8 ms·

Flutter on desktop, a real competitor to Electron

122 points by norbert515 8y ago

wpdev_63 8y ago
Flutter isn't a competitor to electron as you can't target web browsers with it. I tried Flutter over a year ago and found the instant reloading of code nice and has most of modern features but went back to native as the library support is still non-existent. The real competitor to flutter is kotlin cross-platform from jetbrains. Most android developers are already familiar with kotlin, unlike dart, and also has great tooling. I look forward to seeing which one wins mind share as they are well designed options.
- johnisgood 8y ago
  Incorrect. You can target web browsers with it. > Dart’s flexibility in compilation and execution doesn’t stop there. For example, Dart can be compiled into JavaScript so it can be executed by browsers. This allows code reuse between mobile apps and web apps. Developers have reported as high as 70% code reuse between their mobile and web apps. Dart can also be used on a server either by being compiled to native code, or by compiling to JavaScript and using it with node.js. Source: https://hackernoon.com/why-flutter-uses-dart-dd635a054ebf https://hackernoon.com/why-flutter-uses-dart-dd635a054ebf
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Dart can target web but Flutter doesn't yet have support for browsers.
- dragonfly02 8y ago
  It's not fully compatible with web yet but there is ongoing work to make it happen. Flutter itself is about to be officially released in two days and I am sure there will be more push to make it web compatible soon.
childintime 8y ago
I'll have to check it out, because this seems to be what I've been waiting for: access to Android and Windows eco-systems, reasonably small .exe sizes and excellent performance. The other things are just icing on the cake: best in class framework, hot-reloading, runs on IOS (until Apple gets irritated), development on Linux, and a more than decent language to write apps in.
matejmecka 8y ago
The biggest question is will companies start migrating to Flutter from Electron. Plus who will decide to use this in a market dominated by Electron?
- seandougall 8y ago
  [raises hand] If it can avoid a >100 MB hello world, I’m on board. That makes it worth learning a language I would never have heard otherwise.
  - shakna 8y ago
    If that's a serious suggestion then... * Dart/Flutter {iOS, Android} [0] * (Scheme|Lua|C)/IUP {Linux, Windows, macOS} [1] * (QML with JS)/QtQuick {Windows, Linux, macOS, UWP, Android, iOS...} [2] * (C++|Rust|Go|Python...)/Qt {Windows, Linux, macOS, UWP, Android, iOS...} [3] * (TCL|Ada|Haskell|Python...)/Tk {Windows, Linux, macOS} [4] * (TCL)/Hecl {Windows, Linux, macOS, Android} [5] * (Scheme|C|JS|Haskell...)/GTK+ {Windows, Linux, macOS, Android^} [6] * (C++|Python|Ruby|...)/WxWidgets {Windows, Linux, macOS, {Anywhere GTK or Qt run...}} [7] (^ May not be stable or officially supported) ... All the platforms listed are cross-platform. Some look native, some don't, but no Electron app does anyway. Most package to single binary, some need proper packaging. All are very simple to get started. Tk has the least features, but TCL is just a shell language, so getting started is ridiculously easy. However, Tk can do things like inject its frames into any running process's window. QT and GTK+ are the most powerful, which can confuse newcomers. But they're still simple to do simple things with. I've used all but Flutter in a professional environment (but evaluated it), sometimes as maintainer, sometimes building something new. They're all solid. Different drawbacks with all of them, but there's always tradeoffs in programming. For a beginner, I'd probably recommend QtQuick or WxWidgets. [0] https://flutter.io/ https://flutter.io/ [1] http://webserver2.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/ http://webserver2.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/ [2] http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qtquick-index.html http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qtquick-index.html [3] https://wiki.qt.io/Language_Bindings https://wiki.qt.io/Language_Bindings [4] https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/tk.htm https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/tk.htm [5] https://www.hecl.org/ https://www.hecl.org/ [6] https://www.gtk.org/ https://www.gtk.org/ [7] https://www.wxwidgets.org/ https://www.wxwidgets.org/
thrownaway954 8y ago
The road block for adoption will be Dart. Why they didn't just choose Typescript or go with native javascript is beyond me. No one uses Dart. It was probably the poorest design decision they could make.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- johnisgood 8y ago
  Perhaps people will pick it up. I would like to think that people will eventually stop religiously sticking to JavaScript. Right now, they are forced to use it because the alternatives are more or less worse. I would like to consider it a beginning of something better.
  - mixedCase 8y ago
    Then why not TypeScript, which is a more powerful language than Dart and has a much better ecosystem?
    - bsingh4 8y ago
      Dart has a sound type system. Why would someone voluntarily deal with TypeScript unless forced to by the browser environment?
      - mixedCase 8y ago
        Row polymorphism and algebraic data types if we want to talk about things Dart does not have, with an enormous ecosystem at your disposition. If we want to prioritize a sound type system, why then go for a language that is for the most part Java but with no ecosystem, instead of something like Reason/OCaml, Haskell, PureScript which absolutely blow Dart out of the water as languages; or even if your number one priority is targeting Java devs with something more palatable, why not Kotlin even? Why give artificial life to a language that was on its deathbed and brings absolutely nothing useful to the ecosystem yet will contribute to the amount of churn suffered in the industry?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wb14123 8y ago
I'm wondering why people don't write cross platform applications with Qt.
- chocolatkey 8y ago
  I think c++ (and qml to some extent) scares people vs. JavaScript, where you have thousands of libs for every situation to back you up
  - shakna 8y ago
    You can write it in Python is you're scared of C++. QML let's you inline JavaScript, or call it from a file. Qt comes with 5, 000 classes for every situation to back you up, before you need to go to the community. I think that a lot of developers are simply scared of it, without just cause. They believe rumours, without ever actually trying to use the thing. They don't evaluate first.
    - gautam1168 8y ago
      pyside and pyqt4 both take away a lot from the power of qt. Not worth it if you ask me.
- typon 8y ago
  Does Qt have the same features as Flutter? I'm thinking about an excellent IDE, hot reloading, ability to target mobile and desktop etc.
  - shakna 8y ago
    * Excellent IDE Yes. It's well-written C++. Any IDE can handle it, but the also have their own which gives you a few more things, like drag'n'drop design. * Hot reloading Depends. Old-school Qt? No. It's more powerful, but can't hot reload. New-school QML? Yes. But you are limited to QtQuick, which is only on-par with Electron's features. * Ability to target mobile and desktop, etc. Yes. Supported targets include: Windows, UWP, Linux, macOS, Andorid, iOS, watchOS, tvOS, QNX, and other embedded platforms.
dragonfly02 8y ago
I believe flutter will be the only thing that will be truly "write once, run everywhere" as it will be compatible with with mobile (iOS and Android), web, desktop (macOS, Linux, Windows).
garyclarke27 8y ago
Flutter for ios android web win mac sounds like the holy grail of cross platform development! Tempted to invest v significantly, one major concern though is the focus on Angular for web. IMHO Polymer would have been a much better choice, since most browsers now support web components custom elements natively, so Angular focus is a major turn-off for me.

122 points by norbert515 8y ago

Flutter isn't a competitor to electron as you can't target web browsers with it. I tried Flutter over a year ago and found the instant reloading of code nice and has most of modern features but went back to native as the library support is still non-existent. The real competitor to flutter is kotlin cross-platform from jetbrains. Most android developers are already familiar with kotlin, unlike dart, and also has great tooling. I look forward to seeing which one wins mind share as they are well designed options.

johnisgood 8y ago
Incorrect. You can target web browsers with it. > Dart’s flexibility in compilation and execution doesn’t stop there. For example, Dart can be compiled into JavaScript so it can be executed by browsers. This allows code reuse between mobile apps and web apps. Developers have reported as high as 70% code reuse between their mobile and web apps. Dart can also be used on a server either by being compiled to native code, or by compiling to JavaScript and using it with node.js. Source: https://hackernoon.com/why-flutter-uses-dart-dd635a054ebf https://hackernoon.com/why-flutter-uses-dart-dd635a054ebf
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Dart can target web but Flutter doesn't yet have support for browsers.
dragonfly02 8y ago
It's not fully compatible with web yet but there is ongoing work to make it happen. Flutter itself is about to be officially released in two days and I am sure there will be more push to make it web compatible soon.

childintime 8y ago

I'll have to check it out, because this seems to be what I've been waiting for: access to Android and Windows eco-systems, reasonably small .exe sizes and excellent performance. The other things are just icing on the cake: best in class framework, hot-reloading, runs on IOS (until Apple gets irritated), development on Linux, and a more than decent language to write apps in.

matejmecka 8y ago

The biggest question is will companies start migrating to Flutter from Electron. Plus who will decide to use this in a market dominated by Electron?

seandougall 8y ago
[raises hand] If it can avoid a >100 MB hello world, I’m on board. That makes it worth learning a language I would never have heard otherwise.
- shakna 8y ago
  If that's a serious suggestion then... * Dart/Flutter {iOS, Android} [0] * (Scheme|Lua|C)/IUP {Linux, Windows, macOS} [1] * (QML with JS)/QtQuick {Windows, Linux, macOS, UWP, Android, iOS...} [2] * (C++|Rust|Go|Python...)/Qt {Windows, Linux, macOS, UWP, Android, iOS...} [3] * (TCL|Ada|Haskell|Python...)/Tk {Windows, Linux, macOS} [4] * (TCL)/Hecl {Windows, Linux, macOS, Android} [5] * (Scheme|C|JS|Haskell...)/GTK+ {Windows, Linux, macOS, Android^} [6] * (C++|Python|Ruby|...)/WxWidgets {Windows, Linux, macOS, {Anywhere GTK or Qt run...}} [7] (^ May not be stable or officially supported) ... All the platforms listed are cross-platform. Some look native, some don't, but no Electron app does anyway. Most package to single binary, some need proper packaging. All are very simple to get started. Tk has the least features, but TCL is just a shell language, so getting started is ridiculously easy. However, Tk can do things like inject its frames into any running process's window. QT and GTK+ are the most powerful, which can confuse newcomers. But they're still simple to do simple things with. I've used all but Flutter in a professional environment (but evaluated it), sometimes as maintainer, sometimes building something new. They're all solid. Different drawbacks with all of them, but there's always tradeoffs in programming. For a beginner, I'd probably recommend QtQuick or WxWidgets. [0] https://flutter.io/ https://flutter.io/ [1] http://webserver2.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/ http://webserver2.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/ [2] http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qtquick-index.html http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qtquick-index.html [3] https://wiki.qt.io/Language_Bindings https://wiki.qt.io/Language_Bindings [4] https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/tk.htm https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/tk.htm [5] https://www.hecl.org/ https://www.hecl.org/ [6] https://www.gtk.org/ https://www.gtk.org/ [7] https://www.wxwidgets.org/ https://www.wxwidgets.org/

thrownaway954 8y ago

The road block for adoption will be Dart. Why they didn't just choose Typescript or go with native javascript is beyond me. No one uses Dart. It was probably the poorest design decision they could make.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
johnisgood 8y ago
Perhaps people will pick it up. I would like to think that people will eventually stop religiously sticking to JavaScript. Right now, they are forced to use it because the alternatives are more or less worse. I would like to consider it a beginning of something better.
- mixedCase 8y ago
  Then why not TypeScript, which is a more powerful language than Dart and has a much better ecosystem?
  - bsingh4 8y ago
    Dart has a sound type system. Why would someone voluntarily deal with TypeScript unless forced to by the browser environment?
    - mixedCase 8y ago
      Row polymorphism and algebraic data types if we want to talk about things Dart does not have, with an enormous ecosystem at your disposition. If we want to prioritize a sound type system, why then go for a language that is for the most part Java but with no ecosystem, instead of something like Reason/OCaml, Haskell, PureScript which absolutely blow Dart out of the water as languages; or even if your number one priority is targeting Java devs with something more palatable, why not Kotlin even? Why give artificial life to a language that was on its deathbed and brings absolutely nothing useful to the ecosystem yet will contribute to the amount of churn suffered in the industry?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

wb14123 8y ago

I'm wondering why people don't write cross platform applications with Qt.

chocolatkey 8y ago
I think c++ (and qml to some extent) scares people vs. JavaScript, where you have thousands of libs for every situation to back you up
- shakna 8y ago
  You can write it in Python is you're scared of C++. QML let's you inline JavaScript, or call it from a file. Qt comes with 5, 000 classes for every situation to back you up, before you need to go to the community. I think that a lot of developers are simply scared of it, without just cause. They believe rumours, without ever actually trying to use the thing. They don't evaluate first.
  - gautam1168 8y ago
    pyside and pyqt4 both take away a lot from the power of qt. Not worth it if you ask me.
typon 8y ago
Does Qt have the same features as Flutter? I'm thinking about an excellent IDE, hot reloading, ability to target mobile and desktop etc.
- shakna 8y ago
  * Excellent IDE Yes. It's well-written C++. Any IDE can handle it, but the also have their own which gives you a few more things, like drag'n'drop design. * Hot reloading Depends. Old-school Qt? No. It's more powerful, but can't hot reload. New-school QML? Yes. But you are limited to QtQuick, which is only on-par with Electron's features. * Ability to target mobile and desktop, etc. Yes. Supported targets include: Windows, UWP, Linux, macOS, Andorid, iOS, watchOS, tvOS, QNX, and other embedded platforms.

dragonfly02 8y ago

I believe flutter will be the only thing that will be truly "write once, run everywhere" as it will be compatible with with mobile (iOS and Android), web, desktop (macOS, Linux, Windows).

garyclarke27 8y ago

Flutter for ios android web win mac sounds like the holy grail of cross platform development! Tempted to invest v significantly, one major concern though is the focus on Angular for web. IMHO Polymer would have been a much better choice, since most browsers now support web components custom elements natively, so Angular focus is a major turn-off for me.