7 ms·

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the da

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

apsdsm 7y ago
This is particularly true of, say, many mobile games. But conversely, if not hours of enjoyment, then by what metric do we gauge a good game? Perhaps there’s a line here between hours of enjoyment and hours of mindless engagement?
- chii 7y ago
  May be the measure should be how harmful it is to continue? For an MMO, you're engaged socially (presumably in a guild, rather than soloing). In a mobile grind game, you spend hours constantly checking on progress for that endorphine hit.
  - rizzin 7y ago
    Same as with any addictive thing, you can use and you can abuse. And the change isn't instant. You can play MMO socially in a guild, or you can simply grind max levels / rare items endlessly. You can play an IAP and ad-riddled mobile game to kill some time when waiting in queues, or you can have it become a part of your life checking the game everytime you have a minute of downtime. And the transitions between those states happen impreceptibly, and there is no defined line beyond which you may consider the activity harmful.
- pdpi 7y ago
  Hours of enjoyment benefits certain types of games versus others. Return of the Obra Dinn is a pretty short game, I put 13 hours into it by playing quite slowly (and there's a not inconsiderable amount of AFK time in there as well), I doubt I'll touch it again any time soon (because the structure gives it zero replayability value), and I would count it as one of the absolute best games I've ever played. Portal 1 is a 4 or 5 hour game and, again, one of the best ever. On the other end of the spectrum, games like Minecraft, Oxygen Not Included or Factorio are enormous, all-absorbing time sinks that will consume your every waking hour for months or years on end if you let them. How do I compare ONI and Obra Dinn and say that either is, in any objective sense, better than the other?
munk-a 7y ago
I understand that "hours of enjoyment" can get extreme with addictive personalities and I think it's super relevant to point out games that use tactics specifically to trap users and extract in-app purchases from them but... As a general rule I think "hours of enjoyment" is about as optimal as you can get for leisure payoff, the alternative "how much I learned" is nice too, whether that's literal stuff (like trivia), strategic growth or else can vary on a title-to-title basis. But I do understand where you're coming from.
gbacon 7y ago
It must be one heck of a fun title to take someone who would — if not for that dratted game! — be a productive pillar of the community and make her a bump on a log. The far simpler, albeit non-egalitarian, explanation is some people are more productive and others will find ways to waste time.
- meditate 7y ago
  I agree with you, but I still am highly disturbed by "whale hunting" aka certain entities manipulating those types of people into spending as much money as possible in exchange for being able to withdraw even further from productive society.
HNthrow22 7y ago
amplified by the new model of game design to drive loot box sales above all else, which means fun gameplay is no longer a priority compared to designing systems that encourage users to spend on microtransactions, especially addictive-personality types. quoting a comment from another thread "it used to be that you felt good because you were having fun. In this new era of micro transactions the games aren’t even fun anymore. There is only frustration, and then you pay to alleviate that frustration. You sometimes find yourself sitting there say, “why am I even doing this?”"
skellera 7y ago
When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull as much value as possible? Cause one is unlike the others.
- faitswulff 7y ago
  > Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games More time spent videogaming means less time spent leetcoding, raising VC, and crushing it as a 10x engineer! /s
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Generally, less time for all kind of other things in life. Game addiction is a thing (as is "tons of hours spent but not clinically addicted"). And unlike e.g. workaholism, it doesn't even result in a career to show for it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- meditate 7y ago
  I only speak from personal experiences with the business side of things. It's a combination of despotic upstream vendors, highly addictive products aimed towards children, lack of regulations, abusive working environments, and a general contentedness with profiting directly from the misfortunes of others. I do not believe any corners of the industry are safe from this attitude at the moment, despite the marketing veneer they may put on. And yes, if I sound cynical, it's because I am suffering from burnout at the moment.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I for one love video games. When done right, they are my favorite art form. I am "anti" any game that uses psychological tricks to get me to keep playing. And for stuff like Celeste, Gris, and Hellblade and Portal that keep me engaged by providing an inherently fulfilling experience.
jniedrauer 7y ago
> an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return. You just described mountaineering, rock climbing, skiing, running a marathon, skydiving, surfing, scuba diving, and just about every other amateur athletic pursuit.
- meditate 7y ago
  I won't deny that. With the exception of long-distance running, all of those are cost-prohibitive luxury activities, just like gaming.
- duopixel 7y ago
  There are clear returns there: immersion in nature, cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain, social bonding, etc.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > immersion in nature That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. I personally don't find this interesting. > social bonding This applies to plenty of videogames as well - both directly to multiplayer, and to singleplayer games as social objects for discussions with other people. > cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain In the same sense, videogames exercise your reaction time, complex reasoning skills and spatial awareness. Point being - side effects are side effects, but both videogames and those outdoor pursuits listed are just waste of time, economically speaking.
    - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
      > That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. Some reading on green exercise: http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_543531_en.html http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_543531_en.ht...

apsdsm 7y ago

This is particularly true of, say, many mobile games. But conversely, if not hours of enjoyment, then by what metric do we gauge a good game? Perhaps there’s a line here between hours of enjoyment and hours of mindless engagement?

chii 7y ago
May be the measure should be how harmful it is to continue? For an MMO, you're engaged socially (presumably in a guild, rather than soloing). In a mobile grind game, you spend hours constantly checking on progress for that endorphine hit.
- rizzin 7y ago
  Same as with any addictive thing, you can use and you can abuse. And the change isn't instant. You can play MMO socially in a guild, or you can simply grind max levels / rare items endlessly. You can play an IAP and ad-riddled mobile game to kill some time when waiting in queues, or you can have it become a part of your life checking the game everytime you have a minute of downtime. And the transitions between those states happen impreceptibly, and there is no defined line beyond which you may consider the activity harmful.
pdpi 7y ago
Hours of enjoyment benefits certain types of games versus others. Return of the Obra Dinn is a pretty short game, I put 13 hours into it by playing quite slowly (and there's a not inconsiderable amount of AFK time in there as well), I doubt I'll touch it again any time soon (because the structure gives it zero replayability value), and I would count it as one of the absolute best games I've ever played. Portal 1 is a 4 or 5 hour game and, again, one of the best ever. On the other end of the spectrum, games like Minecraft, Oxygen Not Included or Factorio are enormous, all-absorbing time sinks that will consume your every waking hour for months or years on end if you let them. How do I compare ONI and Obra Dinn and say that either is, in any objective sense, better than the other?

munk-a 7y ago

I understand that "hours of enjoyment" can get extreme with addictive personalities and I think it's super relevant to point out games that use tactics specifically to trap users and extract in-app purchases from them but... As a general rule I think "hours of enjoyment" is about as optimal as you can get for leisure payoff, the alternative "how much I learned" is nice too, whether that's literal stuff (like trivia), strategic growth or else can vary on a title-to-title basis. But I do understand where you're coming from.

gbacon 7y ago

It must be one heck of a fun title to take someone who would — if not for that dratted game! — be a productive pillar of the community and make her a bump on a log. The far simpler, albeit non-egalitarian, explanation is some people are more productive and others will find ways to waste time.

meditate 7y ago
I agree with you, but I still am highly disturbed by "whale hunting" aka certain entities manipulating those types of people into spending as much money as possible in exchange for being able to withdraw even further from productive society.

HNthrow22 7y ago

amplified by the new model of game design to drive loot box sales above all else, which means fun gameplay is no longer a priority compared to designing systems that encourage users to spend on microtransactions, especially addictive-personality types. quoting a comment from another thread "it used to be that you felt good because you were having fun. In this new era of micro transactions the games aren’t even fun anymore. There is only frustration, and then you pay to alleviate that frustration. You sometimes find yourself sitting there say, “why am I even doing this?”"

skellera 7y ago

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull as much value as possible? Cause one is unlike the others.

faitswulff 7y ago
> Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games More time spent videogaming means less time spent leetcoding, raising VC, and crushing it as a 10x engineer! /s
- coldtea 7y ago
  Generally, less time for all kind of other things in life. Game addiction is a thing (as is "tons of hours spent but not clinically addicted"). And unlike e.g. workaholism, it doesn't even result in a career to show for it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
meditate 7y ago
I only speak from personal experiences with the business side of things. It's a combination of despotic upstream vendors, highly addictive products aimed towards children, lack of regulations, abusive working environments, and a general contentedness with profiting directly from the misfortunes of others. I do not believe any corners of the industry are safe from this attitude at the moment, despite the marketing veneer they may put on. And yes, if I sound cynical, it's because I am suffering from burnout at the moment.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I for one love video games. When done right, they are my favorite art form. I am "anti" any game that uses psychological tricks to get me to keep playing. And for stuff like Celeste, Gris, and Hellblade and Portal that keep me engaged by providing an inherently fulfilling experience.

jniedrauer 7y ago

> an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return. You just described mountaineering, rock climbing, skiing, running a marathon, skydiving, surfing, scuba diving, and just about every other amateur athletic pursuit.

meditate 7y ago
I won't deny that. With the exception of long-distance running, all of those are cost-prohibitive luxury activities, just like gaming.
duopixel 7y ago
There are clear returns there: immersion in nature, cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain, social bonding, etc.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > immersion in nature That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. I personally don't find this interesting. > social bonding This applies to plenty of videogames as well - both directly to multiplayer, and to singleplayer games as social objects for discussions with other people. > cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain In the same sense, videogames exercise your reaction time, complex reasoning skills and spatial awareness. Point being - side effects are side effects, but both videogames and those outdoor pursuits listed are just waste of time, economically speaking.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    > That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. Some reading on green exercise: http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_543531_en.html http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_543531_en.ht...