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Germany bans children's smartwatches
- hcurtiss 9y agoWhat an odd solution to the problem.
- baq 9y agoWhat's odd exactly?
- akhatri_aus 9y agoThe advise about 'destroying' watches you have is a bit odd too. Why not just return them or remove the listening in capability with a firmware update?
- detaro 9y agoI don't think a seller is going to take a return of a product they are not allowed to possess either, but is going to tell you to destroy it.
- gmueckl 9y agoThis is a legal thing: they decided that merely owning one of the affected devices is illegal. So the best way back to legality is to destroy the device and keep a proof of its destruction. Nice and tidy. A firmware based fix alone does not make the device easily distinguishable from one without it and the fix is not permanent, making it possible to revert the device into its illegal state.
- eckza 9y agoThere’s the tactical solution, and the long-term solution. The long-term solution is to regulate IoT devices. When kids’ location data is unsecured and easily accessible, the tactical solution is to just fucking get rid of them. Hitting cheap plastic with a brick is 100% more effective than waiting for legislation to pass and for device manufacturers to take action.
- detaro 9y agoThey are not banned for being insecure IoT devices, they are banned for being hidden listening devices. the IoT angle is something that's just in the BBC article and the statements of their experts, not in the ban notice.
- wccrawford 9y agoEspecially as they don't seem to have banned cell phones? It's just weird.
- Xylakant 9y agoCell phones don't generally support for non-present parties to enable listening in as a feature and if they did, they'd be banned under that regulation as well.
- gregmac 9y agoWhat? Yes they do. In fact, that's the original purpose of the "phone" part. I spent 5 seconds searching and found dozens of apps that allow you to remotely enable the microphone on a cell phone (granted, you have to install the app first, though that can also be done remotely).
- Xylakant 9y agoThe original purpose of my cell phone is that a present party can either actively initiate or accept a call, allowing a remote party to hear their words. None of these actions is hidden or disguised or can usually be enabled without my consent. Installing a software that would allow a non-present party to initiate a hidden listening connection would be illegal. Yes, such apps are available, just as the smart watches now banned were available. Note that devices that are obviously and primarily made for recording or transmission are not affected, microphones, video cameras etc. are not illegal.
- manmal 9y agoIMO the only one that works. If you start banning the sale of only certain brands or models, people will just get theirs from Gearbest or whatever.
- Xylakant 9y agoThe ban is based on a german regulation that outlaws devices with a hidden listening/recording functionality. The fact that the devices are often insecure and allow arbitrary persons to listen in is a secondary issue, the primary issue is that the children (and people around the children) cannot determine that the device has a recording/transmitting function and even if they know cannot determine if the device is currently transmitting. The rights of the persons around the children exist and need to be enforced, so the devices in their current form are illegal to sell or to own. Seems not so odd to me.
- hcurtiss 9y agoIt seems to me they could simply outlaw the objectionable functionality. The article gives me the impression they outlawed the entire category.
- Xylakant 9y agoThe article is wrong on that account. Children smartwatches are in general allowed, just not models that have monitoring capabilities. GPS tracking for example would be legal.
- cortesoft 9y agoThats actually what they did, the article is a bit misleading.
- detaro 9y agoThat functionality is outlawed, and the official statement explicitly only talks about watches having it. The article pulls all kinds of "connected devices" concerns into it that don't apply to the specific decision.
- detaro 9y agoJust to clarify, since this article just talks about smartwatches in general: The issue are watches that allow someone to remotely listen in, not all variations of smart watches for kids. They are banned for that ability, not for general concerns about IoT security. Hidden listening devices (devices with listening capability that are disguised as other harmless items) are illegal to possess or sell in Germany under existing law. The regulatory agency for this just made a press release pointing out this specific device category and that they have taken action against sellers. German press release: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilungen/DE/2017/17112017_Verbraucherschutz.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Pressemitteilung...
- rightos 9y agoCouldn't this simply be done in after market installable software on a general purpose smart watch?
- Xylakant 9y agoIt could, but that software would turn the watch into a device that's illegal to own.
- Arnt 9y agoYou cannot sell an illegal device and tell your your customers (nudge nudge wink wink) to install an upgrade to comply with the law. If you sell a legal device, then you cannot offer an upgrade to make it illegal.
- Xylakant 9y agoMore importantly, requiring a software upgrade to enable that functionality would make it obvious that this is indeed of questionable legality and limit the market. Many people buying these watches (or the children dolls affected by the last round of bans) are not aware that these are in fact hidden spying devices.
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- albertgoeswoof 9y agoThe market is not self regulating here. Most parents cannot know or understand the security issues behind these devices, and are unable to make an informed decision on the risks. In that respect, it makes total sense to put a blanket ban on these until regulations can put put in place that only allow the sale of devices that respect privacy. At the end of the day if you really want a smartwatch on your child you can just buy one anyway.
- dvdhnt 9y ago> The market is not self regulating here. The market is rarely self regulating here in the U.S., either, assuming you’re referring to people making decisions with their dollars. Rather, the market is driven by a combination of advertising, media coverage, speculative investing, and established big interests. We as a consumerist culture enjoy indulging in the illusion that we are making our own purchase decisions. The market is more like a game of hungry hungry hippos. Yes, the balls move in all sorts of directions at many different speeds, and while they appear to be doing so in response to collisions with one another, their propulsion is a result of the hippos chasing them, chomping at them, and generally moving the board with the force of their jaws coming down. Examples of this include diamond engagement rings, the growing size of single family homes, sugar’s infiltration of our diet, tax havens, and $1k+ phones. Disclaimer: I apologize for hijacking your comment. Also, I understand the need for HN to ignore my comment or intensely downvote it; I know what I’m doing and saying as I post this. Cheers. Edit: spelling
- PatientTrades 9y agoOn one hand it is a good decision by Germany, but on the other hand its essentially telling parents that the government knows more about what your kids should and shouldn't wear than you do. I think a better approach would have been to raise awareness through a PSA about the dangers of children wearing these devices instead of an outright ban.
- titzer 9y agoProblem is, it's like vaccination (network effect). One kid with a hidden listening device could be in the vicinity of other kids whom it overhears, whose parents did not consent.
- PatientTrades 9y ago> One kid with a hidden listening device could be in the vicinity of other kids whom it overhears, whose parents did not consent. This ban doesn't solve that problem though. A child could wear an adult smartwatch that has a listening capability.
- detaro 9y agoWhich are just as illegal. The "ban" here is just the regulatory agency clarifying/informing the public that these products have been sold but are not legal to possess under existing laws in Germany.
- Xylakant 9y agoThat would be illegal (it's also generally not a feature on adult smart watches to have someone else quietly activate the microphone and listen in)
- tmrmn 9y agoPSAs are not really a thing in Germany
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- rhema 9y ago> "According to our research, parents' watches are also used to listen to teachers in the classroom." I wonder why they want to ban them outright instead of not allowing them in schools. It's also not clear from the article if they are banning particular, poorly secured smart watches, or all smart watches for kids altogether. The former seems more reasonable.
- germanier 9y agoGerman law prohibits "transmitting equipment which, by its form, purports to be another object or is disguised under an object of daily use and, due to such circumstances, is particularly suitable and intended for intercepting the non-publicly spoken words of another person without their detection" (§ 90 TKG). This was the basis for this statement by the regulator and explains why it was not restricted to certain uses. It was not based on insecurity of those devices. Even if they were perfectly secure that would not change anything.
- donatj 9y agoIt's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities, so if the problem is that "a watch looks like something that can't record" all smart watches should be banned by that logic. I don't feel like that actually applies here, but if it does it should also apply to the entire smartwatch category.
- 2112wawa 9y agoI didn't know that until now.
- germanier 9y agoThe devices this is about allow to listen in remotely. I am pretty sure that even many of the wearers (children) don't know that. At least some of those devices don't look like a smartwatch on first glance either, e.g. http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatch-gps-smart-watch-uhr-e1489949608512.jpg http://www.eltern-zeit.de/wp-content/uploads/lokato-kidswatc...
- curun1r 9y ago> It's pretty well known though in this day and age that smart watches can have recording capabilities This isn't true for hybrid smartwatches and fitness trackers. Those devices don't have listening devices and require tethered cell phones for internet communication, which already enables GPS tracking. It'll be interesting to see if this has been written in such a way as to exclude those or lump them in with the devices being targeted.
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- creep 9y agoThis may be an unpopular opinion, but I agree with the decision. Perhaps this will push the producers of such devices to up their privacy game, and in the future there should be security audits before allowing them back on the market. Regulation of production would be more difficult and more liable to error than if a producer were forced to prove itself reliable and trustworthy before being allowed to sell products to children. For me as well this is an issue of high concern. Many parents blindly put faith in technology in their children's hands (especially in this case, where the smartwatches are marketed as a safety feature), but this may now encourage parents to be more mindful as to such decisions. In our society, we have a ravenous competition for who can grab children's attention and keep it. Perhaps if the competitors are willing to prove they have products that will actually improve a child's well-being, this game wouldn't be as odd as it seems to me now. edit: I see now that this is only a ban on smartwatches with recording/audio capability. This makes my point somewhat irrelevant.
- ijuhzgtfddd 9y agoStarting an argument with "this may be an unpopular opinion" to make your argument seem controversial, doesn't actually make it controversial. Same goes for "I may get downvoted for this"
- sundvor 9y agoI agree wholeheartedly. If not only for the fact that the data was transmitted and stored without any encryption.
- Odenwaelder 9y agoOr, parent should put more trust in the world and their child. You don’t need to know what your kid does at all times.
- creep 9y agoThat is also a good option. GPS trackers on children do not solve any inherent problem. Teach the child how to be responsible, allow the child to prove themselves responsible and trustworthy, and there is little to worry about.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y agoGPS trackers for kids should be banned altogether. At best they're for helicopter parents, at worst they are the favourite tool of the abuser. A healthy upbringing requires trust.
- bdamm 9y agoNot everyone has the privilege of a healthy upbringing but all parents want some tools to know where their children are. (Corollary: Not all parents can provide a healthy upbringing but still want to know where their children are.)
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- Xylakant 9y agoI actually want to trust my kid not to commit royally stupid acts. I have no desire to know it’s exact location. For most cases and most accidents I’ll be way to far away to affect the outcome. Think: ok, kid’s in the park, safe. Well, climbed a tree, fell down. How’s that GPS tracker helping to avoid that? So I’d prefer the kid to know I’m not tracking every step and won’t be round the corner to catch every fall. My parents trusted me not to fuck up royally and I’m still alive, albeit with some permanent scars. I’ll pass that on.
- ggg9990 9y agoYou don't yet have a kid and your perspective on all of these things really changes when you do.
- Xylakant 9y agoI actually do have kids. I’ve been thinking long and hard about that. A lot of things try to sell perfect safety from the first day, smart mattresses that measure breathing, diapers or socks that measure pulse and oxygen saturation, gps trackers, name it. I admit that we all want our kids to be perfectly safe and it’s very hard to acknowledge that perfectly safe is only possible by packing the kid in a foam container and placing the container in a padded safe. As much as I sometimes would like to do that, that’s obviously not going to fly. So yes, it’s hard and it’s worrying from day one, but part of being a parent it coming to terms with this. Things will mostly be alright. I survived stupid things - and lord, I’ve done things that could have killed me - chances are my kids will survive as well. Statistics are on my side: Most kids survive to adulthood without permanent damage.
- samaritan17 9y agoI know that my voice will be in a minority, but I would absolutely forbid the use of smart devices for children under 14 years old.
- alayne 9y agoDo have you have a reason for that?
- samaritan17 9y agoThere are a lot of studies that show that the phone has a negative impact on the development of the child. You can google: why smartphones are bad for kids site:*.edu But even without all of this researches, I see a difference between children whose parents do not control access and those who have control.
- dleslie 9y agoSpeaking as someone of similar mind, but who has children, it's rather challenging to accomplish when your child's friends and peers are all equipped with such devices _and_ the teachers assume that they are available. It's hard enough on your children to be the odd one out, it's harder still when the teachers are assuming that students are equipped with immediate access to the internet and productivity software. I wonder what the future is going to look like when analog methods of communication have been eschewed for several generations. Imagine how vulnerable we will be to a massive Carrington event when most of the population is barely capable of (or incapable of) multiplication and division. Antique solar-powered calculators will be back in vogue!
- freeflight 9y ago> it's rather challenging to accomplish when your child's friends and peers are all equipped with such devices _and_ the teachers assume that they are available. Especially that last part is increasingly becoming an issue. While Germany bans "smartwatches for children", we Germans don't bat an eye about introducing expensive and delicate Apple iDevices as learning tools in schools. On one hand that's cool on the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of a publicly funded education system funneling kids and young adults into the closed garden of Apple and all of it is paid for by tax-payer money. There have already been cases where parents were told that their kids had to change classes if they are not willing to buy a 500€ Apple tablet (+200€ for insurance and a case) [0]. I can only imagine how this plays out down the line; separated education based on the financial situation of parents. [0] https://www.abendblatt.de/region/stormarn/article207832695/Schueler-muessen-ein-iPad-kaufen-oder-die-Klasse-wechseln.html https://www.abendblatt.de/region/stormarn/article207832695/S...
- herf 9y agoIf your young child gets lost, why is a watch that reports GPS once an hour a bad thing? This is very different than spying on a teacher or recording audio.
- Radle 9y agoYou could just give your kid a gps device. Your children do have a right for privacy, you can't simply spy on them without their knowledge. Also if your kid tells you it is going to play with their friends. You are not only spying on your own child but on other people children. That's clearly illegal, since the other childs can't know your kid wears a GPS spying device.
- herf 9y agoYoung kids (who should rarely be own their own) are different than teenagers.
- Xylakant 9y agoIn what regard? That they have no right of privacy? That people around them (teachers, other parents, ...) have no reasonable expectation of not being monitored? Should I now treat every four-year old as a walking covert listening device? That six-year olds cannot be trusted to obey rules and recognize limits? And if the kid is so young it should absolutely not be on it’s own, then parents should be around and there’s no need for a monitoring device.
- herf 9y agoOnce an hour GPS (as I suggested) is not the same as "privacy", and yes if the adults trusted with care of a six year old take them somewhere unexpected for a long time, the parents should be able to find out. You could claim this is a slippery slope that leads to more kinds of tracking (and this may be true), but I am saying that very limited tracking can be a net positive.
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- xxsyys 9y agoThe report from the original findings: https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/watchout-rapport-october-2017.pdf https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/wat...
- tritium 9y agoThe ban puts manufacturers on notice, but in reality, devices are becoming so ambiguously advanced from a technical perspective, that "smart" is not an adequate adjective to describe all that myriad use-cases and features that represent a hazard to any naive user (whether they are children or not). Such a premise is also inadequate to address the reality that an adult parent or guardian might let their child handle sufficiently advanced devices, unwittingly harming their children and themselves by failing to understand the product they employ. What about placing a child in a "smart" car? How do you anticipate protecting the safety and privacy of anyone under such circumstances?
- baxtr 9y agoApart from the privacy issues: my niece got a “smartwatch” recently at the age of 5 with many games installed on it. She was instantly addicted to it. After she was nearly ran over by a car because she looked at the thing instead of left/right at a street her parents got rid of that thing. They said it was straight out of hell...
- AckSyn 9y agoThe only kind of "smart" watch I'm going to be giving a kid of mine is one where they can only view the time, in both analog (primary) and digital.
- psergeant 9y agoI had a watch with Tetris on it about 25 years ago. My wife reads while walking(!). I don’t think this is a new technology problem
- briandear 9y agoSimple question: why does the government need to ban this? Can’t people make their own decisions? We have given government too much power. They ought not be our mommies.
- germanier 9y agoHow do I go about making my own decision? I do not have the power to stop random children next to me from wearing such devices.
- sib 9y agoYou also don't have the power to stop random teenagers or adults next to you from wearing such devices either, so that doesn't explain this decision.
- germanier 9y agoRandom teenagers and random adults are banned from wearing such devices as well under this law (they are even banned from possessing such devices at all).
- bdcravens 9y agoThere's a long list of items that are age restricted or age regulated (like school). How long does that list have to be for the mommy-state to kick in?
- ricardobeat 9y agoWhy are hard drugs, automatic machine guns and explosive chemicals outlawed? Can't people make their own decisions? The role of the state in a democracy is to manifest the will of the people - in this case there is a general desire for privacy, which precludes selling covert listening devices.
- blattimwind 9y ago> We have given government too much power. They ought not be our mommies. Does this government represent you? I assume it does not. So neither did you elect this government nor does it represent you, you did not lend it any power - this makes both "we" and "They ought not be our" rather interesting choices of words.
- whatyoucantsay 9y agoAs frustrating as their rigid concerns about privacy have been, one day we may all be thanking the Germans for their vigour in resisting the inevitable.
- meshr 9y agoYou should read the title as “Germany bans smart children” There is the same ban in Russia. Where can I find full list of countries with such idiotic bans? What about UK or USA? As mentioned above this ban can’t stop people with bad-will but make the problems for all the other people for their taxes. I can’t understand how a reasonable man can support such ban. What is the penalty for using banned smartdevices in Germany?
- namibj 9y agoPenalty up to 25k EUR from the BundesNetzAgentur, up to 2 years jail, or up to 1 year if just by neglect. Also it is just that these devices classify as spy-bugs aka covert listening devices, which are for good reason illegal to posess. Also, you really want to get rid of the thing.
- meshr 9y agoThank you. There is no good reason to ban progressive devices that can record true information unless you want to protect cheaters or you want to gain from post-truth reality or you want to teach children to lie/to be irresponsible or you are threatened with progress and want to revert everything back. It doesn’t work in long term. “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Franklin
- germanier 9y agoThe last two times we systematically recorded true information in Germany didn't turn out too well.
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