11 ms·
Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life
- artificial 9y agoFascinating, the subject orientation is what you see elsewhere with machine vision - it was a big part of F8 this last year. I don't really see a way out of surveillance besides legislation since processing power and storage increasingly becomes cheaper.
- liscovich 9y agoOriginal WSJ article: "Twelve Days in Xinjiang: How China’s Surveillance State Overwhelms Daily Life" https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chinas-surveillance-state-overwhelms-daily-life-1513700355 https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chi... If you don't have WSJ subscription, paste the title into FB's search bar, and open the link via search results to bypass the paywall.
- dang 9y agoThanks, we've changed the url to that from http://www.wsj.com/video/life-inside-chinas-total-surveillance-state/CE86DA19-D55D-4F12-AC6A-3B2A573492CF.html?mod=trending_now_video_1 http://www.wsj.com/video/life-inside-chinas-total-surveillan.... It's generally better to post a link to the host article. WSJ is an edge case, but paywalls with workarounds are ok (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and users almost always usually post workarounds in the thread.
- mnw21cam 9y agoAssuming "FB" means Facebook, what if one doesn't have a Facebook account?
- Deathmax 9y agoOr manually use FB's redirect: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chinas-surveillance-state-overwhelms-daily-life-1513700355 https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/...
- mnw21cam 9y agoNope - paywall still present.
- karpodiem 9y agoWorked for me, I use Facebook though (may not work if you do not have a Facebook account?)
- icebraining 9y agoWorked for me too, and I don't have an FB account. mnw21cam, maybe you're blocking the Referer?
- thg 9y agoIf you're browsing with Firefox, the "Bypass Paywalls" Add-on is really neat. No further workarounds necessary. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bypasspaywalls/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bypasspaywall...
- vixen99 9y agoPresumably publications like the WSJ know about these bypasses and tolerate them unlike the The UK Daily Telegraph which doesn't for its 'premium' articles. However how is using them on a regular basis not fraudulent?
- thg 9y agoIf I were a regular WSJ reader, I'd subscribe, but I'm only reading the occasional WSJ article that's linked here on HN. Having the Add-On bypass it is more convenient than using the FB redirect snipplet and that's about it. If the WSJ doesn't want any non-subscribers to read their articles, then it's on them not to provide exceptions (FB referrer). For me, it boils down to reading between 1-3 WSJ articles a month by bypassing the paywall or reading none at all if they don't allow me to, since I don't consider the consumption worth the price (which includes handing over data to a US corporation) I'd have to pay. That money is better spent on a local news outlet that provides me with news I consider more relevant to myself.
- AnonymousPlanet 9y agoWhat is even the point of posting a paywalled article to a forum like this? Anyone who puts content behind a login does not wish it to be linked in an open forum. Period. If the WSJ wants their articles shared and discussed, they should build and maintain their own HN behind that paywall and keep it there. Your suggestion of going via FB makes things even worse. Now there are two walls involved in keeping others out. Or am supposed to keep a plethora of logins at hand just to participate in an open community?
- jackyinger 9y agoThe same thing is happening in the US. The difference is that the authorities here use much more subtle methods so it doesn’t appear pervasive. It is known that use and abuse of stingrays is rife in our cities and gag orders allow even wider silent collection of data we give up willingly to tech companies because we can’t see what’s done with it.
- rqs 9y agoWell, at least you can protest about it. In China, collecting your bio data is more like a procedure than a choose. For example, I renewed my citizen ID card few weeks ago, and got my facial and fingerprint collected. Also, some companies like Alibaba are helping the data collection: https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/03/alipay-facial-recognition-payments/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/03/alipay-facial-recognitio... and http://www.solidot.org/story?sid=47235 http://www.solidot.org/story?sid=47235 (In Chinese) I believe all those data will be used to help tracking people.
- yadongwen 9y agoit's bad for humanity but seems like most countries capable of doing this are following this trend now. any possible way to avoid this path? i doubt. btw, your example is pretty weak. my facial features were collected many times in the last two weeks in US in airports and companies i visited
- Animats 9y agoIn the US, law enforcement is split among too many organizations to implement a Big Brother system competently. Every little police department has their own system, and private sector systems aren't integrated with government systems. Look at the mess in DC - their camera system was taken over by a botnet. Not even to use the camera data, just to mooch network resources. There's an business opportunity here. There's an outsourced surveillance industry, but it's small.[1] One of the big players has only 9,000 cameras. Nobody has scaled this yet. Amazon might. They've already convinced millions of people to put a microphone in every room, reporting to Amazon HQ. Now they're getting into cameras and door locks. Google, probably not. Their Nest unit makes stuff that looks good, but doesn't work well. [1] http://stealthmonitoring.com/ http://stealthmonitoring.com/
- jimmies 9y agoI think one of the few really, really good things we have left in the US is that I _feel_ that I am trusted to do the right thing. I was in Singapore, a rich, orderly state for an internship a couple of years ago. There were cameras everywhere: Cameras on the sidewalks, cameras on the staircases, cameras in residential apartments, cameras in the subway, cameras at the workplace. There were very few places I feel not watched. I have to hunt for them. This is very contrasted with the US, where mostly I feel that I have my privacy and trusted to do the right thing. That's a very powerful feeling. But that is going away with smartphone cameras and surveillance cameras. They are getting cheaper, and no one is here to be fighting against them. Maybe that's a one-way road, there is not much we can do about it. Maybe that's for the better, but somehow I feel life is much more boring that way.
- fellellor 9y agoIsn't it the same in UK? I read somewhere there 1 cctv camera for every 10 citizens in that country.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Steve44 9y agoI read recently that figure was done by extrapolating the cameras visible in one section of a street in London to the UK as a whole. I've had a look and can't find that particular link. > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10172298/One-surveillance-camera-for-every-11-people-in-Britain-says-CCTV-survey.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10172298/One-surveilla... > Britain has a CCTV camera for every 11 people, a security industry report disclosed, as privacy campaigners criticised the growth of the “surveillance state”. > The survey’s maximum estimate works out at one for every 11 people in the UK, although the BSIA said the most likely figure was 4.9 million cameras in total, or one for every 14 people. > “Because there is no single reliable source of data no number can ever be held as truly accurate however the middle of our range suggests that there are around five million cameras.” and also from 2008 :- > http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+many+cctv+cameras/2291167.html http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+... > The Claim : > "A CCTV camera for every 14 citizens." David Davis, resignation statement, 12 June 2008 > The basis comes from a survey of the number of CCTV cameras in two busy south London streets, Putney High Street and Upper Richmond Road. > The researchers sampled 211 "premises" - banks, estate agents, pubs, shops and office blocks - and found that 41 per cent had CCTV systems, with an average of 4.1 cameras per system. > By assuming this is "broadly representative" of CCTV coverage across the whole of London, the authors estimate that 41 per cent, or 102,910, of the 251,000 VAT-registered businesses registered in London would have a CCTV system. Multiply this by 4.1 and there would be 421,931 cameras. > Bingo - there's the claim, but we've got to it based on two London streets, multiplied out to reflect the whole of London, and then multiplied again to reflect the whole country. > When counting cameras, he reckons it's also important to look at what exactly they are monitoring. "Some may be in a private business such as a corner shop, some may be one camera outside a pub that isn't actually monitored, something like a building society may have more cameras 'back of house' which are not actually on the public," he said.
- autokill 9y agohttp://archive.is/pMV4U http://archive.is/pMV4U
- sigsergv 9y agolink without paywall https://t.co/EOOtSYkBRf https://t.co/EOOtSYkBRf
- kccqzy 9y agoI have a friend who’s born in Xinjiang and she told me this kind of control goes far beyond just surveillance, physical control, ID checks and whatnot. In a very Orwellian way, it also extends to control of the mind. Schools, government agencies, and local companies have to have their students and employees routinely recite propaganda about “ethnic unity” and relevant official policies and conduct routine tests to make sure these things are memorized. Big Brother isn’t just watching you, it’s also trying to sneak its way into your mind.
- zipwitch 9y agoAmerica is much better about this sort of thing. Aside from a few obvious holdover examples like the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem, the US doesn't bother with such ham-handed, last century techniques. It's much easier to just coerce the media and get the public to consume the propaganda as entertainment. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/21/entertainment/la-ca-military-movies-20110821 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/21/entertainment/la-ca-... https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/exclusive-documents-expose-direct-us-military-intelligence-influence-on-1-800-movies-and-tv-shows-36433107c307 https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/exclusive-documents-...
- xster 9y agoAnd the native culture is thriving. All tribal languages are taught at school. No child is being sent to resident schools and getting sexually abused. The native population is has lower rates of suicide, substance abuse, obesity, poverty etc. Sorry, I had to.
- mr_data 9y agoTypical. "I have a friend" comment. So many propagandist comments on HN lately with "I have a friend" or "I have a coworker".
- kccqzy 9y agoWell yeah I get it that the HN crowd tends to have a love for hard data, but still I think HN is still a human community that welcomes anecdotes and personal communications. HN is not trying to be a strange comment-based Wikipedia where everything must be verifiable and objective. Telling stories is one of the oldest ways human communities thrive. But you don't have to believe my story; you could probably satisfy your curiosity by closing this tab and go read featured articles on Wikipedia.
- l33tbro 9y agoThe idea of Bubba the local beat cop packet-sniffing my smartphone and arbitrarily detaining me "because encryption" is a mortifying thought. Hopefully it remains nothing more than a far-fetched concern here in the West, but I wouldn't count on it.
- pajop 9y agoif you're behind a paywall: http://archive.is/pMV4U http://archive.is/pMV4U
- softwarelimits 9y agoThe video is available here: https://youtu.be/OQ5LnY21Hgc https://youtu.be/OQ5LnY21Hgc
- thinkhard 9y agoI'd rather be watched by surveillance camera than killed by extremists. How about you? It is inevitable; before 911 there was almost no security check in airports. Boarding was not too much difference than shopping in Walmart. This is one kind of insurance: most time accident is not happening, but when it happens it can be deadly. Life consists of compromises. Some are unavoidable.
- SCHiM 9y agoHah! There's less people getting killed by extremists than people dying from tangling in their bed sheets (or something similar). Not only is it a a bad trade. Camera's and surveillance don't stop well planned terrorists attacks. At a certain 'level' of terrorism, or any combative action in enemy territory, you operate under the assumption that you'll get caught and/or killed. If you truly cared about the loss of life you'd be campaigning against the current speedlimit for cars, and the fact that there's no mandatory alcohol locks for starting your car.
- jeromegv 9y agoHow many people killed by extremists in the US last year? Are you suggesting that US should increase their security to the same level as China (and implement a police state) to avoid more extremists death?
- taobility 9y agoYou should talk to the relatives who killed by those terrorist. You wouldn't feel the pain as you still alive
- nate_meurer 9y agoYou should talk to the relatives of dissidents killed by the government. See how this game works once we start depending on emotional appeals?
- thinkhard 9y ago
- nicoolai 9y agoI went to Urumqi about 10 years ago. It was nothing like this. It was actually an amazing place, full of diverse culture and awesome people. In 2009, when these riots happened, I remember we lost complete contact with the factory there. The Chinese government simple cut all communication in and out of the region, till they had the situation under control.
- throwawaymanbot 9y agoWhen we see articles like this... we have to be cognizant of the similarities occurring in the west currently. then we must wonder why Democracy is faltering in the USA.
- dghughes 9y agoI couldn't read the linked story but I did see a video of this on a different news site. What I found chilling was the level of technology. Each camera has AI built into it, your gait is tracked, your gender is tracked, your relationships are tracked going back one week. The person being interviewed I don't know if he was proud of it or trying to calm fears by what he said. The point of the system he said is to gather as much data as possible on everyone so they can predict crime, very Minority Report-like stuff. So to calm everyone his point was we will know everything you do all the time in such detail we'll know your daily patterns. Lord help you if you are a spontaneous mood one day.
- justicezyx 9y agoDid you know how many people are killed each year in Xinjiang? Because of what western media called "understandable opposition from oppressed descendants of the CCP", where the killed are all just innocent people? OK tell me, what the hell the local government should do to stop the terrorism attack?!
- neaden 9y agoAllow more autonomy in traditionally autonomous regions. Allow the free practice of religion including fasting during ramadan: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/china-bans-ramadan-fasting-muslim-region-150618070016245.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/china-bans-ramadan-fas... Take more input from citizens who live there and allow them to have a stake in the governing proccess that includes future changes.
- jruthers 9y agoI'd really like to read more Chinese-from-China views on this kind of article. Although the content of the article scares me personally, it would be interesting to have more of a discourse about more plausible reasons why this kind of surveillance is "good" from a genuine different perspective. One mistake the Chinese govt makes is never explaining themselves in a plausible way so it always comes across as Orwellian. Further, because no Chinese national is supposed to acknowledge the govt power, most nationals can't comment on it without getting themselves or their family in serious trouble. I have a (non-Chinese-from-China) friend who works most of the year in China and he explained the surveillance state as "well, if you've got a nation of more than a billion people and a huge range of wealth levels and, culturally, you value stability of the nation more than individual liberty, yeah, you're going to go to extremes on security and surveillance. It's all about ensuring stability and adherence to 'normal' behavior. Yeah it's creepy but it's _safe_ if you stay in line." I'm not saying I agree with the exchange of individual liberty vs surveillance but it would be refreshing to read more plausible takes on the "China has it right" viewpoint.
- jhedwards 9y agoI am a non-Chinese who lived in China and I would talk about this subject with a retired businessman from Beijing who lived next door to me in Sunnyvale. His view was basically what you described: there are a ton of people in China and the vast majority of them were only recently raised out of abject poverty, and on top of that the cultural revolution had a dramatic impact on public education. So the feeling is that there is a massive potential for chaos and that the iron grip of the government prevents that chaos from emerging. I don't know how true that is, but it did feel pretty safe when I lived there, and there _is_ a history of massive riots in China which seems to validate the theory of potential chaos. At any rate, he thought that as China develops and education improves the need for the government to have an iron grip will be lessened and the country will gradually become more free. Time will tell I guess.
- avmich 9y ago> the feeling is that there is a massive potential for chaos and that the iron grip of the government prevents that chaos from emerging This is similar to how Russian government presents the situation in Russia, and lots of people getting the information from government channels tend to agree with that. The difference is that China is moving ahead economically much faster than Russia today. As soon as advancement stops, subsequent talks about maintaining stability are met with slowly growing scepticism. Stability is only good when it a stable advancement or if the state of affairs is perceived as good (i.e., after recent raising out of abject poverty). As soon as stability is preserving the undeserving status quo, it's not as good. This change of view may not necessarily happen soon after slowdown though.
- songco 9y agoI was born in Xinjiang and lived there for more than 20 years. My parents still live there. It's a complex thing and in my hometown, no one complain the surveillance generally.