6 ms·
Ask HN: Why does no one talk about working or interviewing for Apple?
I find it interesting that people here talk about the interview process and working at companies such as Google and Microsoft, but I almost never hear about Apple.
Why is this? Is it the iPhone/Android debate? Or is it something else?
- naithemilkman 16y agoThe first rule of working at Apple - No one talks about Apple.
- mmatey 16y agoOk ya, I understand it's a secretive culture. But plenty of people talk about going to, and getting rejected, at other places also...
- iwr 16y agoSecond rule of Apple: one button and no more. If you need more, just use the on-screen buttons.
- seltzered 16y agoI actually understood the one-button mouse idea recently. It forces software developers to try not to hide all the useful features behind right-click menus, but figure out how to consistently lead a user to where they want to go. User Story: My wifi wasn't working on my windows laptop the other day, I knew there was some nice "troubleshoot network" button, but I could not find it for the life of me every time i clicked on the wifi icon, causing me to go through the "network and sharing center" menu . 10 minutes later I finally realized right-clicking instantly brought up the troubleshoot menu.
- coliveira 16y ago> It forces software developers to try not to hide all the useful features except that in the Mac you can option-click, which is even more complicated than a right click. There is always a way to make features obscure, if you want to.
- foljs 16y ago>except that in the Mac you can option-click, which is even >more complicated than a right click. There is always a way >to make features obscure, if you want to. Emm, I think you missed his point. This is EXACTLY why the single button mouse forced software developers to make it work with a single click --because it made the "right click" equivalent more difficult for the user.
- ecuzzillo 16y agoYeah! Gimp sucks for precisely the reason that they fall headlong into that trap.
- mfukar 16y agoCertainly, you must mean the on-screen button.
- zandorg 16y agoThere's folklore.org but that's like 25 years ago.
- fogus 16y agoNDA?
- theDoug 16y agoMy first guess would be respect for the company. Secondarily, plenty of results in google reveal that the policy (if somewhat unofficially) is that you can say you work at Apple on your blog, etc, but not really blog /about/ Working At Apple. Even if there's no official policy on it, it's just better taste to say "The thoughts of John Doe" and not represent oneself as "John Doe of Apple." "There's a PR department for that." All that said, there are plenty of writers/bloggers who work at Apple. Randsinrepose.com is a personal favorite, and contains the writing work of Michael Lopp who may be an engineering manager at the fruit company. This policy of sorts goes much further back than iPhone/Android or any other blog-hyped non-competition.
- bpm140 16y agoThe first rule of Fight Club?
- whogivesashirt 16y ago"No smoking."
- rahoulb 16y agothat's the second rule
- stevefink 16y agoProbably because most of the people working there would like to keep their jobs.
- dejb 16y agoFreedom, yeah baby!
- revorad 16y agoThere's enough talk here about Apple, maybe not about working or interviewing there, but honestly there's just way too much talk about big companies on HN already; we don't need more. What's the point of this meta thread anyway? Are you planning to work at Apple? If so, why don't you just ask specific direct questions about that? Flagged for zero content.
- dawsdesign 16y agoSounds like personal preference. This site is for natural selection. If people are interested in it then it will get voted up. Voted Up because I've often wondered it myself
- revorad 16y agoThis site is not completely for natural selection. I think PG would agree or there would be no moderation. Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism. http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
- nostrademons 16y agoIt's kinda interesting, though, that when this site was founded almost 4 years ago, everything was about "What's it like to work for a startup?" And now, everything is apparently "What's it like to work for Google/Facebook/Apple?" I wonder if that's a symptom of HN's widening userbase, or if it's a sign of the times. Back in 2007, the startup market was very glutted, and a lot of people (including myself) were founding companies who probably should not have been. Now, it seems like every top developer's dream is to work for one of the Big 3. I wonder if that's a sign that it's time to start founding companies again.
- alanstorm 16y agoDon't forget that some of the original Hacker News user base is getting older and deciding to try out new things. Working for a large technology company, even if you ultimately want to strike out on your own, is a good experience and can teach you a lot of thing you're not going to learn at a startup or small business (simply because you'll never encounter them)
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- xentronium 16y agoI believe that they've got somewhat strictest policies on talking about internal stuff. Well, at least that's what some bloggers write about [1] and I haven't heard about any counter-proofs. [1] http://gizmodo.com/5427058/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-down-leaks http://gizmodo.com/5427058/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-dow...
- larsberg 16y agoI agree. I have close, personal friends who went to work at Apple. The last time I talked to one of them, they started getting visibly nervous just talking about the breakfast they had at the on-campus cafe. Not what it cost, or what it was, but even that it existed. I quickly changed the topic.
- czhiddy 16y agoSounds like your friend suffers from bizarre paranoia or acute social anxiety. (See how I can just make stuff up too?) Having been invited multiple times by friends to Infinite Loop for lunch and dinner, and debated the quality of the food vs Google's with them (Google still wins on that front), I can safely say that nobody at Apple gives a shit if employees talk about the cafe. The Gizmodo article is pretty much bullshit as well, my friends tell me. Unless there are groups at Apple that are more secretive than the UI team/iPhone/iPad are and actually enforce those rules on their own.
- 16y ago
- noobuntu 16y agoThe man in the black turtleneck will find you if you talk
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- ihsw 16y agoThough the `mysqldump` command looks inconspicuous, it does cause mysql to lock the tables in the entire database (which, if it is large and/or your connection is poor, will take a while (minutes? hours? depends)). Proper replication is a preferable solution, but if you are already aware of the concept of replication you will undoubtedly already be aware of database locking (and when it happens).
- KuraFire 16y agoFor the people working there, talking about it on a public forum is cause enough to get fired, and hiding behind an online alias is not going to give you enough protection. Apple is full of really smart people, who like their jobs well enough not to risk losing them so casually and for such little incentive. As for the process of interviewing: for a lot of the more interesting jobs at Apple, interviewing involves signing an NDA. Hence, whether or not they end up getting hired, they’re contractually prevented from talking about the interview process. Having worked there in the past myself but not anymore, I can speak only _somewhat_ freely about it all. The interview process can be intense, taking up to several weeks and with a minimum of 4 interviews, but usually 7 or 8. Often, for practicality reasons (travel to Cupertino), all those interviews are done in a single day, and if it's more than 8 it'll be done across two+ days. As for the specifics of an average interview itself, I can’t really say anything. And as for working there, my own experience was largely fantastic, but it wasn't for me in the end. Apple's campus is by far the nicest I've seen of all the major companies (and I've seen all the ones in Silicon Valley), and though there is always a constant pressure, stress and a major (and insane) deadline to make, working there is incredibly satisfying. Unless, perhaps, you're at MobileMe. But maybe that was just me.
- jashkenas 16y ago"Unless, perhaps, you're at MobileMe" -- sounds like you've got some gossip to get off your chest. Anything you care to share?
- KuraFire 16y agoNot at all. It was just difficult to find the same kind of satisfaction in your work when other parts of the product fail so spectacularly. The MobileMe launch was a widely known failure, and the effects of that (and the problems) went on for a long time. Still today, there are many (legitimate) complaints about MobileMe, and such things impact one's satisfaction quite a lot.
- reelgeek 16y agoWell job satisfaction with a department really depends on if you're actually doing the work requested and the terms on which you left (or were terminated, right?) Not that I had a love affair with MMe at the end of my job, but that had to do with the policies that Apple employs in terms of mass communication of pre-release products, and not with the level of talent in the existing team.
- lwhi 16y agoFear is a man's best friend.
- megamark16 16y ago"Fear is a dictator's best friend" FTFY :-)
- lwhi 16y agoThe phrase is a reference to a John Cale song.
- whogivesashirt 16y agoI'm earwormed with the Billy Bragg song, myself.
- epynonymous 16y agobut i think the author's got a point, you never hear about any stalwarts of software dev defecting to apple, do you?
- rahoulb 16y agono never. not jordan hubbard, not dominic giampolo. no-one.
- nostrademons 16y agoWho?
- rahoulb 16y agoTsk, young people today. No idea of history (where history == about ten years ago)
- _delirium 16y agoIt could be that it's not as common currently? I may have just missed it, but I haven't noticed any high-profile moves to Apple in the past 2-3 years, contrary to the situation with people moving around between Microsoft, Google, and Facebook.
- rimantas 16y agoI was thinking about Ivan Krstić, but he did not really defect to Apple.
- cosmicray 16y agoThere were 3 basic periods at Apple: the beginnings (aka Steve I), the Dark Ages (roughly '85-'97), and Steve Returns. During the Dark Ages, Apple leaked internal information badly. One of the first things that Steve did upon return was try to clamp down (and fire people if necessary). He even had one of those WW-II posters "Loose lips sink ships" tacked up. And there is a certain truth to that. Competition has heated up (esp in the mobile space). Anyone and everyone would love to know what Apple is working on now, and what they will announce next month. Witness the kerkuffle with gawker over the iphone 4 engineering test device. So people at Apple learn to say nothing, or move on down the road.
- limmeau 16y agoWhen Glyph Lefkowitz (of the Twisted project) was hired, he posted unboxing pics of his job offer to his blog (which has since been closed down). He praised the usability of the letter. Second-hand mention in: http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/unboxing-an-apple-job-offer-2009106/ http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/unboxing-an-apple-job-off...
- rohan037 16y agoWe all talk about how Megan Fox is hot, but then return to designing a descript schemantic intended to woo the girl next door. And I dont mean to say that apple is out of one's league.
- adamtj 16y agoWhether it's intentional or coincidence, it's interesting how it parallels their products. There are approximately three people who work for Apple. They are the shiny, slick interface. Everything else is an implementation detail. Jonathan Ive is like OS X. Nobody knows how OS X actually works, but they know the name and that it is why their screen shows such pretty things.
- funkah 16y agoWhat makes you say nobody knows how OS X actually works? The developer documents aren't a big batch of jokes, they describe how the system works. Also take a look at "Mac OS X Internals" by Amit Singh, there's more about the inner workings of OS X there than you could ever possibly care to know.
- adamtj 16y agoWhen I say nobody, I mean no normal people. By posting here, you automatically exclude yourself from that group. Your mom doesn't know how OS X works.
- funkah 16y agoNormal people aren't supposed to know OS internals, that's the whole point of UI abstractions! They have more important matters to deal with when they use a computer. OS X isn't any different from other OSs in this regard: your mom doesn't know what the registry is.
- darwinGod 16y agoRegarding NDA's - Don't most companies sign some sort of an NDA with potential hires/ employees??Still, interview questions of most companies are available if you google well enough. But yeah, the difference is humongous- Apple doesnt seem to have the faintest thing similar to mini-microsoft :-)
- Bud 16y agoI interviewed for Apple earlier this month. I didn't get the position, but I really enjoyed the challenging interview process and meeting the 7 people who interviewed me. I had a phone interview with a manager, and then a three-hour process at Apple HQ in which I was interviewed by three pairs of employees from the team I was applying to work with. I was very impressed that they devoted so much employee time to talking with me. They were very friendly people, and asked an interesting variety of questions, ranging from puzzles to how I'd handle various theoretical work scenarios to technical questions of various kinds. The gent who recommended me told me that he had to apply six times before getting hired, so I'm planning to keep applying, for other positions. There. Now someone has posted about interviewing at Apple. Happy? :)
- HectorRamos 16y agoI interviewed for Apple a few months ago. I didn't get to the NDA signing part (I backed out because another opportunity came up during the process) but still wouldn't talk about the interviews I went through because I still hope to go back and try again someday (in the slim chance that our current venture doesn't work out).
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- jaysonelliot 16y agoI interviewed with Apple last year, and I wasn't asked to sign an NDA. That said, I didn't actually see anything that would have required one. I didn't apply to Apple - they found me. A year later, I'm still not sure how that happened, since I don't know anyone there. It could have been through a public talk about user experience that I gave (the position was for UX director of the Apple web site), it might have been through something I wrote, or it could have been as mundane as a LinkedIn search. I went through a series of phone interviews in the usual ascending order. Everyone I spoke with was very sincere and conversational, there were no MS or Google-style "tests" to go through. We looked at work I'd done, I talked about my approach to UX, we got to know one another a bit. Eventually, they flew me out to Cupertino (I live in NYC), and put me up at a nice hotel near the Apple campus. I spent a full day in an interview room, meeting various members of the team I would be working with, both above and below the position I was being considered for. The only time we left the conference room where the interviews were happening was to take a stroll over to the cafe for lunch. I went with most of the team, and we talked about day to day life at Apple, what it's like working with tight security, the fancy Apple buses that take employees from SF and the East Bay to work, people's personal projects and hobbies, etc. I got some insight into the way Apple works, and predictably, there was none of the corporate silliness that you'd find in a less confident company, none of the buzzwords or process for the sake of process. I could see that they all worked incredibly hard, but the fulfillment on everyone's faces made me want very much to be a part of it. In the end, I didn't get the job - they ended up either not filling the position at all, changing their team structure, I'm not sure - they left me feeling very good about myself and the experience, probably the best way that I've ever not gotten a job. The main impression I was left with was that I had just wandered back to a pre-dot com era where people worked incredibly hard to make great things, rather than to maximize profits or burn towards an IPO or whatever. It was one of the most human job interviews I'd ever been through.
- bryanallen22 16y agoMy experiences were similar. I had several interviews with Apple: 1) Several phone interviews for an internship. They don't do fly outs for internships, if I remember correctly. I never finished this process because I took another position before the interviews were complete. 2) Phone interviews and fly out for a position about 1 year ago. The team had good things to say about me, but it wasn't a good fit for either myself or that team. I was referred to another part of Apple, where I started over. 3) Phone interviews and fly out for a different position just one week after #2. In a spat of horrible luck, I lost my contact lens at the hotel that morning. I decided that a makeshift eyepatch wouldn't look good, but having only 1 contact lens in gave me a splitting headache. As I struggled more than I should have, I felt them grow more cold. I was kindly told that the interviews were over about 3/4 of the way through. Similar to jaysonelliot, I didn't sign an NDA and didn't leave the interview room except for lunch. A few notable things about my interviews: I was asked to code over the phone. That's much harder than white board coding, in my opinion. It was something fairly easy, though (atoi in c, or something like that). I felt like I was judged on my Apple culture. When I revealed that I didn't know Objective C, that didn't seem to matter to much, but when I revealed that I didn't own an iPhone or a Mac, I did feel that my answers weren't what they were hoping. The questions were very broad. Because I come from both a hardware and a software background, I was asked about everything from basic power dissipation to more traditional CS topics. Honestly, I felt a much more happy and welcome atmosphere at Microsoft, which surprised me. It was kind of the opposite of the consumer perspectives of those companies.
- AlexC04 16y agoThe first rule of interviewing at apple is that you do not talk about interviewing at apple.
- anonymon 16y agoIf you go to Apple, you might be surprised to find out that you've already agreed to some form of NDA with them. Especially, for example, if you're a part of any Apple Developer program. They might not always feel compelled to remind you of this, however. I wouldn't know, though; I don't think I recall ever having been to Apple. No, not in a million years. I do find this Apple sweatshirt which I must've found at a thrift store to be especially comfy, however.
- the_jc 16y agoI blogged about my experiences both in Apple Retail, and in "corporate" Apple for a number of years. Eventually I took it all down, though not due to any pressure from the company. I took it down because I was inundated with emails from 15 year olds who wanted to know how to get a job in an AppleStore. But I worked for Apple for 6 years in Retail and AppleCare, and interfaced extensively with hardware engineering. I'm not sure I'd have anything interesting to say, but if you have any questions, I'll try my best to answer them.
- pitdesi 16y agoI interviewed at Apple for a product manager role. I have an MBA, and they were an on-campus recruiter. I interviewed on campus, then they called me to tell me I was going to have a 2nd round interview in Cupertino. 2 weeks later, I haven't heard anything and I am scheduled to be in Mountain View for a GOOG interview. I email them, telling them that I'd be happy to come in and save myself the time and them the travel expense... They email me a week later (post my interview) and tell me "that should work..." They really have a crappy set of recruiters working there. Ultimately, I needed to accept another job (ended up being at AMZN), and Apple never actually got back to me. I've heard some similar stories about recruiter ineptitude there.
- jacques_chester 16y agoSo they treat engineers and designers better than MBAs? Oh noes!
- misnomer 16y agoI worked at Apple EMEIA for a year and, truth be told, the interview process there depends. It depends on where you want to work. If it's in Cupertino I'm told it's a completely different story to the EMEIA office. Having worked there, I can vouch for there really being a culture of absolute secrecy. It's quite common for one team to not know what's going on in the other corner of the room with another team. Secrecy has gotten even more prevalent in the EMEIA office (the office being made up of project managers alone, it was formerly less secretive than Apple World Wide/Cupertino) since the Gizmodo iPhone 4 affair. As regards fear related to Apple's security paranoia? It was moreover regarded as an irritation. Going back to the interview process at Apple EMEIA (I can't say for Apple WW), it depends entirely upon who interviews you, which team, for what role, and what level. There is no set pattern. There may be an NDA for the interview process, there may not. It depends on the role and the person you are seeing. I know some who've had only two interviews, some who've had nine. It depends.
- madridorama 16y agoi have a friend that works at apple, and other than providing a vague job description and saying they like it, they don't discuss details. i think it's the culture, your work speaks for itself. he puts in long hours (on par with goog really) and has a great salary and perks.
- te_chris 16y agoSounds like a cult tbh - and I'm a mac fan.
- JustinD 16y agoIt's simple. If you want the job, And you're smart, You'll keep your goddamn mouth shut.
- geebee 16y agoThis is a really interesting question, and got me thinking - maybe google's brutal interview process has a secondary purpose - to increase the allure of working at google? This reminds me of a business case I read once about the difference between Mac Donalds and Burger King. That Mac Donalds uses a batch processing method that is faster but requires a higher skill level, whereas BK uses an assembly line, and that this affects their advertising. MacD's ads often double as recruiting ads, whereas BK tends to emphasize "have it your way" (easier to customize when you make burgers one at a time). Maybe Google wants to interview more people than necessary, and subject them to an interview that leaves them thinking "man, you need to be at the top of your game to work there!" as a way of increasing the prestige of working there (and perhaps getting more top applicants?) The thing is, I don't really see why this strategy would apply more to google than apple (unlike the MD vs BK thing...) One thing is sure - devs are all aware of google's notorious interview process, but we (well, I should really just speak for myself, so I) never really hear these stories about apple.
- jacques_chester 16y agoAnthropologists have noted for a long time that social groups with high barriers to entry engender greater loyalty. This behaviour occurs throughout many cultures -- from tribal rites of passage through to frat boy hazing, the nastier the experience, the stronger the bond. I expect that brutal interviewing is no different.
- dnsworks 16y agoRemember the Oompa Loompas? Same concept.
- momotomo 16y agoThe NDA comments across this thread are interesting, in the company I work for we NDA on just about every single external interaction. We're an IP black hole - anything you do using company resources (including sitting interviews) is considered our IP and is controlled as such. We often get PHD students in to do research for us, and we compensate the hell out of them - because nothing they do ever leaves the walls. They sign a series of NDA and IP related contracts up front and don't get to use any external assets internally or vice versa. The structure of the business itself is a mess of interwoven black box systems / IP and our own work, so it gets pretty aggressive / tight lipped whenever anyone is dealing with other people / companies, even internal branches.