurate increase in dangerous situations faced by officers. Your inclusion of gun suicides makes it extremely difficult to be charitable with your interpretation. Greater gun suicides correlates with hopelessness and availability of guns not danger to officers and these deaths of despair are literally 60% of the gun deaths you are talking about! Half of the remaining were murdered by someone they know. Most of the remaining 20 not 100 daily murders seemingly random violent murders aren't really random they are criminals murdering other criminals. Cops aren't overwhelmingly dealing with gang bangers they are overwhelmingly dealing with members of the general population and lots of low level offenders because that is what's out there. That is who they are murdering. They are murdering a broad swath of the population mostly not entirely focused on black people literally because they can get away with it. Instead of pretending we can't look at the deaths in proper context we ought to analyze the deaths in their proper context. Although this is hard to do in a comment thread your reasoning is in this case worse than nothing because it gives one the false impression that you have a handle on it. Please stop apologizing for murderers.
- anoonmoose 6y ago
  I agree with everything you said and I don't feel like our comments are in dispute- I don't think cops are killing people because we have so much murder and suicide, I think that we have a violent and gun obsessed country, and that shows itself through high levels of police violence, murder, and suicide. Edit: as such, I would remove the "because of" part of the last sentence of my previous comment, and leave the "strongly related to". My bad.

Wohlf 6y ago

>Or, from another angle, it means that criminality in US is so much worse than the average EU country that it's ok to kill so many people in the name of safety. Number of homicides in the USA in 2017: 19,510 Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm Number of homicides in Italy in 2017: 357 Deaths per 100,000 population: 0.6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy

noobaccount 6y ago
Wow, how can we be more like Italy?
- bdamm 6y ago
  Or really, like pretty much any developed nation.
- korijn 6y ago
  Get rid of your guns
  - eanzenberg 6y ago
    Easy when you’re not a criminal. Who will enforce this anyways?
  - WillPostForFood 6y ago
    Homicide rate was 4 per 100k in the 50s, spiked up to 10 through the 60s and 70s, dipped a bit in the 80s, then dropped from 1991 to to now back to around 6. The increase in crime in the 60s and 70s didn't correlate with more guns, the decrease in crime in the late 90's didn't correlate with fewer guns. There is clearly something going on in the US that drives crime that is not guns. Culture, welfare state, war on drugs, inequality, segregation, failure of the family. Better cases to be made on any of those things than guns.
    - 6y ago

asjw 6y ago

Well, both of the previous answers prove my point US is a a dangerous country and the police is not doing a good job at all If there are so many homicides, who should prevent them? If after killing a hundred people a month (by shooting at them, I presented only the numbers of those killed by a police shooting) they can't even make a dent on the (horrible) numbers, it means they are doing a very bad job. Tertium non datur The mob kills less people here. And we have at least two of the main five criminal organizations in the entire world.

WillPostForFood 6y ago
How do you know they aren't making a dent in the numbers? You don't know, and can't know, the counter factual. One anecdote though, police are doing less policing right now in cities like Chicago, and the the outcome is not looking good. At least 106 people shot, 14 fatally, in Chicago weekend violence https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-violence-shootings-20200622-ghaioius2zhdpdsbsan4k2g2vu-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-week...
- chinesempire 6y ago
  It's pretty easy to say when your stats are 10 times worse than a similar developed country and look more like a developing country where warlords are in charge Or, in US police is at war Which is equally bad EDIT: to give more context If poverty rate in US was worse than in Nigeria, people would say that something went horribly wrong Homicide rate in US is actually 1.5 times worse than Nigeria and two times worse than Uganda and Congo
michaelmrose 6y ago
Using the pretext of traffic stops as an excuse to search vehicles for small amounts of drugs and then shooting people reaching for their wallets doesn't do much to prevent murders. Police murders aren't meaningfully correlated with crime prevention.