8 ms·

Don't Terminate People's Internet Connections

304 points by venti 7y ago

rhacker 7y ago
Smart message, hopefully it is received at the cell phone companies. I noticed TMobile is going to give everyone unlimited internet for a couple months whether you have that plan or not - but they didn't say if they were going to avoid shutoff's for no pay.
- concerned_user 7y ago
  For cell phone companies physics is an actual limit, you can have multiple cables laid to improve bandwidth but radio spectrum is only one. You can of course keep making cells of the wireless network smaller and smaller but if you go so small that say each house/apartment has personal one you have invented wi-fi basically.
rammy1234 7y ago
message needed in this time. Please don't think about money in times like this. we need each other and we are all in this together. stay safe and let other's be safe too.
rolph 7y ago
to all those who are blackhat , this is not the time to commit crimes and give people reason to want to dissconnect services, if you are a criminal at least realize that you are overtaxing your bread and butter. give it a break for a while until the system can handle the load of light and dark together
- skissane 7y ago
  Sadly, I think the people who are irresponsible enough to commit crimes in normal times are also going to be irresponsible enough to commit crimes in a crisis situation, and even to look for ways they can exploit a crisis to their own benefit.
  - schoen 7y ago
    For example, there have been COVID-19 phishing and malware scams already. Yes, people are using this pandemic to scam other people!
- knappe 7y ago
  I'd think that right now blackhat is having the time of their life as more and more holes are opened up to allow for things like remote work as unfortunate as that is.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean like the RDP marketplaces should slow down so people cant find a computer near the skimmed credit card they bought so that visa transactions go through? Or something more like corporate hacking? Or back to the RDP to install monero mining botnets? I’m just trying to figure out which one you are referring to as “overtaxing”
  - rolph 7y ago
    similar to the virus or with any sort of lotka/voltera dynamics you cant take so much of a targets budget that it cant survive, that means if you subsist off others like animals do [consumers] those others[producers] must have enough "stuff" left to stay afloat or everyone goes down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equatio... there is a basis for mutual coexistence, it is a maladaptation for anyone to destroy the basis of your existence. in particular the idea of ransoming or disrupting connectivity and integrity of critical data, info ,services or creating compounding issues. If someone makes thier living doing that, now is not the time for thier own sake as well.
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      Yeah but the prey for blackhats numbers in the billions. There is an abundance upon which they can gorge.
      - rolph 7y ago
        up to a point when the prey develops a search image and avoids predation. this is when the predator search image must undergo behavioral extinction, and find a prey that can be harvested with some level of success. When exploitable individuals are no longer contactable the interpredatory competition has to thin out the predators, until more predation naive individuals are born or immigrate to the area etc.
    - dorgo 7y ago
      I think tragedy of the commons will prevent this. Why should I hold back if I know that others won't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
- zahrc 7y ago
  Unfortunately a lot of people lack any common sense or sympathy for others. On the other hand it might be a good time to motivate and teach users to stay safe.
- Intermernet 7y ago
  In Australia we're already seeing malware installing SMS messages that claim to be virus information updates.I want to find whoever is sending them and let them know how terrible they are. With extreme prejudice.
slovette 7y ago
Eh.. there won’t be. But it’s not because of some altruistic motivations, it’s bad PR and the sheer numbers of lost customers would out weight the benefit of terminating for non-pay.
- jascii 7y ago
  At least in the US, the few the major residential ISP's have a virtual monopoly so wont loose many customers and have proven in the past not to give a $#@ about bad PR.
  - CrazyCatDog 7y ago
    Actually, Comcast has been a hero of late. The have advertised that they will give away basic internet for free, and bumped up the speed of existing subscribers in addition to bumping up their data caps. Asking university students to leave campus is hard. Switching from on-prem to online teaching overnight is harder yet. But teaching across the connectivity divide, where students don’t have access at home and the state just shuttered all the businesses providing “free” Wifi, is impossible. I have been wronged many times by Comcast over the last 24 years; at least from my POV, this offer—provided they abide by it—erases most if not all my ill-will towards them. Well done
nreece 7y ago
Here in Australia, a few responsible providers like Aussie Broadband have already announced unmetered data usage and temporarily stopping all service suspensions. https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-announced-covid-19-response/ https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-ann... Edit: The real test though will be the bandwidth of our gov-sponsored, substandard, widely FTTN (instead of full FTTP).
- closeparen 7y ago
  I would expect rationing of the available bandwidth to become more important, not less, as the entire population is stuck at home using it all day.
  - danielheath 7y ago
    Aussie Broadband have announced unlimited bandwidth for those on limited plans, but also that those few making extreme use of available bandwidth will be throttled. They might slow their connections down, too.
  - dcow 7y ago
    That’s if congestion was ever actually a problem to begin with.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      That's what I've been wondering ... will they ever try using "we need zero rating to prevent network overload" again if they'll demonstrate now that they don't?
      - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
        I wish I could say no, but: Yes. In time they could claim - potentially truthfully - that an increasing number of increasingly connected devices engaging in more complex applications by ever more data hungry end users drove additional demand relative to the levels seen in the past, even during past crises.
sys_64738 7y ago
Internet should be viewed as a utility.
- nradov 7y ago
  Most other utilities charge based on how much you consume.
  - runarberg 7y ago
    And most other utilities don’t cut you off if you fail to pay.
    - nradov 7y ago
      Which utilities are those? Electric and gas utilities will absolutely cut off customers who are several months in arrears. Although some areas restrict cut-offs during cold weather. Water utilities usually won't cut off service completely but will install a flow restricted that will allow you just enough water to live. Most areas also have some kind of rate assistance or subsidy program for low income utility customers. But they still have to pay.
      - tehlike 7y ago
        Some utilities decided to not terminate utilities due to non-payment during the current pandemic.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    Most other utilities have cost structures that scale with actual consumption rather than capacity. If you use more water, even if there is plenty of delivery capacity, they could literally run out of it. There is only so much in the reservoir. If you use more electricity, even if there is plenty of transmission capacity, they have to burn more fuel to generate it. Transferring more bits doesn't risk depleting the supply of bits and doesn't require burning more fuel. The worst it can do is consume all of the available transmission capacity. But the amortized cost of a bit is very low -- if you charged true cost then it wouldn't meaningfully deter usage, so you'd still need about the same total amount of transmission capacity. At which point charging for usage serves no legitimate purpose.
goblin89 7y ago
About a month ago my Hong Kong mobile service provider offered subscribers a free local data package. Not unlimited, but a nice gesture.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
  What's "local" mean here?
  - donavanm 7y ago
    Im guessing they meter users differently for traffic going inside and outside the country. On the upstream/provider side it’s not uncommon to see a 2-10x price difference between connectivity inside an island/country vs international carriage.
  - goblin89 7y ago
    I believe this is their speak to make it clear you cannot use that data while roaming. There are not enough resources hosted within the region to make the distinction pointed out by donavanm worthwhile, unlike e.g. China or Russia. The local data from my plan gets used up predictably while I access resources in any part of the Internet.
    - taejo 7y ago
      Could it be that they're including the rest of China in local? Are peering arrangements between HK and the rest of China such that this would make sense?
      - goblin89 7y ago
        No, China and Macao both mean roaming data (not included in “local data” quota on regular plans), though the rates are good.
Havoc 7y ago
>We'll mop up society's collective bills at a later point in time Very much doubt faceless corporations with automated billing cycles will take such an altruistic view on this but perhaps I'll be surprised. Most will do the exact opposite I believe. The last financial crash caused massive cashflow issues for the big corps.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
johnminter 7y ago
Here in the US the vendors are not doing this.
- johnpowell 7y ago
  I use Mintmobile (US) for my cellphone. They are a cheap provider. I pay $180 a year for 2GB of a data a month. They emailed the other day saying data is free for the next month.
- tssva 7y ago
  AT&T has dropped all data caps, waived any late payment fees, will not terminate service and has opened their WiFi hotspots to everyone. Charter is waiving late fees, not terminating service, offering free service to households with students which don't already have service and opening their WiFi hotspots to everyone. Verizon is waiving late fees and will not terminate service. Cox is waiving late fees, not terminating service, opening WiFi hotspots to all and upgrading speeds on connections in their programs for low income customers to 50Mbs. Comcast is eliminating data caps, waiving late fees, not terminating service, opening WiFi hotspots to all and offering 2 months of free service to those eligible for but not enrolled in their $9.95 per month program for low-income families. They are also increasing data rates for their low-income program connections. Many other providers have also pledged to not terminate service.
- bhauer 7y ago
  I was pretty sure most US Internet vendors pledged [1] to "not terminate service to any residential or small business customers because of their inability to pay their bills due to the disruptions caused by the coronavirus pandemic." [1] https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363033A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363033A1.pdf
- scarejunba 7y ago
  As far as I know Sonic's fibre has never had any caps. I for one have never hit them.
wwarner 7y ago
I'll play the devil's advocate. Bandwidth is a finite resource, and it could be in critically short supply. In those circumstances, I wouldn't expect everyone to get more bandwidth, I'd expect it to be rationed.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  The problem is how do you establish effective rationing with no preparation? It's nigh impossible. Even with preparation, It would be a very difficult and impossibly contentious process.
  - wwarner 7y ago
    For the downvoters, I'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits doesn't automatically create abundance. As far as establishing effective policy: ISPs have a lot of practice rationing bandwidth, I'm sure there's a way that's fair enough. Putting a price on it is a good start.
    - Johnny555 7y ago
      For the downvoters, I'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits doesn't automatically create abundance. True, and if they can provide reliable service without the data caps, then it makes the public (and in a perfect world, government regulators) question why they need the data caps at all -- if their network runs fine for months without any data caps, then why do they need those caps at all?
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      It's easier and fairer to load balance and keep upgrading backhauls when they get full.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    Do you mean from a technical or business perspective? Technically Comcast could implement it overnight by reducing everyone's data speed (or maybe throttling particular services), or instituting stricter data caps. From a business perspective it's harder but if it was the only way they could keep their network afloat, I'm sure the could get the FCC to let them implement emergency throttling.
znpy 7y ago
Here in italy Fastweb pledged set up a 1-million gigabytes traffc pool from which all subscribers draw automatically. Once the million is over, traffic will be drawn from the account (granted, Fastweb offers ~50 GB/month for 9.90/month). This is for now, i wouldn't be surprised if they extend it later on. The thing is, Fastweb is big in residential internet connection but pretty minor as mobile provider. No word from major providers (Vodafone, Tim, Iliad)
- dingo454 7y ago
  Currently for me 4G is the only option to work remotely (the only alternative would be going with a wimax provider, or sat). I don't normally incur in the data size caps, but I will soon in the current situation, even when trying to be conservative. It also doesn't seem worthwhile to switch at the moment, since other solutions require a 1-2 year contract which I do not need (not to mention, it would also take 2-3 weeks to get a connection with those anyway).
zajio1am 7y ago
The message does not really make much sense to me. Both service payments and pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online, so it is not affected by coronavirus and lockdowns. We do not really know how long it will take. Emergency state and lockdowns may be the new normal. Everything that could work as usual should work as usual to not cause additional disruption.
- lainga 7y ago
  I think the problem the article was communicating is running out of money if your job is hit (and you live next to a network engineer slash mooch)
- simion314 7y ago
  >Both service payments and pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online, You could be in hospital or you always pay cache not online, many people pay everything with money in hand in shops(that have such payment points) here in Romania, also if you have a smartphone I imagine attempting to setup accounts and try to pay online from the phone is a pain.
fargle 7y ago
Overall, maybe a good sentiment and maybe a good idea. In many areas I think this is being done. However, I don't at all like the argument that if your neighbor can't pay her bill, it might not just impact her, but two of her neighbors, one of which is some kind of network engineer who fixes BGP thingies. And neither of the leaching neighbors who have some kind of critical need of her internet can help pay for it??? If you can fix BGP thingies, you ought to have your own WiFi, or be able to do better than leaching it.
- lightgreen 7y ago
  On the internet this sentiment is called virtue signalling: it costs you nothing, but people around you think you are a good guy.
  - GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
    Except this "sentiment" will genuinely help people who lose their jobs due to corona and won't be able to pay bills. That extra money from not paying a bill can really help out.
    - lightgreen 7y ago
      If they won’t be paying for food, paying rent, paying for commute, paying for gas, the life of people who lost jobs due to corona will also be much easier. What’s so special about internet? Nothing.
    - lightgreen 7y ago
      Also, this sentiment will actually help nobody: if some isp decides to stop taking money for internet, they will do it without suggestion by ripe. That original post was virtue signaling, noise with no practical outcome. On the other hang people who actually spend resources (for example those isp who continue to provide the internet to those who lost jobs) actually make change, and we are thankful to them.
    - fargle 7y ago
      AND... I didn't say it was a bad thing. But it is bad that you have two people leaching off some hypothetical other person's WiFi, neither of which is willing to pay for their own or help her. And you aren't "fixing BGP thingies" for free or if you are out of work. Why isn't the mooching neighbor helping pay? I'm ALL for the ISP's relieving bandwidth caps and not cutting service due to emergency related financial difficulties - for their subscribers.
mirimir 7y ago
> To illustrate, in the Netherlands we are in lockdown, because of the COVID-19 hazard: you are expected to only leave your house if it is absolutely critical, such as to pick up food from the food distribution centers, to get meds, to go work in a hospital, etc. You have food distribution centers? I'm jealous.
- MonaroVXR 7y ago
  I'm from the Netherlands, I think what he means is supermarket. Because distribution centers deliver food to the super market itself instead of the customers. Otherwise I'm not sure what he/she is talking about. We have a full lockdown, yet everyone is outside and it's really crowded. There aren't people that give a (...) About the situation, especially in this city, because most of the people are higher educated.
  - eythian 7y ago
    We don't have a full lockdown. We have "work from home if you at all can, try not to socialise, etc." It's certainly not "you may only go out if you're going to the supermarket, pharmacy, hospital or you risk fines." Many shops are still open, for example. This said, I also wouldn't say it's really crowded, I took the tram in to the office this morning to pick some stuff up (last day that'll be possible for a few weeks) and it was very quiet.
- aardshark 7y ago
  I'm not even sure what he's talking about. The Netherlands is not on lockdown, not compared to Spain or Italy for example. Anywhere people might gather is closed and the public are encouraged to practice 'social distancing'. But the army/police are not in the streets making sure people stay at home.
vmokry 7y ago
If you live in a condo, what about sharing your internet on the guest WIFI network? Does it make sense? Will people misuse it? (It probably violates TOS, I guess.)
- paganel 7y ago
  Not sure about any TOS but I’ve been sharing my WiFi for more than 10 years now. I live in an appartment block in an Eastern European capital.
  - gray_-_wolf 7y ago
    I guess it depends. At least in my contract for connectivity is a clause then I cannot share the connection with people not living in the same household. I would imagine it is fairly common.
    - capableweb 7y ago
      Does that mean you cannot have guests using your connectivity? I'm assuming they still can. What if they stay outside your apartment? What about staying outside apartment for one week? So many questions
      - gray_-_wolf 7y ago
        It excludes people even temporary present in the apartment. So guests are supposed to be fine. If they are outside and their phone auto-connects, it is technically a breach, yes. I asked about it and have in writing that the intention is to prevent sharing with neighbors. But I mean, there is no way to enforce it either way so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
z3t4 7y ago
In this time and age I think an internet connection is a human right. There should be free internet access, although limited bandwidth, for those who cannot afford it.
- clarry 7y ago
  I agree. The internet should be a bit like roads. Yeah sure, you can put up a toll road somewhere, but you can't generally block people from using the road network.
- mcalus3 7y ago
  In first world countries it is. In Poland since 2009: http://www.prepaid-wireless-internet-access.com/page/Poland+-+Aero2+%28Free+Internet%29 http://www.prepaid-wireless-internet-access.com/page/Poland+...
  - ge0rg 7y ago
    Not universally. In Germany, there is only a federal decree guaranteeing 56kbit/s modem speed, and this is not a human right but merely an obligation to the state telco.
    - chewz 7y ago
      In Poland Aero won its licence on preferential terms with obligation to provide free mobile internet for everyone who wants it. It is limited and many people will rather choose commercial providers (faster, more flexible plans) but it is working and is free. PS. Germany has toll-free highways, Polish are quite expensive..
gaius_baltar 7y ago
Knowing how evil telcos can be, I'm legitimely surprised they didn't exploited this crisis and their virtual monopolies to squeeze more money from customers.
- goda90 7y ago
  I was surprised to hear from a struggling mother of two that Charter of all companies was offering free 60 days of Internet. That should let her kids keep up with online school.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  At a certain level of evil, during a crisis, they risk causing enough trouble to receive congressional attention. The last thing they want is new laws and regulation that impact their future ability to be evil.
Stranger43 7y ago
If the current strategy of making telecommuting the default takes hold post corvid-19 the governments of the industrialized world is going to be forced to treat internet the same way it treats other core infrastructure like roads or railways which means that nationalization will happen if the industry fail to deliver high speed and low prices to the undeserved rural areas.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  There is hope that now politicians will face real pressure from their voters to get Internet regulated as utilities and to properly fund its build-out.
- superhuzza 7y ago
  I'm sure it was probably a typo, but I just want to point out it's COVID-19, not CORVID-19. Don't want anyone mistakenly thinking this is related to birds of the crow family.
  - sp332 7y ago
    I understand why the WHO avoids animal names,but CORVID would have been a much cooler choice.
- unethical_ban 7y ago
  This was my first thought as well. We don't cut off water or electric without plenty of warning, typically months of past due bills or eviction. When the service goes out, it is responded to as a public safety matter.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  I'm not an expert, but my local MUD board has made basically no improvements since the invention of plumbing. I happen to know how their systems work and they are designed to be the deadest-simple things that will work reliably forever. There's no such thing as a "high performance sewage system" unless you count a really big one as high performance. This attitude generalizes to civil engineers in general who prefer safety over experimentation. Now, let's compare this to my state and local governments. They're slow, hate change, they're very careful about who to give money to because their main problem is avoiding corruption. A prominent local politician campaigned and won by promising to vote no on or veto everything. Every slow-down comes from a totally legitimate anti-corruption rule and you aren't going to speed the process up without creating Tammany Hall. My local politicians have only one way to make the news, and that's by messing something up. There is no carrot, only a stick. Those two pictures align perfectly! As a result, my water service has never been interrupted, and I have never gone to the polls with a negative idea about anyone on the MUD board. It's a great system for everyone involved. Now, my question is, how in the world does this work with internet service, an area in which there are changes at a rate greater than once per century?
projektfu 7y ago
Funny language issue - as terminating a connection also means providing an endpoint. Perhaps "Don't disconnect people's internet".
slcjordan 7y ago
I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on net neutrality in light of this new work from home situation. Would it make sense to offer a free tier with limited access?
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Anyone working from home doesn't need a free tier, right? What is a working professional going to do with an internet connection that only goes to Facebook and Wikipedia?
TrackerFF 7y ago
Where I live, it is illegal for utility companies to cut power during winters, for obvious reasons. Same should be for internet. In fact, I'd go as far aa saying thar internet today is an absolute necessity, on par with water and electricity.

304 points by venti 7y ago

Smart message, hopefully it is received at the cell phone companies. I noticed TMobile is going to give everyone unlimited internet for a couple months whether you have that plan or not - but they didn't say if they were going to avoid shutoff's for no pay.

concerned_user 7y ago
For cell phone companies physics is an actual limit, you can have multiple cables laid to improve bandwidth but radio spectrum is only one. You can of course keep making cells of the wireless network smaller and smaller but if you go so small that say each house/apartment has personal one you have invented wi-fi basically.

rammy1234 7y ago

message needed in this time. Please don't think about money in times like this. we need each other and we are all in this together. stay safe and let other's be safe too.

rolph 7y ago

to all those who are blackhat , this is not the time to commit crimes and give people reason to want to dissconnect services, if you are a criminal at least realize that you are overtaxing your bread and butter. give it a break for a while until the system can handle the load of light and dark together

skissane 7y ago
Sadly, I think the people who are irresponsible enough to commit crimes in normal times are also going to be irresponsible enough to commit crimes in a crisis situation, and even to look for ways they can exploit a crisis to their own benefit.
- schoen 7y ago
  For example, there have been COVID-19 phishing and malware scams already. Yes, people are using this pandemic to scam other people!
knappe 7y ago
I'd think that right now blackhat is having the time of their life as more and more holes are opened up to allow for things like remote work as unfortunate as that is.
rolltiide 7y ago
Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean like the RDP marketplaces should slow down so people cant find a computer near the skimmed credit card they bought so that visa transactions go through? Or something more like corporate hacking? Or back to the RDP to install monero mining botnets? I’m just trying to figure out which one you are referring to as “overtaxing”
- rolph 7y ago
  similar to the virus or with any sort of lotka/voltera dynamics you cant take so much of a targets budget that it cant survive, that means if you subsist off others like animals do [consumers] those others[producers] must have enough "stuff" left to stay afloat or everyone goes down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equatio... there is a basis for mutual coexistence, it is a maladaptation for anyone to destroy the basis of your existence. in particular the idea of ransoming or disrupting connectivity and integrity of critical data, info ,services or creating compounding issues. If someone makes thier living doing that, now is not the time for thier own sake as well.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Yeah but the prey for blackhats numbers in the billions. There is an abundance upon which they can gorge.
    - rolph 7y ago
      up to a point when the prey develops a search image and avoids predation. this is when the predator search image must undergo behavioral extinction, and find a prey that can be harvested with some level of success. When exploitable individuals are no longer contactable the interpredatory competition has to thin out the predators, until more predation naive individuals are born or immigrate to the area etc.
  - dorgo 7y ago
    I think tragedy of the commons will prevent this. Why should I hold back if I know that others won't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
zahrc 7y ago
Unfortunately a lot of people lack any common sense or sympathy for others. On the other hand it might be a good time to motivate and teach users to stay safe.
Intermernet 7y ago
In Australia we're already seeing malware installing SMS messages that claim to be virus information updates.I want to find whoever is sending them and let them know how terrible they are. With extreme prejudice.

slovette 7y ago

Eh.. there won’t be. But it’s not because of some altruistic motivations, it’s bad PR and the sheer numbers of lost customers would out weight the benefit of terminating for non-pay.

jascii 7y ago
At least in the US, the few the major residential ISP's have a virtual monopoly so wont loose many customers and have proven in the past not to give a $#@ about bad PR.
- CrazyCatDog 7y ago
  Actually, Comcast has been a hero of late. The have advertised that they will give away basic internet for free, and bumped up the speed of existing subscribers in addition to bumping up their data caps. Asking university students to leave campus is hard. Switching from on-prem to online teaching overnight is harder yet. But teaching across the connectivity divide, where students don’t have access at home and the state just shuttered all the businesses providing “free” Wifi, is impossible. I have been wronged many times by Comcast over the last 24 years; at least from my POV, this offer—provided they abide by it—erases most if not all my ill-will towards them. Well done

nreece 7y ago

Here in Australia, a few responsible providers like Aussie Broadband have already announced unmetered data usage and temporarily stopping all service suspensions. https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-announced-covid-19-response/ https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-ann... Edit: The real test though will be the bandwidth of our gov-sponsored, substandard, widely FTTN (instead of full FTTP).

closeparen 7y ago
I would expect rationing of the available bandwidth to become more important, not less, as the entire population is stuck at home using it all day.
- danielheath 7y ago
  Aussie Broadband have announced unlimited bandwidth for those on limited plans, but also that those few making extreme use of available bandwidth will be throttled. They might slow their connections down, too.
- dcow 7y ago
  That’s if congestion was ever actually a problem to begin with.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    That's what I've been wondering ... will they ever try using "we need zero rating to prevent network overload" again if they'll demonstrate now that they don't?
    - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
      I wish I could say no, but: Yes. In time they could claim - potentially truthfully - that an increasing number of increasingly connected devices engaging in more complex applications by ever more data hungry end users drove additional demand relative to the levels seen in the past, even during past crises.

sys_64738 7y ago

Internet should be viewed as a utility.

nradov 7y ago
Most other utilities charge based on how much you consume.
- runarberg 7y ago
  And most other utilities don’t cut you off if you fail to pay.
  - nradov 7y ago
    Which utilities are those? Electric and gas utilities will absolutely cut off customers who are several months in arrears. Although some areas restrict cut-offs during cold weather. Water utilities usually won't cut off service completely but will install a flow restricted that will allow you just enough water to live. Most areas also have some kind of rate assistance or subsidy program for low income utility customers. But they still have to pay.
    - tehlike 7y ago
      Some utilities decided to not terminate utilities due to non-payment during the current pandemic.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  Most other utilities have cost structures that scale with actual consumption rather than capacity. If you use more water, even if there is plenty of delivery capacity, they could literally run out of it. There is only so much in the reservoir. If you use more electricity, even if there is plenty of transmission capacity, they have to burn more fuel to generate it. Transferring more bits doesn't risk depleting the supply of bits and doesn't require burning more fuel. The worst it can do is consume all of the available transmission capacity. But the amortized cost of a bit is very low -- if you charged true cost then it wouldn't meaningfully deter usage, so you'd still need about the same total amount of transmission capacity. At which point charging for usage serves no legitimate purpose.

goblin89 7y ago

About a month ago my Hong Kong mobile service provider offered subscribers a free local data package. Not unlimited, but a nice gesture.

yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
What's "local" mean here?
- donavanm 7y ago
  Im guessing they meter users differently for traffic going inside and outside the country. On the upstream/provider side it’s not uncommon to see a 2-10x price difference between connectivity inside an island/country vs international carriage.
- goblin89 7y ago
  I believe this is their speak to make it clear you cannot use that data while roaming. There are not enough resources hosted within the region to make the distinction pointed out by donavanm worthwhile, unlike e.g. China or Russia. The local data from my plan gets used up predictably while I access resources in any part of the Internet.
  - taejo 7y ago
    Could it be that they're including the rest of China in local? Are peering arrangements between HK and the rest of China such that this would make sense?
    - goblin89 7y ago
      No, China and Macao both mean roaming data (not included in “local data” quota on regular plans), though the rates are good.

Havoc 7y ago

>We'll mop up society's collective bills at a later point in time Very much doubt faceless corporations with automated billing cycles will take such an altruistic view on this but perhaps I'll be surprised. Most will do the exact opposite I believe. The last financial crash caused massive cashflow issues for the big corps.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

johnminter 7y ago

Here in the US the vendors are not doing this.

johnpowell 7y ago
I use Mintmobile (US) for my cellphone. They are a cheap provider. I pay $180 a year for 2GB of a data a month. They emailed the other day saying data is free for the next month.
tssva 7y ago
AT&T has dropped all data caps, waived any late payment fees, will not terminate service and has opened their WiFi hotspots to everyone. Charter is waiving late fees, not terminating service, offering free service to households with students which don't already have service and opening their WiFi hotspots to everyone. Verizon is waiving late fees and will not terminate service. Cox is waiving late fees, not terminating service, opening WiFi hotspots to all and upgrading speeds on connections in their programs for low income customers to 50Mbs. Comcast is eliminating data caps, waiving late fees, not terminating service, opening WiFi hotspots to all and offering 2 months of free service to those eligible for but not enrolled in their $9.95 per month program for low-income families. They are also increasing data rates for their low-income program connections. Many other providers have also pledged to not terminate service.
bhauer 7y ago
I was pretty sure most US Internet vendors pledged [1] to "not terminate service to any residential or small business customers because of their inability to pay their bills due to the disruptions caused by the coronavirus pandemic." [1] https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363033A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-363033A1.pdf
scarejunba 7y ago
As far as I know Sonic's fibre has never had any caps. I for one have never hit them.

wwarner 7y ago

I'll play the devil's advocate. Bandwidth is a finite resource, and it could be in critically short supply. In those circumstances, I wouldn't expect everyone to get more bandwidth, I'd expect it to be rationed.

AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
The problem is how do you establish effective rationing with no preparation? It's nigh impossible. Even with preparation, It would be a very difficult and impossibly contentious process.
- wwarner 7y ago
  For the downvoters, I'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits doesn't automatically create abundance. As far as establishing effective policy: ISPs have a lot of practice rationing bandwidth, I'm sure there's a way that's fair enough. Putting a price on it is a good start.
  - Johnny555 7y ago
    For the downvoters, I'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits doesn't automatically create abundance. True, and if they can provide reliable service without the data caps, then it makes the public (and in a perfect world, government regulators) question why they need the data caps at all -- if their network runs fine for months without any data caps, then why do they need those caps at all?
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    It's easier and fairer to load balance and keep upgrading backhauls when they get full.
- Johnny555 7y ago
  Do you mean from a technical or business perspective? Technically Comcast could implement it overnight by reducing everyone's data speed (or maybe throttling particular services), or instituting stricter data caps. From a business perspective it's harder but if it was the only way they could keep their network afloat, I'm sure the could get the FCC to let them implement emergency throttling.

znpy 7y ago

Here in italy Fastweb pledged set up a 1-million gigabytes traffc pool from which all subscribers draw automatically. Once the million is over, traffic will be drawn from the account (granted, Fastweb offers ~50 GB/month for 9.90/month). This is for now, i wouldn't be surprised if they extend it later on. The thing is, Fastweb is big in residential internet connection but pretty minor as mobile provider. No word from major providers (Vodafone, Tim, Iliad)

dingo454 7y ago
Currently for me 4G is the only option to work remotely (the only alternative would be going with a wimax provider, or sat). I don't normally incur in the data size caps, but I will soon in the current situation, even when trying to be conservative. It also doesn't seem worthwhile to switch at the moment, since other solutions require a 1-2 year contract which I do not need (not to mention, it would also take 2-3 weeks to get a connection with those anyway).

zajio1am 7y ago

The message does not really make much sense to me. Both service payments and pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online, so it is not affected by coronavirus and lockdowns. We do not really know how long it will take. Emergency state and lockdowns may be the new normal. Everything that could work as usual should work as usual to not cause additional disruption.

lainga 7y ago
I think the problem the article was communicating is running out of money if your job is hit (and you live next to a network engineer slash mooch)
simion314 7y ago
>Both service payments and pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online, You could be in hospital or you always pay cache not online, many people pay everything with money in hand in shops(that have such payment points) here in Romania, also if you have a smartphone I imagine attempting to setup accounts and try to pay online from the phone is a pain.

fargle 7y ago

Overall, maybe a good sentiment and maybe a good idea. In many areas I think this is being done. However, I don't at all like the argument that if your neighbor can't pay her bill, it might not just impact her, but two of her neighbors, one of which is some kind of network engineer who fixes BGP thingies. And neither of the leaching neighbors who have some kind of critical need of her internet can help pay for it??? If you can fix BGP thingies, you ought to have your own WiFi, or be able to do better than leaching it.

lightgreen 7y ago
On the internet this sentiment is called virtue signalling: it costs you nothing, but people around you think you are a good guy.
- GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
  Except this "sentiment" will genuinely help people who lose their jobs due to corona and won't be able to pay bills. That extra money from not paying a bill can really help out.
  - lightgreen 7y ago
    If they won’t be paying for food, paying rent, paying for commute, paying for gas, the life of people who lost jobs due to corona will also be much easier. What’s so special about internet? Nothing.
  - lightgreen 7y ago
    Also, this sentiment will actually help nobody: if some isp decides to stop taking money for internet, they will do it without suggestion by ripe. That original post was virtue signaling, noise with no practical outcome. On the other hang people who actually spend resources (for example those isp who continue to provide the internet to those who lost jobs) actually make change, and we are thankful to them.
  - fargle 7y ago
    AND... I didn't say it was a bad thing. But it is bad that you have two people leaching off some hypothetical other person's WiFi, neither of which is willing to pay for their own or help her. And you aren't "fixing BGP thingies" for free or if you are out of work. Why isn't the mooching neighbor helping pay? I'm ALL for the ISP's relieving bandwidth caps and not cutting service due to emergency related financial difficulties - for their subscribers.

mirimir 7y ago

> To illustrate, in the Netherlands we are in lockdown, because of the COVID-19 hazard: you are expected to only leave your house if it is absolutely critical, such as to pick up food from the food distribution centers, to get meds, to go work in a hospital, etc. You have food distribution centers? I'm jealous.

MonaroVXR 7y ago
I'm from the Netherlands, I think what he means is supermarket. Because distribution centers deliver food to the super market itself instead of the customers. Otherwise I'm not sure what he/she is talking about. We have a full lockdown, yet everyone is outside and it's really crowded. There aren't people that give a (...) About the situation, especially in this city, because most of the people are higher educated.
- eythian 7y ago
  We don't have a full lockdown. We have "work from home if you at all can, try not to socialise, etc." It's certainly not "you may only go out if you're going to the supermarket, pharmacy, hospital or you risk fines." Many shops are still open, for example. This said, I also wouldn't say it's really crowded, I took the tram in to the office this morning to pick some stuff up (last day that'll be possible for a few weeks) and it was very quiet.
aardshark 7y ago
I'm not even sure what he's talking about. The Netherlands is not on lockdown, not compared to Spain or Italy for example. Anywhere people might gather is closed and the public are encouraged to practice 'social distancing'. But the army/police are not in the streets making sure people stay at home.

vmokry 7y ago

If you live in a condo, what about sharing your internet on the guest WIFI network? Does it make sense? Will people misuse it? (It probably violates TOS, I guess.)

paganel 7y ago
Not sure about any TOS but I’ve been sharing my WiFi for more than 10 years now. I live in an appartment block in an Eastern European capital.
- gray_-_wolf 7y ago
  I guess it depends. At least in my contract for connectivity is a clause then I cannot share the connection with people not living in the same household. I would imagine it is fairly common.
  - capableweb 7y ago
    Does that mean you cannot have guests using your connectivity? I'm assuming they still can. What if they stay outside your apartment? What about staying outside apartment for one week? So many questions
    - gray_-_wolf 7y ago
      It excludes people even temporary present in the apartment. So guests are supposed to be fine. If they are outside and their phone auto-connects, it is technically a breach, yes. I asked about it and have in writing that the intention is to prevent sharing with neighbors. But I mean, there is no way to enforce it either way so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

z3t4 7y ago

In this time and age I think an internet connection is a human right. There should be free internet access, although limited bandwidth, for those who cannot afford it.

clarry 7y ago
I agree. The internet should be a bit like roads. Yeah sure, you can put up a toll road somewhere, but you can't generally block people from using the road network.
mcalus3 7y ago
In first world countries it is. In Poland since 2009: http://www.prepaid-wireless-internet-access.com/page/Poland+-+Aero2+%28Free+Internet%29 http://www.prepaid-wireless-internet-access.com/page/Poland+...
- ge0rg 7y ago
  Not universally. In Germany, there is only a federal decree guaranteeing 56kbit/s modem speed, and this is not a human right but merely an obligation to the state telco.
  - chewz 7y ago
    In Poland Aero won its licence on preferential terms with obligation to provide free mobile internet for everyone who wants it. It is limited and many people will rather choose commercial providers (faster, more flexible plans) but it is working and is free. PS. Germany has toll-free highways, Polish are quite expensive..

gaius_baltar 7y ago

Knowing how evil telcos can be, I'm legitimely surprised they didn't exploited this crisis and their virtual monopolies to squeeze more money from customers.

goda90 7y ago
I was surprised to hear from a struggling mother of two that Charter of all companies was offering free 60 days of Internet. That should let her kids keep up with online school.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
At a certain level of evil, during a crisis, they risk causing enough trouble to receive congressional attention. The last thing they want is new laws and regulation that impact their future ability to be evil.

Stranger43 7y ago

If the current strategy of making telecommuting the default takes hold post corvid-19 the governments of the industrialized world is going to be forced to treat internet the same way it treats other core infrastructure like roads or railways which means that nationalization will happen if the industry fail to deliver high speed and low prices to the undeserved rural areas.

mschuster91 7y ago
There is hope that now politicians will face real pressure from their voters to get Internet regulated as utilities and to properly fund its build-out.
superhuzza 7y ago
I'm sure it was probably a typo, but I just want to point out it's COVID-19, not CORVID-19. Don't want anyone mistakenly thinking this is related to birds of the crow family.
- sp332 7y ago
  I understand why the WHO avoids animal names,but CORVID would have been a much cooler choice.
unethical_ban 7y ago
This was my first thought as well. We don't cut off water or electric without plenty of warning, typically months of past due bills or eviction. When the service goes out, it is responded to as a public safety matter.
whatshisface 7y ago
I'm not an expert, but my local MUD board has made basically no improvements since the invention of plumbing. I happen to know how their systems work and they are designed to be the deadest-simple things that will work reliably forever. There's no such thing as a "high performance sewage system" unless you count a really big one as high performance. This attitude generalizes to civil engineers in general who prefer safety over experimentation. Now, let's compare this to my state and local governments. They're slow, hate change, they're very careful about who to give money to because their main problem is avoiding corruption. A prominent local politician campaigned and won by promising to vote no on or veto everything. Every slow-down comes from a totally legitimate anti-corruption rule and you aren't going to speed the process up without creating Tammany Hall. My local politicians have only one way to make the news, and that's by messing something up. There is no carrot, only a stick. Those two pictures align perfectly! As a result, my water service has never been interrupted, and I have never gone to the polls with a negative idea about anyone on the MUD board. It's a great system for everyone involved. Now, my question is, how in the world does this work with internet service, an area in which there are changes at a rate greater than once per century?

projektfu 7y ago

Funny language issue - as terminating a connection also means providing an endpoint. Perhaps "Don't disconnect people's internet".

slcjordan 7y ago

I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on net neutrality in light of this new work from home situation. Would it make sense to offer a free tier with limited access?

whatshisface 7y ago
Anyone working from home doesn't need a free tier, right? What is a working professional going to do with an internet connection that only goes to Facebook and Wikipedia?

TrackerFF 7y ago

Where I live, it is illegal for utility companies to cut power during winters, for obvious reasons. Same should be for internet. In fact, I'd go as far aa saying thar internet today is an absolute necessity, on par with water and electricity.