24 ms·

vinyl plotters are so fast an cheap they ended hand lettering as a trade, I wonder how hes spending hours on these without management pressure for faster and ch

by kmnt 7y ago

vinyl plotters are so fast an cheap they ended hand lettering as a trade, I wonder how hes spending hours on these without management pressure for faster and cheaper temporary signs?

drcode 7y ago
I think 90% of the work is the design effort for each sign, a vinyl plotter won't make that faster. Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >I think 90% of the work is the design effort for each sign, a vinyl plotter won't make that faster. There wouldn't be any need for "design" if management was involved to expedite the process. Just put the ready made letters together with a couple of ready made vectors like arrows etc in a PC program, and send the file to the plotter. >Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room. You could order the sign from a print shop with a vinyl plotter and have it delivered in 1-2 hours.
  - mrob 7y ago
    But then you wouldn't get the free publicity from all the people interested in your unique hand-made signs.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Sure. I prefer the uniqueness, and quirkiness myself. It's something different than the usual industrial approach. But I'm just responding to people who saying it couldn't be done in another way (have they ever been involved with sign making? of course it could) or that it wont save time to have it done another way, or that it would cost more...
  - nzjrs 7y ago
    I feel like this comment must me a satire of HN?
    - kmnt 7y ago
      whats seems satirical about this? most construction companies just buy coroplast signs, I used to make them its why I was surprised hes spending hours on this as the article states.
      - mattl 7y ago
        It’s completely disrespectful to the artistry of the work. It’s the same thing as that original response to Dropbox. “For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.”
        coldtea 7y ago
        >It’s completely disrespectful to the artistry of the work. It's not about the artistry and never intended to be, it's about the end result (functionality wise) and whether you can get it for less effort. (In fact, I've less several other comments lauding the artistry aspect, e.g. notice my comment posted an hour before yours above: "Sure. I prefer the uniqueness, and quirkiness myself. It's something different than the usual industrial approach. But I'm just responding to people who saying it couldn't be done in another way (have they ever been involved with sign making? of course it could) or that it wont save time to have it done another way, or that it would cost more...")
        nzjrs 7y ago
        Literally no one thinks this can't be done another (automated) way. This is HN! This is a beautiful post about a true craftsman in another domain, as is appreciated here, and you really think no one has heard of laser cutters? We all know this. Insight is also about calibrating ones response to the audience.
  - needle0 7y ago
    To get each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated, I would imagine the administrative red tape involved (in a large, old Japanese enterprise) would take long enough to make the sign obsolete by the time it got the OK from everyone. Sato just keeps making signs on the spot where he notices a need for them, and rips them off when they're no longer necessary.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >To get each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated, I would imagine the administrative red tape involved You don't need to get "each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated". You could expedite his current process, with just a series of templates made on an el cheapo design program (even Word) and a vinyl cutter. Here's a guy making custom signs nobody asked for. Why would a replacement for that include "formal budgets and professional designers"? One could leverage the same informal process and budget, and instead of duct tape and lots hours, just use a run-of-the-mill printing service (the kind that does photocopies)... >Sato just keeps making signs on the spot where he notices a need for them, and rips them off when they're no longer necessary. Sure, and that's just "write message, add arrows/icons, sent to plotter, stick, unstick" -- the same as today, minus the time to painfully create by hand. Of course this way you also lose the artisty and quirkiness, but I'm only responding to whether this can be done. And my answer is: it can be done, cheaper, faster, easier, and doesn't take much. Not any big budget (not much better than the duct tape budget), not "professional designers", nothing. You could keep the same unoficialness, and just use a printer and a PC to get the signs (you could even skip the plotter, and just e.g. stick A3/A2 signs with tape). As for whether it should be done, I'd say no. His efforts, even if wasteful, make the world better and more quirky and charming, in a way that an automated replacement wouldn't.
- derefr 7y ago
  > Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room. They presumably already have these for their official signage, though. In most civic-infrastructure organizations, the bottleneck for producing signage is the design talent.
- adrianmonk 7y ago
  Print shops are a thing. I can order a large vinyl banner on the internet for under $50 here in the US. That has to be possible in Japan too.
coldtea 7y ago
>I wonder how hes spending hours on these without management pressure for faster and cheaper temporary signs Some working places offer freedom and human values... This is in Japan, of course, which is known for the inverse (highly managed corporations and overworking), but there are pockets of employee freedom and expression all over the world
- washadjeffmad 7y ago
  There's 'salaryman' life, then there's the rest of Japan. It's very much "not all Japanese". You don't work yourself to death for the sport of it, and you can get by, own a home, take vacations (locally), and afford what you need without needing to be busy all the time or devote your life to your corporate sponsor.
- kmnt 7y ago
  Probably varies by industry, in my experience man hours are treated as too precious for this. I worked in a sign shop and there were still old hand letterers in the industry but forced to use vinyl printers and plotters. Doing it by hand isn't even contemplated. Also construction companies don't usually value good graphic design. Hand lettering such nice temporary signs is so surprising.
- pier25 7y ago
  > overworking On average, Japanese work as much as Canadians or Spaniards and generally below the US. Mexico has been on one of the top spots for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_h...
  - pixelcort 7y ago
    Isn't this distorted by the amount of unreported overtime? Anecdotally many of my friends in Japan work overtime but don't report it, or report a smaller overtime amount.
    - mnky9800n 7y ago
brok3nmachine 7y ago
There is no management pressure. The article mentions that the artist took it upon himself to start making the signs. So I'm under the impression he does so within his free time.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  The mystery is whether he does this during downtime at work, or overtime after work. Due to the medium, he must be doing the laborious work onsite.
  - derefr 7y ago
    The mystery to me is how he's allowed to block off large sections of floor/wall for hours to make them. You'd think management would be cross about that, at least.
    - zorak 7y ago
      It's his job to direct traffic through the space, I'm sure they understand that he knows best when and how to do the work.
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    I suppose if the job is helping direct people, he will have his hands full during rush hour and have all day in between to contemplate the signage needed most.
zorak 7y ago
His management is thoughtful! Plotters are cheap, but the entire chain of events leading to an effective sign being installed is almost certainly higher than this one guy spending a few hours on a sign.
- VRay 7y ago
  It would literally take less than 10 minutes to make a crappy looking sign like that on a vinyl plotter, from laying it out on a laptop to cutting and sticking it.
nickhalfasleep 7y ago
Most of these are in spaces too rough or temporary for the cost of vinyl stickers.
_trampeltier 7y ago
So you would need somebodey who go onsite, but has no idea about the situation, this guy has to draw an example. But because this guy has no idea about the situation, he would need one or two worker from the site to help him. So he design it .. the other guys have to say ok, produce the sign, deliver the sign, somebody has to recieve it, entry check for bill, somebody has to hang it up .. and it better is the correct size .. and has no error. And just for a little change the hole thing again. I'm pretty sure if you have a worker who can do it onsite with tape (and keep it simple) .. there is no competition. Remind me on this. The Super Micro CEO made an Ad by himself. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19913587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19913587

by kmnt 7y ago

vinyl plotters are so fast an cheap they ended hand lettering as a trade, I wonder how hes spending hours on these without management pressure for faster and cheaper temporary signs?

drcode 7y ago

I think 90% of the work is the design effort for each sign, a vinyl plotter won't make that faster. Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room.

coldtea 7y ago
>I think 90% of the work is the design effort for each sign, a vinyl plotter won't make that faster. There wouldn't be any need for "design" if management was involved to expedite the process. Just put the ready made letters together with a couple of ready made vectors like arrows etc in a PC program, and send the file to the plotter. >Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room. You could order the sign from a print shop with a vinyl plotter and have it delivered in 1-2 hours.
- mrob 7y ago
  But then you wouldn't get the free publicity from all the people interested in your unique hand-made signs.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Sure. I prefer the uniqueness, and quirkiness myself. It's something different than the usual industrial approach. But I'm just responding to people who saying it couldn't be done in another way (have they ever been involved with sign making? of course it could) or that it wont save time to have it done another way, or that it would cost more...
- nzjrs 7y ago
  I feel like this comment must me a satire of HN?
  - kmnt 7y ago
    whats seems satirical about this? most construction companies just buy coroplast signs, I used to make them its why I was surprised hes spending hours on this as the article states.
    - mattl 7y ago
      It’s completely disrespectful to the artistry of the work. It’s the same thing as that original response to Dropbox. “For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.”
      - coldtea 7y ago
        >It’s completely disrespectful to the artistry of the work. It's not about the artistry and never intended to be, it's about the end result (functionality wise) and whether you can get it for less effort. (In fact, I've less several other comments lauding the artistry aspect, e.g. notice my comment posted an hour before yours above: "Sure. I prefer the uniqueness, and quirkiness myself. It's something different than the usual industrial approach. But I'm just responding to people who saying it couldn't be done in another way (have they ever been involved with sign making? of course it could) or that it wont save time to have it done another way, or that it would cost more...")
        nzjrs 7y ago
        Literally no one thinks this can't be done another (automated) way. This is HN! This is a beautiful post about a true craftsman in another domain, as is appreciated here, and you really think no one has heard of laser cutters? We all know this. Insight is also about calibrating ones response to the audience.
- needle0 7y ago
  To get each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated, I would imagine the administrative red tape involved (in a large, old Japanese enterprise) would take long enough to make the sign obsolete by the time it got the OK from everyone. Sato just keeps making signs on the spot where he notices a need for them, and rips them off when they're no longer necessary.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >To get each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated, I would imagine the administrative red tape involved You don't need to get "each of the signs officially signed off with formal budgets and professional designers allocated". You could expedite his current process, with just a series of templates made on an el cheapo design program (even Word) and a vinyl cutter. Here's a guy making custom signs nobody asked for. Why would a replacement for that include "formal budgets and professional designers"? One could leverage the same informal process and budget, and instead of duct tape and lots hours, just use a run-of-the-mill printing service (the kind that does photocopies)... >Sato just keeps making signs on the spot where he notices a need for them, and rips them off when they're no longer necessary. Sure, and that's just "write message, add arrows/icons, sent to plotter, stick, unstick" -- the same as today, minus the time to painfully create by hand. Of course this way you also lose the artisty and quirkiness, but I'm only responding to whether this can be done. And my answer is: it can be done, cheaper, faster, easier, and doesn't take much. Not any big budget (not much better than the duct tape budget), not "professional designers", nothing. You could keep the same unoficialness, and just use a printer and a PC to get the signs (you could even skip the plotter, and just e.g. stick A3/A2 signs with tape). As for whether it should be done, I'd say no. His efforts, even if wasteful, make the world better and more quirky and charming, in a way that an automated replacement wouldn't.
derefr 7y ago
> Also, a vinyl plotter and computer take up space and need a secure room. They presumably already have these for their official signage, though. In most civic-infrastructure organizations, the bottleneck for producing signage is the design talent.
adrianmonk 7y ago
Print shops are a thing. I can order a large vinyl banner on the internet for under $50 here in the US. That has to be possible in Japan too.

coldtea 7y ago

>I wonder how hes spending hours on these without management pressure for faster and cheaper temporary signs Some working places offer freedom and human values... This is in Japan, of course, which is known for the inverse (highly managed corporations and overworking), but there are pockets of employee freedom and expression all over the world

washadjeffmad 7y ago
There's 'salaryman' life, then there's the rest of Japan. It's very much "not all Japanese". You don't work yourself to death for the sport of it, and you can get by, own a home, take vacations (locally), and afford what you need without needing to be busy all the time or devote your life to your corporate sponsor.
kmnt 7y ago
Probably varies by industry, in my experience man hours are treated as too precious for this. I worked in a sign shop and there were still old hand letterers in the industry but forced to use vinyl printers and plotters. Doing it by hand isn't even contemplated. Also construction companies don't usually value good graphic design. Hand lettering such nice temporary signs is so surprising.
pier25 7y ago
> overworking On average, Japanese work as much as Canadians or Spaniards and generally below the US. Mexico has been on one of the top spots for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_hours_in_OECD_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_annual_labor_h...
- pixelcort 7y ago
  Isn't this distorted by the amount of unreported overtime? Anecdotally many of my friends in Japan work overtime but don't report it, or report a smaller overtime amount.
  - mnky9800n 7y ago

brok3nmachine 7y ago

There is no management pressure. The article mentions that the artist took it upon himself to start making the signs. So I'm under the impression he does so within his free time.

lonelappde 7y ago
The mystery is whether he does this during downtime at work, or overtime after work. Due to the medium, he must be doing the laborious work onsite.
- derefr 7y ago
  The mystery to me is how he's allowed to block off large sections of floor/wall for hours to make them. You'd think management would be cross about that, at least.
  - zorak 7y ago
    It's his job to direct traffic through the space, I'm sure they understand that he knows best when and how to do the work.
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  I suppose if the job is helping direct people, he will have his hands full during rush hour and have all day in between to contemplate the signage needed most.

zorak 7y ago

His management is thoughtful! Plotters are cheap, but the entire chain of events leading to an effective sign being installed is almost certainly higher than this one guy spending a few hours on a sign.

VRay 7y ago
It would literally take less than 10 minutes to make a crappy looking sign like that on a vinyl plotter, from laying it out on a laptop to cutting and sticking it.

nickhalfasleep 7y ago

Most of these are in spaces too rough or temporary for the cost of vinyl stickers.

_trampeltier 7y ago

So you would need somebodey who go onsite, but has no idea about the situation, this guy has to draw an example. But because this guy has no idea about the situation, he would need one or two worker from the site to help him. So he design it .. the other guys have to say ok, produce the sign, deliver the sign, somebody has to recieve it, entry check for bill, somebody has to hang it up .. and it better is the correct size .. and has no error. And just for a little change the hole thing again. I'm pretty sure if you have a worker who can do it onsite with tape (and keep it simple) .. there is no competition. Remind me on this. The Super Micro CEO made an Ad by himself. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19913587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19913587