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When companies centralized and controlled app downloads, they did it primarily to make more money. Now their greed ends in the loss of real human rights. When A

by rd108 9y ago

When companies centralized and controlled app downloads, they did it primarily to make more money. Now their greed ends in the loss of real human rights. When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution, and the effects on society in the U.S. and abroad will be continue to ripple for years to come. It's like Obama was fond of reminding tech CEO's when they'd start pontificating on leadership... “Government will never run the way Silicon Valley runs because, by definition, democracy is messy. This is a big, diverse country with a lot of interests and a lot of disparate points of view. And part of government’s job, by the way, is dealing with problems that nobody else wants to deal with. “Sometimes I talk to CEOs, they come in and they start telling me about leadership, and here’s how we do things. And I say, well, if all I was doing was making a widget or producing an app, and I didn’t have to worry about whether poor people could afford the widget, or I didn’t have to worry about whether the app had some unintended consequences … then I think those suggestions are terrific."

conanbatt 9y ago
> Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution, and the effects on society in the U.S. and abroad will be continue to ripple for years to come. How do you interpret that China, a pseudo-capitalist country, bans skype and its because of the greed and avarice of private capital. This is textbook china. It was before and there is no reason it won't be this way for decades to come.
- Mindwipe 9y ago
  Because if iOS didn't prohibit installation of apps from anywhere but it's app store then this would be much less problematic. But Apple does, because it decided at the start of the platform that being able to take a 30% cut and defend it's own weak services applications from competition was worth more than the inevitable human rights problems a closed app platform presents.
  - stanmancan 9y ago
    Clearly the ability to take a cut of all app sales was a huge part of that decision, but was far from the only one. Security and easy of use are also very important. My grandma can install apps on her tablet no problem. But telling her to go to {domain}.com => downloads => download the 64bit windows executable and then find the file and run it, is a totally different story. Not to mention how many people will just google the name of the app, click the first link, and look for any link that says download and click next, next, next until they've succesfully added a bunch of spyware and 7 more IE tool bars.
    - ynniv 9y ago
      The core problem with trusted computing is that users are never allowed to install their own root certificate. My grandmother should be able to install a root that someone she trusts controls, which will include but not be limited to the OS vendor.
      - dpark 9y ago
        How would that accomplish anything? Are you going to sign the latest Firefox for her yourself?
        vetinari 9y ago
        In the world of Linux distribution, they can have multiple independent repositories. When adding another one, you usually import their PGP key to establish trust. When you install Google Chrome on Linux, you will add another repository that will be responsible for further Google Chrome updates. In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. If Apple wanted, similar mechanism could be made for iOS too.
        salvar 9y ago
        > In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. Do you think non-technical users regard this as a positive or a negative?
- jMyles 9y ago
  > How do you interpret that China, a pseudo-capitalist country, bans skype and its because of the greed and avarice of private capital. I didn't understand it to be an explainer of China's actions, but of Apple's.
alentodorov 9y ago
But how would this be solved if they allowed side-loading but you’d have to go to a website that is mostly like behind a firewall.
cmelbye 9y ago
The problem in this case isn’t centralized App Stores. It’s software that relies on a centralized server. If Skype we’re still P2P, then maybe it could evade the Great Firewall a bit easier. But it’s not, and China will just ban the Skype servers and render the app useless, even if you’re able to side load it.
- Canada 9y ago
  P2P doesn't really help there. Hardly anyone gets a routable IP address so everyone needs some rendezvous service anyway.
fullshark 9y ago
> When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution, What makes you say this? I seriously don't follow.
adventured 9y ago
> When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution It sounds like you're not at all familiar with the prior 230 years of American history as it pertains to Capitalism and the free press. Just as one example era, see 1880 to 1930. The market economy in the US was very lightly regulated, today it's extremely regulated. There were hardly any restrictions on press ownership during that time. There were few means to know who owned or influenced which entities, including the newspapers. Literal direct bribery was legal in most regards politically. Today, the US is barely clinging to being a Capitalist nation. This is an era of innocence compared to when the US was a full-blown Capitalist nation. A better title now is mixed economy. Nearly all industry is extremely regulated. Taxation is extremely high compared to the first 150 years of US history. Government intervention into the economy is the highest it has ever been. At a time in which the US is the least Capitalistic it has been in its entire history, you're choosing to start blaming Capitalism for the weakness of the free press. You're missing a comically large error in the premise.
prewett 9y ago
Baloney. Pre-AppStore, you could only download a Windows binary version of Skype, and it was not the official Skype version. I didn't have Windows, but the download looked pretty sketchy. You can bet your last dollar that the Chinese government could listen in on your conversation. When Microsoft bought Skype, they de-P2P'ed it. You can bet all the dollars you wisely didn't bet earlier that a condition of Microsoft continuing to operate in China was that they enable the government to listen in. So now you just can't Skype at all. Doesn't have anything to do centralized app stores, and everything to do with a paranoid Chinese government.
- germainelol 9y ago
  I don't know if it's true but it was always said that the government could listen in on your Skype calls if you downloaded Skype in China.
techer 9y ago
It’s been a while since the founding of the USA. Read about Pulitzer and yellow journalism. Nothing new really! Just scaled up and ubiquitous now.
omarforgotpwd 9y ago
Centralized control has made things a lot more secure. The fact that centralization also makes government interference easier is definitely a big negative. However, you can always go compile the app from source and install it that way, or sideload the app onto your device on iOS. It's not 2009, there are official ways to do this from Apple including for free.
IanDrake 9y ago
On one hand you blame capitalism when corporations are just following government mandates. On the other hand you’d rather a different economic system, I presume, where the government has even more say, such as socialism. Please try to reconcile your conflicting opinions because they don’t make sense.
pdeuchler 9y ago
Crazy how Obama said that and then immediately did the bidding of those same CEOs. Almost like he was playing both sides or something.
coldtea 9y ago
>When companies centralized and controlled app downloads, they did it primarily to make more money. Now their greed ends in the loss of real human rights. Well, the Chinese get the right their chats to be surveilled by their own state (in their own platforms) - as opposed to being surveilled by the US (on Skype and such platforms). Which sounds like a win.
eighthnate 9y ago
> When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. The free press wasn't a pillar of government. When America was founded, the "free press" was pretty much propaganda outlets owned by and used by the wealthy to attack each other. One of our oldest newspapers ( NY Post ) was founded by Alexander Hamilton purely to attack Thomas Jefferson. https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/alexander-hamilton-attacks-thomas-jefferson-under-a-pseudonym-oct-20-1796-043776 https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/alexander-hamilton-at... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_newspapers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_newspapers And following that, we had decades of yellow journalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism The press was never gatekeepers of information. The free press was "fake news" straight from the get-go. Even before the founding of the US, during the colonial period, they were political propaganda tools. If you are interested, go read about what Benjamin Franklin's colonial printing history.

by rd108 9y ago

conanbatt 9y ago

> Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution, and the effects on society in the U.S. and abroad will be continue to ripple for years to come. How do you interpret that China, a pseudo-capitalist country, bans skype and its because of the greed and avarice of private capital. This is textbook china. It was before and there is no reason it won't be this way for decades to come.

Mindwipe 9y ago
Because if iOS didn't prohibit installation of apps from anywhere but it's app store then this would be much less problematic. But Apple does, because it decided at the start of the platform that being able to take a 30% cut and defend it's own weak services applications from competition was worth more than the inevitable human rights problems a closed app platform presents.
- stanmancan 9y ago
  Clearly the ability to take a cut of all app sales was a huge part of that decision, but was far from the only one. Security and easy of use are also very important. My grandma can install apps on her tablet no problem. But telling her to go to {domain}.com => downloads => download the 64bit windows executable and then find the file and run it, is a totally different story. Not to mention how many people will just google the name of the app, click the first link, and look for any link that says download and click next, next, next until they've succesfully added a bunch of spyware and 7 more IE tool bars.
  - ynniv 9y ago
    The core problem with trusted computing is that users are never allowed to install their own root certificate. My grandmother should be able to install a root that someone she trusts controls, which will include but not be limited to the OS vendor.
    - dpark 9y ago
      How would that accomplish anything? Are you going to sign the latest Firefox for her yourself?
      - vetinari 9y ago
        In the world of Linux distribution, they can have multiple independent repositories. When adding another one, you usually import their PGP key to establish trust. When you install Google Chrome on Linux, you will add another repository that will be responsible for further Google Chrome updates. In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. If Apple wanted, similar mechanism could be made for iOS too.
        salvar 9y ago
        > In the Android world, multiple app stores exist. There are stores by Amazon, Yandex, Baidu, etc. Do you think non-technical users regard this as a positive or a negative?
jMyles 9y ago
> How do you interpret that China, a pseudo-capitalist country, bans skype and its because of the greed and avarice of private capital. I didn't understand it to be an explainer of China's actions, but of Apple's.

alentodorov 9y ago

But how would this be solved if they allowed side-loading but you’d have to go to a website that is mostly like behind a firewall.

cmelbye 9y ago

The problem in this case isn’t centralized App Stores. It’s software that relies on a centralized server. If Skype we’re still P2P, then maybe it could evade the Great Firewall a bit easier. But it’s not, and China will just ban the Skype servers and render the app useless, even if you’re able to side load it.

Canada 9y ago
P2P doesn't really help there. Hardly anyone gets a routable IP address so everyone needs some rendezvous service anyway.

fullshark 9y ago

adventured 9y ago

> When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. Today, capitalism and naked avarice have broken the back of this key democratic institution It sounds like you're not at all familiar with the prior 230 years of American history as it pertains to Capitalism and the free press. Just as one example era, see 1880 to 1930. The market economy in the US was very lightly regulated, today it's extremely regulated. There were hardly any restrictions on press ownership during that time. There were few means to know who owned or influenced which entities, including the newspapers. Literal direct bribery was legal in most regards politically. Today, the US is barely clinging to being a Capitalist nation. This is an era of innocence compared to when the US was a full-blown Capitalist nation. A better title now is mixed economy. Nearly all industry is extremely regulated. Taxation is extremely high compared to the first 150 years of US history. Government intervention into the economy is the highest it has ever been. At a time in which the US is the least Capitalistic it has been in its entire history, you're choosing to start blaming Capitalism for the weakness of the free press. You're missing a comically large error in the premise.

prewett 9y ago

Baloney. Pre-AppStore, you could only download a Windows binary version of Skype, and it was not the official Skype version. I didn't have Windows, but the download looked pretty sketchy. You can bet your last dollar that the Chinese government could listen in on your conversation. When Microsoft bought Skype, they de-P2P'ed it. You can bet all the dollars you wisely didn't bet earlier that a condition of Microsoft continuing to operate in China was that they enable the government to listen in. So now you just can't Skype at all. Doesn't have anything to do centralized app stores, and everything to do with a paranoid Chinese government.

germainelol 9y ago
I don't know if it's true but it was always said that the government could listen in on your Skype calls if you downloaded Skype in China.

techer 9y ago

It’s been a while since the founding of the USA. Read about Pulitzer and yellow journalism. Nothing new really! Just scaled up and ubiquitous now.

omarforgotpwd 9y ago

Centralized control has made things a lot more secure. The fact that centralization also makes government interference easier is definitely a big negative. However, you can always go compile the app from source and install it that way, or sideload the app onto your device on iOS. It's not 2009, there are official ways to do this from Apple including for free.

IanDrake 9y ago

On one hand you blame capitalism when corporations are just following government mandates. On the other hand you’d rather a different economic system, I presume, where the government has even more say, such as socialism. Please try to reconcile your conflicting opinions because they don’t make sense.

pdeuchler 9y ago

Crazy how Obama said that and then immediately did the bidding of those same CEOs. Almost like he was playing both sides or something.

coldtea 9y ago

>When companies centralized and controlled app downloads, they did it primarily to make more money. Now their greed ends in the loss of real human rights. Well, the Chinese get the right their chats to be surveilled by their own state (in their own platforms) - as opposed to being surveilled by the US (on Skype and such platforms). Which sounds like a win.

eighthnate 9y ago

> When America was founded, the fourth pillar of government was the free press, i.e. the gatekeepers of information. The free press wasn't a pillar of government. When America was founded, the "free press" was pretty much propaganda outlets owned by and used by the wealthy to attack each other. One of our oldest newspapers ( NY Post ) was founded by Alexander Hamilton purely to attack Thomas Jefferson. https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/alexander-hamilton-attacks-thomas-jefferson-under-a-pseudonym-oct-20-1796-043776 https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/alexander-hamilton-at... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_newspapers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_newspapers And following that, we had decades of yellow journalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism The press was never gatekeepers of information. The free press was "fake news" straight from the get-go. Even before the founding of the US, during the colonial period, they were political propaganda tools. If you are interested, go read about what Benjamin Franklin's colonial printing history.