8 ms·

Recovering from Burnout and Depression

587 points by kierantie 9y ago

rjeli 9y ago
Why do I never read articles targeted at other high-stress jobs (lawyer, med student, etc etc)? Do software engineers have a unique culture that identifies this danger? Or are we the only ones that get burned out, maybe because of some self-selection into the field?
- cpncrunch 9y ago
  It's a pretty big problem for healthcare workers: http://journals.lww.com/co-criticalcare/Abstract/2007/10000/Burnout_syndrome_among_critical_care_healthcare.4.aspx http://journals.lww.com/co-criticalcare/Abstract/2007/10000/...
  - gmfawcett 9y ago
    Also see Christina Maslach's books on burnout. She doesn't focus exclusively on health workers, but they are noted as a group which is particularly prone to burnout. (Edit: I just read the article, and see that the author cited Maslach already.)
    - kierantie 9y ago
      Yep - I mentioned Christina's book in my article as a great resource. My wife is a therapist, and she sees a lot of other people in the field struggling with the same issues, especially for those who work with high-risk groups.
    - cpncrunch 9y ago
      Yes, Maslach is one of the experts/pioneers in burnout research. She created the Maslach Burnout Inventory, and is highly cited.
- kierantie 9y ago
  Maybe they're too busy to write about it? ;) I think your point about devs/designers/PMs/etc. having a unique culture is spot on. It's a field that tends to attract a lot of high achievers, and a field that people tend to tie themselves a lot to their work. That was one of my main problems - over a few years, I started to define myself based on the work I was doing. It's taken me a lot longer to dig out of it than I thought.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  It probably depends on what you read. Lawyers complain a lot about burn-out. At least the lawyers I know make much more money than the average software dev so it's a little easier to bear. They also have more job security and don't have to worry about age discrimination.
- existencebox 9y ago
  I think a cursory search of "finance suicide" will demonstrate that we are far from unique. We just express it in ways, and within bubbles, shared by our peers, so it's very visible to us.
- draw_down 9y ago
  "If you're reading it, it's for you"
- mikeg8 9y ago
  Interesting question. My take would be that software engineers may tend to be more publicly open about their mistakes and pitfalls in an effort to help those who come next avoid the same mistakes. This is especially true regarding technical mistakes and that mindset has permeated to personal/emotional difficulties as well.
- jtraffic 9y ago
  Interesting that you mention lawyers. I've heard multiple times that they are at super high risk of burnout. This quote, for example: "Lawyers are at especially high risk for burnout, both because of the job and because of the personality traits we tend to have." From this article: https://lawyerist.com/94605/recognize-prevent-lawyer-burnout/ https://lawyerist.com/94605/recognize-prevent-lawyer-burnout... Yes, I went looking for an article about lawyers and burnout, so it's not particularly telling, but it least it demonstrates existence.
- rb808 9y ago
  One difference that is relevant to the OP is that IT management is very difficult and very different to development. Also managing devs is often like herding cats. Turnover is often high, everyone wants to do their own thing, communication skills are often sub-optimal and external deadlines are often tight. So Devs are promoted into a difficult job without having good management skills, or often even a desire to be the boss.
- chatmasta 9y ago
  Probably just confirmation bias given the fact that a) you mostly read articles/blogs targeted at SWE professionals, and b) software engineers are far more likely to blog about their career experience than any other profession. I'm sure if you read some trade magazines targeted at lawyers, etc you'd find similar sentiments. Another, slightly more cynical interpretation is that software engineers are "special snowflakes" who are much more likely than legal/financial/medical professionals to complain about long hours and/or burnout. Interestingly those three professions all have gruelingly long hours and require you to "pay your dues" early in you career. Yet those professionals seem to complain far less, perhaps because the long hours are an expected part of their culture. After all, in finance people typically brag about how long they stayed at the office. So there is clearly some difference in work culture between the professions.
  - existencebox 9y ago
    I somewhat agree with your cynical interpretation, but I might tweak it a little bit to be more forgiving: It's a matter of expectations. SWE work, for the most part over the last 20-30 years, (until very recently, at least to my eyes) has been perceived as "creative", almost "artistic" work, whereas the day to day is much much more in line with some weird combination of banking (often high stress, shifting goals, high impact of externalities, one small cog in a giant machine) and blue collar production work. This not even counting the drastic shifts I've seen in the last 5-10 years to commoditize SWE work. (not a value judgement, just an observation) Most of my friends and family who went into finance did so knowing what they were getting into, some even _wanting_ that. It definitely cultivates a different culture and set of expectations. (There are definitely some CSers I knew who love the grind, but I don't think I'm making a stretch to assert they were the minority, and often were within a specific slice of CS that requires that more similar culture)
  - ido 9y ago
    I have often encountered coworkers bragging about how long they worked. Been working as a programmer professionally since 2001.
- clydethefrog 9y ago
  I would say the alienation of the worker from their product is the most clear in programming jobs for companies. All these hours of code crafting, while having no control over the design-and-production protocol and getting only a part of exchange value and no recognition - while IT nowadays is one of the most important intellectual labour that keeps a business running. Meanwhile, the work of med students and lawyers still offer emotional connections with other people and are often seen as virtuous professions.
- abawany 9y ago
  Well, I suspect part of the reason is that HN often shows articles targeted to software engineers. I also think there is another reason that has been alluded to else where in the comments indirectly: ownership/autonomy. Compared to the other high-skill professions that you mention, software engineering in my opinion is bogged by a near-constant effort to belittle, control, and process-ify the work that we do. Some might enjoy the semblance of order it might bring to their day but it makes me retch. I always found it darkly amusing that a failure on the part of product or management to better predict the market or customer requirements somehow translated into more soul-sucking metrics and process for the development team, enforced by highly-unpleasant PMs who I wish would instead have followed their true calling in life and become serial killers. I left significant RSUs and took a huge pay cut to get away from a large company that I felt was killing me slowly. I am not saying that I have arrived yet but I haven't had to go through a suck-filled daily standup in a few years and I am very grateful for that.
P4rzival 9y ago
This is also a huge problem for social workers, especially working with high risk clients. A lot of times the departments are unfunded so the workers also do not get the treatment/counseling they really need.
- ythn 9y ago
  Social workers all the way down?
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  That job wreaks havoc on your emotions.
thatonecoderguy 9y ago
This hit spot on for me. I believe I'm currently dealing with and realized not long ago that Burnout was real and not an arbitrary term that people through around.
- kierantie 9y ago
  Glad it helped! I've heard from so many people that have been struggling with the same thing, but didn't even know that's what was going on. It took me months to realize what was happening, and one of the biggest things that helped was reading about others' accounts of their experiences - which is what prompted me to write about it also.
kierantie 9y ago
Hey everyone - thanks so much for reading! Burnout and depression is a topic that not enough of us talk about, even though that's often the best solution. If you know anyone struggling with burnout or depression, or you just enjoyed my article, I'd be forever grateful if you'd share it with them on Twitter or Facebook, to help spread the word. Thanks so much!
- leesalminen 9y ago
  Fellow Coloradoan here. Just wanted to say thank you for writing this. I'm going through a very difficult time in my professional life and needed to read that. Thanks again!
  - kierantie 9y ago
    No problem - so glad it helped!
- olivermarks 9y ago
  I'm very burnt out on the whole 'like and share' thing Kieran. Is the intent to productize your thoughts and advice? I thought it was an ok article but was turned off by the email harvesting to get your punch list. 'Work to live' rather than live to work is my credo...
  - kierantie 9y ago
    I have no intention to productize my thoughts on burnout - I just know that one of the things that helped me the most was reading other people's accounts of what they went through. It took me a lot of searching to find the help I needed - if, by sharing, I'm able to make that a little easier for a few others, then I'll be happy.
- moron4hire 9y ago
  > Burnout and depression is a topic that not enough of us talk about You know, I get what you're saying, but I actually need to stop you here. Because honestly, we can't go two weeks without a post hitting the front page about someone's personal come-to-Jesus moment about burnout. We do talk about burnout and depression, a lot. And nobody learns. Nobody learns and I don't think anyone will learn. In the 20 years I've been working in the tech industry, I've only seen things get worse. Workers get treated more like cattle every day. Creatives who become founders self-flagellate themselves even more. It's a sick, disgusting cycle, all built on a lie of "just work hard--never mind on what--and you will get your due", and it's one I think companies like Facebook and funds like Andreeson are encouraging so that they can have a constant churn of Jr Devs desperate to get started and Sr Devs desperate to put their lives back together after their own failed startups.
postfacto 9y ago
For me the cause for burnout was having to deal with a combination of politics, the fact that those determined my lack of technical input, that I wasn't allowed to perform at my best because I lacked input, and then getting beaten with the underperformer stick while the project was going down the tubes.
- kierantie 9y ago
  I hear that - it sounds VERY similar to what I dealt with. I also had the additional problem of working to help an audience and a customer base that deep down, I didn't care about. So many people seem to believe it's only about overwork - but that's only a small part of it. It's a myth I tried to dispel as best I could in the article.
  - quantumhobbit 9y ago
    Very true about overwork. I would be less burned out if I worked more, or was allowed to be more productive. For me burnout is about powerlessness in work, the feeling that no matter what I do I won't be able to make a positive impact.
    - graphitezepp 9y ago
      "burnout is about powerlessness" I think is a succinct but adequate way to put it, at least from my perspective.
- gxespino 9y ago
  WOAH, that is an perfect description of what I've experienced in the past but was unable to put into words.
55555 9y ago
I think a big factor in burnout is that most work is ultimately meaningless, or even morally wrong, and on a deep level, we're aware of that. Why is it so hard to make yourself work? Probably because you actually should be doing something else with your life. If someone paid you money to kick a dog, you'd feel a strong urge to do something else. That's because you shouldn't kick dogs. But when we feel the same urge to not work, we read articles (not this one so much) that are essentially lists of ways to trick ourselves into doing things that don't matter or which will make the world a worse place. You may have an idea that you know will make you a millionaire and which you could build, but you just can't force yourself to because fundamentally money won't make you happy and the idea is meaningless at best. At least this is often the case for me.
- crush-n-spread 9y ago
  I submit that the working person greatly benefits from having a strongly held, over-arching life goal. Then even if he or she is working a soul-draining job for, say, a social media company, they will be content knowing it is a necessary step towards their goal.
  - losteric 9y ago
    What do you mean by "goals"? I've met too many people hopelessly throwing themselves against a wall trying to "achieve their dreams"... they see themselves as a Hollywood-esque main character, either aiming unrealistically high or shooting for mundane gimmes. Without a broader vision, those that pick reasonably scoped goals may still end up depressed by their small wins that add up to nothing. Modern mss media and image culture certainly hasn't helped manage realistic expectations or self-perception. I think it's more important to have a strong life stance - a broader collective vision that adds context to the individual - and a stoic understanding of limitations. That metaheuristic provides deeper meaning while facilitating rational evaluation of our achievements/goals. Drawing an analogy to software projects, the life stance defines a person's mission and tenets while goals act as milestones or stories. Executing without the broader vision simply doesn't work for humans... our limited and unknown budget of time is constantly burning away.
draw_down 9y ago
Everything in that list is happening for me right now, with perhaps the exception of the mismatch between my values and my company's. I tell my manager about it and he has been trying to rearrange things to try to help me, but I feel like there is probably a reason things got to be this shitty, and that reason will probably keep on happening. I don't know what to do. My last workplace was bad in many of the same ways, and I don't feel like I have the energy to enter into yet another employment situation brimming with optimism, only to have it turn into the suck once again.
- kevindqc 9y ago
  Same. I guess my only option is to take months off, but can't really afford to...
  - kierantie 9y ago
    Taking months off isn't the only option. It's just one way of buying you enough headspace to begin to see what the true problem is. Identifying the cause is the first step - then you can start to take small steps towards fixing that specific problem/s. Even small things, like turning off your phone when you leave work for the day, or taking a walk outside on your lunch break, can help a lot.
xivusr 9y ago
I can totally relate to this. I experienced this after working steadily 4 years and then having a close friend pass unexpectedly. Suddenly everything I was spending all my time on felt like a waste of time. Now, almost two years later I'm doing better and even looking to work in a non-remote scenario. I think it's great to be on the lookout for signs of burnout, but on the other hand it's equally important to use our time wisely and do the things we love.
- h_fitzgerald 9y ago
  Your situation is eerily similar to mine. I lost my best friend in 2015. I was already pretty overworked and stressed out at my job, but after his death my brain was just broken. I had no drive, ambition, or focus. My shrink has been instrumental in the recovery process. Having said that, rebuilding your life post-burnout/depression can be an overwhelming at times. It's helped me to just focus on making one thing better each day, no matter how small the task. Forward momentum is the key ingredient to a come back. Good luck and Godspeed!
ggggtez 9y ago
Are there any studies on how long engineers take to recover from burnout? 6 months sounds about right from what I've heard anecdotally.
- metaphorm 9y ago
  me too. 6 months is about how long it took me to recover from my own episode of burnout. I've spoken to several peers who report the same thing.
- goodoldboys 9y ago
  Another data point here - takes me about 6 months as well.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  I suspect there's considerable variance.
  - ahartman00 9y ago
    I believe the anecdotes in this thread range from about 1 month to 2 years, iirc. I've been feeling a little burnt out lately. But reading this thread reminded me of how much I have to be grateful for, and there were many good tips. Like focus on the positives. So for me, like 1 hour or so :) There are many factors at play here. How bad is it? What is the cause? How long does it take to address the cause? Ie if the cause is not having meaning, how long does it take to find something meaningful? If it is a bad community, how long does it take to find people you like?
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      Not my field, but: * Suicide is one terminal option. * There's a fair history of people who've suffered burnout, or equivalent earlier terms (nervous breakdown, nervous exhaustion, possibly also PTSD and its antecedants -- combat fatigue and shell shock), for the rest of their natural lives. * Others who've taken multi-year / multi-decadal breaks, or transitioned to other careers or professions. Again: I suspect considerable variance.
notadoc 9y ago
Take a vacation / break, refocus on personal priorities. Learn what makes you happy, and do that - at least outside of work.
BertPhoo 9y ago
How timely; last night I typed 'how to recover from burnout' into google. Thank you.
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failrate 9y ago
My recovery included a regimented sleeping, eating, and exercise plan that I introduced in stages. If you have to pick just one to start with, it is a toss up between going to sleep at the same time every night or going for a walk every day. I also never work overtime anymore. Still not totally okay, but not completely burnt out anymore.
- abvdasker 9y ago
  Can you expand on some of the details of your regimen? I'm having trouble getting myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour and I think it is strongly contributing to a growing sense of fatigue at work. Would be particularly interested in how you got started with it.
  - failrate 9y ago
    Yes, it is a simple regimen: At least a half hour before bed, turn down all lights and light-emitting objects. This means no computers or television. Do not do anything in your bed other than sleeping or sex. If you want to read until bedtime, move yourself to a different location, like a comfortable couch. If you are having trouble sleeping at a given time, you may try melatonin. I don't have to follow all of these rules now that I've developed the habit, but I find my sleep is significantly improved when I do. Oh, and don't go to sleep drunk, either.
  - _callcc 9y ago
    I had really bad sleep issues for years and what finally fixed it was not keeping my phone, laptop, or desktop anywhere near the bedroom. When I was younger I would fall asleep quite naturally no matter what I was doing or where. But now, even if I wasn't on them, having them near to hand would keep me up. They sort of sabotaged that in-between phase, just before you fall asleep.
spatulon 9y ago
This struck pretty close to home. I quit my job because of burnout, and I'm currently on month five of what I expected to be a two or three month break before finding another job. I still don't feel ready to go back into the real world. Like the author, work overload was not the problem - I almost never worked more than 40 hours per week. Finding support from family/friends has been difficult; I've been desperately trying to avoid the stigma attached to the word ｄｅｐｒｅｓｓｉｏｎ, and as a result I don't think many people realise what I've been going through, and assume I've just decided to bum around for a bit.
hn017132 9y ago
I burned out in 1999 and never really recovered. I miss some of the work, but not the stress, not the politics nor gamesmanship. Instead of creating capital value for faceless shareholders I've spent the past nearly 20 years creating financial and personal value for myself.
- neversorry 9y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, what steps did you take?
  - hn017132 9y ago
    I taught myself how to invest for reasonable returns, so a mix of stocks, bonds, and real companies. I learned how to read and critique financial statements, business plans, LLC / LP organization documents. I learned how to say “no” to outrageous demands on my time, to companies which asked that I give it all in return for some meager equity grant that could be worth millions but more likely not worth the paper it was written on. Fairly boring, really, but not covered in my CS or liberal arts studies in college. You get so caught up in the moment: get a job, make money, pay your debts, you don't get a chance to step back and ask what you want out of life. I've tried working with startups again since I left that world, and I always end up leaving after a few months to a year. Most startups are managed as though everything is a crisis, your hair is on fire all the time (and if it's not, then clearly you're doing something wrong). Firms, capital back companies are not new. Digital technology and communications remove a lot of the friction, but a lot of the corporate politics you find in today's hot startup existed in the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s and so on. It's not just a failure to learn from the past, it's an outright refusal, the constant "it'll be different this time" mantra. Surprise: it's pretty much the same shit, different logos and domain names (and apps).
suryakrishna 9y ago
I was working for the software giant based in Seattle. I experienced all the emotions mentioned in this post. Lucky that you had an option to take a break for 6 months. I cannot quit my job and take a big break as my visa does not permit this but I did quit my job and spent a month looking for another job which was even more stressful. Currently, I am lucky that I work for a company which truly values employees. I am currently recuperating and it is gonna take some time. The important learning is never to allow this in the first phase, when you have a inception of a thought that something is not going right, get on it and fix it and never ever think about it again.
- praneshp 9y ago
  If you're on H1, and have the money to pull it off, you can take a break with an approved leave of absence[0]. When it's renewal time, you can add these dates in as time not spent on H1 if the time was spent outside the US. I hope you get better soon! [0]: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-taking-approved-leave-affects-your-h-1b-employment.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-taking-approved-l...
faragon 9y ago
TL;DR: Don't try so hard. Like Queen's song. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kUc5RcMqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kUc5RcMqc
saral 9y ago
This has certainly been eye-opening read for me. I believe a lot of us can relate to the traits mentioned in the blog, this will lead us to take necessary steps at the right time. >Burnout offers a hidden silver lining. In the end this is what leads to satisfaction in life.
backpropaganda 9y ago
If any of you are suffering from depression, you should seriously try microdosing LSD.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  While I'm sure there are a few causes of depression and contextual life events and personalities for which LSD might be useful, it's downright irresponsible to suggest that "if any reader" suffers from depression he should turn to narcotics.
  - backpropaganda 9y ago
    I'm not saying I have the study to show that LSD can help with any depression, but do you have any evidence that it only helps with certain kinds? (I know, burden of proof is on me) The reason my advice isn't irresponsible is because microdosing LSD has no downsides. If it doesn't work, nothing breaks. Try something else then. Depression is a real life-killer, and if 10 people tried my advice, and this worked for only 1 of them (although I think at least 5 would), then this advice has essentially saved 1 life, while not harming the others.
    - lr4444lr 9y ago
      Even if it could help them, there are risks[0], and in most jurisdictions, LSD is a highly restricted drug which doctors cannot prescribe therapeutically, so there is no guarantee of dose or purity. People with severe depression who would entertain this seriously are already prone to impulsive behavior and cognitive difficulties. The suggestion is irresponsible. [0] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000795.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000795.htm
    - Jach 9y ago
      You might as well suggest a sugar pill, then. There are downsides to LSD. Illegality is probably the biggest. Here's a self-study showing micro-dosing is pointless (for the person) and possibly has harmful trends: https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing
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twfarland 9y ago
I burned out three times in salaried jobs. Mostly due to chaotic leadership. Hard work isn't the problem. Chaos and bad leadership is the problem. Moved to contracting, and have been fine since.
- convolvatron 9y ago
  how is that? i find that chaos and bad leadership still has a huge impact on my perception of my job and my ability to make progress as a contractor. its just alot easier to shrug and cash the check. and spend as much of the rest of your time doing things you think are worthwhile. ideally as a contractor i could choose to apply myself at places which were better organized and more engaging, its just they aren't as interested in contractors and its hard enough keeping yourself in jobs without firing all* the lousy customers.
  - michaeltoth 9y ago
    A bit off topic, but I'm curious - how did you get started in contracting and how do you go about finding clients? Is it through people you've worked with in the past, or do you somehow advertise yourself? This is something I've considered moving toward but I don't know where to begin. Thanks!
    - twfarland 9y ago
      Specialisation helps. Look at what the market wants, is paying well for, and is underserved by. Then you can just look for advertised contract gigs. It's also nice to have one or two contacts who funnel you work, but not essential, if you have an in-demand specialty.
    - convolvatron 9y ago
      its pretty hard. alot of reaching out. contracts dry up for a wide variety of reasons. so you have to keep the pipe full. body shops will reach out to you - thats usually suboptimal for alot of reasons, but its work sadly, alot of my contracts come from interviews for full time positions where the customer is hiring for some special skill, but its clear there isn't a long term role for me there. that can lead to work old contacts are the best way, but you have to stay on people's radar. sofar I've found gig sites to be pretty useless. the site wants to constrain communication so that you cant have the normal design discussion up front - they just say 'microcontroller work <$250', bid yes or no my impression is that the mvp webapp space is still pretty easy to make money in. not really in systems - decent employers know that its hard to make a contract work well and would rather have you as a resource ongoing. and everyone is just doing staple jobs these days, so 'kernel' and 'test' and 'embedded', and all the old specialties dont get you anywhere. i would try to leverage someone you've worked with before who is now in a position to influence a contract decision. someone with whom you have a level of mutual respect. once you have something ongoing, always spend time trying to open up new opportunities. the thing that i find hard is that as a hired gun, you can present your opinion for consideration - once. its not your role to pursue and agenda, you're there to provide hourly services at the discretion of the customer and you need to demonstrate concrete value. to circle around, its this carefully negotiated per-task relationship that both removes the pain of trying to work around useless colleagues and eliminates any reward you might feel for shaping a product. this is not your party, you're just serving canapes.
rubicon33 9y ago
I want to highlight something that the article touched on, which for me, was a big source of burnout. "Breakdown of community" This can happen if you work remotely, or work in-office with a team that isn't collaborating effectively. If the work you do is isolating and you rarely collaborate with others, you may suffer burnout. At our core we all want to feel like we're part of something bigger than ourselves. Being part of a team, even if it's as contrived as an office team is, can still be surprisingly important for ones mental health. If you're feeling burned out consider if a lack of engagement with your peers could be a contributor. That's my 0.02 at least.
- tannerc 9y ago
  Poor collaboration within a small team is something I'm experiencing now, and it's devastating. Would be curious to hear if you found a way out, or a way to improve collaboration within a currently flawed group.
  - gxespino 9y ago
    Second that request for how to deal with poor collaboration within teams.
  - rubicon33 9y ago
    That's a tough question to provide a meaningful answer to without understanding the source of the problem. Conflicts and lack of collaboration on teams can be the result of a number of factors each requiring a unique approach. In general it's the responsibility of the manager to monitor the health of the team as a unit. If you have a manager it may be worth bringing this issue to their attention and working with them to find a solution. The manager has the authority, and should have the respect, to make the necessary changes to your team dynamics to improve collaboration. What this means for your team, depends entirely on what the source of the problem is. For as much as managers get a bad rap in the tech community, they really do have an important job. Steering the ship and ensuring the wellbeing of the team is their number one priority. A good manager should be open to your comments and appreciate the opportunity to work with you to increase valuable collaboration. If you don't have a manager then you may need to wear the manager hat. My recommendation in this case - not knowing you or your team - would be to identify the source of the collaboration breakdown, and then reach out to your colleagues to see if they feel the same way. Assuming everyone on your team is cordial, they should be open to a discussion on how to promote a collaborative environment. If your teammates are NOT cordial, well, you've got an entirely different problem on your hands...
bholdr 9y ago
Very interesting and very nicely written! I was thinking about this myself lately (https://medium.com/@yansh/who-do-you-want-to-be-in-life-ca8ffa3d72e7 https://medium.com/@yansh/who-do-you-want-to-be-in-life-ca8f...).. I think the advice to slow down, take a break, refocus is key to figuring things out, however, not everyone can afford to do so. It's a risk, and there is always a trade off. So I wouldn't frame the article as a guide, because it's different for everyone.
- cerberusss 9y ago
  > however, not everyone can afford to do so So start saving. This was actually my biggest takeaway from the article. The couple had more than 6 months of living costs stashed away, which I think is a very good idea.
  - bholdr 9y ago
    yes, a great advice but might not be a viable option for everyone.
mkalygin 9y ago
Recently I was feeling very frustrated about my work, about what I do in my life. This was lasting for about 1 month. I've noticed that in such periods I compare myself to others and intentionally think that I'm worse. Like literally the most useless person in the world. Usually I find any particular metric (even meaningless) and compare. This is very self-destructing activity. What helps me in fight with burnout is realising what my strong sides are. I just try to do what I'm good at, and I stop comparing myself to others because of obvious evidence that I'm not. And of course I get more rest, more sleep and switch to creative hobby activities more often. Like an author, I reevaluate my goals and priorities and become in sync with my life again.
- Bakary 9y ago
  I've heard about this thought process often and I feel that the root cause is that tying your self-worth to your "usefulness" to others or to society at large is ultimately self-defeating.
  - ahartman00 9y ago
    see this recent discussion: "Self-Compassion Works Better Than Self-Esteem" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958
milesf 9y ago
A nurse once told me "burnout is actually heartache in disguise". While I don't complete agree with that statement, I think there's some truth in it.
kornakiewicz 9y ago
One of my favourite quotes from Edward Sapir (known for Sapir-Whorf hypothesis): The major activities of the individual must directly satisfy his own creative and emotional impulses, must always be something more than means to an end. The great cultural fallacy of industrialism, as developed up to the present time, is that in harnessing machines to our uses it has not known how to avoid the harnessing of the majority of mankind to its machines. The telephone girl who lends her capacities, during the greater part of the living day, to the manipulation of a technical routine that has an eventually high efficiency value but that answers to no spiritual needs of her own is an appalling sacrifice to civilisation. As a solution of the problem of culture she is a failure — the more dismal the greater her natural endowment. As with the telephone girl, so, it is to be feared, with the great majority of us, slave-stokers to fires that burn for demons we would destroy, were it not that they appear in the guise of our benefactors. The American Indian who solves the economic problem with salmon-spear and rabbit-snare operates on a relatively low level of civilisation, but he represents an incomparably higher solution than our telephone girl of the questions that culture has to ask of economics. There is here no question of the immediate utility, of the effective directness, of economic effort, nor of any sentimentalizing regrets as to the passing of the "natural man." The Indian's salmon-spearing is a culturally higher type of activity than that of the telephone girl or mill hand simply because there is normally no sense of spiritual frustration during its prosecution, no feeling of subservience to tyrannous yet largely inchoate demands, because it works in naturally with all the rest of the Indian's activities instead of standing out as a desert patch of merely economic effort in the whole of life. A genuine culture cannot be defined as a sum of abstractly desirable ends, as a mechanism. It must be looked upon as a sturdy plant growth, each remotest leaf and twig of which is organically fed by the sap at the core. And this growth is not here meant as a metaphor for the group only; it is meant to apply as well to the individual. A culture that does not build itself out of the central interests and desires of its bearers, that works from general ends to the individual, is an external culture. The word "external," which is so often instinctively chosen to describe such a culture, is well chosen. The genuine culture is internal, it works from the individual to ends.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  Yet this is one of the central business models of Silicon Valley: build a software apparatus, hire "interchangeable" women to take care of the human side of it, pay them "market rates" which for women's work means "the lowest acceptable wage for at least one woman in the social class your customers expect" (they're interchangeable, any woman could follow the script. The hard part is building The Apparatus that tells them what to do. So we pay men big bucks to build The Apparatus). It's all built on the fundamental belief that the work these ladies are doing is interchangeable while the men's work is not. Is that really true though? And of course sometimes you find a pool of men who will let you treat them interchangeably too...
throwaway8800 9y ago
I think the most striking thing about burnout is that, in my experience, it actually takes time to recover from it. Like a wound that requires healing. It wasn't a situation where you simply remove a stressor and everything automatically gets better. A problem was created in my brain and it took a long time before I was functioning properly again.
- atulatul 9y ago
  Good point. And this is the thing I noticed most in the article. Have read a few other articles here in the past. But here the author stressed this point.
Karupan 9y ago
As someone recently diagnosed with depression and anxiety, this stuck a chord. For me the hardest step was to prioritize my health over my job and force myself to get help. Fortunately, have some savings like the author and am taking a break for a while. Thanks for this timely post!
soulnothing 9y ago
I've burnt out on several occasions. I'm currently battling with it right now. Part of it is my career has regressed in pay and challenge year over year. I can barely accept doing something relatively pointless. But I need to grow or challenge myself to some extent. In the long run, I work to pay the bills. I have a million other things I want to do. But what do you do when both your personal and professional life collapse at the same time. That's the boat I'm in right now. As soon as I'm done with work. I practically start working on salvaging what I can of my personal life. I forcefully have dragged myself to the doctors. But am not getting much help as of yet from that field.
soulnothing 9y ago
I've burnt out on several occasions. I'm currently battling with it right now. Part of it is my career has regressed in pay and challenge year over year. I can barely accept doing something relatively pointless. But I need to grow or challenge myself to some extent. In the long run, I work to pay the bills. I have a million other things I want to do. But what do you do when both your personal and professional life collapse at the same time. That's the boat I'm in right now. As soon as I'm done with work. I practically start working on salvaging what I can of my personal life. I forcefully have dragged myself to the doctors. But am not getting much help as of yet from that field.
phoenixProgram 9y ago
jews: you are depressed and burned out me: put on a show jews: what show? me: jews starving to death
abhi152 9y ago
I feel that this is a over simplified version of a much deeper problem and cannot be concluded based on the experience of the Author alone. There are many things that cause burnout and many different reasons that cause depression. In the case of author the Work did it but there are people in this world who get burnt out because of sickness of their loved ones or even because of ambition & their vision. Interestingly the word depression is not even mentioned in the article.
6841iam 9y ago
the author of the post really grabbed my attention for his slick copy to get my to sign up for his mailing list. as soon as you get on the list he has a link to a tweet he wants you to RT. excellent copy, very good marketing and product skills. I'm going to be following this author because he could be onto something.
manmal 9y ago
It has already been said that burnout can stem from a "bad boss", i.e. abusive, or your work is not appreciated. I think it can also stem from not having a (perceived) choice. If your worldview forces you to do this exact job ("I'm only good at this particular job", "I would lose my/our home for lack of money", "My parents would not approve me quitting"), then this can kill your enthusiasm, and also result in a burnout. And it will spread, and infect other areas of your life, and you might wonder why you are actually here. Just building up a choice can help a lot. This could be an alternative career that earns less, but you realize that you can actually get by on less. Or you make the decision that your parents' approval is not something you need anymore. Given a choice, the fun might or might not return. I'm pivoting to design for this very reason. I love building things, and I'm good (maybe great) at software, but programming is just not an activity I feel comfortable doing all day.
sethx 9y ago
Software engineer here. I've been working on meaningless and emotionally unrewarding project for the last 2 years. Running burnout self-tests this morning yielded me the second most critical level, but still worthy of "act immediately" or "seek medical attention". I feel pretty down and my dayjob is meaningless to me. I'm considering taking a sick leave till the end of my contract next month, and am wondering this: If burnout is caused by lack of emotional reward and lack of giving a f*ck, should i pick up a sideproject I've committed to that i kind of care about instead, and think is interesting? Or ditch that as well and just take rest/go travel? Can i still work while recovering? What's a good workload?
- ahartman00 9y ago
  "I feel pretty down and my dayjob is meaningless to me" Do you have hobbies? There's many to choose from :) Ask yourself, what does have meaning to you? There is more to life than a job. "should i pick up a sideproject I've committed to that i kind of care about instead, and think is interesting?" This might be a good idea. If you would find it meaningful and emotionally rewarding. "Or ditch that as well and just take rest/go travel?" Is there someplace you have always wanted to go? Rest is good, but it sounds like you aren't overworked, as much as just not being stimulated. As far as I can tell. "Can i still work while recovering? What's a good workload?" If you have the savings, I wouldn't. "I'm considering taking a sick leave till the end of my contract next month" If you absolutely need to. But it might mean not getting a good reference. Can you stick it out(assuming you dont already have another lined up)?
spangry 9y ago
This article really resonates with me. I burned out badly around 2 years ago and have still not recovered. 2 years. Although it's probably exacerbated by pre-existing chronic depression in my case. It's cost me so much. My friends, who I've all alienated. My general physical health, which is the worst it's ever been in my adult life. Strained family relationships. Gaining a reputation for being 'unreliable'. If you notice that feeling of exhaustion/frustration creeping up on you, even though objectively what you're doing shouldn't be that strenuous, stop. Stop right there and take a long break. Don't tell yourself "I'll just close out this project and then take a break". Just stop. The extra couple of months of work you might be able to force out of yourself are not worth the years of hell that may follow.
chmike 9y ago
This is very interesting. The site is nice but I miss the opportunity to provide feedback to the author. It's frustrating. To recover from a burnout I have seen that it can be helpful to keep track of achievements. In depression or burnout very simple things become very exhausting. Keeping track of the little things we manage to achieve are like small victories. When we measure and display in a graphic all the things we achieved, we objectivate things and see progress which give back trust and power. It's a vertuous circle. Objectivation is important because we tend to see only the negative side of things, and especially ourselves.
noyes 9y ago
The reason you are suffering is because you aren't living your life based on an understanding of your predicament. Fool me once shame on you and fool me twice shame on me. So don't get fooled again. And don't forget to remind yourself it's all just a stupid game. Just like musical chairs.

587 points by kierantie 9y ago

Why do I never read articles targeted at other high-stress jobs (lawyer, med student, etc etc)? Do software engineers have a unique culture that identifies this danger? Or are we the only ones that get burned out, maybe because of some self-selection into the field?

cpncrunch 9y ago
It's a pretty big problem for healthcare workers: http://journals.lww.com/co-criticalcare/Abstract/2007/10000/Burnout_syndrome_among_critical_care_healthcare.4.aspx http://journals.lww.com/co-criticalcare/Abstract/2007/10000/...
- gmfawcett 9y ago
  Also see Christina Maslach's books on burnout. She doesn't focus exclusively on health workers, but they are noted as a group which is particularly prone to burnout. (Edit: I just read the article, and see that the author cited Maslach already.)
  - kierantie 9y ago
    Yep - I mentioned Christina's book in my article as a great resource. My wife is a therapist, and she sees a lot of other people in the field struggling with the same issues, especially for those who work with high-risk groups.
  - cpncrunch 9y ago
    Yes, Maslach is one of the experts/pioneers in burnout research. She created the Maslach Burnout Inventory, and is highly cited.
kierantie 9y ago
Maybe they're too busy to write about it? ;) I think your point about devs/designers/PMs/etc. having a unique culture is spot on. It's a field that tends to attract a lot of high achievers, and a field that people tend to tie themselves a lot to their work. That was one of my main problems - over a few years, I started to define myself based on the work I was doing. It's taken me a lot longer to dig out of it than I thought.
maxxxxx 9y ago
It probably depends on what you read. Lawyers complain a lot about burn-out. At least the lawyers I know make much more money than the average software dev so it's a little easier to bear. They also have more job security and don't have to worry about age discrimination.
existencebox 9y ago
I think a cursory search of "finance suicide" will demonstrate that we are far from unique. We just express it in ways, and within bubbles, shared by our peers, so it's very visible to us.
draw_down 9y ago
"If you're reading it, it's for you"
mikeg8 9y ago
Interesting question. My take would be that software engineers may tend to be more publicly open about their mistakes and pitfalls in an effort to help those who come next avoid the same mistakes. This is especially true regarding technical mistakes and that mindset has permeated to personal/emotional difficulties as well.
jtraffic 9y ago
Interesting that you mention lawyers. I've heard multiple times that they are at super high risk of burnout. This quote, for example: "Lawyers are at especially high risk for burnout, both because of the job and because of the personality traits we tend to have." From this article: https://lawyerist.com/94605/recognize-prevent-lawyer-burnout/ https://lawyerist.com/94605/recognize-prevent-lawyer-burnout... Yes, I went looking for an article about lawyers and burnout, so it's not particularly telling, but it least it demonstrates existence.
rb808 9y ago
One difference that is relevant to the OP is that IT management is very difficult and very different to development. Also managing devs is often like herding cats. Turnover is often high, everyone wants to do their own thing, communication skills are often sub-optimal and external deadlines are often tight. So Devs are promoted into a difficult job without having good management skills, or often even a desire to be the boss.
chatmasta 9y ago
Probably just confirmation bias given the fact that a) you mostly read articles/blogs targeted at SWE professionals, and b) software engineers are far more likely to blog about their career experience than any other profession. I'm sure if you read some trade magazines targeted at lawyers, etc you'd find similar sentiments. Another, slightly more cynical interpretation is that software engineers are "special snowflakes" who are much more likely than legal/financial/medical professionals to complain about long hours and/or burnout. Interestingly those three professions all have gruelingly long hours and require you to "pay your dues" early in you career. Yet those professionals seem to complain far less, perhaps because the long hours are an expected part of their culture. After all, in finance people typically brag about how long they stayed at the office. So there is clearly some difference in work culture between the professions.
- existencebox 9y ago
  I somewhat agree with your cynical interpretation, but I might tweak it a little bit to be more forgiving: It's a matter of expectations. SWE work, for the most part over the last 20-30 years, (until very recently, at least to my eyes) has been perceived as "creative", almost "artistic" work, whereas the day to day is much much more in line with some weird combination of banking (often high stress, shifting goals, high impact of externalities, one small cog in a giant machine) and blue collar production work. This not even counting the drastic shifts I've seen in the last 5-10 years to commoditize SWE work. (not a value judgement, just an observation) Most of my friends and family who went into finance did so knowing what they were getting into, some even _wanting_ that. It definitely cultivates a different culture and set of expectations. (There are definitely some CSers I knew who love the grind, but I don't think I'm making a stretch to assert they were the minority, and often were within a specific slice of CS that requires that more similar culture)
- ido 9y ago
  I have often encountered coworkers bragging about how long they worked. Been working as a programmer professionally since 2001.
clydethefrog 9y ago
I would say the alienation of the worker from their product is the most clear in programming jobs for companies. All these hours of code crafting, while having no control over the design-and-production protocol and getting only a part of exchange value and no recognition - while IT nowadays is one of the most important intellectual labour that keeps a business running. Meanwhile, the work of med students and lawyers still offer emotional connections with other people and are often seen as virtuous professions.
abawany 9y ago
Well, I suspect part of the reason is that HN often shows articles targeted to software engineers. I also think there is another reason that has been alluded to else where in the comments indirectly: ownership/autonomy. Compared to the other high-skill professions that you mention, software engineering in my opinion is bogged by a near-constant effort to belittle, control, and process-ify the work that we do. Some might enjoy the semblance of order it might bring to their day but it makes me retch. I always found it darkly amusing that a failure on the part of product or management to better predict the market or customer requirements somehow translated into more soul-sucking metrics and process for the development team, enforced by highly-unpleasant PMs who I wish would instead have followed their true calling in life and become serial killers. I left significant RSUs and took a huge pay cut to get away from a large company that I felt was killing me slowly. I am not saying that I have arrived yet but I haven't had to go through a suck-filled daily standup in a few years and I am very grateful for that.

P4rzival 9y ago

This is also a huge problem for social workers, especially working with high risk clients. A lot of times the departments are unfunded so the workers also do not get the treatment/counseling they really need.

ythn 9y ago
Social workers all the way down?
erikpukinskis 9y ago
That job wreaks havoc on your emotions.

thatonecoderguy 9y ago

This hit spot on for me. I believe I'm currently dealing with and realized not long ago that Burnout was real and not an arbitrary term that people through around.

kierantie 9y ago
Glad it helped! I've heard from so many people that have been struggling with the same thing, but didn't even know that's what was going on. It took me months to realize what was happening, and one of the biggest things that helped was reading about others' accounts of their experiences - which is what prompted me to write about it also.

kierantie 9y ago

Hey everyone - thanks so much for reading! Burnout and depression is a topic that not enough of us talk about, even though that's often the best solution. If you know anyone struggling with burnout or depression, or you just enjoyed my article, I'd be forever grateful if you'd share it with them on Twitter or Facebook, to help spread the word. Thanks so much!

leesalminen 9y ago
Fellow Coloradoan here. Just wanted to say thank you for writing this. I'm going through a very difficult time in my professional life and needed to read that. Thanks again!
- kierantie 9y ago
  No problem - so glad it helped!
olivermarks 9y ago
I'm very burnt out on the whole 'like and share' thing Kieran. Is the intent to productize your thoughts and advice? I thought it was an ok article but was turned off by the email harvesting to get your punch list. 'Work to live' rather than live to work is my credo...
- kierantie 9y ago
  I have no intention to productize my thoughts on burnout - I just know that one of the things that helped me the most was reading other people's accounts of what they went through. It took me a lot of searching to find the help I needed - if, by sharing, I'm able to make that a little easier for a few others, then I'll be happy.
moron4hire 9y ago
> Burnout and depression is a topic that not enough of us talk about You know, I get what you're saying, but I actually need to stop you here. Because honestly, we can't go two weeks without a post hitting the front page about someone's personal come-to-Jesus moment about burnout. We do talk about burnout and depression, a lot. And nobody learns. Nobody learns and I don't think anyone will learn. In the 20 years I've been working in the tech industry, I've only seen things get worse. Workers get treated more like cattle every day. Creatives who become founders self-flagellate themselves even more. It's a sick, disgusting cycle, all built on a lie of "just work hard--never mind on what--and you will get your due", and it's one I think companies like Facebook and funds like Andreeson are encouraging so that they can have a constant churn of Jr Devs desperate to get started and Sr Devs desperate to put their lives back together after their own failed startups.

postfacto 9y ago

For me the cause for burnout was having to deal with a combination of politics, the fact that those determined my lack of technical input, that I wasn't allowed to perform at my best because I lacked input, and then getting beaten with the underperformer stick while the project was going down the tubes.

kierantie 9y ago
I hear that - it sounds VERY similar to what I dealt with. I also had the additional problem of working to help an audience and a customer base that deep down, I didn't care about. So many people seem to believe it's only about overwork - but that's only a small part of it. It's a myth I tried to dispel as best I could in the article.
- quantumhobbit 9y ago
  Very true about overwork. I would be less burned out if I worked more, or was allowed to be more productive. For me burnout is about powerlessness in work, the feeling that no matter what I do I won't be able to make a positive impact.
  - graphitezepp 9y ago
    "burnout is about powerlessness" I think is a succinct but adequate way to put it, at least from my perspective.
gxespino 9y ago
WOAH, that is an perfect description of what I've experienced in the past but was unable to put into words.

55555 9y ago

I think a big factor in burnout is that most work is ultimately meaningless, or even morally wrong, and on a deep level, we're aware of that. Why is it so hard to make yourself work? Probably because you actually should be doing something else with your life. If someone paid you money to kick a dog, you'd feel a strong urge to do something else. That's because you shouldn't kick dogs. But when we feel the same urge to not work, we read articles (not this one so much) that are essentially lists of ways to trick ourselves into doing things that don't matter or which will make the world a worse place. You may have an idea that you know will make you a millionaire and which you could build, but you just can't force yourself to because fundamentally money won't make you happy and the idea is meaningless at best. At least this is often the case for me.

crush-n-spread 9y ago
I submit that the working person greatly benefits from having a strongly held, over-arching life goal. Then even if he or she is working a soul-draining job for, say, a social media company, they will be content knowing it is a necessary step towards their goal.
- losteric 9y ago
  What do you mean by "goals"? I've met too many people hopelessly throwing themselves against a wall trying to "achieve their dreams"... they see themselves as a Hollywood-esque main character, either aiming unrealistically high or shooting for mundane gimmes. Without a broader vision, those that pick reasonably scoped goals may still end up depressed by their small wins that add up to nothing. Modern mss media and image culture certainly hasn't helped manage realistic expectations or self-perception. I think it's more important to have a strong life stance - a broader collective vision that adds context to the individual - and a stoic understanding of limitations. That metaheuristic provides deeper meaning while facilitating rational evaluation of our achievements/goals. Drawing an analogy to software projects, the life stance defines a person's mission and tenets while goals act as milestones or stories. Executing without the broader vision simply doesn't work for humans... our limited and unknown budget of time is constantly burning away.

draw_down 9y ago

Everything in that list is happening for me right now, with perhaps the exception of the mismatch between my values and my company's. I tell my manager about it and he has been trying to rearrange things to try to help me, but I feel like there is probably a reason things got to be this shitty, and that reason will probably keep on happening. I don't know what to do. My last workplace was bad in many of the same ways, and I don't feel like I have the energy to enter into yet another employment situation brimming with optimism, only to have it turn into the suck once again.

kevindqc 9y ago
Same. I guess my only option is to take months off, but can't really afford to...
- kierantie 9y ago
  Taking months off isn't the only option. It's just one way of buying you enough headspace to begin to see what the true problem is. Identifying the cause is the first step - then you can start to take small steps towards fixing that specific problem/s. Even small things, like turning off your phone when you leave work for the day, or taking a walk outside on your lunch break, can help a lot.

xivusr 9y ago

I can totally relate to this. I experienced this after working steadily 4 years and then having a close friend pass unexpectedly. Suddenly everything I was spending all my time on felt like a waste of time. Now, almost two years later I'm doing better and even looking to work in a non-remote scenario. I think it's great to be on the lookout for signs of burnout, but on the other hand it's equally important to use our time wisely and do the things we love.

h_fitzgerald 9y ago
Your situation is eerily similar to mine. I lost my best friend in 2015. I was already pretty overworked and stressed out at my job, but after his death my brain was just broken. I had no drive, ambition, or focus. My shrink has been instrumental in the recovery process. Having said that, rebuilding your life post-burnout/depression can be an overwhelming at times. It's helped me to just focus on making one thing better each day, no matter how small the task. Forward momentum is the key ingredient to a come back. Good luck and Godspeed!

ggggtez 9y ago

Are there any studies on how long engineers take to recover from burnout? 6 months sounds about right from what I've heard anecdotally.

metaphorm 9y ago
me too. 6 months is about how long it took me to recover from my own episode of burnout. I've spoken to several peers who report the same thing.
goodoldboys 9y ago
Another data point here - takes me about 6 months as well.
dredmorbius 9y ago
I suspect there's considerable variance.
- ahartman00 9y ago
  I believe the anecdotes in this thread range from about 1 month to 2 years, iirc. I've been feeling a little burnt out lately. But reading this thread reminded me of how much I have to be grateful for, and there were many good tips. Like focus on the positives. So for me, like 1 hour or so :) There are many factors at play here. How bad is it? What is the cause? How long does it take to address the cause? Ie if the cause is not having meaning, how long does it take to find something meaningful? If it is a bad community, how long does it take to find people you like?
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Not my field, but: * Suicide is one terminal option. * There's a fair history of people who've suffered burnout, or equivalent earlier terms (nervous breakdown, nervous exhaustion, possibly also PTSD and its antecedants -- combat fatigue and shell shock), for the rest of their natural lives. * Others who've taken multi-year / multi-decadal breaks, or transitioned to other careers or professions. Again: I suspect considerable variance.

notadoc 9y ago

Take a vacation / break, refocus on personal priorities. Learn what makes you happy, and do that - at least outside of work.

BertPhoo 9y ago

How timely; last night I typed 'how to recover from burnout' into google. Thank you.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

failrate 9y ago

My recovery included a regimented sleeping, eating, and exercise plan that I introduced in stages. If you have to pick just one to start with, it is a toss up between going to sleep at the same time every night or going for a walk every day. I also never work overtime anymore. Still not totally okay, but not completely burnt out anymore.

abvdasker 9y ago
Can you expand on some of the details of your regimen? I'm having trouble getting myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour and I think it is strongly contributing to a growing sense of fatigue at work. Would be particularly interested in how you got started with it.
- failrate 9y ago
  Yes, it is a simple regimen: At least a half hour before bed, turn down all lights and light-emitting objects. This means no computers or television. Do not do anything in your bed other than sleeping or sex. If you want to read until bedtime, move yourself to a different location, like a comfortable couch. If you are having trouble sleeping at a given time, you may try melatonin. I don't have to follow all of these rules now that I've developed the habit, but I find my sleep is significantly improved when I do. Oh, and don't go to sleep drunk, either.
- _callcc 9y ago
  I had really bad sleep issues for years and what finally fixed it was not keeping my phone, laptop, or desktop anywhere near the bedroom. When I was younger I would fall asleep quite naturally no matter what I was doing or where. But now, even if I wasn't on them, having them near to hand would keep me up. They sort of sabotaged that in-between phase, just before you fall asleep.

spatulon 9y ago

This struck pretty close to home. I quit my job because of burnout, and I'm currently on month five of what I expected to be a two or three month break before finding another job. I still don't feel ready to go back into the real world. Like the author, work overload was not the problem - I almost never worked more than 40 hours per week. Finding support from family/friends has been difficult; I've been desperately trying to avoid the stigma attached to the word ｄｅｐｒｅｓｓｉｏｎ, and as a result I don't think many people realise what I've been going through, and assume I've just decided to bum around for a bit.

hn017132 9y ago

I burned out in 1999 and never really recovered. I miss some of the work, but not the stress, not the politics nor gamesmanship. Instead of creating capital value for faceless shareholders I've spent the past nearly 20 years creating financial and personal value for myself.

neversorry 9y ago
If you don't mind me asking, what steps did you take?
- hn017132 9y ago
  I taught myself how to invest for reasonable returns, so a mix of stocks, bonds, and real companies. I learned how to read and critique financial statements, business plans, LLC / LP organization documents. I learned how to say “no” to outrageous demands on my time, to companies which asked that I give it all in return for some meager equity grant that could be worth millions but more likely not worth the paper it was written on. Fairly boring, really, but not covered in my CS or liberal arts studies in college. You get so caught up in the moment: get a job, make money, pay your debts, you don't get a chance to step back and ask what you want out of life. I've tried working with startups again since I left that world, and I always end up leaving after a few months to a year. Most startups are managed as though everything is a crisis, your hair is on fire all the time (and if it's not, then clearly you're doing something wrong). Firms, capital back companies are not new. Digital technology and communications remove a lot of the friction, but a lot of the corporate politics you find in today's hot startup existed in the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s and so on. It's not just a failure to learn from the past, it's an outright refusal, the constant "it'll be different this time" mantra. Surprise: it's pretty much the same shit, different logos and domain names (and apps).

suryakrishna 9y ago

I was working for the software giant based in Seattle. I experienced all the emotions mentioned in this post. Lucky that you had an option to take a break for 6 months. I cannot quit my job and take a big break as my visa does not permit this but I did quit my job and spent a month looking for another job which was even more stressful. Currently, I am lucky that I work for a company which truly values employees. I am currently recuperating and it is gonna take some time. The important learning is never to allow this in the first phase, when you have a inception of a thought that something is not going right, get on it and fix it and never ever think about it again.

praneshp 9y ago
If you're on H1, and have the money to pull it off, you can take a break with an approved leave of absence[0]. When it's renewal time, you can add these dates in as time not spent on H1 if the time was spent outside the US. I hope you get better soon! [0]: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-taking-approved-leave-affects-your-h-1b-employment.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-taking-approved-l...

faragon 9y ago

TL;DR: Don't try so hard. Like Queen's song. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kUc5RcMqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kUc5RcMqc

saral 9y ago

This has certainly been eye-opening read for me. I believe a lot of us can relate to the traits mentioned in the blog, this will lead us to take necessary steps at the right time. >Burnout offers a hidden silver lining. In the end this is what leads to satisfaction in life.

backpropaganda 9y ago

If any of you are suffering from depression, you should seriously try microdosing LSD.

lr4444lr 9y ago
While I'm sure there are a few causes of depression and contextual life events and personalities for which LSD might be useful, it's downright irresponsible to suggest that "if any reader" suffers from depression he should turn to narcotics.
- backpropaganda 9y ago
  I'm not saying I have the study to show that LSD can help with any depression, but do you have any evidence that it only helps with certain kinds? (I know, burden of proof is on me) The reason my advice isn't irresponsible is because microdosing LSD has no downsides. If it doesn't work, nothing breaks. Try something else then. Depression is a real life-killer, and if 10 people tried my advice, and this worked for only 1 of them (although I think at least 5 would), then this advice has essentially saved 1 life, while not harming the others.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    Even if it could help them, there are risks[0], and in most jurisdictions, LSD is a highly restricted drug which doctors cannot prescribe therapeutically, so there is no guarantee of dose or purity. People with severe depression who would entertain this seriously are already prone to impulsive behavior and cognitive difficulties. The suggestion is irresponsible. [0] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000795.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000795.htm
  - Jach 9y ago
    You might as well suggest a sugar pill, then. There are downsides to LSD. Illegality is probably the biggest. Here's a self-study showing micro-dosing is pointless (for the person) and possibly has harmful trends: https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing

deleted 9y ago

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twfarland 9y ago

I burned out three times in salaried jobs. Mostly due to chaotic leadership. Hard work isn't the problem. Chaos and bad leadership is the problem. Moved to contracting, and have been fine since.

convolvatron 9y ago
how is that? i find that chaos and bad leadership still has a huge impact on my perception of my job and my ability to make progress as a contractor. its just alot easier to shrug and cash the check. and spend as much of the rest of your time doing things you think are worthwhile. ideally as a contractor i could choose to apply myself at places which were better organized and more engaging, its just they aren't as interested in contractors and its hard enough keeping yourself in jobs without firing all* the lousy customers.
- michaeltoth 9y ago
  A bit off topic, but I'm curious - how did you get started in contracting and how do you go about finding clients? Is it through people you've worked with in the past, or do you somehow advertise yourself? This is something I've considered moving toward but I don't know where to begin. Thanks!
  - twfarland 9y ago
    Specialisation helps. Look at what the market wants, is paying well for, and is underserved by. Then you can just look for advertised contract gigs. It's also nice to have one or two contacts who funnel you work, but not essential, if you have an in-demand specialty.
  - convolvatron 9y ago
    its pretty hard. alot of reaching out. contracts dry up for a wide variety of reasons. so you have to keep the pipe full. body shops will reach out to you - thats usually suboptimal for alot of reasons, but its work sadly, alot of my contracts come from interviews for full time positions where the customer is hiring for some special skill, but its clear there isn't a long term role for me there. that can lead to work old contacts are the best way, but you have to stay on people's radar. sofar I've found gig sites to be pretty useless. the site wants to constrain communication so that you cant have the normal design discussion up front - they just say 'microcontroller work <$250', bid yes or no my impression is that the mvp webapp space is still pretty easy to make money in. not really in systems - decent employers know that its hard to make a contract work well and would rather have you as a resource ongoing. and everyone is just doing staple jobs these days, so 'kernel' and 'test' and 'embedded', and all the old specialties dont get you anywhere. i would try to leverage someone you've worked with before who is now in a position to influence a contract decision. someone with whom you have a level of mutual respect. once you have something ongoing, always spend time trying to open up new opportunities. the thing that i find hard is that as a hired gun, you can present your opinion for consideration - once. its not your role to pursue and agenda, you're there to provide hourly services at the discretion of the customer and you need to demonstrate concrete value. to circle around, its this carefully negotiated per-task relationship that both removes the pain of trying to work around useless colleagues and eliminates any reward you might feel for shaping a product. this is not your party, you're just serving canapes.

rubicon33 9y ago

I want to highlight something that the article touched on, which for me, was a big source of burnout. "Breakdown of community" This can happen if you work remotely, or work in-office with a team that isn't collaborating effectively. If the work you do is isolating and you rarely collaborate with others, you may suffer burnout. At our core we all want to feel like we're part of something bigger than ourselves. Being part of a team, even if it's as contrived as an office team is, can still be surprisingly important for ones mental health. If you're feeling burned out consider if a lack of engagement with your peers could be a contributor. That's my 0.02 at least.

tannerc 9y ago
Poor collaboration within a small team is something I'm experiencing now, and it's devastating. Would be curious to hear if you found a way out, or a way to improve collaboration within a currently flawed group.
- gxespino 9y ago
  Second that request for how to deal with poor collaboration within teams.
- rubicon33 9y ago
  That's a tough question to provide a meaningful answer to without understanding the source of the problem. Conflicts and lack of collaboration on teams can be the result of a number of factors each requiring a unique approach. In general it's the responsibility of the manager to monitor the health of the team as a unit. If you have a manager it may be worth bringing this issue to their attention and working with them to find a solution. The manager has the authority, and should have the respect, to make the necessary changes to your team dynamics to improve collaboration. What this means for your team, depends entirely on what the source of the problem is. For as much as managers get a bad rap in the tech community, they really do have an important job. Steering the ship and ensuring the wellbeing of the team is their number one priority. A good manager should be open to your comments and appreciate the opportunity to work with you to increase valuable collaboration. If you don't have a manager then you may need to wear the manager hat. My recommendation in this case - not knowing you or your team - would be to identify the source of the collaboration breakdown, and then reach out to your colleagues to see if they feel the same way. Assuming everyone on your team is cordial, they should be open to a discussion on how to promote a collaborative environment. If your teammates are NOT cordial, well, you've got an entirely different problem on your hands...

bholdr 9y ago

Very interesting and very nicely written! I was thinking about this myself lately (https://medium.com/@yansh/who-do-you-want-to-be-in-life-ca8ffa3d72e7 https://medium.com/@yansh/who-do-you-want-to-be-in-life-ca8f...).. I think the advice to slow down, take a break, refocus is key to figuring things out, however, not everyone can afford to do so. It's a risk, and there is always a trade off. So I wouldn't frame the article as a guide, because it's different for everyone.

cerberusss 9y ago
> however, not everyone can afford to do so So start saving. This was actually my biggest takeaway from the article. The couple had more than 6 months of living costs stashed away, which I think is a very good idea.
- bholdr 9y ago
  yes, a great advice but might not be a viable option for everyone.

mkalygin 9y ago

Recently I was feeling very frustrated about my work, about what I do in my life. This was lasting for about 1 month. I've noticed that in such periods I compare myself to others and intentionally think that I'm worse. Like literally the most useless person in the world. Usually I find any particular metric (even meaningless) and compare. This is very self-destructing activity. What helps me in fight with burnout is realising what my strong sides are. I just try to do what I'm good at, and I stop comparing myself to others because of obvious evidence that I'm not. And of course I get more rest, more sleep and switch to creative hobby activities more often. Like an author, I reevaluate my goals and priorities and become in sync with my life again.

Bakary 9y ago
I've heard about this thought process often and I feel that the root cause is that tying your self-worth to your "usefulness" to others or to society at large is ultimately self-defeating.
- ahartman00 9y ago
  see this recent discussion: "Self-Compassion Works Better Than Self-Esteem" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14314958

milesf 9y ago

A nurse once told me "burnout is actually heartache in disguise". While I don't complete agree with that statement, I think there's some truth in it.

kornakiewicz 9y ago

One of my favourite quotes from Edward Sapir (known for Sapir-Whorf hypothesis): The major activities of the individual must directly satisfy his own creative and emotional impulses, must always be something more than means to an end. The great cultural fallacy of industrialism, as developed up to the present time, is that in harnessing machines to our uses it has not known how to avoid the harnessing of the majority of mankind to its machines. The telephone girl who lends her capacities, during the greater part of the living day, to the manipulation of a technical routine that has an eventually high efficiency value but that answers to no spiritual needs of her own is an appalling sacrifice to civilisation. As a solution of the problem of culture she is a failure — the more dismal the greater her natural endowment. As with the telephone girl, so, it is to be feared, with the great majority of us, slave-stokers to fires that burn for demons we would destroy, were it not that they appear in the guise of our benefactors. The American Indian who solves the economic problem with salmon-spear and rabbit-snare operates on a relatively low level of civilisation, but he represents an incomparably higher solution than our telephone girl of the questions that culture has to ask of economics. There is here no question of the immediate utility, of the effective directness, of economic effort, nor of any sentimentalizing regrets as to the passing of the "natural man." The Indian's salmon-spearing is a culturally higher type of activity than that of the telephone girl or mill hand simply because there is normally no sense of spiritual frustration during its prosecution, no feeling of subservience to tyrannous yet largely inchoate demands, because it works in naturally with all the rest of the Indian's activities instead of standing out as a desert patch of merely economic effort in the whole of life. A genuine culture cannot be defined as a sum of abstractly desirable ends, as a mechanism. It must be looked upon as a sturdy plant growth, each remotest leaf and twig of which is organically fed by the sap at the core. And this growth is not here meant as a metaphor for the group only; it is meant to apply as well to the individual. A culture that does not build itself out of the central interests and desires of its bearers, that works from general ends to the individual, is an external culture. The word "external," which is so often instinctively chosen to describe such a culture, is well chosen. The genuine culture is internal, it works from the individual to ends.

erikpukinskis 9y ago
Yet this is one of the central business models of Silicon Valley: build a software apparatus, hire "interchangeable" women to take care of the human side of it, pay them "market rates" which for women's work means "the lowest acceptable wage for at least one woman in the social class your customers expect" (they're interchangeable, any woman could follow the script. The hard part is building The Apparatus that tells them what to do. So we pay men big bucks to build The Apparatus). It's all built on the fundamental belief that the work these ladies are doing is interchangeable while the men's work is not. Is that really true though? And of course sometimes you find a pool of men who will let you treat them interchangeably too...

throwaway8800 9y ago

I think the most striking thing about burnout is that, in my experience, it actually takes time to recover from it. Like a wound that requires healing. It wasn't a situation where you simply remove a stressor and everything automatically gets better. A problem was created in my brain and it took a long time before I was functioning properly again.

atulatul 9y ago
Good point. And this is the thing I noticed most in the article. Have read a few other articles here in the past. But here the author stressed this point.

Karupan 9y ago

As someone recently diagnosed with depression and anxiety, this stuck a chord. For me the hardest step was to prioritize my health over my job and force myself to get help. Fortunately, have some savings like the author and am taking a break for a while. Thanks for this timely post!

soulnothing 9y ago

I've burnt out on several occasions. I'm currently battling with it right now. Part of it is my career has regressed in pay and challenge year over year. I can barely accept doing something relatively pointless. But I need to grow or challenge myself to some extent. In the long run, I work to pay the bills. I have a million other things I want to do. But what do you do when both your personal and professional life collapse at the same time. That's the boat I'm in right now. As soon as I'm done with work. I practically start working on salvaging what I can of my personal life. I forcefully have dragged myself to the doctors. But am not getting much help as of yet from that field.

soulnothing 9y ago

phoenixProgram 9y ago

jews: you are depressed and burned out me: put on a show jews: what show? me: jews starving to death

abhi152 9y ago

I feel that this is a over simplified version of a much deeper problem and cannot be concluded based on the experience of the Author alone. There are many things that cause burnout and many different reasons that cause depression. In the case of author the Work did it but there are people in this world who get burnt out because of sickness of their loved ones or even because of ambition & their vision. Interestingly the word depression is not even mentioned in the article.

6841iam 9y ago

the author of the post really grabbed my attention for his slick copy to get my to sign up for his mailing list. as soon as you get on the list he has a link to a tweet he wants you to RT. excellent copy, very good marketing and product skills. I'm going to be following this author because he could be onto something.

manmal 9y ago

It has already been said that burnout can stem from a "bad boss", i.e. abusive, or your work is not appreciated. I think it can also stem from not having a (perceived) choice. If your worldview forces you to do this exact job ("I'm only good at this particular job", "I would lose my/our home for lack of money", "My parents would not approve me quitting"), then this can kill your enthusiasm, and also result in a burnout. And it will spread, and infect other areas of your life, and you might wonder why you are actually here. Just building up a choice can help a lot. This could be an alternative career that earns less, but you realize that you can actually get by on less. Or you make the decision that your parents' approval is not something you need anymore. Given a choice, the fun might or might not return. I'm pivoting to design for this very reason. I love building things, and I'm good (maybe great) at software, but programming is just not an activity I feel comfortable doing all day.

sethx 9y ago

Software engineer here. I've been working on meaningless and emotionally unrewarding project for the last 2 years. Running burnout self-tests this morning yielded me the second most critical level, but still worthy of "act immediately" or "seek medical attention". I feel pretty down and my dayjob is meaningless to me. I'm considering taking a sick leave till the end of my contract next month, and am wondering this: If burnout is caused by lack of emotional reward and lack of giving a f*ck, should i pick up a sideproject I've committed to that i kind of care about instead, and think is interesting? Or ditch that as well and just take rest/go travel? Can i still work while recovering? What's a good workload?

ahartman00 9y ago
"I feel pretty down and my dayjob is meaningless to me" Do you have hobbies? There's many to choose from :) Ask yourself, what does have meaning to you? There is more to life than a job. "should i pick up a sideproject I've committed to that i kind of care about instead, and think is interesting?" This might be a good idea. If you would find it meaningful and emotionally rewarding. "Or ditch that as well and just take rest/go travel?" Is there someplace you have always wanted to go? Rest is good, but it sounds like you aren't overworked, as much as just not being stimulated. As far as I can tell. "Can i still work while recovering? What's a good workload?" If you have the savings, I wouldn't. "I'm considering taking a sick leave till the end of my contract next month" If you absolutely need to. But it might mean not getting a good reference. Can you stick it out(assuming you dont already have another lined up)?

spangry 9y ago

This article really resonates with me. I burned out badly around 2 years ago and have still not recovered. 2 years. Although it's probably exacerbated by pre-existing chronic depression in my case. It's cost me so much. My friends, who I've all alienated. My general physical health, which is the worst it's ever been in my adult life. Strained family relationships. Gaining a reputation for being 'unreliable'. If you notice that feeling of exhaustion/frustration creeping up on you, even though objectively what you're doing shouldn't be that strenuous, stop. Stop right there and take a long break. Don't tell yourself "I'll just close out this project and then take a break". Just stop. The extra couple of months of work you might be able to force out of yourself are not worth the years of hell that may follow.

chmike 9y ago

This is very interesting. The site is nice but I miss the opportunity to provide feedback to the author. It's frustrating. To recover from a burnout I have seen that it can be helpful to keep track of achievements. In depression or burnout very simple things become very exhausting. Keeping track of the little things we manage to achieve are like small victories. When we measure and display in a graphic all the things we achieved, we objectivate things and see progress which give back trust and power. It's a vertuous circle. Objectivation is important because we tend to see only the negative side of things, and especially ourselves.

noyes 9y ago

The reason you are suffering is because you aren't living your life based on an understanding of your predicament. Fool me once shame on you and fool me twice shame on me. So don't get fooled again. And don't forget to remind yourself it's all just a stupid game. Just like musical chairs.