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‘No One Saw a Thing’: When a Midwest Town Banded Together to Kill the Town Bully
- neaden 7y agoTo be clear, community murders like this happened all the time in US history. The thing that makes this special is that the man killed was white and actually guilty of crimes.
- Frondo 7y agoThe parent poster is referring to race-motivated lynchings, of which there have been thousands over the decades.[1] [1] https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/ https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- braythwayt 7y ago100% true. This is the history of lynching in America. Community murders where nobody saw a thing, and the justification was always that the murdered person was a degenerate who would not receive what the town thinks would be adequate punishment under the law.
- vinceguidry 7y agoGreat reading on the culture that gave rise to lynching: https://www.quora.com/Did-slave-masters-actually-lynch-slaves-themselves-or-did-they-have-authorities-do-it/answer/Erik-Painter https://www.quora.com/Did-slave-masters-actually-lynch-slave...
- bluishgreen 7y agoThat was a brutal read.
- chrisco255 7y agoGrotesque but the fact is that these public square hangings were done since medieval times and probably earlier. From the Salem witch trials to the San Francisco vigilantes, it happened in many town squares, and it was believed to be justified: https://www.legendsofamerica.com/ah-lynching/2/ https://www.legendsofamerica.com/ah-lynching/2/
- vinceguidry 7y agoThese weren't all that long ago. Someone claimed that there are people walking around today that went to one of these events. I couldn't corroborate that claim but we're talking less than a hundred years ago. While the Middle ages were some 5-900 years ago. Also what makes these public killings so notable is the fact that it was a deliberate effort of an entire society to instill fear into a minority. That you don't see very often. There wasn't even an attempt at justice, they didn't even try to make it seem like these people weren't being killed just because of the color of their skin.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- chrisco255 7y agoNo, they were always accused of rape, murder or something substantial. Read the article I posted above. I suspect that in some cases, they were correct in their accusations. That being said, I don't believe in the death penalty for a lot of reasons, not least of which is this tendency of humans to seek "justice" with often little evidence at all.
- dragonwriter 7y ago> Also what makes these public killings so notable is the fact that it was a deliberate effort of an entire society to instill fear into a minority. That you don't see very often. I prefer the version of history suggested by the last sentence, but unfortunately cannot accept it was accurate. Looking around the world, I see it frequently and with broad geographic distribution. (Though it's not the whole society, just the dominant group, both in the immediate example and the general case across time and space.)
- viburnum 7y agoLynchings frequently happened because white people wanted to steal land from black or native people.
- cmurf 7y agoYep. Although you don't have to go back too far for the latest lynching and subsequent revisionism. https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-shocking-legacy-of-americas-worst-modern-day-lynching https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-shocking-legacy-of-amer...
- chrisco255 7y agoYou were half right until you dug into the helplessly racist narrative. The wild west had many incidences of such events and the victims were often white. One need only look at the story of Billy the Kid and the regulators or Wyatt Earp's arc for evidence. The only thing that makes this unusual is it was in 1981. EDIT: person I'm responding to makes the case that this case is SPECIAL in U.S. history and draws a direct line to racially motivated lynchings even though there's plenty of evidence that white-on-white lynchings occurred. I am not saying racially motivated lynchings didn't occur. I'm saying that history is not black and white.
- widowlark 7y agohelplessly racist? Thousands of lynchings occurred like this across the country for a hundred years - you can bet they weren't lynching whites more often.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rolltiide 7y agoAccording to the NAACP A) many states had more white people lynched than blacks B) The concentration of the south eastern states did make black people the victims more often both statistically and numerically, by a large margin but C) White people being killed was not a statistical outlier. So there is no novelty. D) “White” didn't include Italians, known Jewish people, any many others at the time. Not until the late 20th century, and pretty much still only so largely inclusive within North America. E) Extrajudicial killing is a deep seated part of American history https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/ https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/ So the conclusion is that neither of you are wrong but both are unproductive unsubstantial comments. Not everyone’s family history is about a secret killing of a black person. Many’s only experience is mob justice against someone who was white. Its not rare enough for race to be the focus of everyone’s bewilderment here. This is a story about the Midwest and west where the targets were often not black. So turning it into a cohesion region with the entire north american continent is counterproductive when regions just have different history.
- mieseratte 7y ago> The thing that makes this special is that the man killed was white From https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/ https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/ > Out of the 4,743 people lynched only 1,297 white people were lynched. Would not appear that being white and lynched are not necessarily unique, though perhaps for the time period.
- pazimzadeh 7y agoMany of those whites were probably black-sympathizers who would have been called n*-lovers or "black on the inside."
- faissaloo 7y agoAlso 'coalburners' for the women who married/slept with black men
- n1ght 7y agoYou must know a thing or two about that, how bizarrely off topic.
- mieseratte 7y ago> Many of those whites were probably black-sympathizers I'm sure some were. Would be great if we had more information.
- neaden 7y agothe rest of my sentence was important too, I don't really appreciate you cutting it off to pretend I said something I didn't.
- liability 7y agoSurely you don't really believe that of the 1,297 white people lynched, all were innocent. His point remains then, there is no shortage of guilty white men getting lynched in American history. Lots of white murderers and rapists got lynched, sometimes after they were convicted in court, by mobs who were impatient or particularly enraged.
- bediger4000 7y agoThe thing that makes this different is that the US government has kept better track of its citizens since about 1955. Despite our fear of the Mark of The Beast, we track (effectively) everybody via Social Security Number. I don't think this was true until on into the 1970s. I'm sure that this kind of thing went on all the time in the US, in smaller towns and rural areas. People disappeared all the time. Probably most of them moved to the big city or California, but a bunch probably ended up in unmarked graves. A friend of mine had a grandmother who lived in Milwaukee. She was Jewish. She fell in love with the Polish butcher. They disappeared from Milwaukee. A couple of months later, they were in Denver, married, and she was now Catholic. The special thing about my friend's grandmother, is that he knows the story. The bitter thing about that story is that it can't happen today, because we all are tracked. There are good reasons, but that doesn't mean that giving up segmentation of risks is all that great.
- macintux 7y agoClearly the “and” was not strong enough, based on the negative comments. “is that the man was both guilty and white” might have done the trick.
- SolaceQuantum 7y agoThis is a review of the documentary covering a 'Town Bully' who had evaded authorities and continued to harm people repeatedly. In order to protect the community, a group of vigilantes murdered them, and the community refused to issue any statements to authorities regarding anyone's involvement. I think broadly, I wonder what the place of vigilanteism like this should serve. The sentiments to protect the community against a man who isn't being recieved adequate justice- this in my opinion seems to echo the justification of other movements I'm aware of. There's often community discouse online on what to do with known bad actors when moderatorship isn't adequate for example.
- leetcrew 7y agoit seems like a more extreme version of jury nullification. if it became widespread, it would essentially be the end of rule-of-law. but in isolated and rare situations, perhaps it's a beneficial escape valve? easy to suggest from my comfy office in a quiet suburb of course.
- vkou 7y agoIt's not a 'beneficial escape valve' when the community decides to, say, kill the n_______ who had the audacity to sleep with a white woman. Which is a far more common application of lynching. We should not be glorifying this.
- cyberbanjo 7y agoI dunno why you're being down voted but this is true. America is a lot more racist than the Bay.
- BrandonM 7y agoAre you implying that SF is a lot less racist than America is on average, or that there are places in America that are a lot more racist than SF?
- harimau777 7y ago
- DonHopkins 7y agoWe Americans need to have the guts to do this as a nation.
- liability 7y agoPresumably you think you have the guts, so I wonder, who would you murder first?
- fallingfrog 7y agoOver the long timespans of human evolution I’m willing to bet that this is a significant selective pressure.. bullies probably just disappeared or were kicked out of the community to fend for themselves
- nostrademons 7y agoHe had 14 children, though - that doesn't seem like a failure to pass along his genes.
- pixl97 7y agoWell, its probably easy to have kids with a large number of women if you actively include 'poor choices' relative to your social standing. Seemingly most people want to move up or at least stay equal in social ladders when it comes to the choice of a mate.
- puranjay 7y agoHuman beings are weird in that "failure to integrate into society" and "failure to pass on your genes" don't necessarily overlap. In fact, failure to integrate into a social order often increases your chances of passing on your genes.
- epx 7y agoThis kind of guy has no no problem passing genes on. There are many more single mothers than single fathers for this reason.
- stallmanite 7y agoBarring rape it makes one wonder wtf is up with mate choice
- epx 7y agoIt is managed by the reptilian brain, not the neocortex. Unfortunately is the neocortex that pays bills :D
- yellowapple 7y ago> Britt Small, in fact, says that the only mistake made during the entire ordeal was not killing Trena too Wait, what did Trena do to also be a potential target here? Just guilt by association? Or was she actually actively participating in the criminal acts (and not being coerced to do so, as I imagine one might be before/while/after marrying a violent criminal at age 12)? The article couldn't, you know, delve into this a bit more?
- moate 7y agoThis article is a very brief commentary on the documentary. Presumably the show would explain that point of view and dig deeper into the whole matter.
- Verdex 7y agoI remember watching some news program about the event (maybe the 60 minutes piece mentioned in the article). I believe they interviewed Trena and she expressed anger that her husband was murdered and nobody would testify or try to bring the murderer(s) to justice. My guess is that Small doesn't like that she caused waves after the murder. As opposed to just going along with it.
- pstuart 7y agoI'm guessing she wanted to name names.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoSomeone posted the wikipedia article. Apparently she tried to get one of the shooters prosecuted, started a lawsuit, and was ultimately able to wrangle a settlement.
- Anthony-G 7y agoTo add to the other responses: according to http://mentalfloss.com/article/574749/ken-mcelroy-murder-skidmore-missouri http://mentalfloss.com/article/574749/ken-mcelroy-murder-ski... > She became his accomplice, accompanying McElroy on several of his nocturnal visits to people he had targeted for harassment. As McElroy ranted, she would stand nearby, a firearm in her hands.
- dwheeler 7y ago> frontier justice came for McElroy courtesy of the residents of Skidmore (population 440 at the time of the crime). Shaken by the man’s ability to evade jail even after being convicted of a near-fatal attack on a grocery store owner... Belkin also details Skidmore’s plague of subsequent violence ... the series persuasively contends that these crimes indicate that the McElroy episode taught younger Skidmore generations that doing as they savagely pleased was OK—and that they could get away with it, because their friends and neighbors wouldn’t speak out against them. I'm not persuaded, at least by this text. Another possible interpretation is that the legal system around Skidmore was completely unable to convict a repeat violent offender (McElroy), leading to a widespread (correct) belief that the legal system would not also provide any kind of useful restraint to future offenders. Indeed, that interpretation seems more likely to me. That doesn't make the actions acceptable, of course. But it does put a spotlight on the importance of having a working legal system that provides some reasonable level of protection to the larger community.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ProAm 7y ago> That doesn't make the actions acceptable, of course. But it does put a spotlight on the importance of having a working legal system that provides some reasonable level of protection to the larger community. This man was tried and convicted by a jury of his peers, it was just in a different courtroom.
- jgwil2 7y agoThat's the kind of logic used to justify lynchings. We have a legal system that enforces a certain burden of proof, that takes place in a courtroom where strict procedure is enforced by an ostensibly impartial judge, and evidence is weighed by an impartial jury. The system is carefully set up to balance the rights of the accused against the interests of the community. It may not work all the time, but it exists for a very good reason, and mob justice is no substitute.
- IronWolve 7y agoThis is still going on in Alaska, many remote areas have some bullies getting away due to no police. I'm sure some end up missing too, but there is a big lack of funding for state marshals to deal with the problems.
- jascii 7y agoI am not saying you are wrong, however this comment would be a lot more useful/interesting if you mentioned some sources.
- majos 7y agoNot parent, but this well-researched and gripping anecdote [1] may offer a helpful picture of American places where the law is not so dependable. [1] https://magazine.atavist.com/outlaw-country-klamath-county-oregon-guns-murder https://magazine.atavist.com/outlaw-country-klamath-county-o...
- ceejayoz 7y agoIt's worse than that in some spots. In some areas, the bullies are the police. https://www.propublica.org/article/stebbins-alaska-cops-criminal-records-domestic-violence https://www.propublica.org/article/stebbins-alaska-cops-crim... > In Stebbins alone, all seven of the police officers working as of July 1 have pleaded guilty to domestic violence charges within the past decade. Only one has received formal law enforcement training of any kind.
- IronWolve 7y agoAlaska has some of the highest crime/rape rates, gang activity. https://www.apnews.com/03b5999242a9414e856cdce36e9360aa https://www.apnews.com/03b5999242a9414e856cdce36e9360aa https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/rape-culture-in-the-alaskan-wilderness/379976/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/rape-cult... https://www.ktva.com/story/37361490/alaska-deemed-most-dangerous-state-in-us-in-new-report https://www.ktva.com/story/37361490/alaska-deemed-most-dange...
- prestonbriggs 7y agoPeter Matthiessen's book "Killing Mr. Watson" centers on a similar story in south Florida.
- futureastronaut 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy#1981_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy#1981_killing for a more to-the-point account.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoThanks, was going to write that this article was rather disappointing. It is more concerned with metadata about the miniseries and economic consequences rather than the story at the center.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoWould have liked to have heard more detail about why the local justice system was unable or unwilling to restrain McElroy. The whole situation raises some interesting parallels to wealthy & powerful malefactors routinely skating past legal consequences in our federal courts system.
- douglasfshearer 7y agoCriminal, the podcast, did an episode about the killing of Ken McElroy. [0] An episode that stuck in my head. https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-66-bully-5-5-2017/ https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-66-bully-5-5-2017/
- kenforthewin 7y agoI highly recommend the book In Broad Daylight, which the TV movie was based on. Surprised they didn't mention this in the article.
- betenoire 7y agoIt's there: > ...an incident that became so notorious they even made a TV movie about it (1991’s In Broad Daylight, starring Brian Dennehy, Cloris Leachman, Marcia Gay Harden and Chris Cooper)
- beeschlenker 7y agoNow if we can just get the country to do the same; Obama rapes & kills 2 boys. DeBlasio 5, Buttgieg 5, Cuomo 4, Murray 3, Dorsey 3, Thiel 3. Trump $4 billion to cover. Pelosi $3 billion, Harris $1 billion, Schumer $2 billion, to help bring the boys over the border. See pages 18-23, 8, 11, 12, 35, 45, 61, 62 Having trouble getting traction. Getting censored/banned. Billions in bribes paid to Trump, Pelosi, Schumer, Harris to enable a Soros funded child raping ring to operate in the USA. Please listen to the links below. Turn up the volume and put headphones on. You will hear these people, and many other high profile people, incriminate themselves in unbelievable fashion. Full 71 page document filled with red handed evidence like this at the bottom. Go to pages 18-23 of this document and you will hear Dorsey and Thiel raping children. You will hear their screams. They both rape and kill three. Also at the "rape party" of note: Bill DeBlasio, Andrew Cuomo, Bill Murray, Peter Buttgieg, George Soros, Barack Obama. Please copy and paste this post and repost it. I keep getting censored by these people. Peter Thiel and Jack Dorsey raping and killing three boys each. Turn the volume all the way up and put head phones on. https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_100-200.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mzZrjobxhNIEf38M3xk-IeA5SeF4aUtB/view?usp=sharing Obama admits to raping and killing boys he{re, with commentary from Peter Thiel, George Soros, Matt Porter: https://s3.wasabisys.com/out2/Out2/15JanCh3_0545.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LCDoc1kT7cfSeKQ1vniP_sx32_bRsHau/view?usp=sharing Trump demands $4 billion to "take a blind eye" at 1015+ (link missing from report, unsure how). Here's pieces of dialogue: 1015 The President requests four billion and henry Porter agrees to it. Some dialogue below. 1017 Donald Trump: Why don't you think about it. 1017 Henry Porter: I don't need to think about it. I'm ready for you to find out what we're really about. 1017 Gigi Hadid: I don't think it's a good idea Henry. 1017 Henry Porter: ...no shit. Jelena just stop talking about it. 1018 Gigi Hadid: About what? 1018 Henry Porter: The child raping. 1018 Donald Trump: What the fuck are you talking about? 1018 Gigi Hadid: Mr. President we are child rapists. 1018 Donald Trump: You cannot be serious. 1018 Donald Trump: You're gonna need $4 billion for me to take a blind eye. 1019 ?: People are laughing because they think four billion is too much. I think it's not a problem when you have $35 billion. 1022 Donald Trump: You better have that $4 billion or you can kiss this shit goodbye. https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv2/3Jan/3JanCh3_900-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing Trump wants $138 million to ensure smooth outcome for false judgment for a court case: https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/10JanCh3/10JanCh3_951-1033.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iSeGHDToFRoRdIht50Wii0i30mlw9INp/view?usp=sharing Obama explains the Illuminati with Jack Dorsey: https://s3.wasabisys.com/conv1/Overnight_14-17Jan/15JanCh3_200-347.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ok1-9IvANULzKBOwADFgaiYCFi6yszfj/view?usp=sharing At 230 a conversation is occurring on the embedded Porter camera system with Jack Dorsey, Peter Thiel, Barack Obama, Bill M^urray, and the Porter's. Jack Dorsey provides a statement defining who their group is: "The Illum%inati is an underground organization of child rapists and homosexuals." Matthew Porter: "We have to thin the herd, so Barack is going to explain a few things." At 232 Barack Obama says the following: "You people have to realize we are child rapi'sts. The Illuminati are child rapists. As soon as you figure that out, you can decide what to do. Everybody is freaking out about what just happened [child raping event still going on]. This is who ^we are." Full 71 page document: https://s3.wasabisys.com/aviewmefirst/FBI_FinalDraft_26Jul2019_BSchlenker.pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dXNjPQdQ8c-hFFLt9LT0GiSY5Vud0TzL/view?usp=sharing Please post this anywhere you can! Each google drive link is a backup to the wasabi link just in case one is "down". A word about the "faggot" usage: it was a necessary tool. It showed three things: they were not in control, if they were the usage would have be stopped. Everyone out there needed to see t%his. Two, it made it unpleasant for them to be in the headspace, which has obvious advantages. Three, it pointed out impersonators of BS because they would not call each other faggot, thus helping to mitigate the spread of false information. Apologies for those unintentionally offended. Of special interest to the LGBT community, I give you Barack Obama in a foursome with Peter Thiel, Jack Dorsey, and Matthew Porter. It is on page 12 of the document where you can download the video containing audio footage of the "event". Link is just above under "Full 71 page document".
- praptak 7y agoA similar incident from 2005: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_at_W%C5%82odowo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_at_W%C5%82odowo
- logfromblammo 7y agoMidwesterner here: Skidmore, MO, is not in The Midwest. It is on The Prairie. Which is the easternmost part of The West. The Midwest starts west of the the line between Fort Duquesne in Pittsburgh to the southwest corner of New York. It is north of the Ohio River, and east of the Mississippi River. St. Paul is Midwest. Minneapolis is Prairie. St. Louis is "the Gateway to the West", not "the Gateway to More of the Midwest".
- tlb 7y agoThe term is famously ill-defined. FWIW, the US Census bureau includes the entire state of Missouri. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States#Defin...
- theandrewbailey 7y ago> It is north of the Ohio River, and east of the Mississippi River. St. Paul is Midwest. Minneapolis is Prairie. Then what's this "Upper Midwest" place I keep hearing about?[0] It definitely extends the Midwest past the Mississippi. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest
- bediger4000 7y agoMidwesterner here: grew up in or near Kirksville, MO, about 165 miles east of Skidmore. I hereby swear or affirm that Skidmore is in the Midwest, geographically and culturally, although northern Missouri/southern Iowa have their own version of "midwest". That part of the world is definitely not plains geographically or biologically: it's oak/hickory forest growing on dissected glacial till. You don't get to "plains" geographically until you're well into Kansas at that latitude, and even then, Kansas and Nebraska are culturally midwestern, despite their pretensions to cowboy.
- logfromblammo 7y agoYou might say "pop" instead of "soda", but you will never escape your Louisiana history. No true Midwesterner grows their corn and soybeans anywhere west of the river. It's not our fault that true Midwestern culture is so rich and interesting that the folk of the Great Plains were compelled to emulate it. But to be fair, you are the second-best completely-distinct-and-separate cultural region in the US, so don't feel too bad about it. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman "The Midwest" is poorly-defined. Most polls conclude that Midwesterners believe that the Midwest is at least their state and neighboring states, and non-Midwesterners have basically no idea where it starts or ends. The census region more or less covers the Northwest Territories plus that part of the Louisiana Purchase that became Missouri Territory. Largely settled by Germans and Scandinavians, and mostly free states (except Missouri itself). I refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States#Cultural_overlap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States#Cultu... for further info on how the definition of "Midwest" differs depending on what part of the Midwest you're from.
- commandlinefan 7y agoThere was a case not too long ago in India where a serial rapist kept evading conviction, so the women in the town gathered together, stabbed him to death, and then all confessed to the crime together. None of them ended up being convicted.
- scarejunba 7y agoIf the man were innocent and the town’s people ganged up on him, Salem style, would the evidence look different?
- raspie 7y ago> For more than two decades, McElroy was suspected of being involved in theft of grain, gasoline, alcohol, antiques, and livestock, but he avoided conviction when charges were brought against him 21 times—often after witnesses refused to testify because he allegedly intimidated them, frequently by following his targets or parking outside their homes and watching them. > McElroy began stalking the Bowenkamp family, and eventually threatened Bo Bowenkamp in the back of his store with a shotgun in hand. In the ensuing confrontation, McElroy shot Bowenkamp in the neck; Bowenkamp survived, and McElroy was arrested and charged with attempted murder. McElroy was convicted at trial of assault, but freed on bail pending his appeal. Immediately after being released at a post-trial hearing, McElroy went to the D&G Tavern, a local bar, with an M1 Garand rifle with a bayonet attached, and made graphic threats about what he would do to Mr. Bowenkamp. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy Does an innocent person look like this? You tell me.
- scarejunba 7y agoOh, I don’t think he’s innocent, but all information about this is post facto. All those sources exist after he was killed. I’m less conspiracy theory about this, and more just remarking (pointlessly, I suppose) how information deteriorates over time. Some may even be true, but used as a tool to build the rest around.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoHis criminal record should clear up doubt.
- kazinator 7y agoBut the town police colluded with the vigilantes! How can it be certain that the record isn't a post hoc fabrication. Or if not entirely, then at least embellished.
- kemiller2002 7y agoSo my family actually knew the sheriff from the next county over. He picked up McElroy a couple times for various things. (I think being drunk etc.). Now when this was explained, this was 26-27 years ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy, but he explained that the man was a monster of an individual. (like huge.) The guy could pick up a hog from the other side of the fence and just walk off with it. Dead lifting a few hundred pounds, that's hard, and really scary to think someone can do that who doesn't like you. You don't cross an individual like that lightly. You have to remember this was 35+ years ago when this all happened. Things aren't what they used to be now. People didn't make long distance calls back then, because it was too expensive. You lived out it in the middle of nowhere especially back then, you're on your own. No one is coming to help you if you're in serious trouble. My parents had this joke. They said the fire department had a perfect record around where we were. They hadn't saved a house yet. Don't get me wrong, they really respected the firemen. The point was that when you live 20+ miles away from the fire station, there is no possible way they are going to save the house in time. There was no GPS, and 911 had only been invented a little over a decade before. A lot of people didn't even own phones. It's easy to talk about the rule of law, and how they should let the justice system work it out, but it's a different kind of law in those parts. In a town that size, everyone knows everyone, and you're always talking to someone's brother, cousin, sister, etc. Oh you filed a report against someone?...yeah word gets around. The kind you don't want. Evidence gets "lost", etc. A lot of times it was (and still is in certain places) easier to just keep your mouth shut and move on. I'm not saying I agree with what they did, and I wasn't in their position, so I don't know what I'd do. I can sure see why they thought that was the only recourse they had though.
- ryanmarsh 7y agoMy grandmother in-law relayed a similar story growing up on a farm in Kansas. When she was a little girl there was a gypsy camp up the river. The gypsies would occasionally steal chickens. Her father eventually put a stop to it when they brazenly tried to use a car (I don’t know where they got it) to steal several chickens. Her father got his hands on one of the women and beat her senseless and one of the men engaged him and he pounded the man till he went limp. They were carted off by the other gypsies. Possibly dead. I asked “Wasn’t there a sheriff? Didn’t he get in trouble?” She said “no, there was no law”. I said “you mean like no law enforcement?” She said “no, there was no LAW”. Implying it was completely lawless way out there on the farm. Crazy to think about. This was in the 1930’s.
- sfthrower89 7y agoAmericans really, really, really love their guns.
- cossatot 7y agoA similar episode was the basis for the historical novel "Killing Mister Watson" by Peter Mattheissen, which is one of my favorite books. A ruthless man named Edgar Watson, who had purportedly killed several people in Oklahoma and Florida, settled in the coastal Everglades of Florida (Chokoloksee area) around the turn of the last century and started a sugar cane plantation. He was known for the 'Watson payday' where, at the end of the harvest season, he would gather all of the drifters and ne'er-do-wells he had hired as fieldhands and gun them down. Additional bad behavior toward his neighbors lead to all of the town's men standing in line and gunning him down as he landed his boat on Chokoloskee Island one day.
- gameswithgo 7y agoThat many people feel what the townspeople did here was wrong is fascinating to me. It seems many people believe in certain ideals, as dogma, to the extent that they expect other people to suffer or even die upholding those ideals. The rule of law is important, yes. But why does anyone expect a town to let themselves be maimed and murdered to maintain the rule of law? This is an insane expectation. The people defended themselves. Nobody can criticize them for that. Yes of course it would better if law enforcement was fixed, but people often have no ability to fix that in any reasonable time frame. Meanwhile people are getting murdered.
- Akinato 7y agoYou can only act reasonable so long as your enemy is willing to extend the same courtesy. When someone is this far gone, there's nothing you can really do other than violence, if the legal system has failed you. It sounds like they tried all reasonable options and were left with just one.
- rocqua 7y agoPerhaps sometimes, people need to do things that, whilst we would do the same in their position, we still want to condemn as wrong. Not because we disagree with their action, but because we need to signal to the outside world that actions like it are wrong. The circumstances that made such an action acceptable to our minds privately are too nuanced, too easy to stretch to publicly say they made it okay. As a consolation, in these kinds of cases, taking action and dealing with condemnation is still better than not taking action. Of course, it is not right that people have to choose between two wrongs (living with the situation, or taking action and being condemned for it). But life isn't fair. That isn't a statement of 'pushing the world into a fair state is infeasible to the point of imposiblity'. Instead, it is a statement that 'there is no state of the world that could be described as fair. Moreover, the effect of such 'unfair condemnation' is tempered by people like you. I suppose that an actual working society needs both voices. Certainly, the signaling effect does not require that the condemnation be universal, just that it is substantial.
- chrisdhoover 7y ago
- myrandomcomment 7y agoOne could see this as a man being tried by a jury of his peers.
- dmix 7y agohttps://www.amc.com/shows/no-one-saw-a-thing/full-episodes/season-01/episode-01/the-killing-of-ken-rex-mcelroy https://www.amc.com/shows/no-one-saw-a-thing/full-episodes/s...
- sunstone 7y agoThis kind of thing has been happening since humans roamed the plains of Africa. A smallish group of humans can only take so much anti-social behaviour before a permanent solution is required. Now, with larger groupings of towns and cities, society can afford to be somewhat more merciful.
- mirimir 7y agoTFA doesn't explore at all how McElroy managed to "evade jail" after so many crimes. But it seems that basically there were enough people who would provide false alibis.[0] Maybe because he had threatened them. 0) http://mentalfloss.com/article/574749/ken-mcelroy-murder-skidmore-missouri http://mentalfloss.com/article/574749/ken-mcelroy-murder-ski...
- ascorbic 7y agoThat's a much better article
- nutcracker46 7y agoWhy, WHY did it take so long to do something about McElroy? The very civilized townspeople endured an inordinate amount of crime and abuse from him before what? Getting a consensus that he had to go. Sounds like the UN... I grew up in an urban neighborhood with much less patience. We had a fair share of sheep and wolf types, and if the justice system failed to take a menace off the streets, the menace would eventually get capped. Depending on who the bully fucked with, jail could be a better alternative to street justice.
- HocusLocus 7y agoOBVIOUSLY this vigilante justice was not planned over the entire time span of McElroy's rein of terror, or it would have happened long before. So there is no intrinsic aspect of flash-mob vigilantism we should be concerned about. OBVIOUSLY no one here is in a position to exonerate any of the specific crimes McElroy committed. Sounds like a nice place to live, but if you were to be drawn there because of this they probably wouldn't want you living there. That is the attitude of people who feel resentful that 'doing what needs to be done' has drawn more national attention than the collected crimes of McElroy ever did.