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Noam Chomsky Joins Faculty at University of Arizona
- otalp 9y agoHe's 88, still mentally very sharp and probably moved there for the weather(aside from the great department filled with old students). His work ethic is incredible, he spends 5 hours a day responding to emails from the public- I've received a detailed response every time I've sent one. The amount of time he spends engaging with even terribly misinformed(but well meaning) people is truly astounding, and unparalleled amongst public figures as far as I can tell. Here's an example(https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/6tz1xp/what_do_you_guys_think_about_ncs_argument_here/ https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/6tz1xp/what_do_you...) of some random kid badgering Chomsky with emails, and he still takes the time out to respond to every one of his questions, even though he gets more than a hundred mails a day.
- cooper12 9y agoHoly shit that link you shared was so frustrating to read. To think of all the productive things a great intellectual like Chomsky could be doing with his time. Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). He even hints at OP's "intentional ignorance" many times too... What a patient soul to debate someone whose entire education on race issues was some /pol/ infographic and right-wing blogs. OP could have taken some time to read some pre-existing literature, to learn the opposing side's arguments and especially when corresponding with an academic, to read their prior writing. Instead we have this..... the state of public discourse on the web 2.0.
- BuckRogers 9y agoThat's why whenever I speak to someone and they have a strong opinion I like to ask them how many books they've read on that subject. It's almost always zero. You can pretty much instantly discard anyone like that as it's a decent baseline litmus test. If you really cared about something, you would read at least one if not multiple books on the subject. Anything less is just laziness and someone who wants to get an endorphin rush from anger or other emotions. What you described is a lot better (read some pre-existing literature, to learn the opposing side's arguments and especially when corresponding with an academic, to read their prior writing). But usually even bad books are going to blow a DuckDuckGo search out of the water on quality. Especially for those who aren't astute enough to identify good and bad information.
- lqdc13 9y agoI've found that the book medium invites for a lot of opinions from an author and usually selective references to prove some point. Sort of the same reason that when you read scientific papers, you don't want to just read those written by a single lab. When I want to find out how something works I usually read a meta analysis or a review in a highly rated journal in the field. That way you get to see everyone's opinions and arguments on the subject. They are usually written to be more or less accessible for people not in the field.
- cardiffspaceman 9y agoI think it pays to read long-form book reviews about a book if one is concerned that the book has the sort of flaws you mention. I read "From Bauhaus to Our House," a book by Tom Wolfe on modern architecture, and then I went to the local university library and looked up reviews about it. I found many pointers to follow, of which only a few could be followed up that day. Plus in that case I could have researched the various architects mentioned in the book.
- nindalf 9y agoI've made my mind about Nazism, because it strikes me as an abominable philosophy. I haven't read any books about it though. Would you dismiss anything I said about it until I read Mein Kampf? Most people have only read a handful of books. If they were limited to expressing their views on those topics, there wouldn't be very much said about anything in society. I'm not sure society would benefit from that.
- serf 9y ago>I've made my mind about Nazism, because it strikes me as an abominable philosophy. I haven't read any books about it though. Would you dismiss anything I said about it until I read Mein Kampf? I think that you're using the theme of nazism as a way to make an opinion from a protected standpoint -- it's difficult to refute what you say without sounding sympathetic to nazis. But i'll say it anyway : I think you, and anyone else in the same boat, hold less authority on a topic without being well-versed on said topic. It's really that simple for me. Don't stop speaking to or throw out the opinions of folks uneducated on a topic, just weigh them appropriately along with the expert opinions. "Making up your mind" without educating yourself on the topic is dangerous, no matter which side you start leaning towards. I'm not telling you to go pick up 'Mein Kampf' -- not by a long shot -- but to condemn all books on the topic is frighteningly naive as a societal habit. It propagates a certain kind of sneaky "head-in-the-sand" behavior that may lead to even more strife in our world, and prevents the great historic feedback-loop of the knowledge of our past preventing historical repetitions of our worst atrocities.
- thethirdone 9y ago> Instead he generously chose to engage someone who had already made their conclusion and just wanted to "debate" without actually ceding to any points (take a shot any time OP says "liberal" or "PC"). Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. In many places, he does not respond to the probing questions asked of him at all (this is assuming the poster didn't add them in afterwards) instead opting to insult the poster. Poster: 1: By what mechanism do white supremacist elements impose American black culture on the American black community today? 2: For example, how is white supremacy responsible for single-parent families in the American black community? Allegedly single-parent rates have skyrocketed since the Civil Rights Movement. Chomsky: Racism is quite extreme today, and by many measures increasing. I don’t know what cocoon you live in. Perhaps you are completely unfamiliar with racism and its impact, in particular, the extreme racism experienced constantly by African-Americans. If so, I would suggest that you learn something about the world, and then you will understand the mechanisms very well. If you don’t want to have direct experience – which is not that hard –then at least look at the literature. Again, try following your own logic. It’s not genes, so it is circumstances. Do you perceive any circumstances beyond the extreme white racism that it takes real effort to be oblivious to? > He even hints at OP's "intentional ignorance" many times too. Hinting at ignorance is not helpful unless you show a path away from ignorance. Saying that something is obvious or trivial (as Mathematicians say) is not helpful. If it is truly obvious, just provide evidence. Now this is not to criticize Chomsky, he is still replying rather than remaining silent. And with his limited time, it doesn't necessarily make sense for him to give a solid argument in that case, but his argument in that link wasn't convincing.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- geezerjay 9y ago> Chomsky was not prepared to cede any points either. That was patently clear from the thread. His followers also showed a complete lack of intellectual honesty, by trying to avoid any of the points made in the thread and instead trying to dismiss with paternalistic non-sequiturs such as "Why should Chomsky waste time shoring up your self-imposed ignorance?" When a cult-like following forms, they do behave like a cult.
- jancsika 9y agoMost people do stuff like this to sharpen their teeth. There's a great recording on Youtube of a biology grad student debating Kent Hovind on the broad subject of evolution. Even though Hovind is essentially a confidence man, the conversation is enlightening nonetheless because the grad student knows his shit and gives some surprising lucid explanations that I haven't heard in other general audience discussions of evolution. Also, most people rely on a kind of "smell test" to keep from engaging with certain types of arguments. That can quickly create a moral hazard where the person being avoided misrepresents people's reluctance to engage as proof that he/she is a noble dissident with the courage to speak the truth. When someone like Chomsky, Ken Miller, Glenn Greenwald, or another intellectual engages directly with such people it pushes them into a corner where they either have to deliver the goods, change the subject, or commit a fallacy. In a debate, Greenwald forced one of the former NSA directors into such a situation when the response was, "Collect everything doesn't really mean collect everything." Trusting nature of most people being what it is, these forced errors have value.
- rhaps0dy 9y ago>His work ethic is incredible >he spends 5 hours a day responding to emails from the public Since I read Deep Work, I think these phrases contradict each other. You don't do original, interesting work when replying emails.
- chrisbennet 9y agowork eth·ic, noun, the principle that hard work is intrinsically virtuous or worthy of reward. (I didn't down vote you)
- rhaps0dy 9y agoI see. That's not quite the definition I was using in my head. According to that, if the emails are very well thought-out and written, it _is_ still hard work... I assumed that, for a work ethic, it had to be as useful as possible too. Oh well, thanks for correcting my mistake.
- abiox 9y ago> I assumed that, for a work ethic, it had to be as useful as possible too. do you mean to suggest that chomsky replying to these sorts of emails isn't all that useful?
- shoo 9y agothere can be value in unoriginal boring work
- jordigh 9y ago> he spends 5 hours a day responding to emails from the public rms, another MIT "affiliate", is like this too, although many of his replies are brief. Whenever you see him cracking open his laptop while he's sitting on a panel waiting for his turn to speak, he's almost surely answering email. Here are pictures of him answering email around the world: https://rms.sexy/ https://rms.sexy/ I call this one, "The Birth of Emacs": http://stallman.org/photos/rms-working/pages/13.html http://stallman.org/photos/rms-working/pages/13.html
- Kagerjay 9y agoI think this reddit comment in here sums up my thoughts on reading that random kid post "Dear mr. chomsky i realize you've been an MIT professor for 60 years. you've made significant contributions to many fields of studies including linguistics, history, computer science, and philosophy and you've debated with towering figures such as Michel Foucault, Hannah Arendt, Jean Piaget, etc... now can you please allow me to condescend to you while i quote Breitbart news about blacks?"
- clumsysmurf 9y agoFor anyone interested to read on the subject of "misguided intellectual egalitarianism": "The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYCDVHH https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYCDVHH Of course, there are some older well known books touching on this like Hofstadter, etc.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- fatjokes 9y agoHeh, reading his sharp responses you forget his age. Then you see him use dated terms like 'Orientals' and remember :).
- abalone 9y agoYou misunderstand. He used the term in the context of referring to 19th century racists. Full quote: "In the 19th century, the US had emigration officials helping drive the native population off their lands, and immigration officials in Europe trying to bring in white settlers to replace them. White. Orientals were entirely excluded."
- fatjokes 9y agoIt is in context, but it's not like he's directly quoting something, so I don't think I misunderstood. E.g., I don't refer to African Americans with the N-word when I'm discussing slavery. In any case, I don't think anyone is offended by his use of the term here. In fact, AFAIK, it's not even considered that offensive---just a bit dated. I was just making an observation. Not accusing Chomsky of racism or anything.
- sn9 9y agoIt's not unusual to use "Negros" when referring to African-Americans in discussions of the Jim Crow era or slavery. That might be a more fitting analogy than slurs.
- microcolonel 9y agoI don't know how mentally sharp you get to be called after endorsing Hugo Chavez despite a history of similar politicians with similar policies plunging otherwise strong countries into eternal, unhealing chaos. I know he has lots of clout, and tremendous work ethic, but I really wouldn't say he's very sharp. If he is sharp, he doesn't seem all that wise; and if he is wise, he would be very cruel.
- mempko 9y agoIdeology much?
- marmaduke 9y agoIt'd be interesting to see those emails publishing as a archive to search through though he's probably used them as fodder for his books.
- klarrimore 9y agoAs a UofA grad I can tell you the hippies down there are going to go absolutely apeshit. The university is half Rob Gronkowski and half Cesar Chavez. The Gronks all leave after school but the Cesar's all stick around the university and think, act, and look like Noam. He'll fit right in.
- Hasknewbie 9y ago>> and think, act, and look like Noam So they are low-key, patient, and make thorough, very detailed responses when debating?
- galacticpony2 9y agoIf you disregard his halo of authority for a moment, you'll find that most of what he says is usually very laboriously articulated whataboutery. It is "thorough and detailed", but that doesn't make it convincing.
- klarrimore 9y agoI didn't say anything negative about him or his debating style. I'm just saying I'm not so surprised he chose UofA. Tons of east coast aging hippies fall in love with the desert, get a mansion in the foothills, then only come down into the city for the university dressed like they're on a fucking safari.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoChomsky is a great critic of social issues like imperialism, manufactured consent, and state capitalism. However he has been proved devastatingly wrong about Venezuela and as of today won't admit the problems with state socialism. I hope his new students realize this.
- Crye 9y agoI'm not sure what you're referencing, but Chomsky has typically not been aligned with state socialism. I think typically it's viewed as another structure which uses it's position to maintain power.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agohttps://youtu.be/HHTe2Pn7ACg https://youtu.be/HHTe2Pn7ACg He praises the Venezuela's state socialist policies, but manages to blame the problems on private capital.
- thomasahle 9y agoThat video has frustratingly little information. Except for the hosts rage and short quotes from a supposed conversation with Chomsky; the only actual study mentioned is discarded immediately on basis of its author having advised some movie on the topic that he's an expert on.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoJust Google Chomsky Chavez or Venezuela. I've heard him give plenty of interviews where he talks about how great Chavez is. Sorry I had just provided the top search result.
- gt_ 9y agoI have heard these too and that is a misrepresentation of his statements. He does not say Chavez is great. He makes specific and nuanced arguments about value exemplified in some things Chavez did. This probably didn't need saying, but what an obnoxious generalization to make.
- BjoernKW 9y agoWorld-renowned linguist and all people are talking about is his political views (mostly by his own design). Make no mistake, Chomsky's work was significant to both linguistics proper (X-bar theory, generative grammar, universal grammar) and computer science (Chomsky hierarchy). In recent years though he more often than not comes across as a grumpy old man who can't seem to accept the fact that linguistic theory has moved on to often simpler, more elegant approaches.
- foldr 9y ago> linguistic theory has moved on to often simpler, more elegant approaches. As a linguist, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. There have always been alternative approaches. But we have not recently been blessed with any that are clear winners in terms of simplicity and elegance.
- BjoernKW 9y agoHPSG or statistical approaches in computational linguistics, for instance. Now, of course one can argue - as Chomsky himself has done - that statistical approaches are not as elegant as rule-based ones but as human language faculty quite likely behaves statistically to some degree, statistical methods for describing language do have some merit.
- foldr 9y agoLinguistic theory has not "moved on" to HPSG. HPSG originated in the early 90s and remains a minority pursuit. The term "statistical approaches" could mean almost anything. There have always been people who are more interested in building, say, practical machine translation systems than in figuring out how kids acquire grammatical knowledge. But again, the field has not "moved on". There are just different groups of researchers working on different problems.
- red75prime 9y agoI heard that the Universal Grammar reached the peak of simplicity and generality by recursively applying "join-a-word" action. Are those rumors exaggerated?
- shkibb 9y agoDoes anybody else find these sorts of discussions to be just fundamentally cringey as hell? On both sides. Stuff like "We agree mainstream black culture is terrible." Like I don't think either would have the guts to say that in front of a black person.
- ArialAnemone 9y agoHow could it not be terrible? Black america is screwed. The rate of fatherlessness is apocalyptic. Especially when you combine that with the fact that single parent households, with the mother as the parent, produce far more criminals and mentally ill per "family" than households with both parents. Black america is screwed to be a perpetual underclass. imo.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- catenthusiast 9y agoFuck off.
- purple-again 9y agoBarack Obama and Neil Tysons families are part of black America. Those problems you point out are a huge problem in the massive rural trailer parks filled with white people. They are problems associated with poverty not with blacks. It's easy to confound the two since such a large portion of the black population lives in poverty. How you frame it IS important because yes it's a serious problem that plagues the black community but no it's not a problem created by the blacks. You know damn well how it was created.
- sctb 9y agoWe've banned this account.
- sctb 9y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052145 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052145 and marked it off-topic.
- jtraffic 9y agoI suspect that when Chomsky dies, a burst of new and valuable linguistics research will arrive. I'm not saying I hope he dies soon. However, I think his current impact on the field is probably negative. My theory derives from these sources: https://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21695371-theories-worlds-best-known-linguist-have-become-rather-weird-noam-chomsky https://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21695371-theor... (Chomsky's recent theory of how language evolved has not been accepted favorably), and http://www.nber.org/papers/w21788 http://www.nber.org/papers/w21788 (this happens a lot)
- imminentviolet 9y agoThere are some good counter points at http://facultyoflanguage.blogspot.ca/?m=1 http://facultyoflanguage.blogspot.ca/?m=1 it is an interesting discussion and not as damning as the Economist article wants to imply.
- gboudrias 9y ago> However, I think his current impact on the field is probably negative. This is obvious if you look at other field "champions" such as Claude Lévi-Strauss in cultural anthropology. His admittedly invaluable contributions were followed by 50 years of stagnation. Granted I only studied it for a year but it was one of my reasons for not sticking with it.
- droidist2 9y agoEven if his work has had a negative impact, why would the field have to wait for him to die to progress?
- foldr 9y agoChomsky has far less of a grip on the field than people outside it imagine. There are already lots of people doing research in linguistics that's fundamentally different in its approach. So I would not expect any very sudden sea change once Chomsky dies. Note that the economist article is very badly informed. Since another poster didn't link directly to the relevant article on the 'facultyoflanguage' blog, here is a link: http://facultyoflanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/it-never-ends-never.html http://facultyoflanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/it-never-end...
- justin66 9y agoI haven't read his political works but Noam Chomsky as a social phenomenon is interesting. His subject matter is often media and political manipulation and people who haven't read him often feel compelled by an entrenched, opposed political view to voice extremely strong opinions about his work. And they're doing this without any conscious irony.
- swiftting 9y agoCongratulations to Noam Chomsky! I remember when he was giving a talk at Columbia university and the line for entry was literally around the block ! Great man.
- umanwizard 9y agoThe redness of Arizona comes from the affluent suburbs of Phoenix; it doesn't come from Tucson (where Chomsky is presumably moving). If everywhere south of the Gila River (i.e., the Gadsden Purchase) became its own state, it would be deep blue.
- Glyptodon 9y agoIf you exclude Cochise county anyway.
- y0ssar1an 9y agoHe is not a great man. He is an intellectually dishonest enabler of repressive leftist governments. He was a well known supporter of Hugo Chavez - perhaps the only leader in the Americas dumber than Trump. I'm embarrassed at how many of my fellow techies have fallen under Chomsky's sway. http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/noticia/77779/hugo-chavez-recibio-a-chomsky-en-el-palacio-de-miraflores/ http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/noticia/77779/hugo-chav...
- y0ssar1an 9y agoChomsky's politics can be summarized as: interpret everything the US does in the harshest possible light while torturing the data to make Hugo Chavez sound like a good leader.
- balance_factor 9y agoSix years ago Chomsky wrote an open letter that said actions Hugo Chavez were taking were an "assault on democracy". How exactly is that "torturing the data to make Hugo Chavez sound like a good leader"? When Chavez was elected and freed the oil money of Venezuela from the hands of a small, corrupt, European-descendant aristocracy, being shared with poor and working class Venezuelans of all races, Chomsky was enthusiastic. Six years ago, when the government began taking actions that Chomsky thought were anti-democratic and authoritarian, Chomsky was critical.
- y0ssar1an 9y agoThat's a fair point, but this more recent interview from 2013 shows Chomsky's real opinion of Chavez. He's defensive about the human rights abuses, and his overall tone is one of praise for the "liberator" of Latin America. https://youtu.be/M6BiNppcnaI https://youtu.be/M6BiNppcnaI
- Synaesthesia 9y agoLet’s look at the western response to the horrific genocide in Guatemala compared to the admittedly egregious abuses in Venezuela but which don’t evens approach those atrocities ...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- tlively 9y agoI just about died when I read, 'He formulated the algorithm "context-free grammar"...'
- EternalData 9y agoTIL that Noam Chomsky answers emails. It's always been my thing to reach out to personal heroes of mine. What's the best way to reach out to him?
- otalp 9y agoHis public MIT email
- notadoc 9y agoInteresting move given the hostile AZ political climate.
- GirlsCanCode 9y agoGood. I'm glad MIT finally fired him.