8 ms·

If you don't provide opportunity and a good civil environment to brilliant/enterprising people, they will find a way elsewhere. And once Vancouver or any other

If you don't provide opportunity and a good civil environment to brilliant/enterprising people, they will find a way elsewhere. And once Vancouver or any other city starts working for them, Silicon Valley will lose its exclusivity. The thing to note here is that this response from YC is not a political one, but a response that came out of market demand; it is pretty significant if it works out.

kafkaesq 10y ago
The thing to note here is that this response from YC is not a political one, Indeed. It wasn't formulated as political -- but the intrinsically the move does have significant political import (as a form of "voting with one's feet", as it were). Which has the potential to send signals that signs, slogans and marches (alone) cannot.
- caf 10y ago
  Voice versus Exit.
- TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
  A large reason many people are pushing back against globalism is _because_ of this thinking -- capitalism is blind to political movements, quality of life for its people, or growing inequality. All that matters is the bottom line. If it's cheaper to do it elsewhere, it will move there. But if this leads to yet continued wealth inequality while the laborers work for less in worse conditions, is it a good thing that it created more wealth in the process? I know that example is an extreme one, but it is an example that is being seen throughout the country. Middle class jobs are being shipped overseas or supplanted by exploited H-1B visa holders. Lower class jobs are being displaced by illegal immigrants willing to do the job for below minimum wage. These are serious issues, and issues that will not be solved in a global economy where the bottom line is king.
  - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
    The problem is that it is the US that has been forcing this down on other countries for decades if not centuries. And the US society benefited a lot from this. Read up on the Perry expedition.
    - TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
      Is the problem that the US has been doing it? I would argue that, with the internet, massively increased global communication, and a massively different economy from 1853 when the Perry expedition occurred, the problem isn't that the US used to do it long ago when imperialism was the norm, but rather that this form of globalist capitalism is becoming the norm worldwide, to the detriment of the lower and middle classes across the world.
      - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        There are winners and losers but overall economists agree free trade is good. http://econpapers.repec.org/article/tafjeduce/v_3a34_3ay_3a2003_3ai_3a4_3ap_3a369-387.htm http://econpapers.repec.org/article/tafjeduce/v_3a34_3ay_3a2... In any trade system, there will be losers.
        kafkaesq 10y ago
        Do they, now? From the abstract we only read that (according to the authors) there is some kind of consensus: Consensus is particularly strong for propositions of free international trade and capital flows. But as to what that consensus (in particular, as to whether the effects of free trade are "good", "bad", or "mixed") -- we would need to dig into the full text of the article, which is available only to subscribers. And anyway that "consensus" was from 2003, and a lot has shifted in the universe since then -- particularly in regard to the question of whether free trade is still a pretty neat idea, or not.
        cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        Do you have better more recent studies? Will gladly take it.
  - mapleoin 10y ago
    In this case, though, isn't it working against those consequences that you mention? YC's contribution to a non-US company, in terms of guidance, doors opened etc., might be bigger than the money they get back through selling their share of the startups. This will be a net-negative for the US economy and would have created wealth, elevated working conditions etc. elsewhere in the world.
    - lkbm 10y ago
      > In this case, though, isn't it working against those consequences that you mention? YC's contribution to a non-US company, in terms of guidance, doors opened etc., might be bigger than the money they get back through selling their share of the startups. YC's existence is based on that not being the case, on average. This is a negative for the US economy not because YC is losing money, but because if we'd let these companies start in the US, we've be getting significantly more of the gains.
  - intended 10y ago
    Well it's hard to say that America has not significantly benefitted from it. And the gains in the countries which supply the West with their goods are also significant. So the world on average is significantly better off. I think the issue today is 1) the huge disparity of the wealth distribution within that average. 2) the inability of human beings as meat space constructs to adapt to those changes. You can't train everyone to be programmers, and as you remove the niches for arts, soft sciences and so on, you remove the ability for the non mathematically inclined to find meaningful, gainful employment.
dominotw 10y ago
Been hearing this since late nineties about how inability to get visas is going to be the death of US tech industry. Absolutely nothing has changed since h1b visa was initially implemented, its almost exactly the same when as it was conceived. And yet U.S tech industry is not dead.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- drc511 10y ago
  Whats happening is response to current available alternatives(solutions ) , which was not exploited in 90s
- pjmlp 10y ago
  In the late 90's working remotely wasn't a thing for most of us. Nowadays it is pretty common in any major corporation, and has opened the door for offshoring all sorts of projects.
- kamaal 10y ago
  >>And yet U.S tech industry is not dead. Well not dead, but definitely lost out on total world domination. There isn't much difference though. If you settle for a draw after once being in a unbeatable position, its as good as a loss.
- klipt 10y ago
  > Absolutely nothing has changed since h1b visa was initially implemented They've changed a bunch of things, including at one point tripling the number of visas available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Changes_to_legal_and_administrative_rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Changes_to_legal_and...
- geff82 10y ago
  Honestly, if the US had generally a welcoming visa/immigrant policy, I and most startup founders would not even think to set up my company elsewhere as it is in some regards "the center of the world". But as the US gets a more and more unwelcoming image, other places like London, Berlin or Vancouver rise. Of course tech in the USA is not dead and will not be any time soon. But it could be attracting much more talent if it was more open and easier to get into. Look at Dubai: you want to found a company in Internet Zone? Go there, found the company, get your visas in a simple process, move over. The fees are high, but it is straight forward. That is how it should be in the US. I know there are investor visas, but it is a difficult process with an open end. And then there is stuff like the random travel ban, which, for example, makes it impossible to take my wife (Iranian) with me.
pascalxus 10y ago
But, this could also be quite positive for the bay area. By reducing the number of jobs, It might finally provide the housing relief the bay area so desperately needs.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Yes, I often save time on household chores by burning my home to the ground instead.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  If the bay area continues its absurd aversion to adding housing or transportation, some other cities are definitely going to eventually pick off all the jobs till the bay area looks like Detroit or 1970s New York. You can stay #1 just by already being #1, exploiting the chicken-and-egg problem, for a while, but not forever.
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    San Francisco provided good jobs way before the tech revolution. I would bet they had better union jobs before tech moved in. You could always live in the outlying areas to commute, and not spend all your money on rent. Tech bosses decided they liked San Francisco, and the rich enclaves like Marin County. They decided to set up shop, and hire like no tomorrow. I have never seen more money just thrown away, except in certain areas of government. This did make things worse for a lot of workers. I don't want to say blue collar workers because a lot of you fancy yourselfs as white collar. White collar will always be able to move across the county and find a new shiny job? The problem is your not really white collar. This bubble will end. All those frameworks you memorized will become useless. You will be eventually looking for a union job, or any job. Good luck. Yes--San Francisco has always been a tough housing market. I think tech needs to worry about where they are going to move to when the current party is over. I'm for better transportation, and more low income housing. All I'm saying is the influx of tech workers did not make the Bay Area better for a lot of us. Tech moved fast and loud, and did disrupt life. It kicked out many with the Ellision Act. It added to traffic. Many displaced workers who didn't look like a young Bill Gates couldn't get that shiny new job. Even those that could probally do a good job.
acchow 10y ago
How will Vancouver improve its weather? California has a powerful draw...
- martin1975 10y ago
  Winters are mild in Vancouver. What kills anyone who wasn't born there is the nearly yearlong overcast gloom... Sunshine is a necessary ingredient to feeling good. Coffee is just a temp fix.
  - justinhj 10y ago
    I don't mind Vancouvers overcast gloom at all because it's such a beautiful place to live. I'm from rural England though.
- dpc59 10y ago
  Winter is great when you prepare accordingly.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    The skiing conditions near Vancouver are significantly better than near San Francisco, year-round.
- brianorwhatever 10y ago
  A little bit of rain is a small price to pay for not having massive drought problems
  - astrodust 10y ago
    In an era of declining fresh-water reserves, being somewhere rainy is a good thing.
  - martin1975 10y ago
    We got so much rain in CA this year, the drought is nearly gone now. You can import water, but you can't import sunshine :)
bbcbasic 10y ago
> If you don't provide opportunity and a good civil environment to brilliant/enterprising people, they will find a way elsewhere. While I am not certain how true this is in general, it is for me anecdotally. I have no intention of wanting to emigrate and work in SF based on what I have learned on HN. I like the idea of choosing a city based on what i want from that city then doing what I want to do there. Not living somewhere for a one dimensional 'job opportunity' and otherwise hating it.
interlocutor 10y ago
Microsoft and Amazon already station employees who can't get a US work visa in Vancouver, Canada: https://www.quora.com/I-am-placed-in-Microsoft-US-and-am-unable-to-get-an-H1B-visa-What-will-MS-do-in-these-cases https://www.quora.com/I-am-placed-in-Microsoft-US-and-am-una...
HillaryBriss 10y ago
> And once Vancouver or any other city starts working for them, Silicon Valley will lose its exclusivity. Silicon Valley doesn't have exclusivity. It has startup funding. It's all about the money, not weather, not talent, not Berkeley, not Stanford, not visa availability. It's about money.
trentmb 10y ago
> And once Vancouver or any other city starts working for them, Silicon Valley will lose its exclusivity. I fail to see the problem.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jeena 10y ago
So all in all it's a good thing for everyone but Silicon Valley, suddenly bright people will stop clumbin in SF but start working, paying taxes and spending their money back home. They will not need to move to a different country and keep their social net, etc.
- yousry 10y ago
  This was the illusory hope of many of us in the beginning of the IT revolution. Work from anywhere, connected with everybody and the equal distribution of wealth.
eloisant 10y ago
Unfortunately Trump and his supporters hate Silicon Valley so much they might not have a problem with that.
__derek__ 10y ago
> The thing to note here is that this response from YC is not a political one, but a response that came out of market demand At base, this is an expression of YC's disagreement with the Administration's positions on immigration. It's saying that the imposition of even more onerous visa restrictions is misguided because it prevents from entering people who would make valuable contributions to American society. That is political.
randiantech 10y ago
I would believe this is not political if YC would have done this in the past. Its not that Visa issues to enter US is something brought by Trump administration. In any case, I celebrate the decision.

kafkaesq 10y ago

The thing to note here is that this response from YC is not a political one, Indeed. It wasn't formulated as political -- but the intrinsically the move does have significant political import (as a form of "voting with one's feet", as it were). Which has the potential to send signals that signs, slogans and marches (alone) cannot.

caf 10y ago
Voice versus Exit.
TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
A large reason many people are pushing back against globalism is _because_ of this thinking -- capitalism is blind to political movements, quality of life for its people, or growing inequality. All that matters is the bottom line. If it's cheaper to do it elsewhere, it will move there. But if this leads to yet continued wealth inequality while the laborers work for less in worse conditions, is it a good thing that it created more wealth in the process? I know that example is an extreme one, but it is an example that is being seen throughout the country. Middle class jobs are being shipped overseas or supplanted by exploited H-1B visa holders. Lower class jobs are being displaced by illegal immigrants willing to do the job for below minimum wage. These are serious issues, and issues that will not be solved in a global economy where the bottom line is king.
- cscurmudgeon 10y ago
  The problem is that it is the US that has been forcing this down on other countries for decades if not centuries. And the US society benefited a lot from this. Read up on the Perry expedition.
  - TheAdamAndChe 10y ago
    Is the problem that the US has been doing it? I would argue that, with the internet, massively increased global communication, and a massively different economy from 1853 when the Perry expedition occurred, the problem isn't that the US used to do it long ago when imperialism was the norm, but rather that this form of globalist capitalism is becoming the norm worldwide, to the detriment of the lower and middle classes across the world.
    - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
      There are winners and losers but overall economists agree free trade is good. http://econpapers.repec.org/article/tafjeduce/v_3a34_3ay_3a2003_3ai_3a4_3ap_3a369-387.htm http://econpapers.repec.org/article/tafjeduce/v_3a34_3ay_3a2... In any trade system, there will be losers.
      - kafkaesq 10y ago
        Do they, now? From the abstract we only read that (according to the authors) there is some kind of consensus: Consensus is particularly strong for propositions of free international trade and capital flows. But as to what that consensus (in particular, as to whether the effects of free trade are "good", "bad", or "mixed") -- we would need to dig into the full text of the article, which is available only to subscribers. And anyway that "consensus" was from 2003, and a lot has shifted in the universe since then -- particularly in regard to the question of whether free trade is still a pretty neat idea, or not.
        cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        Do you have better more recent studies? Will gladly take it.
- mapleoin 10y ago
  In this case, though, isn't it working against those consequences that you mention? YC's contribution to a non-US company, in terms of guidance, doors opened etc., might be bigger than the money they get back through selling their share of the startups. This will be a net-negative for the US economy and would have created wealth, elevated working conditions etc. elsewhere in the world.
  - lkbm 10y ago
    > In this case, though, isn't it working against those consequences that you mention? YC's contribution to a non-US company, in terms of guidance, doors opened etc., might be bigger than the money they get back through selling their share of the startups. YC's existence is based on that not being the case, on average. This is a negative for the US economy not because YC is losing money, but because if we'd let these companies start in the US, we've be getting significantly more of the gains.
- intended 10y ago
  Well it's hard to say that America has not significantly benefitted from it. And the gains in the countries which supply the West with their goods are also significant. So the world on average is significantly better off. I think the issue today is 1) the huge disparity of the wealth distribution within that average. 2) the inability of human beings as meat space constructs to adapt to those changes. You can't train everyone to be programmers, and as you remove the niches for arts, soft sciences and so on, you remove the ability for the non mathematically inclined to find meaningful, gainful employment.

dominotw 10y ago

Been hearing this since late nineties about how inability to get visas is going to be the death of US tech industry. Absolutely nothing has changed since h1b visa was initially implemented, its almost exactly the same when as it was conceived. And yet U.S tech industry is not dead.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
drc511 10y ago
Whats happening is response to current available alternatives(solutions ) , which was not exploited in 90s
pjmlp 10y ago
In the late 90's working remotely wasn't a thing for most of us. Nowadays it is pretty common in any major corporation, and has opened the door for offshoring all sorts of projects.
kamaal 10y ago
>>And yet U.S tech industry is not dead. Well not dead, but definitely lost out on total world domination. There isn't much difference though. If you settle for a draw after once being in a unbeatable position, its as good as a loss.
klipt 10y ago
> Absolutely nothing has changed since h1b visa was initially implemented They've changed a bunch of things, including at one point tripling the number of visas available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Changes_to_legal_and_administrative_rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Changes_to_legal_and...
geff82 10y ago
Honestly, if the US had generally a welcoming visa/immigrant policy, I and most startup founders would not even think to set up my company elsewhere as it is in some regards "the center of the world". But as the US gets a more and more unwelcoming image, other places like London, Berlin or Vancouver rise. Of course tech in the USA is not dead and will not be any time soon. But it could be attracting much more talent if it was more open and easier to get into. Look at Dubai: you want to found a company in Internet Zone? Go there, found the company, get your visas in a simple process, move over. The fees are high, but it is straight forward. That is how it should be in the US. I know there are investor visas, but it is a difficult process with an open end. And then there is stuff like the random travel ban, which, for example, makes it impossible to take my wife (Iranian) with me.

pascalxus 10y ago

But, this could also be quite positive for the bay area. By reducing the number of jobs, It might finally provide the housing relief the bay area so desperately needs.

anigbrowl 10y ago
Yes, I often save time on household chores by burning my home to the ground instead.
galdosdi 10y ago
If the bay area continues its absurd aversion to adding housing or transportation, some other cities are definitely going to eventually pick off all the jobs till the bay area looks like Detroit or 1970s New York. You can stay #1 just by already being #1, exploiting the chicken-and-egg problem, for a while, but not forever.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  San Francisco provided good jobs way before the tech revolution. I would bet they had better union jobs before tech moved in. You could always live in the outlying areas to commute, and not spend all your money on rent. Tech bosses decided they liked San Francisco, and the rich enclaves like Marin County. They decided to set up shop, and hire like no tomorrow. I have never seen more money just thrown away, except in certain areas of government. This did make things worse for a lot of workers. I don't want to say blue collar workers because a lot of you fancy yourselfs as white collar. White collar will always be able to move across the county and find a new shiny job? The problem is your not really white collar. This bubble will end. All those frameworks you memorized will become useless. You will be eventually looking for a union job, or any job. Good luck. Yes--San Francisco has always been a tough housing market. I think tech needs to worry about where they are going to move to when the current party is over. I'm for better transportation, and more low income housing. All I'm saying is the influx of tech workers did not make the Bay Area better for a lot of us. Tech moved fast and loud, and did disrupt life. It kicked out many with the Ellision Act. It added to traffic. Many displaced workers who didn't look like a young Bill Gates couldn't get that shiny new job. Even those that could probally do a good job.

acchow 10y ago

How will Vancouver improve its weather? California has a powerful draw...

martin1975 10y ago
Winters are mild in Vancouver. What kills anyone who wasn't born there is the nearly yearlong overcast gloom... Sunshine is a necessary ingredient to feeling good. Coffee is just a temp fix.
- justinhj 10y ago
  I don't mind Vancouvers overcast gloom at all because it's such a beautiful place to live. I'm from rural England though.
dpc59 10y ago
Winter is great when you prepare accordingly.
- astrodust 10y ago
  The skiing conditions near Vancouver are significantly better than near San Francisco, year-round.
brianorwhatever 10y ago
A little bit of rain is a small price to pay for not having massive drought problems
- astrodust 10y ago
  In an era of declining fresh-water reserves, being somewhere rainy is a good thing.
- martin1975 10y ago
  We got so much rain in CA this year, the drought is nearly gone now. You can import water, but you can't import sunshine :)

bbcbasic 10y ago

> If you don't provide opportunity and a good civil environment to brilliant/enterprising people, they will find a way elsewhere. While I am not certain how true this is in general, it is for me anecdotally. I have no intention of wanting to emigrate and work in SF based on what I have learned on HN. I like the idea of choosing a city based on what i want from that city then doing what I want to do there. Not living somewhere for a one dimensional 'job opportunity' and otherwise hating it.

interlocutor 10y ago

Microsoft and Amazon already station employees who can't get a US work visa in Vancouver, Canada: https://www.quora.com/I-am-placed-in-Microsoft-US-and-am-unable-to-get-an-H1B-visa-What-will-MS-do-in-these-cases https://www.quora.com/I-am-placed-in-Microsoft-US-and-am-una...

HillaryBriss 10y ago

> And once Vancouver or any other city starts working for them, Silicon Valley will lose its exclusivity. Silicon Valley doesn't have exclusivity. It has startup funding. It's all about the money, not weather, not talent, not Berkeley, not Stanford, not visa availability. It's about money.

trentmb 10y ago

> And once Vancouver or any other city starts working for them, Silicon Valley will lose its exclusivity. I fail to see the problem.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jeena 10y ago

So all in all it's a good thing for everyone but Silicon Valley, suddenly bright people will stop clumbin in SF but start working, paying taxes and spending their money back home. They will not need to move to a different country and keep their social net, etc.

yousry 10y ago
This was the illusory hope of many of us in the beginning of the IT revolution. Work from anywhere, connected with everybody and the equal distribution of wealth.

eloisant 10y ago

Unfortunately Trump and his supporters hate Silicon Valley so much they might not have a problem with that.

__derek__ 10y ago

> The thing to note here is that this response from YC is not a political one, but a response that came out of market demand At base, this is an expression of YC's disagreement with the Administration's positions on immigration. It's saying that the imposition of even more onerous visa restrictions is misguided because it prevents from entering people who would make valuable contributions to American society. That is political.

randiantech 10y ago

I would believe this is not political if YC would have done this in the past. Its not that Visa issues to enter US is something brought by Trump administration. In any case, I celebrate the decision.