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Epstein didn't kill himself. Video footage "accidentally" deleted and the backup footage also lost due to "technical errors." His death and a cleanup so slove

Epstein didn't kill himself. Video footage "accidentally" deleted and the backup footage also lost due to "technical errors." His death and a cleanup so slovenly and brazenly done in front of the public eye is a mockery of America as a nation of "liberty and justice for all."

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zamalek 7y ago
Irrespective of the trueness or falseness of this, it is completely off-topic.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  It is off-topic, but that's not uncommon on HN — and it's certainly one of the most important points that can be made from the Epstein case.
- tptacek 7y ago
  This comment is downvoted, but shouldn't be: "Epstein didn't kill himself" clearly is off-topic for the thread, and the resulting "discussion" ate the whole thread. 'zamalek is absolutely right.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pen2l 7y ago
    What's wrong with being a little bit off-topic every now and then as long as it's somewhat interesting? For a lot of us, HN is a big part of our lives, it's our water-cooler place where we come to chat and wind down. I was myself curious to hear what folks here thought of the "Epstein didn't kill himself" trope.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
Kind of impressive, and nice in a way - - since it is so obviously corrupt and we become aware of it because the case is so high profile. Makes you wonder who pulled it off and how often things like it occur.
- root_axis 7y ago
  The attorney general confirmed it was a suicide, so if we're to believe it was actually a surreptitious murder, it goes all the way to the top.
  - zepto 7y ago
    Assisted suicide?
  - voldacar 7y ago
    It is quite possible he was taken off suicide watch so he could... commit suicide. It wouldn't have to be a murder in the technical sense
    - trhway 7y ago
      the video of the first "suicide attempt" was lost too - due to technical error, accidentally erased or some "Oopss!" like this... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-jail-cell-video-of-sex-offenders-first-suicide-attempt-goes-missing/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-jail-cell-video...
  - colordrops 7y ago
    Of course it goes to the top. Just look at Epstein's cohorts.
  - akersten 7y ago
    Considering his involvement in Iran-Contra and deliberate derailing of Congressional oversight, I wouldn't believe a word the current attorney general says. Especially because the case disappearing is clearly convenient for people personally connected to the AG, or to whom the AG owes a favor.
onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
This happens MUCH less today than at any time in the past. Only 2 generations ago, stuff like this was happening on a daily basis everywhere in the world. This was basically what justice used to be. The world is not fair. There is little justice. But it's more fair and just than it's ever been before, by far. Maybe we've taken a step back in the last 10 years. It's hard to say. But compared to even 50 years ago, we are so far ahead it's unbelievable. 100 years, and it's basically a different world.
- Ohn0 7y ago
  "America" is different than "everywhere in the world"
  - onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
    Where? Germany today definitely seems better than Nazi Germany -- copy that for almost all of Europe. Japan today is definitely better than Tojo. Russia today is probably better than Soviet Russia. Maybe it's worse. It's still bad. Copy that for China, but I can't imagine it's worse than Mao. South East Asia seems a lot better off without the Khmer Rogue running around. Isis is fucking up the middle east and MBS is terrible, but at least women have some rights and their courts aren't an absolute complete joke anymore. I don't know much about India -- but it definitely seems like it's improving vs the recent past. I don't really know anything about South America or Africa or Australia -- but if you think there was more justice in the Aztec or Inca Empires than there is today, you're mistaken. Sure, things are way worse in some pockets I guarantee -- see Syria. The world as a whole is getting better and fairer. And if you think anywhere in the world wasn't killing people on a regular basis for political motives and getting away with it Scott Free, I think you should read about Kingdoms and Empires and Slavery and Feudalism -- you know, the things civilazation ran on until relatively recently. And if you think "Modern Day Slavery" is anywhere near as bad as "Real Slavery" -- again, you're completely mistaken. Go back 300 years, and you could kill your wife almost anywhere for almost any reason. Nevermind "Royalty" being able to get away with anything.
    - josefx 7y ago
krick 7y ago
We all kind of know that, yet it still remain just a "conspiracy theory" which no decent person will dare to publicly acknowledge. Yeah, another one.
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  “Suicide” is also a totally unfounded accusation on paar with a conspiracy theory: There isn’t a single proof of suicide. Yet all the newspapers repeated it gullibly until social media made it impossible to ignore the opposite. So why wasn’t this affirmation entirely disqualified first hand? At best, the doctor can affirm that Epstein died. Little more. Suicide is associating a storytelling, a blatantly lying storytelling in the face of the public as long as no proof of intent was even available when the suicide was affirmed. We basically know nothing on the circumstances of his death, so the suicide word was more than unfounded.
Waterluvian 7y ago
Great claims require great evidence. Your claim makes me increasingly skeptical, but I require a lot more. What is the best, least crackpot looking resource to dig into the _facts_?
- grey-area 7y ago
  The cctv footage existed, it has now been ‘accidentally deleted’. The chances of this happening on a high profile case are infinitesimally small. So on the contrary the great claim requiring evidence is that this was a completely normal suicide in prison. Where is the evidence this video was deleted by mistake? https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/10/us/09reuters-people-jeffrey-epstein-video.html https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/10/us/09reuters-peop...
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    I hear you. But the absence of evidence is not evidence of a crime. You've got your reasoning inverted. "Show me the evidence that there isn't a giant space walrus on the far side of Neptune. Otherwise we must conclude there is one. " I'd like links to sensible aggregate sources and discussion. I don't want to have the discussion here.
    - Supermancho 7y ago
      Debating that there wasn't a conspiracy is different than debating if he killed himself (which can't be proven). So far, there has been a coordinated effort to obscure accountability and records. This is SOP for the US Federal Government, when trying to hide misdeeds from the US population. Typically, we only get windows into what happened later when political opponents need ammunition or decades later when there are deathbed admissions.
      - Waterluvian 7y ago
        Again, _any_ solid links about this discussion? The main tell tale sign of crackpots is that they'll tell you a big earful of conspiracy. If they had a solid case they'd just share a link to a solid case. A link with analysis filled with references all the way down to primary sources. I'm always so dissatisfied when I ask for evidence for these things.
mhh__ 7y ago
I think it's more likely that he or people around him pulled strings so he could kill himself rather than he be killed.
- wwweston 7y ago
  If he's powerful enough to pull strings to kill himself, why wouldn't he pull strings to disappear? If I want a conspiracy theory involving Epstein's power here, it's going to be that this is how you disappear if you're powerful enough, and the phrase "Epstein didn't kill himself" is correct not because his death wasn't a suicide, but because it's not his death.
  - mhh__ 7y ago
    Disappearing is a lot harder than offing yourself.
ww520 7y ago
Funny how the players are all intertwined in the loss of the suicide video. https://i.redd.it/6pg6wj8toy941.png https://i.redd.it/6pg6wj8toy941.png
- dguaraglia 7y ago
  Not in the picture: the President of the United States and very close friend to Epstein, Donald Trump.
  - ww520 7y ago
    Are you saying Donald Trump work with James Comey's daughter Maurene Comey (the assistant prosecutor for the Epstein's case) to destroy the suicide video?
    - dguaraglia 7y ago
      No. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of conspiracy theories trying to link people who had at best tangential relationships with Epstein with his demise, but somehow manage to ignore that literally the most powerful man on planet Earth had a lot to lose from Epstein's indiscretions becoming public. It's interesting how conspiracy theories seem to always have a very particular... 'conservative' bias.
      - ww520 7y ago
        So the Russian collusion conspiracy is a "conservative" bias. That's pretty interesting.
        dguaraglia 7y ago
        I don't want to use HN to discuss politics, but notice that the 'Russian collusion conspiracy' is not a conspiracy theory. Donald Trump Jr himself published the emails setting up a meeting with a Russian lawyer which - he admitted - was supposed to yield information that'd help his father in the election. That makes it the very definition of a real conspiracy, right?
pastor_elm 7y ago
occam's razor says you're wrong.
- lkschubert8 7y ago
  Occam's razor isn't a law, just a heuristic.
- harry8 7y ago
  You toss a coin 8 times and are told you get 8 heads, you wanted tails, the person reporting this to you wanted heads on each occasion. By occam's razor is 8 heads a simpler explanation than you were lied to? One toss, you couldn't really detect much smell. But 8? Does it stink? Any one of these things, camera footage x2, cell mate, suicide watch removal, plea deal, guards asleep x2, association with the current president, Bill Clinton, actual royalty, just for starters... and we can keep going with these coincidences. Any one, fine, happens. Any three, ok, weird, but not totally outside expectation. But we're kind of beyond that. It just stinks. If it's all just a massive coincidence that all these independent things "just happened" that needs support because it seems the assumption that all those events are independent is shaky, at best. Shaky by occam's razor heuristic. 0.9^8 is less than 50% So it should be looked at closely on principle. With or without support from occam's razor.
GhostVII 7y ago
What actual evidence do you have that he was murdered? I think it is much more likely that someone who was going to be in prison for the rest of his life, and who previously attempted suicide, killed himself rather than being murdered by someone in the prison. There is footage of the guards falsifying time sheets, so to me it seems like a pretty clear case of negligence. I recall reading an FBI report about the suicide, where they said that they watched footage of the outside of the cell at the time of his suicide, but I can't find it back.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

zamalek 7y ago

Irrespective of the trueness or falseness of this, it is completely off-topic.

JasonFruit 7y ago
It is off-topic, but that's not uncommon on HN — and it's certainly one of the most important points that can be made from the Epstein case.
tptacek 7y ago
This comment is downvoted, but shouldn't be: "Epstein didn't kill himself" clearly is off-topic for the thread, and the resulting "discussion" ate the whole thread. 'zamalek is absolutely right.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pen2l 7y ago
  What's wrong with being a little bit off-topic every now and then as long as it's somewhat interesting? For a lot of us, HN is a big part of our lives, it's our water-cooler place where we come to chat and wind down. I was myself curious to hear what folks here thought of the "Epstein didn't kill himself" trope.

dr_dshiv 7y ago

Kind of impressive, and nice in a way - - since it is so obviously corrupt and we become aware of it because the case is so high profile. Makes you wonder who pulled it off and how often things like it occur.

root_axis 7y ago
The attorney general confirmed it was a suicide, so if we're to believe it was actually a surreptitious murder, it goes all the way to the top.
- zepto 7y ago
  Assisted suicide?
- voldacar 7y ago
  It is quite possible he was taken off suicide watch so he could... commit suicide. It wouldn't have to be a murder in the technical sense
  - trhway 7y ago
    the video of the first "suicide attempt" was lost too - due to technical error, accidentally erased or some "Oopss!" like this... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-jail-cell-video-of-sex-offenders-first-suicide-attempt-goes-missing/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-jail-cell-video...
- colordrops 7y ago
  Of course it goes to the top. Just look at Epstein's cohorts.
- akersten 7y ago
  Considering his involvement in Iran-Contra and deliberate derailing of Congressional oversight, I wouldn't believe a word the current attorney general says. Especially because the case disappearing is clearly convenient for people personally connected to the AG, or to whom the AG owes a favor.

onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago

This happens MUCH less today than at any time in the past. Only 2 generations ago, stuff like this was happening on a daily basis everywhere in the world. This was basically what justice used to be. The world is not fair. There is little justice. But it's more fair and just than it's ever been before, by far. Maybe we've taken a step back in the last 10 years. It's hard to say. But compared to even 50 years ago, we are so far ahead it's unbelievable. 100 years, and it's basically a different world.

Ohn0 7y ago
"America" is different than "everywhere in the world"
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y ago
  Where? Germany today definitely seems better than Nazi Germany -- copy that for almost all of Europe. Japan today is definitely better than Tojo. Russia today is probably better than Soviet Russia. Maybe it's worse. It's still bad. Copy that for China, but I can't imagine it's worse than Mao. South East Asia seems a lot better off without the Khmer Rogue running around. Isis is fucking up the middle east and MBS is terrible, but at least women have some rights and their courts aren't an absolute complete joke anymore. I don't know much about India -- but it definitely seems like it's improving vs the recent past. I don't really know anything about South America or Africa or Australia -- but if you think there was more justice in the Aztec or Inca Empires than there is today, you're mistaken. Sure, things are way worse in some pockets I guarantee -- see Syria. The world as a whole is getting better and fairer. And if you think anywhere in the world wasn't killing people on a regular basis for political motives and getting away with it Scott Free, I think you should read about Kingdoms and Empires and Slavery and Feudalism -- you know, the things civilazation ran on until relatively recently. And if you think "Modern Day Slavery" is anywhere near as bad as "Real Slavery" -- again, you're completely mistaken. Go back 300 years, and you could kill your wife almost anywhere for almost any reason. Nevermind "Royalty" being able to get away with anything.
  - josefx 7y ago

krick 7y ago

We all kind of know that, yet it still remain just a "conspiracy theory" which no decent person will dare to publicly acknowledge. Yeah, another one.

alexis_fr 7y ago
“Suicide” is also a totally unfounded accusation on paar with a conspiracy theory: There isn’t a single proof of suicide. Yet all the newspapers repeated it gullibly until social media made it impossible to ignore the opposite. So why wasn’t this affirmation entirely disqualified first hand? At best, the doctor can affirm that Epstein died. Little more. Suicide is associating a storytelling, a blatantly lying storytelling in the face of the public as long as no proof of intent was even available when the suicide was affirmed. We basically know nothing on the circumstances of his death, so the suicide word was more than unfounded.

Waterluvian 7y ago

Great claims require great evidence. Your claim makes me increasingly skeptical, but I require a lot more. What is the best, least crackpot looking resource to dig into the _facts_?

grey-area 7y ago
The cctv footage existed, it has now been ‘accidentally deleted’. The chances of this happening on a high profile case are infinitesimally small. So on the contrary the great claim requiring evidence is that this was a completely normal suicide in prison. Where is the evidence this video was deleted by mistake? https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/10/us/09reuters-people-jeffrey-epstein-video.html https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/01/10/us/09reuters-peop...
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I hear you. But the absence of evidence is not evidence of a crime. You've got your reasoning inverted. "Show me the evidence that there isn't a giant space walrus on the far side of Neptune. Otherwise we must conclude there is one. " I'd like links to sensible aggregate sources and discussion. I don't want to have the discussion here.
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    Debating that there wasn't a conspiracy is different than debating if he killed himself (which can't be proven). So far, there has been a coordinated effort to obscure accountability and records. This is SOP for the US Federal Government, when trying to hide misdeeds from the US population. Typically, we only get windows into what happened later when political opponents need ammunition or decades later when there are deathbed admissions.
    - Waterluvian 7y ago
      Again, _any_ solid links about this discussion? The main tell tale sign of crackpots is that they'll tell you a big earful of conspiracy. If they had a solid case they'd just share a link to a solid case. A link with analysis filled with references all the way down to primary sources. I'm always so dissatisfied when I ask for evidence for these things.

mhh__ 7y ago

I think it's more likely that he or people around him pulled strings so he could kill himself rather than he be killed.

wwweston 7y ago
If he's powerful enough to pull strings to kill himself, why wouldn't he pull strings to disappear? If I want a conspiracy theory involving Epstein's power here, it's going to be that this is how you disappear if you're powerful enough, and the phrase "Epstein didn't kill himself" is correct not because his death wasn't a suicide, but because it's not his death.
- mhh__ 7y ago
  Disappearing is a lot harder than offing yourself.

ww520 7y ago

Funny how the players are all intertwined in the loss of the suicide video. https://i.redd.it/6pg6wj8toy941.png https://i.redd.it/6pg6wj8toy941.png

dguaraglia 7y ago
Not in the picture: the President of the United States and very close friend to Epstein, Donald Trump.
- ww520 7y ago
  Are you saying Donald Trump work with James Comey's daughter Maurene Comey (the assistant prosecutor for the Epstein's case) to destroy the suicide video?
  - dguaraglia 7y ago
    No. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of conspiracy theories trying to link people who had at best tangential relationships with Epstein with his demise, but somehow manage to ignore that literally the most powerful man on planet Earth had a lot to lose from Epstein's indiscretions becoming public. It's interesting how conspiracy theories seem to always have a very particular... 'conservative' bias.
    - ww520 7y ago
      So the Russian collusion conspiracy is a "conservative" bias. That's pretty interesting.
      - dguaraglia 7y ago
        I don't want to use HN to discuss politics, but notice that the 'Russian collusion conspiracy' is not a conspiracy theory. Donald Trump Jr himself published the emails setting up a meeting with a Russian lawyer which - he admitted - was supposed to yield information that'd help his father in the election. That makes it the very definition of a real conspiracy, right?

pastor_elm 7y ago

occam's razor says you're wrong.

lkschubert8 7y ago
Occam's razor isn't a law, just a heuristic.
harry8 7y ago
You toss a coin 8 times and are told you get 8 heads, you wanted tails, the person reporting this to you wanted heads on each occasion. By occam's razor is 8 heads a simpler explanation than you were lied to? One toss, you couldn't really detect much smell. But 8? Does it stink? Any one of these things, camera footage x2, cell mate, suicide watch removal, plea deal, guards asleep x2, association with the current president, Bill Clinton, actual royalty, just for starters... and we can keep going with these coincidences. Any one, fine, happens. Any three, ok, weird, but not totally outside expectation. But we're kind of beyond that. It just stinks. If it's all just a massive coincidence that all these independent things "just happened" that needs support because it seems the assumption that all those events are independent is shaky, at best. Shaky by occam's razor heuristic. 0.9^8 is less than 50% So it should be looked at closely on principle. With or without support from occam's razor.

GhostVII 7y ago

What actual evidence do you have that he was murdered? I think it is much more likely that someone who was going to be in prison for the rest of his life, and who previously attempted suicide, killed himself rather than being murdered by someone in the prison. There is footage of the guards falsifying time sheets, so to me it seems like a pretty clear case of negligence. I recall reading an FBI report about the suicide, where they said that they watched footage of the outside of the cell at the time of his suicide, but I can't find it back.