8 ms·

Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

90 points by santix 8y ago

albeec13 8y ago
The title here, the title in the actual article, and the content of the article aren't telling the same story. Here: "Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands" Article: "Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D. Power Finds" Article content (paraphrasing): "Lexus, Porsche top the list" "Most German manufacturers lag behind US" So which is it? Bloomberg doesn't appear to be trying too hard here.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  Bloomberg reporting can barely be called reporting. It's half-assed regurgitated content that's often inaccurate these days.
buboard 8y ago
this is common knowledge among farmers here.
PaulHoule 8y ago
A Cadillac is not just an expensive car, it is an expensive car to own. (Gas, repair bills, etc.) If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time. Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans so you often see them in "bad" neighborhoods. Some would say the people there are not in a hurry to get anywhere.
- bdcravens 8y ago
  Puzzled why you would mention this brand, as it's never mentioned in the article.
  - burger_moon 8y ago
    Perhaps because Cadillac is a brand by GM, the manufacturer who also makes Chevy. Cadillac is the luxury brand of GM which would compete with luxury brands.
    - bdcravens 8y ago
      Ditto for Infiniti (Nissan), Acura (Honda), and Audi (VW). I realize none of those brands are useful for making unrelated demographic-based comments, however.
      - petschge 8y ago
        For the Volkswagen group, I would list Bentley, Lamborghini or Bugatti as their luxury offerings. Audi is more middle class and sold in large numbers, at least in Europe.
        danans 8y ago
        In the US, Audi, BMW and similar European brands are intentionally marketed as a mid to high luxury vehicles to preserve their brand mystique. None of these companies sell mass-market cars in the US in the same tier as mass-market cars by Toyota, GM, etc. Most of these brands do sell mass-market cars in Europe, though. It's also worth noting that in the US, most families have had multiple cars due to the lack of alternative transit options, and so families of modest means buy lower cost vehicles as a result. Only recently are multi-car households are seeing a big uptick in places like the UK [1], and in many developed urban areas of Europe, the car is used by families as a "weekend getaway" vehicle, not a daily commuter. When you only have to buy one car, you might be able to afford more luxury. [1] https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-household-soar-LV-insurance-competition-holiday-commuting-family-trip https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-ho...
        bdcravens 8y ago
        In the US Audi is positioned alongside Lexus, BMW, etc. Those luxury brands you listed aren't the level the article was addressing.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. Some can, the rest of the higher class people literally just drive Camrys, Accords, and Fusions because they need to be places just as much as the next guy.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. It's a pattern. People with money will deliberately show they can spend more money. Those wide, droopy sleeves you sometimes see in historical shows? Rich people simply bought clothes that used more fabric, just so they could show they could afford it. The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans According to the actress who played "Snoop" in "The Wire" the appeal of Cadillac in lower class urban neighborhoods was entirely gone by the 2000's, and replaced by the Lexus.
  - dgudkov 8y ago
    >Those wide, droopy sleeves you sometimes see in historical shows? Rich people simply bought clothes that used more fabric, just so they could show they could afford it. As far as I know it was to demonstrate that the owner of such clothes doesn't have to work. Because such clothes make it extremely difficult to perform any manual work.
- potta_coffee 8y ago
  I have multiple beater cars. What class does that put me in?
- Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
  > If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time. That has nothing to do with being a "W-2 worker". Being a W-2 just means you're not an independent contractor. I'm a W-2 worker, and if my car breaks down, I can just send an e-mail to my team and tell them I'll be working from home.
kogus 8y ago
This comment seems wrong to me: There is no inherent reason why a more-expensive car should be better or worse in terms of reliability than a less-expensive car, so my guess is they’ll track each other fairly closely going forward. If the metric is per car faults, then surely more features mean more opportunities for defects, given an equal attention to quality across all features?
- dfxm12 8y ago
  The shift is a combination of mass-market cars catching up in overall quality and less new technology in these vehicles that can increase the chance of something going wrong Part of it seems to be that there aren't more features in luxury cars. If you look at the graph, we're seeing mass market cars getting fewer problems and luxury cars remaining relatively flat.
- kbutler 8y ago
  I'd say that there are reasons that both higher and lower price vehicles should have fewer defects, but it's not clear which reasons would dominate. (And probably different factors dominate in different periods of car production). High cost: more attention to detail, higher quality parts, more care with fit and finish, should yield fewer defects. Low cost: simpler vehicle systems, fewer moving parts, fewer unproven features, mass production with consistent processes, should yield fewer defects.
dickeytk 8y ago
The people that buy luxury cars don't care. It'll be under warranty during this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren't will likely be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn't much incentive for the manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.
- athenot 8y ago
  This is true. But there is an important corollary: never buy a used luxury car that's in it's third phase of life (>120k mikes). Both the amount and the cost of repairs are significantly higher. But it's a sucker's deal where people can get a nice car for a while, but which will end up costing them way more than, say, a moderately used Toyota.
  - sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
    Is a used a Lexus a good hack for getting a higher-end car that will also be cheap to fix, because it uses the same parts as a Toyota?
  - dawnerd 8y ago
    A good channel does exactly that for entertainment https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA
SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a pending flash. I've worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers. Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don't just mean the module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can't even SEE radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have compiler access to most things, now it's extremely rare. The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc. Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put in besides surface level customer view. I've found obvious glitches in zero mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013 I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I'd allow for two-three years worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn't mean you're "safe" with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong? Well, surprise, you're likely to fall victim to a different issue. As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don't realize you can't leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it'll charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery and electronics warranty if they find a radar/laser detector hooked up because THAT is how finicky the electronics system is. It's funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more features. As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things plus some. So fundamentally they're the same, but yes, add features add problem areas.
- davidw 8y ago
  That's some interesting insight... I wonder where it'll all end up... it's kind of difficult for markets to function well with things so utterly opaque to the average consumer. I wonder if it'll end up regulated, or if the fear of lawsuits or something else will knock people in line. That said, the best answer is clearly to ride bikes more! A lot better for the environment, your wallet, and your own health! http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/18/get-rich-with-bikes/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/18/get-rich-with-bike...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
YeahSureWhyNot 8y ago
"Luxury Brands" is a vague concept. Maserati, MB S Class, Cadillac Escalade, BMW 7 Series are all luxuru vehicles but aren't supposed to hold up well. They are expensive luxury toys, and cant be used as work horses like Lexuses or Acuras are.
davidw 8y ago
I've driven a number of older Toyotas and (fingers crossed) that seems to be my experience.
nkingsy 8y ago
Lexus came in #1 followed by Porsche but that didn't make for as good of a headline I guess.
babyslothzoo 8y ago
Isn't this well known? Toyotas have legendary reliability
- randcraw 8y ago
  But their truck frames are also legendary for rusting out -- a very expensive repair.
  - babyslothzoo 8y ago
    Are they anymore so than other cars driven where they salt the roads? I have not heard that.
    - lb1lf 8y ago
      Anecdotal experience (Long-time Land Cruiser owner in Western Norway where the SOP at first snow is to salt the heck out of it) suggests that Toyotas do rust like mad; I work hard all year keeping my Land Cruisers (a 1981 BJ42 and a 1998 KZJ95) reasonably rust-free. I have to treat them to lanolin twice a winter season.
    - quicklyfrozen 8y ago
      Yes -- just search classified ads in northern states for Toyota trucks with new frames.
    - jhayward 8y ago
      Yes. There was a decade or so of production truck frames for Tacoma and Tundra trucks where Toyota paid to replace the frames due to rust. It was supposedly a supplier problem.
kenhwang 8y ago
This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting. Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher. If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers): 10: Lexus, Toyota 9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche 8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo 7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram 5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover. So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British. Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia, Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.
- headmelted 8y ago
  Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise. I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generations as possible. I have no idea if the chap knew what he was talking about or not but it would certainly seem to stand up to my own anecdotal scrutiny - the car is 18 years old and still drives like new (it stayed in the extended family), which is more than can be said for the Renault that replaced it >:-(
  - thorwasdfasdf 8y ago
    Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.
Simulacra 8y ago
I've always shied away from luxury brands because repairs are so expensive. Little things like a switch, or a seat lever, or even trying to replace the middle console lid because your kid scratched it up, is always more expensive when its a luxury brand. Just because it comes from BMW doesn't mean it should automatically be more expensive.
pravda 8y ago
A few words about J.D. Power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY
danans 8y ago
As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn't likely to be that big since EVs are much simpler machines. A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience (smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for "free" in an EV, even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there's much less to differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  What denotes a luxury car for the most part is the cabin interior quality, and that will stick around in the EV era too. Toyota has a bunch of somewhat related experience with the Prius, so they might still come out on top in the end of these EV wars?
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally. It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.
  - gonzo 8y ago
    Had a Tesla Model S. Got rid of it, went back to Toyota. Dumped the reservation on a Model 3, too.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
Still relevant: https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805 https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
vondur 8y ago
Most people I know that have German usually have electronic/electrical issues. The actual drivetrains are good but the electrical systems have a lot of issues.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Assessing "reliability" between brands is very hard (and a lost cause IMO) because there's tons of things that have a large effect but are hard to measure and quantify. Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image. Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly. When it comes to vehicles >8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what's reliable or what's popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles over a certain age and/or under a certain value to the South American (from North America) and African/Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly (wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by people who don't or who tend to buy/sell private party (less wealthy on average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1 representation of what was or wasn't reliable or what was or wasn't popular back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a 'Vic in '94 and has been driving it since. Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service. Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series. Also, just because you never see a particular make/model where you live doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers elsewhere. There's probably a few things I'm forgetting but people would do well to keep in mind all the things that aren't being controlled for when they read about vehicle "reliability".
Neil44 8y ago
I don’t think the survey takes into account the differing expectations of the buyers of the different brands. Someone buying a Mercedes has different expectations than someone buying a Corola and this would strongly influence issue numbers.
- gnicholas 8y ago
  Definitely true. I knew a guy who bought a BMW 5-series and was annoyed at a whistling sound that it made. When you pay $50k+ for a vehicle, you expect that it will perform at exacting standards. Also, the fact that it's under warranty and the BMW dealership will give you a loaner makes you more likely to take it in for extended troubleshooting/repair.
grewil2 8y ago
I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It's 25 years old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and I can't help thinking that there's a lot more electronics and mechanisms that can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have become a grumpy old man.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Volvo is Chinese nowadays, the 940 you've bought is Swedish and no cost was spared in making it that reliable. That's also why Volvo is Chinese nowadays.
  - zokula 8y ago
    By that logic Toyota should of been Chinese 20 years ago?
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      Toyota has always been very frugal while delivering quality, Volvo was not, so no. And I think you meant 'have' instead of 'of'. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way , pay extra attention to section #2. Volvo took a much more 'premium' route towards quality, starting with galvanized steel bodies and other such costly measures, as well as producing on less efficient lines than Toyota. Even so, their reputation until the Chinese take-over was excellent, since then the division is as far as I know profitable so maybe this is a happy medium between baked in quality and cost to produce. But it will never go back to the 'tank' status that their older line-up has, which in a way is good because the modern ones fare much better in the crash tests than the oldies, even against mid-range cars in head-on or side-on collisions. On another note, given the history between the two countries I don't see the Japanese government ok'ing a take-over of one of their prime brands by the Chinese. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations
      - 8y ago
diddid 8y ago
I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  Doesn't explain the Porsche tie with Toyota unless you're suggesting Porsche drivers are more like Toyota drivers than BMW.
  - theluketaylor 8y ago
    porsche builds their cars for track work, so even hard driving around town is light load for them (maybe not the macan). Hard launches are among the toughest thing you can do to an ICE car. Most cars with launch control can do a few launches and then something overheats and the car refuses to do any more for a while. A car journalist tried to launch a PDK 911 until it failed. He got bored after 50 straight launches and stopped.
    - kenhwang 8y ago
      Well, boredom and to commemorate the 911's 50th birthday.
  - diddid 8y ago
    I’m not saying it’s the only factor just a single factor that people tend to overlook. But I think Porsche has a higher percentage of car enthusiast in addition to a higher quality build process. So the owners will take better care of the car, won’t drive it in poor weather etc, where a BMW is often a daily driver. Again, not saying it’s the factor just a factor. Like I just saw something that was “Here are states with the worst drivers” but the data was based on speeding tickets etc. So to me they should have really said “Here are the states with the most enforcement”. Ok, maybe not related at all.
acroback 8y ago
God bless my Mazda 3 2012. I spent a total of $1200(wipers, tires, engine oil) in 100k miles and still gives me 39 mpg on highways. Love the car. My next Car is going to be either Japanese or a Korean.
sitkack 8y ago
This is always true, the mass produced thing is going to have manufacturing lines that are tuned. And Toyota or Chevy can't afford to have a recall on something they made 100k of . Bespoke luxury vehicles are nearly hand made, with all the errors that hand building entails. Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and process with a cuisanart.

90 points by santix 8y ago

The title here, the title in the actual article, and the content of the article aren't telling the same story. Here: "Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands" Article: "Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D. Power Finds" Article content (paraphrasing): "Lexus, Porsche top the list" "Most German manufacturers lag behind US" So which is it? Bloomberg doesn't appear to be trying too hard here.

kenhwang 8y ago
Bloomberg reporting can barely be called reporting. It's half-assed regurgitated content that's often inaccurate these days.

buboard 8y ago

this is common knowledge among farmers here.

PaulHoule 8y ago

A Cadillac is not just an expensive car, it is an expensive car to own. (Gas, repair bills, etc.) If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time. Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans so you often see them in "bad" neighborhoods. Some would say the people there are not in a hurry to get anywhere.

bdcravens 8y ago
Puzzled why you would mention this brand, as it's never mentioned in the article.
- burger_moon 8y ago
  Perhaps because Cadillac is a brand by GM, the manufacturer who also makes Chevy. Cadillac is the luxury brand of GM which would compete with luxury brands.
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    Ditto for Infiniti (Nissan), Acura (Honda), and Audi (VW). I realize none of those brands are useful for making unrelated demographic-based comments, however.
    - petschge 8y ago
      For the Volkswagen group, I would list Bentley, Lamborghini or Bugatti as their luxury offerings. Audi is more middle class and sold in large numbers, at least in Europe.
      - danans 8y ago
        In the US, Audi, BMW and similar European brands are intentionally marketed as a mid to high luxury vehicles to preserve their brand mystique. None of these companies sell mass-market cars in the US in the same tier as mass-market cars by Toyota, GM, etc. Most of these brands do sell mass-market cars in Europe, though. It's also worth noting that in the US, most families have had multiple cars due to the lack of alternative transit options, and so families of modest means buy lower cost vehicles as a result. Only recently are multi-car households are seeing a big uptick in places like the UK [1], and in many developed urban areas of Europe, the car is used by families as a "weekend getaway" vehicle, not a daily commuter. When you only have to buy one car, you might be able to afford more luxury. [1] https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-household-soar-LV-insurance-competition-holiday-commuting-family-trip https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/912000/two-cars-ho...
      - bdcravens 8y ago
        In the US Audi is positioned alongside Lexus, BMW, etc. Those luxury brands you listed aren't the level the article was addressing.
microcolonel 8y ago
> Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. Some can, the rest of the higher class people literally just drive Camrys, Accords, and Fusions because they need to be places just as much as the next guy.
stcredzero 8y ago
Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. It's a pattern. People with money will deliberately show they can spend more money. Those wide, droopy sleeves you sometimes see in historical shows? Rich people simply bought clothes that used more fabric, just so they could show they could afford it. The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans According to the actress who played "Snoop" in "The Wire" the appeal of Cadillac in lower class urban neighborhoods was entirely gone by the 2000's, and replaced by the Lexus.
- dgudkov 8y ago
  >Those wide, droopy sleeves you sometimes see in historical shows? Rich people simply bought clothes that used more fabric, just so they could show they could afford it. As far as I know it was to demonstrate that the owner of such clothes doesn't have to work. Because such clothes make it extremely difficult to perform any manual work.
potta_coffee 8y ago
I have multiple beater cars. What class does that put me in?
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
> If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time. That has nothing to do with being a "W-2 worker". Being a W-2 just means you're not an independent contractor. I'm a W-2 worker, and if my car breaks down, I can just send an e-mail to my team and tell them I'll be working from home.

kogus 8y ago

This comment seems wrong to me: There is no inherent reason why a more-expensive car should be better or worse in terms of reliability than a less-expensive car, so my guess is they’ll track each other fairly closely going forward. If the metric is per car faults, then surely more features mean more opportunities for defects, given an equal attention to quality across all features?

dfxm12 8y ago
The shift is a combination of mass-market cars catching up in overall quality and less new technology in these vehicles that can increase the chance of something going wrong Part of it seems to be that there aren't more features in luxury cars. If you look at the graph, we're seeing mass market cars getting fewer problems and luxury cars remaining relatively flat.
kbutler 8y ago
I'd say that there are reasons that both higher and lower price vehicles should have fewer defects, but it's not clear which reasons would dominate. (And probably different factors dominate in different periods of car production). High cost: more attention to detail, higher quality parts, more care with fit and finish, should yield fewer defects. Low cost: simpler vehicle systems, fewer moving parts, fewer unproven features, mass production with consistent processes, should yield fewer defects.

dickeytk 8y ago

The people that buy luxury cars don't care. It'll be under warranty during this time and the dealer will offer a free loaner car while it is being repaired. Most of these cars are leased and the ones that aren't will likely be sold around the 3 year mark. There isn't much incentive for the manufacturers to make them reliable unlike with mass market cars.

athenot 8y ago
This is true. But there is an important corollary: never buy a used luxury car that's in it's third phase of life (>120k mikes). Both the amount and the cost of repairs are significantly higher. But it's a sucker's deal where people can get a nice car for a while, but which will end up costing them way more than, say, a moderately used Toyota.
- sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
  Is a used a Lexus a good hack for getting a higher-end car that will also be cheap to fix, because it uses the same parts as a Toyota?
- dawnerd 8y ago
  A good channel does exactly that for entertainment https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEczn3MVkx_4PnMZ10MVFA

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a pending flash. I've worked with two of the big three, and right now, neither own their traction control, radio, trans, body, ignition, steering, etc controllers. Basically anything. Even engines are being outsourced. I don't just mean the module, but the code on it. One of the mfgs, their engineers can't even SEE radio code or anything much more than general documents. They used to have compiler access to most things, now it's extremely rare. The mfgs wanted to outsource the development, and now when they need an adjustment to traction control it's a $50, 100, 250, 500,000 charge, BUT, they've also moved the responsibility to the mfgs like Bosch, ConTevis, etc. Short version is everyone is playing the game to get hot new electronics in cars, to make them seem as advanced as phones - but the work is not being put in besides surface level customer view. I've found obvious glitches in zero mile vehicles this year, but none I can think of from 2000-2013 I would not purchase a 2019 anything right now. I'd allow for two-three years worth of flashes before considering a new car. And that doesn't mean you're "safe" with your old car. You think your 2001 Subaru Outback is going strong? Well, surprise, you're likely to fall victim to a different issue. As to the article, yes, luxury cars are worse. Most people that don't realize you can't leave your touring Ferarri in the garage not hooked up to a trickle charger, or also picking on Ferarri that the LaFerarri when runs battery dead may require to be loaded on a truck and shipped to a dealer before it'll charge again, or that the new Range Rovers will attempt to void your battery and electronics warranty if they find a radar/laser detector hooked up because THAT is how finicky the electronics system is. It's funny to me the amount of work that your average Toyota or Chevy vehicle gets relative to lux models that skirt by with less engineering and more features. As to Cadillac and Lexus, those are just GM and Toyota, all the same things plus some. So fundamentally they're the same, but yes, add features add problem areas.

davidw 8y ago
That's some interesting insight... I wonder where it'll all end up... it's kind of difficult for markets to function well with things so utterly opaque to the average consumer. I wonder if it'll end up regulated, or if the fear of lawsuits or something else will knock people in line. That said, the best answer is clearly to ride bikes more! A lot better for the environment, your wallet, and your own health! http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/18/get-rich-with-bikes/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/18/get-rich-with-bike...

deleted 8y ago

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YeahSureWhyNot 8y ago

"Luxury Brands" is a vague concept. Maserati, MB S Class, Cadillac Escalade, BMW 7 Series are all luxuru vehicles but aren't supposed to hold up well. They are expensive luxury toys, and cant be used as work horses like Lexuses or Acuras are.

davidw 8y ago

I've driven a number of older Toyotas and (fingers crossed) that seems to be my experience.

nkingsy 8y ago

Lexus came in #1 followed by Porsche but that didn't make for as good of a headline I guess.

babyslothzoo 8y ago

Isn't this well known? Toyotas have legendary reliability

randcraw 8y ago
But their truck frames are also legendary for rusting out -- a very expensive repair.
- babyslothzoo 8y ago
  Are they anymore so than other cars driven where they salt the roads? I have not heard that.
  - lb1lf 8y ago
    Anecdotal experience (Long-time Land Cruiser owner in Western Norway where the SOP at first snow is to salt the heck out of it) suggests that Toyotas do rust like mad; I work hard all year keeping my Land Cruisers (a 1981 BJ42 and a 1998 KZJ95) reasonably rust-free. I have to treat them to lanolin twice a winter season.
  - quicklyfrozen 8y ago
    Yes -- just search classified ads in northern states for Toyota trucks with new frames.
  - jhayward 8y ago
    Yes. There was a decade or so of production truck frames for Tacoma and Tundra trucks where Toyota paid to replace the frames due to rust. It was supposedly a supplier problem.

kenhwang 8y ago

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting. Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher. If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers): 10: Lexus, Toyota 9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche 8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo 7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram 5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover. So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British. Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia, Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.

headmelted 8y ago
Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise. I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generations as possible. I have no idea if the chap knew what he was talking about or not but it would certainly seem to stand up to my own anecdotal scrutiny - the car is 18 years old and still drives like new (it stayed in the extended family), which is more than can be said for the Renault that replaced it >:-(
- thorwasdfasdf 8y ago
  Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.

Simulacra 8y ago

I've always shied away from luxury brands because repairs are so expensive. Little things like a switch, or a seat lever, or even trying to replace the middle console lid because your kid scratched it up, is always more expensive when its a luxury brand. Just because it comes from BMW doesn't mean it should automatically be more expensive.

pravda 8y ago

A few words about J.D. Power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKN5Wl4uTyY

danans 8y ago

As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp management system). However the difference between the reliability of EVs isn't likely to be that big since EVs are much simpler machines. A lot of the complexity that provides the luxury ICE driving experience (smooth, quiet drivetrain, strong acceleration) comes for "free" in an EV, even in mass market models. With that complexity gone, there's much less to differentiate cars from a reliability perspective.

woolvalley 8y ago
What denotes a luxury car for the most part is the cabin interior quality, and that will stick around in the EV era too. Toyota has a bunch of somewhat related experience with the Prius, so they might still come out on top in the end of these EV wars?
clouddrover 8y ago
> Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally. It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.
- gonzo 8y ago
  Had a Tesla Model S. Got rid of it, went back to Toyota. Dumped the reservation on a Model 3, too.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

Still relevant: https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805 https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...

vondur 8y ago

Most people I know that have German usually have electronic/electrical issues. The actual drivetrains are good but the electrical systems have a lot of issues.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Assessing "reliability" between brands is very hard (and a lost cause IMO) because there's tons of things that have a large effect but are hard to measure and quantify. Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image. Owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles. As vehicles get older they get cheaper they move down the economic ladder which tends to complicate things a little. In states with road salt wealthier people are much more likely to keep their vehicles in garages or wash them regularly. When it comes to vehicles >8yo (or whatever the oldest banks will write a loan for at present) you see on the road is not necessarily what's reliable or what's popular. The dealership auction system tends to siphon off vehicles over a certain age and/or under a certain value to the South American (from North America) and African/Middle Eastern (from Europe) markets. This means that vehicles owned by the demographics that tend to trade in regularly (wealthier on average) will not stick around as well as the vehicles owned by people who don't or who tend to buy/sell private party (less wealthy on average). So the old vehicle you see driving around are not necessarily a 1:1 representation of what was or wasn't reliable or what was or wasn't popular back in the year they were sold. Different demographics keep vehicles for different amounts of time. People tend to get new vehicles at life milestones younger people are moving up in the world commuting, starting families and this prompts them to change vehicle more often. Grandpa bought a 'Vic in '94 and has been driving it since. Replacement cost greatly effects a how long a vehicle is kept in service. Replacing a compact SUV is cheap compared to a 1-ton truck so at any point in time the owner of the big truck is much more likely to fix any problem that comes up rather than go looking for a replacement. Look at the 90s Fords you still see around. Ford sold a TON of Explorers yet 1st and 2nd gen Explorers are a rarity on the roads compared to F-series. Also, just because you never see a particular make/model where you live doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers elsewhere. There's probably a few things I'm forgetting but people would do well to keep in mind all the things that aren't being controlled for when they read about vehicle "reliability".

Neil44 8y ago

I don’t think the survey takes into account the differing expectations of the buyers of the different brands. Someone buying a Mercedes has different expectations than someone buying a Corola and this would strongly influence issue numbers.

gnicholas 8y ago
Definitely true. I knew a guy who bought a BMW 5-series and was annoyed at a whistling sound that it made. When you pay $50k+ for a vehicle, you expect that it will perform at exacting standards. Also, the fact that it's under warranty and the BMW dealership will give you a loaner makes you more likely to take it in for extended troubleshooting/repair.

grewil2 8y ago

I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It's 25 years old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and I can't help thinking that there's a lot more electronics and mechanisms that can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have become a grumpy old man.

jacquesm 8y ago
Volvo is Chinese nowadays, the 940 you've bought is Swedish and no cost was spared in making it that reliable. That's also why Volvo is Chinese nowadays.
- zokula 8y ago
  By that logic Toyota should of been Chinese 20 years ago?
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Toyota has always been very frugal while delivering quality, Volvo was not, so no. And I think you meant 'have' instead of 'of'. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way , pay extra attention to section #2. Volvo took a much more 'premium' route towards quality, starting with galvanized steel bodies and other such costly measures, as well as producing on less efficient lines than Toyota. Even so, their reputation until the Chinese take-over was excellent, since then the division is as far as I know profitable so maybe this is a happy medium between baked in quality and cost to produce. But it will never go back to the 'tank' status that their older line-up has, which in a way is good because the modern ones fare much better in the crash tests than the oldies, even against mid-range cars in head-on or side-on collisions. On another note, given the history between the two countries I don't see the Japanese government ok'ing a take-over of one of their prime brands by the Chinese. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations
    - 8y ago

diddid 8y ago

I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.

kenhwang 8y ago
Doesn't explain the Porsche tie with Toyota unless you're suggesting Porsche drivers are more like Toyota drivers than BMW.
- theluketaylor 8y ago
  porsche builds their cars for track work, so even hard driving around town is light load for them (maybe not the macan). Hard launches are among the toughest thing you can do to an ICE car. Most cars with launch control can do a few launches and then something overheats and the car refuses to do any more for a while. A car journalist tried to launch a PDK 911 until it failed. He got bored after 50 straight launches and stopped.
  - kenhwang 8y ago
    Well, boredom and to commemorate the 911's 50th birthday.
- diddid 8y ago
  I’m not saying it’s the only factor just a single factor that people tend to overlook. But I think Porsche has a higher percentage of car enthusiast in addition to a higher quality build process. So the owners will take better care of the car, won’t drive it in poor weather etc, where a BMW is often a daily driver. Again, not saying it’s the factor just a factor. Like I just saw something that was “Here are states with the worst drivers” but the data was based on speeding tickets etc. So to me they should have really said “Here are the states with the most enforcement”. Ok, maybe not related at all.

acroback 8y ago

God bless my Mazda 3 2012. I spent a total of $1200(wipers, tires, engine oil) in 100k miles and still gives me 39 mpg on highways. Love the car. My next Car is going to be either Japanese or a Korean.

sitkack 8y ago

This is always true, the mass produced thing is going to have manufacturing lines that are tuned. And Toyota or Chevy can't afford to have a recall on something they made 100k of . Bespoke luxury vehicles are nearly hand made, with all the errors that hand building entails. Wear a timex, drive a toyota, compute with a thinkpad, listen to a yamaha and process with a cuisanart.