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I just realised we just spent more on 5 days for a holiday rental over Christmas than this family received for selling 2 kidneys to try and escape their debt. I

I just realised we just spent more on 5 days for a holiday rental over Christmas than this family received for selling 2 kidneys to try and escape their debt. It’s crushing to read stories like these. Surely there must be some sort of structural reform possible to “the way the world works” to prevent this absurd imbalance.

adventured 7y ago
It's an incredible financial challenge, to say the least. In 1960 Pakistan had 25% the population of the US at about 2.7% the GDP per capita of the US. Today Pakistan has 60% of the population of the US at about 2.4% the GDP per capita of the US. The vast majority of developing countries have gained considerable ground on the US over that time on a per capita output basis, Pakistan has lost ground. To bring Pakistan up to the output level per capita of China or Russia (roughly near the world average; plausibly giving them the necessary room to make considerable employment, social welfare and infrastructure improvements) - Pakistan needs to add about $1.8 trillion per year to its economic output, an economy nearly the size of Italy or Brazil. To reach the level of Croatia, their output has to climb by $2.6 trillion per year, an economy the size of France. I don't see how the world can change anything structurally outside of Pakistan, in terms of how the world works, that will dent that enormous scale of a financial problem. Pakistan has to change dramatically internally. China and many other countries have managed that sort of prominent internal change over time, hopefully Pakistan can as well.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  While the poverty of Pakistan is indeed a problem, I would argue that it is not the cause of this situation. This situation is human exploitation backed by the government. The change needed here requires political, not just economic changes. I would suggest that this form of servitude is part of the cause of Pakistan's limited economic growth. Minimum wage and the ability to declare bankruptcy would go a long way to disrupting this particular status quo.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    There was a man surnamed Bhutto. He tried. The thing was really not about Bhutto being a socialist or anybody, but because he touched major landlors. Take a look at astronomical land prices in the country. Then think how land prices got so high in the country so poor. Now look who are the biggest land owners.
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      Your comment would be more interesting and constructive if you you provided information (ideally with references) rather than asking rhetorical questions. As it is, I don't really know what point you are trying to make.
      - baybal2 7y ago
        Will gladly provide it you. Pakistan is largely an agrarian feudal society, even with some new nouveau riche coming industrialist families. Coincidentally many military families do make Pakistani "old money" class. Generals make for huge portion of land owners (they are even few kanals of prime rib agricultural lands in their official retirement package.) The second biggest real estate company in the country also belong the the army. Any reform that threatens land value get instantaneously attacked by them, politicians get killed. Even when laws pass the parliament, local authorities under control of landlord class will do everything they can to sabotage their implementation though active and passive resistance.
        selimthegrim 7y ago
        As I recall, the part of Punjab tenancy act from the Raj that gave tenant first right of refusal upon sale of the land was overturned by Zia’s Federal Sharia bench in 1980s
- specialist 7y ago
  We should get Biblical. No half measures. Periodically forgive all debts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) I'm curious, but ignorant, of the Quran's notion of riba, the prohibition on interest payments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba More close to home, I'd like more discussion about our own debt-based economy. The emphasis on rent seeking. The "Gig Economy", where people pay for the opportunity to work, aka pay for play, franchising. All these weird MLM schemes. Update: I forgot to mention Freedom Markets™, my pejorative for the cult of laissez faire, might makes right, I've-got-mine-screw-you, and other misanthropic notions.
  - 1996 7y ago
    You clearly have an ideological opposition to capitalism, and that taint your views. The Bible or the Quran can't protect you for the human natural desire and need to make money. You should google about islamic banks to know what happens when interest is banned. Hint: the difference is just cosmetic. So if christians implemented a jubilee, I have no doubt it would be baked into some credit score and automatically increase all cost for people who took advantage of it - that or something else essentially similar. The best thing that can happen to countries like Pakistan? Capitalism. Free market. People are not stupid. They look at the neighboring countries who have more economically liberal regimes, see what they get, and vote with their feet.
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      Compared to socialist India until 1991 they were capitalist and free market
    - specialist 7y ago
      Are you sure that Pakistan's system of bonded service is capitalism? Perhaps we have different definitions. I checked wiki, dictionary.com and there's no mention of slavery, usury.
      - 1996 7y ago
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  I’m assuming these are West Pakistan stats in 1960?
lotsofpulp 7y ago
>Surely there must be some sort of structural reform possible to “the way the world works” to prevent this absurd imbalance. Yes, it's called redistributing wealth from those that have it, to those that don't. That means people that have large homes, yards, SUVs, vacations requiring flights, give them up, and pour their resources into lifting up those that don't have it. And not just money, but time and effort to educate the uneducated and impoverished, and blood to fight the oppressors. It's not a realistic goal, hence it's "the way the world works". It does help one appreciate how lucky one is to be born in the right place at the right time.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  The primary problem with this suggestion is that it ignores the actual problem. The barriers to the common man's prosperity in Pakistan are erected by the political elites in Pakistan. A world where you can meaningfully talk about employing redistribution is a world where you have already removed those elites and empowered the population against them: a world in which we're having a rather different argument.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Removing those elites is what I meant when I wrote "blood to fight the oppressors", aka war.
    - fennecfoxen 7y ago
      If we are advocating revolution, the next thing is for Pakistan to actually meaningfully industrialize, and gain sufficient wealth — redistributing what already exists only goes a short way. In the ideal case this involves the world economy, and probably looks like outside investment building factories, and the factories paying Pakistani people mediocre money while the new government builds institutions suitable for a modern economy — courts that respect the rule of law, laws that provide a balance between the needs of capital suppliers and labor, laws that promote meaningful competition instead of entrenching well-connected political elites, and a modern education system. The likelier alternative is they eschew participation in the world economy, building things from scratch themselves, doing it badly, without a rule of law, with a bad education system, with heavy state involvement that provides power to well-connected political elites, and a populist attitude which ignores the needs of capital, promoting empty slogans about economic justice instead of committing to the hard work and sacrifice associated with actually achieving it. The net result will be depressed capital formation, with an economy tilted towards state-run sectors and large companies which are friendly with the new regime. Since capital is important for productivity, the economy will continue to stagnate, though presumably it will see some improvement (it'd be hard not to at this point).
dash2 7y ago
Maybe focus on the doable rather than on grand structural reforms. Pakistan could be pressured to improve legal protections for labourers. There could be land redistribution or a redistributive welfare state. All of these have happened in other developing countries, without world revolution or armed struggle.
- baybal2 7y ago
  Bonded labour has been outlawed multiple times on paper. There were some show trials of kiln owners. Believe me or not, a lot of bonded labourers are so down on the bottom that they don't even know that they can sue their usurers in the court.

adventured 7y ago

It's an incredible financial challenge, to say the least. In 1960 Pakistan had 25% the population of the US at about 2.7% the GDP per capita of the US. Today Pakistan has 60% of the population of the US at about 2.4% the GDP per capita of the US. The vast majority of developing countries have gained considerable ground on the US over that time on a per capita output basis, Pakistan has lost ground. To bring Pakistan up to the output level per capita of China or Russia (roughly near the world average; plausibly giving them the necessary room to make considerable employment, social welfare and infrastructure improvements) - Pakistan needs to add about $1.8 trillion per year to its economic output, an economy nearly the size of Italy or Brazil. To reach the level of Croatia, their output has to climb by $2.6 trillion per year, an economy the size of France. I don't see how the world can change anything structurally outside of Pakistan, in terms of how the world works, that will dent that enormous scale of a financial problem. Pakistan has to change dramatically internally. China and many other countries have managed that sort of prominent internal change over time, hopefully Pakistan can as well.

shkkmo 7y ago
While the poverty of Pakistan is indeed a problem, I would argue that it is not the cause of this situation. This situation is human exploitation backed by the government. The change needed here requires political, not just economic changes. I would suggest that this form of servitude is part of the cause of Pakistan's limited economic growth. Minimum wage and the ability to declare bankruptcy would go a long way to disrupting this particular status quo.
- baybal2 7y ago
  There was a man surnamed Bhutto. He tried. The thing was really not about Bhutto being a socialist or anybody, but because he touched major landlors. Take a look at astronomical land prices in the country. Then think how land prices got so high in the country so poor. Now look who are the biggest land owners.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    Your comment would be more interesting and constructive if you you provided information (ideally with references) rather than asking rhetorical questions. As it is, I don't really know what point you are trying to make.
    - baybal2 7y ago
      Will gladly provide it you. Pakistan is largely an agrarian feudal society, even with some new nouveau riche coming industrialist families. Coincidentally many military families do make Pakistani "old money" class. Generals make for huge portion of land owners (they are even few kanals of prime rib agricultural lands in their official retirement package.) The second biggest real estate company in the country also belong the the army. Any reform that threatens land value get instantaneously attacked by them, politicians get killed. Even when laws pass the parliament, local authorities under control of landlord class will do everything they can to sabotage their implementation though active and passive resistance.
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        As I recall, the part of Punjab tenancy act from the Raj that gave tenant first right of refusal upon sale of the land was overturned by Zia’s Federal Sharia bench in 1980s
specialist 7y ago
We should get Biblical. No half measures. Periodically forgive all debts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical) I'm curious, but ignorant, of the Quran's notion of riba, the prohibition on interest payments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba More close to home, I'd like more discussion about our own debt-based economy. The emphasis on rent seeking. The "Gig Economy", where people pay for the opportunity to work, aka pay for play, franchising. All these weird MLM schemes. Update: I forgot to mention Freedom Markets™, my pejorative for the cult of laissez faire, might makes right, I've-got-mine-screw-you, and other misanthropic notions.
- 1996 7y ago
  You clearly have an ideological opposition to capitalism, and that taint your views. The Bible or the Quran can't protect you for the human natural desire and need to make money. You should google about islamic banks to know what happens when interest is banned. Hint: the difference is just cosmetic. So if christians implemented a jubilee, I have no doubt it would be baked into some credit score and automatically increase all cost for people who took advantage of it - that or something else essentially similar. The best thing that can happen to countries like Pakistan? Capitalism. Free market. People are not stupid. They look at the neighboring countries who have more economically liberal regimes, see what they get, and vote with their feet.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Compared to socialist India until 1991 they were capitalist and free market
  - specialist 7y ago
    Are you sure that Pakistan's system of bonded service is capitalism? Perhaps we have different definitions. I checked wiki, dictionary.com and there's no mention of slavery, usury.
    - 1996 7y ago
selimthegrim 7y ago
I’m assuming these are West Pakistan stats in 1960?

lotsofpulp 7y ago

>Surely there must be some sort of structural reform possible to “the way the world works” to prevent this absurd imbalance. Yes, it's called redistributing wealth from those that have it, to those that don't. That means people that have large homes, yards, SUVs, vacations requiring flights, give them up, and pour their resources into lifting up those that don't have it. And not just money, but time and effort to educate the uneducated and impoverished, and blood to fight the oppressors. It's not a realistic goal, hence it's "the way the world works". It does help one appreciate how lucky one is to be born in the right place at the right time.

fennecfoxen 7y ago
The primary problem with this suggestion is that it ignores the actual problem. The barriers to the common man's prosperity in Pakistan are erected by the political elites in Pakistan. A world where you can meaningfully talk about employing redistribution is a world where you have already removed those elites and empowered the population against them: a world in which we're having a rather different argument.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Removing those elites is what I meant when I wrote "blood to fight the oppressors", aka war.
  - fennecfoxen 7y ago
    If we are advocating revolution, the next thing is for Pakistan to actually meaningfully industrialize, and gain sufficient wealth — redistributing what already exists only goes a short way. In the ideal case this involves the world economy, and probably looks like outside investment building factories, and the factories paying Pakistani people mediocre money while the new government builds institutions suitable for a modern economy — courts that respect the rule of law, laws that provide a balance between the needs of capital suppliers and labor, laws that promote meaningful competition instead of entrenching well-connected political elites, and a modern education system. The likelier alternative is they eschew participation in the world economy, building things from scratch themselves, doing it badly, without a rule of law, with a bad education system, with heavy state involvement that provides power to well-connected political elites, and a populist attitude which ignores the needs of capital, promoting empty slogans about economic justice instead of committing to the hard work and sacrifice associated with actually achieving it. The net result will be depressed capital formation, with an economy tilted towards state-run sectors and large companies which are friendly with the new regime. Since capital is important for productivity, the economy will continue to stagnate, though presumably it will see some improvement (it'd be hard not to at this point).

dash2 7y ago

Maybe focus on the doable rather than on grand structural reforms. Pakistan could be pressured to improve legal protections for labourers. There could be land redistribution or a redistributive welfare state. All of these have happened in other developing countries, without world revolution or armed struggle.

baybal2 7y ago
Bonded labour has been outlawed multiple times on paper. There were some show trials of kiln owners. Believe me or not, a lot of bonded labourers are so down on the bottom that they don't even know that they can sue their usurers in the court.