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Nintendo has reportedly suffered a significant legacy console leak
- gregjw 6y agoIs this bad? Am I misunderstanding? What financial damage does this do when Nintendo no longer manufacturers this console or actively developers for it and hasn't for years, or a decade in the N64/GameCube's case?
- izzydata 6y agoIf Nintendo offered N64 games to be purchased for the Switch people would still pay for them in droves. It's weird that they don't offer so much of their past works in any legitimate capacity.
- DanTheManPR 6y agoIt's genuinely weird that they still don't have a virtual console for anything other than a select few NES games. We're midway through the Switch's lifecyle already!
- JauntTrooper 6y agoIt's also weird they haven't monetized phones further either. I would expect a lot of NES / SNES / Gameboy games would do well on phones. Super Mario 3 seems like it would do better than Super Mario Run.
- anamexis 6y agoThey also have SNES virtual console now. But yeah, I'd love to see N64!
- mostlysimilar 6y agoI've never heard a compelling reason for Nintendo not doing this. Why don't they have a full catalog available on the Switch? It's technically feasible and would make them boatloads of cash.
- colejohnson66 6y agoProbable because of licensing reasons. Nintendo may have a license to distribute a game, but it’s probably limited to the console it was designed for.
- vikbytes 6y agoI guess they can make the argument that it will damage their financial prospects of reselling old games on digital platforms, such as Virtual Console. But emulators are already available with very good accuracy so I don't know if this will actually have any actual impact on their potential sales. I do believe that N64 emulation might benefit from the leaks, as I am under the impression the accuracy of N64 emulators has some glaring issues still.
- dathinab 6y agoIn my experience emulation shouldn't to much affect the selling of a "remastered" version or similar. And "just" emulation doesn't sell good, even Nintendo just adds it as an additional goody to their online service (NES/SNES). I believe at least for Nintendo it doesn't really matter much.
- rathel 6y agoWell, they'll always oversell the damage, but realistically, not much impact to their bottom line. They do release remasters and ports, but I'd be hard pressed to see it being a significant loss in the grand scheme of things for a company that doesn't need to subsidize hardware with software. Like: people would buy a hypothetical N64 mini regardless of 3rd party emulators available. Or buy old games on the Virtual Console or however it's now called on the Switch. From enthusiast perspective - it's a boon for preservation purposes.
- paulie_a 6y agoI'm sure some people will take advantage of it but let's be honest. Those willing and able are a tiny fraction of their consumers.
- coldpie 6y ago> From enthusiast perspective - it's a boon for preservation purposes. Sort of. It's obviously illegal to distribute, and arguably using it as a reference for re-implementation in emulators or in hardware would be a derivative work, and so also illegal. This could make things harder for emulator and hardware developers who now have to screen new contributors to ensure they have not been exposed to this material. It will probably be a fantastic resource 5-10+ years down the line, when things have cooled off, but for now, it's all fairly radioactive for people and organizations that are concerned about legal action.
- toyg 6y ago> emulator and hardware developers [...] now have to screen new contributors to ensure they have not been exposed to this material. You cannot prove a negative. The most a project can do is to have people signing waivers that state they have not been exposed and/or will not copy stuff, effectively discharging responsibility on the individual.
- Kye 6y agoThis isn't a hypothetical concern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS#Internal_audit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS#Internal_audit >> "On 27 January 2006, the developers responsible for maintaining the ReactOS code repository disabled access after a meeting was held to discuss the allegations. When approached by NewsForge, Microsoft declined to comment on the incident. Since ReactOS is a free and open-source software development project, the claim triggered a negative reaction by the free software community; in particular, Wine barred several inactive developers from providing contributions[citation needed] and formal high level cooperation between the two projects remained difficult as of 2006.[33] Contributions from several active ReactOS developers have been accepted post-audit, and low level cooperation for bug fixes has been still occurring."
- amelius 6y agoIt will cannibalize their current business. (At least that's what they will most likely give as an argument)
- paulie_a 6y agoJust like mp3s cannibalized the music industry. While they did get hard after the lat 90s I would consider routine grwoth year over year to be good. 17 percent in 2017 was considered a bad year
- Hokusai 6y ago> Is this bad? Am I misunderstanding? It is illegal, but I do not see it being bad for consumers. If anything it seems that it could be good if it has been done legally from Nintendo instead of being a leak.
- zozbot234 6y agoThis information was actually leaked from a subcontractor, not from Nintendo themselves. It's not clear if Nintendo ever had access to it in its entirety or even knew about it. The subcontractor company is also quite obscure, it's hard to tell how they ended up developing this stuff.
- lidHanteyk 6y agoYou might be missing the concept of "face" [0]. This is only bad in that it causes Nintendo to lose face, and Nintendo hates losing face. For example, examine Wikipedia; Nintendo's page about legal disputes [1] is whitewashed to reword all of Nintendo's abuses towards Free Software and the public domain as "protection" of Nintendo's "property". Face allows Nintendo to take their holier-than-thou attitude. It is why they feel that they are allowed to both destroy the community's own work [2][3][4] and steal it for themselves [5][6]. We profess love for Mario, Zelda, Pikachu, and Metroid, and in return, they are socially empowered to abuse us. Imagine a world where copyright were only 14 years, as in the original, or 2 years, as in my back-of-napkin estimation of how long it takes to publish something and have it fully saturate the world market. In such a world, Nintendo's back catalog would no longer have the force of law behind its monopoly; they would still publish excellent games, but they would not be able to prevent others from enjoying them. Indeed, there is not any reasonable claim to financial damages, just facial damages. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo#Intellectual_property_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo#Intellectual_property... [2] https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/4dbf90f837296db72ca959e1d9aac8e11ad3c208/2015-07-06-nintendo.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/4dbf90f837296db72ca959e1... [3] https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2016/2016-12-27-Nintendo.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2016/2016-12-27-N... [4] https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2017/2017-06-22-Nintendo.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2017/2017-06-22-N... [5] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-download-a-mario-rom-and-sell-it-back-to-us https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-d... [6] https://old.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/9as2ii/did_nintendo_actually_download_roms_for_their/ https://old.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/9as2ii/did_ninte...
- sgift 6y ago5/6 sounds interesting to me. On the one hand Nintendo is the IP holder of the original ROM, so they would be the only ones allowed to legally download it if I understand it correctly. On the other hand the ROM was modified and contains a header which was made by someone else. So, to that part they don't hold the rights to download it? Or is it okay, because it's a derivative of their work?
- dustingetz 6y agoSeveral legacy Mario titles are expected to be released this year on Nintendo Switch's online subscription service. (Galaxy, Sunshine, Mario 64 is the rumor. The NES and SNES titles are already available and this stuff is driving monthly subscription fees)
- anotherman554 6y agoThese games can already be emulated well is my understanding. I don't think it will hurt Nintendo if the emulators are improved a little bit.
- dogma1138 6y agoAbout zero. Emulators and near perfect ones already exist. Sure they still sell old games on through their retro console but these can be pirated easily on existing consoles. This wouldn’t affect the bottom line really at all since this will not make piracy easier. The only possible loss here is due to fines from regulators or law suits from 3rd parties which had their licenses IP exposed but the latter would be a hard thing to prove or estimate it would be hard to claim that 25-30 year old SGI IP would be that valuable to their competitors today especially since SGI is dead and who knows who owns that IP right now.
- ars 6y agoWhat if a Chinese company decided to make bootleg Nintendo machines using these sources and sell them? They would probably sell the console and a bunch of games as a single playable kit.
- xigency 6y agoChinese factories have been doing this for decades already. I bought a 100 Games in One system at my local mall kiosk ten years ago that had an NES on a chip built into a game controller that plugged into the TV. Given their place in the electronics supply chain, China has an incredible ability to clone hardware.
- dogma1138 6y agoThere were clones of NES/SNES when these machines were on the market I had a Famiclone in the 90’s, the games were also mainly bootleg. Today you have pretty expensive high end SNES clones on the market on top of the 100/1000 games in one HDMI single SoC clones and Nintendo doesn’t seem to care.
- danbolt 6y agoI think this has been discussed in other threads here, but from my understanding Nintendo 64 emulation has been a little shakier than other consoles.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- MPSimmons 6y agoThe worst case scenario would be if they used some of the copy protection schemes from the consoles in this leak, ported to the Switch. It seems unlikely to me, but I think that's the only real potential for damage.
- mschuster91 6y agoHeh I hope someone finds a way to get reliable (or, for the new generation, any) homebrew on the Switch. The Switch has a built-in browser, Bluetooth and probably a h264 accelerator somewhere in the GPU stack. A proper media player and the ability to easily transfer screenshots via BT would be so awesome. With many games being outright f2p or very cheap (except AAA titles) I don't get why they all are so uptight about DRM/piracy...
- thejsa 6y agoTheir copy protection schemes do largely stem from the basic ‘signed personalised tickets’ thing they’ve had going on since the iQue Player and then the Wii, but insofar it seems to have held up to attacks and no fatal fundamental flaws have been found yet. Short of software exploits, until 2048-bit RSA is broken it’s not a concern really
- dehrmann 6y agoIt could be mildly bad if someone discovers Nintendo devs were like Disney animators and sneaked in "sex" (The Lion King), a drawn penis (The Little Mermaid), or a topless woman (The Rescuers).
- umanwizard 6y agoSo... if someone who isn’t me wanted to download this, where would they look?
- bildung 6y agoFrom TFA: "was allegedly leaked onto the anonymous forum 4chan"
- swebs 6y agoOk, in which thread on which board? I can't find anything on /t/ or /v/.
- swebs 6y agoFound it on /vp/ https://boards.4channel.org/vp/thread/43481028 https://boards.4channel.org/vp/thread/43481028 https://archive.org/details/segadoeswhatnintendontlololol https://archive.org/details/segadoeswhatnintendontlololol
- dubcanada 6y agoActually I am gonna remove this google "download nintendo leak routefree" and you'll find what you need somewhere in the results.
- EvenThisAcronym 6y ago> However I MUST say this is from 4chan so BE CAREFUL about what you download and how you play with stuff. The only danger in downloading something leaked on 4chan is that you run the risk of learning a little more about dolphins than you might have liked.
- zozbot234 6y agoNah, Dolphin is 100% open source and above board, they're going to avoid this stuff like the plague.
- sickcodebruh 6y ago> The PC emulation community could also theoretically use the data to improve their software so that it imitates the original systems perfectly. However, since the leaked documentation has been illegally obtained this would put them in murky territory. I'd love to hear opinions about this whole thing from folks who work on emulators.
- coldpie 6y agoI don't work on emulators, but I do work on Wine. We explicitly forbid any contributions from anyone who has seen any Microsoft source code. The risk of introducing work derived from code owned by Microsoft is too high. I don't know how strict emulator authors are about this--they're non-commercial and so have less at stake than we do--but if I were an emulator author, I would cut ties with anyone known to have looked at this material. The whole reason emulators are legal and ROMs aren't is because emulators are original work not owned by the console developer. Once you start introducing derived work, that all flies out the window, and Nintendo can crack down on the emulators themselves.
- userbinator 6y agoThe whole reason emulators are legal and ROMs aren't is because emulators are original work not owned by the console developer. Except that people need ROMs to test emulators with. Just like the old saying that it's impossible to actually start "from scratch", at some point everything is a derivative work of everything else; it just has to be far enough away to not attract legal attention.
- coldpie 6y agoIt's not really comparable. It is legal to rip ROMs for your own use. Distributing ROMs discreetly is illegal, but also basically impossible to prove. If reverse-engineered, the hardware ABI that the cartridge uses to converse with the system is not copyrightable[1] so you can distribute an emulator that you developed. Meanwhile it's pretty trivial to prove that some code is derived from some other code or some internal docs. The legal risks are wildly different. [1] At least for now; burn in Hell, Oracle.
- boredgamer2 6y agoIt would be amazing to see the Gameboy/N64 emulator hacker community expand, and NEW games begin to be developed based on these docs. Maybe Nintendo could double-down on this and turn it into good publicity
- zozbot234 6y agoThe article mentions that this would be unwise due to these documents being released illegally. Reverse engineering some existing system for the purpose of interoperability (as is common among homebrew enthusiasts) is legal; hacking into a Nintendo subcontractor's IT and leaking internal documentation obviously isn't.
- Zenbit_UX 6y agoA developer can use the leak as a reference without being the one responsible for the leak. It sounds like it would be hugely beneficial.
- roywiggins 6y agoIf Nintendo can prove they used it as a reference, that's evidence for a nasty lawsuit. There's a reason why people go to these lengths: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
- zzo38computer 6y agoMany people already do make new games for Gameboy (and NES/Famicom) without these documents.
- roblabla 6y agoTo be clear, this doesn't just contain the source code of the software. It also contains the Verilog for the N64 GPU and other important hardware component, which is hugely important. From what I gather, it also contains full version history from their VCS. While it is very interesting, it's worth noting that anybody hoping to use this for anything "serious" risks getting the Nintendo lawyers on their ass. Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones. This leak is both a blessing and a curse.
- zurn 6y agoI'm betting the emulators will use this. They develop against the ROMs without permission too, after all. Of course they won't incorporate unlicensed copyrighted things from the leak in their own code, but they don't need to.
- saagarjha 6y agoEvery emulator will tell you to acquire your ROMs legally.
- zurn 6y agoIt's of course possible to acquire the N64 Verilog legally too.
- saagarjha 6y agoI'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, because I'm not aware of any ways to do this save for writing the Verilog from scratch.
- zurn 6y agoLegally speaking, you could have legit access to the verilog by working for one of the existing licensees - eg Nintendo, chip companies, fab companies. Or by buying or otherwise acquiring (eg patent trolling settlement) a license to it from Nintendo. It's not really likely, but it's within the realm of possibility. Somewhat less likely than legally acquired game ROMs, sure, but only a matter of degree...
- chadlavi 6y agoNintendo "suffering" a leak is one (very pro-corporation) take on this. Probably not the one most people would have on hearing about this though.
- TheAceOfHearts 6y agoModern Vintage Gamer just released a video [0] discussing this leak in greater detail along with its expected implications. Anyone who's curious can find the download links by backtracking through all the Pokemon Prototype General threads under the Pokemon board on 4chan. One of the leaks that caught my attention was the source for Pokemon Blue, partially because of nostalgia and partially out of curiosity to see what an old game's codebase even looks like. The first thing that stood out to me was the project's flat folder structure, full of hundreds of files; I guess I was expecting things to be a bit more structured. The source is more readable and approachable than I expected, although I've only poked around in some of the more obvious places and definitions. I'd recommend watching The Ultimate Game Boy Talk [1] before trying to dive into any code. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8G7eq0GlQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8G7eq0GlQs [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzD8pNlpwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzD8pNlpwI
- BenoitEssiambre 6y agoThe most shocking part of this story is still that Nintendo keeps all its code in CVS. CVS!!!
- ginko 6y agoFor game code written in the mid 90s I'm actually pleasantly surprized. I would have expected just a bunch of copied folders with weekly snapshots.
- grawprog 6y agoIt wasn't Nintendo's CVS it was BroadOn's CVS. It was a third party Chinese company Nintendo allowed to produce Nintendo compatible hardware in China. They had access to a bunch of sdks and the source codes for the system to develop their hardware.
- fl0wenol 6y agoIt was probably iGware's or Acer's CVS when it was hacked, if I'd have to guess. RouteFree->BroadOn->iGWare->Acer Cloud Technology (as of 2011, now just a business unit)
- zelon88 6y agoI like drawing metaphors from Tamiya. Tamiya is a Japanese scale modelling and remote-controlled vehicle company with a loooong history of making quality products that the industry just eats up. Like Nintendo, Tamiya has always been in the back row when it comes to technological innovation, but lead the pack when it came to functionality, reliability, and quality. Just like Nintendo, there are Tamiya fan clubs where people are enthusiastic about products from this one company. The rest of the industry doesn't exist to them. I'm trying to illustrate how Tamiya is to the R/C world what Nintendo is to console games. That said, vintage Tamiya products new in original packaging from the 70s and 80s can sell for thousands and thousands of dollars. Simple plastic and aluminum parts that were consumable in the 80s were selling for hundreds of dollars in the late 2000s. The market was a rough place. I have about a dozen antique Tamiya models, so I was one of those people engaged in bidding wars for 1/4" long tie-rod ends. A brand new Tamiya in the 80s was probably about $100 for a rolling kit. Now people are paying that for individual parts. Nobody was having fun with their models anymore. Everyone was just dusting them off and spending money keeping them pretty. Tamiya had to get the kids playing with their models again. They had to take this exclusive, elitist market they created by accident 30 years ago and start making money off of it again. So Tamiya re-released nearly ALL of their vintage kits. Brand new, with original design, documentation, decals, and packaging. This was in addition to their new models and high-tech racing vehicles which were still being released on a regular schedule at the same time. Initially all the collectors (myself included) were livid, because for a while it meant my $1,100 Bruiser 3-speed was only worth $500. That didn't happen either. For a time the prices dipped significantly, but collectors still demanded vintage parts to repair their vintage models. The prices soon stabilized. Now that market is healthy and stable, vintage vehicles can be repaired cheaply if desired, and collectors can still spend thousands on NIB models. If Nintendo embraced their market they could possibly reap the same benefits. The enthusiasm for their products is there. Tamiya has shown it is possible to separate collector demand from commodity demand and still have those ecosystems thrive side-by-side. I think Nintendo could pull that off as well.
- GuiA 6y agoThis is a very cool story, and makes me want to learn more about Tamiya. But the situation does not seem the same to me. People are - for the most part - able to play the old Nintendo games they want through the virtual console, backwards compatibility, remakes, or NES/SNES mini. Yes, some N64 carts are selling for thousands on eBay - but that’s not preventing kids from playing that game if they want to.
- xwdv 6y agoGod I would love to see Mario 64 re-released with a full ray-tracing engine for an Nvidia RTX. The PC port is already there, perhaps with the help of information stolen in this leak.
- lifeAsNerd 6y agoNintendo is the Apple of gaming. Not a single tear for a company who brainwashes kids with constant marketing.
- MaximumMadness 6y agoOne of the most interesting parts of this is the story behind Nintendo's use of friend codes rather than Gamertags. There was a presentation [0] leaked that outlined that usernames "weren't simple enough". It's a great look into Nintendo's Wi-Fi Strategy [0] https://www.docdroid.net/Qr3JNsl/wi-fi-concept-pdf#page=11 https://www.docdroid.net/Qr3JNsl/wi-fi-concept-pdf#page=11
- hombre_fatal 6y agoAll of their points looks like an attempt to justify bad decisions. SW-7899-1252-5983 is simpler than username systems children could figure out on Neopets and Club Penguin? People can guess your username because they know your name is Billy? Discord and Blizzard have the ultimate ez solution: What username do you want? Billy. Alright, if you want someone to find you, give them this string: Billy#1201. Nintendo still hasn't made an online system as good as Xbox Live in 2002. How they justify SW-7899-1252-5983 as the ideal trade-off sheds some light that they might have an institional-level lack of intuition about what a compelling online experience looks like. Which is interesting because I think most people by now assumed catastrophic indifference.
- mikorym 6y agoWould this make the N64 any easier to emulate?
- intopieces 6y agoFrom an archiving perspective, this is incredible. I don't trust corporations, even those as wonderful as Nintendo, to do proper archiving of their systems and release it even 100 years on.
- happycube 6y agoThe irony is that N64 got leaked and not Saturn, Jaguar or some console where the owner isn't continually exploiting the IP in some fashion...
- Topgamer7 6y agoIts not irony, its certainly going to be based on interest. People (hackers and non-hackers) are going to be more interested in the more popular IP. More people owned Nintendo products than the other brands. More interest leads to bigger target.
- rasz 6y agoJaguar IP is already available http://www.jagware.org/jag_uploads/dev/glenn_bruner_atarishowroom/netlist.htm http://www.jagware.org/jag_uploads/dev/glenn_bruner_atarisho... https://github.com/Torlus/JagNetlists https://github.com/Torlus/JagNetlists
- intopieces 6y agoDoes this mean I'll be able to pick up a good clone in Shenzhen next year? Serious question.
- elldoubleyew 6y agoI doubt it. Refurbishing and selling original hardware is still likely to be much cheaper than the engineering effort required to build one from scratch. The Wii is old enough that modern commodity hardware can emulate it well enough that it almost indistinguishable from running games on the actual device. Wii clones already exist as emulator boxes and that will continue to be the most financially sound way of producing clones. If this leak were to include design specifications of more modern hardware (such as in the Switch) I think you _would_ see some good clones in Shenzhen in less than a year.
- rasz 6y agoNot if someone turns N64 on a chip design for $30 200-in-1 handhelds.
- ngcc_hk 6y agoDid have to remember the linux law case of a few lines of code nearly got the case. Very hard checking about anyone copy a few lines. Not a good development short term. Good for historical analysis.
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