7 ms·

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even childr

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It's a dream for everybody. Also crime rates drop as drug dealers can't drive through anymore.

metalliqaz 7y ago
i think crime rate has little to do with "drug dealers driving through". drug dealers live in the cities too, and most of the ones that interact with users don't have cars. i think falling crime rates are more likely due to improve economic vibrancy
microtherion 7y ago
I would picture a Berlin drug dealer as being perfectly comfortable riding a bicycle.
- tomcooks 7y ago
  Most street drug dealers use bicycles, EU and abroad. More freedom of movement, no license nor plate.
  - HorstG 7y ago
    Drug dealers in Berlin populate the parks and subway stations mostly. Easier to hide in the crowds or shrubbery, if they hide at all. Police usually never bother them.
    - onreact 7y ago
      Yeah, but you only mean low level ones who barely earn enough to eat. I don't mean those. I mean the bigger fish.
      - lowdose 7y ago
        Wouldn't advice people to consume merchandise from someone that hangs around in parks.
    - TurkishPoptart 7y ago
      Sounds like Seattle.
- noobermin 7y ago
  You can carry much less on a bike.
  - taborj 7y ago
    Flip side: if you get caught, it's a lesser crime because you don't have as much on you.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    Which hardly matters if your product has an excellent price/weight ratio. My understanding (not being involved in the field in any role) is that even car-based street dealers carry far less product than one could comfortably pack on a bike. And a cargo bike could probably move a quite respectable quantity even by wholesale dealer standards.
- onreact 7y ago
  Yeah, that's true, but that's just the poor Africans who are at the bottom of the picking order. The BMW driving Orientals who provide them with drugs don't use bikes. Just recently a BMW 7 ran over a mother with her baby - both killed - at 6 in the morning. I don't think it was a manager rushing to his office. Ever since more traffic barriers have been erected.
ourlordcaffeine 7y ago
Interesting. Whenever there is talk about pedestrianizing a street in my town, the usual suspects immediately claim that this will make local businesses go bankrupt since "people can't drive up to them". Never mind that stopping isn't allowed anyway on those streets. I don't understand the logic.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Toronto? We literally had an outspoken opponent of a traffic reduction program (not even totally car-free) build an ice statue that flipped the bird to passers-by in protest. In the end I think he cost himself business because of his attitude. You're not alone in not understanding. The program (called the King St Pilot Project here in TO) has made taking that street as a transit user and pedestrian far more palatable.
  - spookybones 7y ago
    Amazing. Sounds like a Parks and Recreation episode.
  - wmil 7y ago
    Here's what the problem was. The King St Project dramatically improved transit. Tens of thousands of people were getting home earlier. This was good for riders. However there were a few nice but not noteworthy restaurants that got a lot of evening customers who were people waiting for King St to get moving and decided to give up and have dinner or a few drinks. Think of it along the lines of airport restaurants suffering due to reduced flight delays and reliably fast security clearance.
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      That runs counter to the data I’d previously seen. Business owners claimed spending went down when it was reported as going up. https://globalnews.ca/news/4390635/king-street-pilot-project-ridership-reliability-data-may-june-2018/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4390635/king-street-pilot-project... Or see the city’s YoY report, page 16: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/8fb5-TS_King-Street-Annual-Dashboard_Final.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/8fb5-TS_Ki... The restaurants that suffered were belonged to the fellow I mentioned and those that aligned themselves with him. He was already a bit of a notorious blowhard. What you’re describing is what they claimed would happen, but didn’t because more people were encouraged to spend time there. Even anecdotally I certainly spend more time there after films than I otherwise did because it’s so much better to move through rather than a total blockade of cars every single day rendering it basically a non-consideration—at least on our part.
HorstG 7y ago
This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...
- shkkmo 7y ago
  Do you have examples of such smaller cities that tried this and failed?
  - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
    I was wondering this myself. I’ve never heard of this before.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Well yeah, if you get rid of one form of transport there has to be something sufficient to replace it. They could be subways, busses, bikes (think Denmark), etc.
  - HorstG 7y ago
    It isn't that nobody thought of busses or trams. Its just that they are always too sparse, slow, limited in times, capacity, safety and comfort. I believe the break-even is of being able to replace cars is somewhere around a 5min schedule over the day and stations in at most 200m walking distance from everywhere. Oh, and of course being comparable in speed to at least a bike. That leaves only subways...
    - gumby 7y ago
      Melbourne trams are more convenient than driving and are free in the city centre. It can work just fine.
- 7y ago
nunja 7y ago
Agreed. Particularly in a city like Berlin where cars are worshiped and being pedestrian makes you a second-class citizen (Cars > Bikes > Pedestrian). Car free zones + speed limits will hopefully make the life better overthere for non-BMW owners.

metalliqaz 7y ago

i think crime rate has little to do with "drug dealers driving through". drug dealers live in the cities too, and most of the ones that interact with users don't have cars. i think falling crime rates are more likely due to improve economic vibrancy

microtherion 7y ago

I would picture a Berlin drug dealer as being perfectly comfortable riding a bicycle.

tomcooks 7y ago
Most street drug dealers use bicycles, EU and abroad. More freedom of movement, no license nor plate.
- HorstG 7y ago
  Drug dealers in Berlin populate the parks and subway stations mostly. Easier to hide in the crowds or shrubbery, if they hide at all. Police usually never bother them.
  - onreact 7y ago
    Yeah, but you only mean low level ones who barely earn enough to eat. I don't mean those. I mean the bigger fish.
    - lowdose 7y ago
      Wouldn't advice people to consume merchandise from someone that hangs around in parks.
  - TurkishPoptart 7y ago
    Sounds like Seattle.
noobermin 7y ago
You can carry much less on a bike.
- taborj 7y ago
  Flip side: if you get caught, it's a lesser crime because you don't have as much on you.
- microtherion 7y ago
  Which hardly matters if your product has an excellent price/weight ratio. My understanding (not being involved in the field in any role) is that even car-based street dealers carry far less product than one could comfortably pack on a bike. And a cargo bike could probably move a quite respectable quantity even by wholesale dealer standards.
onreact 7y ago
Yeah, that's true, but that's just the poor Africans who are at the bottom of the picking order. The BMW driving Orientals who provide them with drugs don't use bikes. Just recently a BMW 7 ran over a mother with her baby - both killed - at 6 in the morning. I don't think it was a manager rushing to his office. Ever since more traffic barriers have been erected.

ourlordcaffeine 7y ago

Interesting. Whenever there is talk about pedestrianizing a street in my town, the usual suspects immediately claim that this will make local businesses go bankrupt since "people can't drive up to them". Never mind that stopping isn't allowed anyway on those streets. I don't understand the logic.

52-6F-62 7y ago
Toronto? We literally had an outspoken opponent of a traffic reduction program (not even totally car-free) build an ice statue that flipped the bird to passers-by in protest. In the end I think he cost himself business because of his attitude. You're not alone in not understanding. The program (called the King St Pilot Project here in TO) has made taking that street as a transit user and pedestrian far more palatable.
- spookybones 7y ago
  Amazing. Sounds like a Parks and Recreation episode.
- wmil 7y ago
  Here's what the problem was. The King St Project dramatically improved transit. Tens of thousands of people were getting home earlier. This was good for riders. However there were a few nice but not noteworthy restaurants that got a lot of evening customers who were people waiting for King St to get moving and decided to give up and have dinner or a few drinks. Think of it along the lines of airport restaurants suffering due to reduced flight delays and reliably fast security clearance.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    That runs counter to the data I’d previously seen. Business owners claimed spending went down when it was reported as going up. https://globalnews.ca/news/4390635/king-street-pilot-project-ridership-reliability-data-may-june-2018/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4390635/king-street-pilot-project... Or see the city’s YoY report, page 16: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/8fb5-TS_King-Street-Annual-Dashboard_Final.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/8fb5-TS_Ki... The restaurants that suffered were belonged to the fellow I mentioned and those that aligned themselves with him. He was already a bit of a notorious blowhard. What you’re describing is what they claimed would happen, but didn’t because more people were encouraged to spend time there. Even anecdotally I certainly spend more time there after films than I otherwise did because it’s so much better to move through rather than a total blockade of cars every single day rendering it basically a non-consideration—at least on our part.

HorstG 7y ago

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

shkkmo 7y ago
Do you have examples of such smaller cities that tried this and failed?
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  I was wondering this myself. I’ve never heard of this before.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Well yeah, if you get rid of one form of transport there has to be something sufficient to replace it. They could be subways, busses, bikes (think Denmark), etc.
- HorstG 7y ago
  It isn't that nobody thought of busses or trams. Its just that they are always too sparse, slow, limited in times, capacity, safety and comfort. I believe the break-even is of being able to replace cars is somewhere around a 5min schedule over the day and stations in at most 200m walking distance from everywhere. Oh, and of course being comparable in speed to at least a bike. That leaves only subways...
  - gumby 7y ago
    Melbourne trams are more convenient than driving and are free in the city centre. It can work just fine.
7y ago

nunja 7y ago

Agreed. Particularly in a city like Berlin where cars are worshiped and being pedestrian makes you a second-class citizen (Cars > Bikes > Pedestrian). Car free zones + speed limits will hopefully make the life better overthere for non-BMW owners.