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The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get s

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know, the H-1b system has primarily been used to arbitrage for lower wage by Indian companies and mostly non-tech big corporates, where they bring in $60k/yr "systems analysts" who are in fact doing $100,000+/yr software engineering roles.

gizmo 10y ago
Unfortunately this salary requirement means immigration will turn even more into a pay-to-play kind of deal. If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities. America was built on "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", and this H-1B change is another step away from that.
- jordanb 10y ago
  "Give me your tired, etc" is fulfilled through the DV lottery program, and support for refugees (now sadly suspended). Temporary Worker Visas have always been about providing foreign labor to American corporations to fix real or imaginary labor shortages.
  - waqf 10y ago
    "Fulfilled", except for the bit where it's a lottery. "Give me your tired, etc., and bet their future on red maybe six or seven times in a row. If they win every time, send them on. Otherwise screw them."
- vivekd 10y ago
  Well H1-b is for temporary foreign workers, so the restrictions would be on the companies hiring foreign workers rather than the immigrants themselves. Personally I think H1-b visas for lower end workers are just an excuse for companies who want to treat their workers poorly by offering lower wages and benefits than they would get with American workers. And of course that contributes to unemployment among low income Americans who would otherwise have these jobs. By all means we can have a mechanism that is more indifferent to money when we look at other categories of immigration.
- wagecuck 10y ago
  >If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities. That is exactly how it should work. If you don't have anything to offer the country, and no existing ties, why should you be let in?
conanbatt 10y ago
Probably they have been doing well below 100kU$S in benefits, because surely if they cant land a 100k gig and can land a 60k one, they have lower skills. Its reasonable to feel discontent with such companies, but if there were free movement of people working lawfully they would still be compelled to hire immigrants. Its only frowned upon because the government said so. If the government says you can get H1B's with 50k salary, we wouldnt be talking about it.
- dublinben 10y ago
  As long as there is a cap on these visas, they should be distributed in the most efficient manner, i.e. through an auction. Anything else is wasteful.
  - conanbatt 10y ago
    The question would be why have a cap at all.
    - technofiend 10y ago
      There is no reason if one is OK with a nearly unlimited supply of cheap labor pricing out local competition and/or depressing wages. If a hypothetical person thinks "free markets über allies" of course they're fine with unlimited visas depressing wages and increasing competition. (I don't know if that's your view, this is just a hypothetical.) On the other hand old farts like me already have an advantage over the average HN or Reddit reader in that our education cost far less than theirs. So the the question becomes is it fair to bring in foreign talent who (for example) may have been educated at little or no cost to compete with Americans buried under a mound of student debt?
      - conanbatt 10y ago
        I'd say it doesnt matter if they were educated or not, only if they can work in the US, which means they provide value to the economy, because they produce more than what they cost. If someone is educated and paid for it himself or with the generosity of another state, why does it matter? Saying that bringing employees drops wages salaries is similar to saying the US shouldnt export things because it increases the price of local goods. Its simply not good from an economic perspective, its not really up for debate. I've never heard an economist saying immigration is bad economically for a country at any level except living on welfare.
cortuso 10y ago
I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ? As is now, H1B. Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so. So...who will come to the college from overseas to study and brig their passion and ideas on this land ? This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams. Cutting that idea off, putting the country and society in the mood of "preservation", could result in dangerous outcome, as society is not ready for that. This is not Europe and will never be, the rules that work there are not applicable on this land. There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing. It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.
- cpursley 10y ago
  > I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?
  - cortuso 10y ago
    It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not about problem of lack of open positions, what this new idea aims to solve, it's about a will to do that job or not. Still, I'm talking about IT sector. In other areas of life things may be way different.
jordanb 10y ago
I agree H1s should get Green Cards much faster. The visa employee should also have more flexibility in changing jobs, including when his GC is being processed. I don't like the "staple a green card" proposals for anyone who gets a STEM masters degree though. Many US Universities have already turned into masters degree mills for people trying to get visas. If Universities were allowed to sell Green Cards the problem would become much much worse.
- lukeschlather 10y ago
  That sounds like a problem (if it is a problem) that should be addressed by limiting the number of student visas, not by allowing people to get a valuable US education and then telling them to go home. I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens. Maybe universities are becoming green card mills, but in my experience everyone who goes to a US university gets exactly what they bargained for. The law may say otherwise, but in spirit they become Americans.
  - karmelapple 10y ago
    Limiting the number of student visas will limit the amount of income for universities, though, so it will be fought at the institutional level. If someone has spent multiple years - especially their undergrad AND graduate years - in the USA, and they are interested in permanent residence, why would we tell that person to leave? If that person can select a job just like a US citizen without fear of getting deported, that more or less levels the playing field, correct? They don't have to take sub-industry-standard wages, and can instead hold out for the right job in the right place.
    - mcguire 10y ago
      Even if it's not a tech job?
      - pm90 10y ago
        I guess this is a personal opinion, and I definetly do have a skin in the game being an immigrant, but I do sincerely believe that studying in an American university is kind of a life changing experience (it was for me!). Its not like everyone who comes here wants to live here: a lot of my friends went back, mostly because they like to be near their families, like to live amid their own culture. So if someone does decide to stay here, it does mean a certain amount of commitment and sacrifice. Studying and living in the US is kind of like a trial run: some people like it and others don't. So for those who do, who are well educated, willing to contribute to the American economy and society, it feels like a shame to kick them out.
whatever_dude 10y ago
The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here. A point/demand-based system like other countries have is probably wise, but given the share of mind the US still has in potential emigrants worldwide, and the breadth of different positions available, it'd be a pretty complex (and likely unfair) one.
- jordanb 10y ago
  Many nations have special visa categories for native speakers of foreign languages working as teachers. If that's really a problem then having something like that would probably make more sense. Usually when I here someone critique the salary floor it's in reference to poorly paid scientists or biologists, as if it's a law of nature that these people should be poorly paid.
- 542458 10y ago
  > If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!
  - edge17 10y ago
    http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...
    - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
      Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad. The first cultural, linguistic, or otherwise geographically-constrained job in the list is #84, "Foreign Language And Literature Teachers." "Interpreters and Translators" is down at #131, with a grand total of 268 applicants - practically a rounding error after 300,000 tech applicants. Whatever_dude's example seems so appropriate, that it's shocking to see it so far down the list.
amykhar 10y ago
The minimum salary could be industry based. For example, 150% of the average wage for that field. If the point of these visas is to bring in talent that America doesn't have, that shouldn't be a problem. These people should be paid above average salaries if they are truly a scarce resource.
- mdorazio 10y ago
  How do you prevent loopholes based on industry classification and job switching? Ex. what's going to stop a company from hiring a lower-minimum "design" worker and then having them do 10% design and 90% writing code? We have to assume that companies will attempt to abuse the system any way they can, so a simpler blanket setup for everyone is going to be much more effective than attempting a nuanced setup that would require even more oversight. As others have pointed out, it would be better to create separate visas with stricter limits for industries that really need them, like high-level interpreters.
pcarolan 10y ago
How much would this system get gamed? This could just turn into a Visa store for elites.
AnAnonyCowherd 10y ago
Where I work, they're filling roles of what would have been called an engineering clerk, back in the old days. Jobs for which a BS is an over-qualification. The visa holders are vastly underpaid for their education level, while people who would be a better fit can't get their foot in the door, and get a huge boost to their income, because they don't have a degree. I think the "as we all know" is that big corporations use the visa program to create, in essence, indentured servitude. People who work for far less than the market-clearing wage for the position, because are beholden to their corporate sponsor. I find it reprehensible, and particularly galling that it's all done in the name of "diversity." Most visa holders are young and incredibly vulnerable. Combine this with my particular company's absolutely legendarily capricious hire-and-fire cycle (for 30+ years), and they can really stick it to immigrants working for them via subcontracting.
- Roboprog 10y ago
  That's exactly it: indentured servants. I wonder if Canada's immigration policy that Microsoft is holding up is geared toward indentured servanthood, or citizenship?
  - mavelikara 10y ago
    Canada has a point based system which ties the visa to the employee not the employer. Also there are straightforward paths to citizenship.
    - Roboprog 10y ago
      Thanks. And I see from the downvote on my comment above that it is offensive to suggest that Canada might have a policy that favors the employee more than the employer. Mussolini would be proud of these pro-employer watchdogs...
randomname2 10y ago
It seems this is about to happen soon, a draft of this new executive order was leaked and viewed by Axios yesterday [1]: "A draft of Trump's executive order viewed by Axios directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to consider ways to "make the process of H-1B allocation more efficient and ensure the beneficiaries of the program are the best and the brightest." That could mean replacing the current lottery system with one that prioritizes visas for jobs promising the highest salaries." "What it means for tech: In theory, prioritizing by salaries means visas for more senior, higher-paying jobs will be granted first, and visas for lower-paying jobs (such as those being filled by Indian IT services firms) would fall to the back of line, perhaps not getting allocated at all if demand for the high-wage job visas is strong." "But there's a catch: Wage-based hiring means companies may miss out on mid-level workers they still have trouble filling with qualified Americans. For example, software engineering jobs will be filled quickly, but jobs for network engineers or tech support that tend to skew lower on the pay scale could be tough to fill without H-1B visas. "The demand in the job market is not always captured by the highest salary," said one tech lobbyist. So tech companies are advocating for worker skill-set to be taken into account in addition to salary alone." [1] https://www.axios.com/h1-b-salaries-2228205505.html https://www.axios.com/h1-b-salaries-2228205505.html
- cylinder 10y ago
  Tech support tough to fill without H1B? Give me a break! What a crock. Unless they mean "tough to fill at $8/hr."
- hamburglar1 10y ago
  "Wage-based hiring means companies may miss out on mid-level workers they still have trouble filling with qualified Americans." This seems a bit ridiculous. Yea, they will miss mid-level workers at the current price point but if there is a lack of supply of mid-level works the price (salary) will rise for Americans and the supply of mid-level Americans will begin to increase. A win-win for mid-level Americans... not a win-win for the Tech Companies though
- harterrt 10y ago
  > "The demand in the job market is not always captured by the highest salary," I don't see how we can have the combination of low salary, high demand, and a deficit of supply. It sounds like the proper economic adjustment here is to increase salary. I imagine the only reason the adjustment hasn't happened is because wages are sticky.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
>To date, as we all know, the H-1b system has primarily been used to arbitrage for lower wage by Indian companies This isn't really true, or it is, but only in high profile yet minority cases. H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. So now your IT department is 12 people instead of 20. That's significant cost savings even if you're matching salaries. H1B's aren't typically paid less, they're worked like dogs instead. They can't easily migrate to a new employer, thus the abuse. This is the problem that needs fixing the most. The salary issue is secondary and something of a red herring as you can raise salaries but still have this abuse and it will do nothing for American workers who have been victimized by H1B abusers. I don't see Trump or anyone addressing the indentured servitude aspects H1B creates. Considering most H1B's are clearing 80-120k, codifying 100k or more will do next to nothing. Worse, the only H1B bill I see has a 130k suggested salary but which can be contested and you can bet every HR company will do that. These bills are mostly smoke and mirrors. H1B needs to be either completely scrapped or be re-done under a new program to allow H1B holders to switch jobs easily. Ideallym, if these people are truly hard to find hires they should be put on a fast path to naturalization and all costs paid for by the employer instead of this weird middle ground H1B currently creates where you're supposed to be super valuable but naturalization is up in the air. If it costs, say, $250k or more per head to bring them as a flat-fee and to express naturalize them, that'll stop abusive hiring I imagine. Corporations really need to have more skin in the game here and H1B's need to be naturalized quickly to avoid second class status.
- ElysianEagle 10y ago
  Agreed 100%. People seem to be focused entirely on the salary aspect, but my observations match yours quite well. I've worked for almost 10 years in the industry and with numerous H1-Bs, and I can't recall anyone being underpaid in total comp (I've had discussions on pay with a good number of them). However, they were always the yes-men - working long into the night to meet some ridiculous deadline, remoting in on weekends because the boss needed something done etc etc.
- Gargoyle 10y ago
  >H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. If the native workers won't stand for it, the wages for it aren't actually "near competitive".
pinaceae 10y ago
Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners pouring into tech? Where are the great US coders willing to move to the CA Bay Area? I don't see them. Indians, Chinese, Russians, Ukranians, yes. 3rd generation mid-westerners? crickets. ( I did move my family, from Europe to the US. ) The US education system does not generate enough coders. It's too bad before college, too expensive in college. Decent to great public school systems in those other countries take up that slack. You restrict foreigners joining tech and the sector grinds to a halt. The US population on a macro level right now is simply too uneducated to run it.
- geebee 10y ago
  Can we agree that the US citizens who are capable of becoming programmers are making a rational economic decision to do something else? If so, why hasnt tech competed successfully for them? I think open offices, poor autonomy, career issues as you cross 40, and so forth, have played a big role here. Even salaries arent remarkable compared to what skilled and intelligent people can earn in other fields. I think that if tech is having trouble hiring, they should learn to compete. I see no reason to create a program that allows tech companies to force an immigrant to study CS and work a a dev as a condition of living and working in the US.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- wagecuck 10y ago
  Pay more. You'll find the talent you need.
- peterchon 10y ago
  Why can't you hire remote employees? is it imperative that the employee be present? Considering that SF is the most expensive place to live, why would anyone want to move there? especially if you have family?
karshan 10y ago
I think, not refunding the application fee in the event of a denial might be a better solution. It acts as a rate-limit, disincentivising Indian companies from applying for many H1B's.
davidw 10y ago
Picking magic numbers is the antithesis of a free market approach for a free country. Make sure people aren't criminals, and tie certain visa types to being mostly self-supporting, but people don't come to the US for the vast social welfare programs. They come for the opportunities and to work. http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
trollpan2 10y ago
Wow, such passive racism on HN. H1b is mostly targeted because it is associated with Indians. Are those sweet Canadians not stealing American jobs on TN visa ? Are your Australian mates not getting american jobs on E-3 visa ? Oh wait, they look white so no problem. But you see bunch of brown folks suddenly moving into your neighbourhood and think.. Geez.. These foreignours took'urrr'job. Yes, like any government program, it is been abused but there are more than enough high paying jobs available in Tech. Indians are one of the richest demographics in USA. If Indians are such a low wage misers, what happens overnight ? Only solution of h1b visa is to allow free movement of switching jobs. Right now a h1b worker is practically a slave of his/her employer which companies like TCS, Infosys exploits freely.
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Also the diversity lottery based green card needs to be replaced. Those 50K/year slots would go a long way towards alleviating employment based green card shortages.

gizmo 10y ago

Unfortunately this salary requirement means immigration will turn even more into a pay-to-play kind of deal. If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities. America was built on "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", and this H-1B change is another step away from that.

jordanb 10y ago
"Give me your tired, etc" is fulfilled through the DV lottery program, and support for refugees (now sadly suspended). Temporary Worker Visas have always been about providing foreign labor to American corporations to fix real or imaginary labor shortages.
- waqf 10y ago
  "Fulfilled", except for the bit where it's a lottery. "Give me your tired, etc., and bet their future on red maybe six or seven times in a row. If they win every time, send them on. Otherwise screw them."
vivekd 10y ago
Well H1-b is for temporary foreign workers, so the restrictions would be on the companies hiring foreign workers rather than the immigrants themselves. Personally I think H1-b visas for lower end workers are just an excuse for companies who want to treat their workers poorly by offering lower wages and benefits than they would get with American workers. And of course that contributes to unemployment among low income Americans who would otherwise have these jobs. By all means we can have a mechanism that is more indifferent to money when we look at other categories of immigration.
wagecuck 10y ago
>If you have money (or skills/education) borders disappear and if you're broke you're stuck in a place that offers no decent opportunities. That is exactly how it should work. If you don't have anything to offer the country, and no existing ties, why should you be let in?

conanbatt 10y ago

Probably they have been doing well below 100kU$S in benefits, because surely if they cant land a 100k gig and can land a 60k one, they have lower skills. Its reasonable to feel discontent with such companies, but if there were free movement of people working lawfully they would still be compelled to hire immigrants. Its only frowned upon because the government said so. If the government says you can get H1B's with 50k salary, we wouldnt be talking about it.

dublinben 10y ago
As long as there is a cap on these visas, they should be distributed in the most efficient manner, i.e. through an auction. Anything else is wasteful.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  The question would be why have a cap at all.
  - technofiend 10y ago
    There is no reason if one is OK with a nearly unlimited supply of cheap labor pricing out local competition and/or depressing wages. If a hypothetical person thinks "free markets über allies" of course they're fine with unlimited visas depressing wages and increasing competition. (I don't know if that's your view, this is just a hypothetical.) On the other hand old farts like me already have an advantage over the average HN or Reddit reader in that our education cost far less than theirs. So the the question becomes is it fair to bring in foreign talent who (for example) may have been educated at little or no cost to compete with Americans buried under a mound of student debt?
    - conanbatt 10y ago
      I'd say it doesnt matter if they were educated or not, only if they can work in the US, which means they provide value to the economy, because they produce more than what they cost. If someone is educated and paid for it himself or with the generosity of another state, why does it matter? Saying that bringing employees drops wages salaries is similar to saying the US shouldnt export things because it increases the price of local goods. Its simply not good from an economic perspective, its not really up for debate. I've never heard an economist saying immigration is bad economically for a country at any level except living on welfare.

cortuso 10y ago

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ? As is now, H1B. Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so. So...who will come to the college from overseas to study and brig their passion and ideas on this land ? This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams. Cutting that idea off, putting the country and society in the mood of "preservation", could result in dangerous outcome, as society is not ready for that. This is not Europe and will never be, the rules that work there are not applicable on this land. There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing. It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.

cpursley 10y ago
> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?
- cortuso 10y ago
  It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not about problem of lack of open positions, what this new idea aims to solve, it's about a will to do that job or not. Still, I'm talking about IT sector. In other areas of life things may be way different.

jordanb 10y ago

I agree H1s should get Green Cards much faster. The visa employee should also have more flexibility in changing jobs, including when his GC is being processed. I don't like the "staple a green card" proposals for anyone who gets a STEM masters degree though. Many US Universities have already turned into masters degree mills for people trying to get visas. If Universities were allowed to sell Green Cards the problem would become much much worse.

lukeschlather 10y ago
That sounds like a problem (if it is a problem) that should be addressed by limiting the number of student visas, not by allowing people to get a valuable US education and then telling them to go home. I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens. Maybe universities are becoming green card mills, but in my experience everyone who goes to a US university gets exactly what they bargained for. The law may say otherwise, but in spirit they become Americans.
- karmelapple 10y ago
  Limiting the number of student visas will limit the amount of income for universities, though, so it will be fought at the institutional level. If someone has spent multiple years - especially their undergrad AND graduate years - in the USA, and they are interested in permanent residence, why would we tell that person to leave? If that person can select a job just like a US citizen without fear of getting deported, that more or less levels the playing field, correct? They don't have to take sub-industry-standard wages, and can instead hold out for the right job in the right place.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    Even if it's not a tech job?
    - pm90 10y ago
      I guess this is a personal opinion, and I definetly do have a skin in the game being an immigrant, but I do sincerely believe that studying in an American university is kind of a life changing experience (it was for me!). Its not like everyone who comes here wants to live here: a lot of my friends went back, mostly because they like to be near their families, like to live amid their own culture. So if someone does decide to stay here, it does mean a certain amount of commitment and sacrifice. Studying and living in the US is kind of like a trial run: some people like it and others don't. So for those who do, who are well educated, willing to contribute to the American economy and society, it feels like a shame to kick them out.

whatever_dude 10y ago

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here. A point/demand-based system like other countries have is probably wise, but given the share of mind the US still has in potential emigrants worldwide, and the breadth of different positions available, it'd be a pretty complex (and likely unfair) one.

jordanb 10y ago
Many nations have special visa categories for native speakers of foreign languages working as teachers. If that's really a problem then having something like that would probably make more sense. Usually when I here someone critique the salary floor it's in reference to poorly paid scientists or biologists, as if it's a law of nature that these people should be poorly paid.
542458 10y ago
> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!
- edge17 10y ago
  http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=OC http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...
  - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
    Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad. The first cultural, linguistic, or otherwise geographically-constrained job in the list is #84, "Foreign Language And Literature Teachers." "Interpreters and Translators" is down at #131, with a grand total of 268 applicants - practically a rounding error after 300,000 tech applicants. Whatever_dude's example seems so appropriate, that it's shocking to see it so far down the list.

amykhar 10y ago

The minimum salary could be industry based. For example, 150% of the average wage for that field. If the point of these visas is to bring in talent that America doesn't have, that shouldn't be a problem. These people should be paid above average salaries if they are truly a scarce resource.

mdorazio 10y ago
How do you prevent loopholes based on industry classification and job switching? Ex. what's going to stop a company from hiring a lower-minimum "design" worker and then having them do 10% design and 90% writing code? We have to assume that companies will attempt to abuse the system any way they can, so a simpler blanket setup for everyone is going to be much more effective than attempting a nuanced setup that would require even more oversight. As others have pointed out, it would be better to create separate visas with stricter limits for industries that really need them, like high-level interpreters.

pcarolan 10y ago

How much would this system get gamed? This could just turn into a Visa store for elites.

AnAnonyCowherd 10y ago

Where I work, they're filling roles of what would have been called an engineering clerk, back in the old days. Jobs for which a BS is an over-qualification. The visa holders are vastly underpaid for their education level, while people who would be a better fit can't get their foot in the door, and get a huge boost to their income, because they don't have a degree. I think the "as we all know" is that big corporations use the visa program to create, in essence, indentured servitude. People who work for far less than the market-clearing wage for the position, because are beholden to their corporate sponsor. I find it reprehensible, and particularly galling that it's all done in the name of "diversity." Most visa holders are young and incredibly vulnerable. Combine this with my particular company's absolutely legendarily capricious hire-and-fire cycle (for 30+ years), and they can really stick it to immigrants working for them via subcontracting.

Roboprog 10y ago
That's exactly it: indentured servants. I wonder if Canada's immigration policy that Microsoft is holding up is geared toward indentured servanthood, or citizenship?
- mavelikara 10y ago
  Canada has a point based system which ties the visa to the employee not the employer. Also there are straightforward paths to citizenship.
  - Roboprog 10y ago
    Thanks. And I see from the downvote on my comment above that it is offensive to suggest that Canada might have a policy that favors the employee more than the employer. Mussolini would be proud of these pro-employer watchdogs...

randomname2 10y ago

It seems this is about to happen soon, a draft of this new executive order was leaked and viewed by Axios yesterday [1]: "A draft of Trump's executive order viewed by Axios directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to consider ways to "make the process of H-1B allocation more efficient and ensure the beneficiaries of the program are the best and the brightest." That could mean replacing the current lottery system with one that prioritizes visas for jobs promising the highest salaries." "What it means for tech: In theory, prioritizing by salaries means visas for more senior, higher-paying jobs will be granted first, and visas for lower-paying jobs (such as those being filled by Indian IT services firms) would fall to the back of line, perhaps not getting allocated at all if demand for the high-wage job visas is strong." "But there's a catch: Wage-based hiring means companies may miss out on mid-level workers they still have trouble filling with qualified Americans. For example, software engineering jobs will be filled quickly, but jobs for network engineers or tech support that tend to skew lower on the pay scale could be tough to fill without H-1B visas. "The demand in the job market is not always captured by the highest salary," said one tech lobbyist. So tech companies are advocating for worker skill-set to be taken into account in addition to salary alone." [1] https://www.axios.com/h1-b-salaries-2228205505.html https://www.axios.com/h1-b-salaries-2228205505.html

cylinder 10y ago
Tech support tough to fill without H1B? Give me a break! What a crock. Unless they mean "tough to fill at $8/hr."
hamburglar1 10y ago
"Wage-based hiring means companies may miss out on mid-level workers they still have trouble filling with qualified Americans." This seems a bit ridiculous. Yea, they will miss mid-level workers at the current price point but if there is a lack of supply of mid-level works the price (salary) will rise for Americans and the supply of mid-level Americans will begin to increase. A win-win for mid-level Americans... not a win-win for the Tech Companies though
harterrt 10y ago
> "The demand in the job market is not always captured by the highest salary," I don't see how we can have the combination of low salary, high demand, and a deficit of supply. It sounds like the proper economic adjustment here is to increase salary. I imagine the only reason the adjustment hasn't happened is because wages are sticky.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

>To date, as we all know, the H-1b system has primarily been used to arbitrage for lower wage by Indian companies This isn't really true, or it is, but only in high profile yet minority cases. H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. So now your IT department is 12 people instead of 20. That's significant cost savings even if you're matching salaries. H1B's aren't typically paid less, they're worked like dogs instead. They can't easily migrate to a new employer, thus the abuse. This is the problem that needs fixing the most. The salary issue is secondary and something of a red herring as you can raise salaries but still have this abuse and it will do nothing for American workers who have been victimized by H1B abusers. I don't see Trump or anyone addressing the indentured servitude aspects H1B creates. Considering most H1B's are clearing 80-120k, codifying 100k or more will do next to nothing. Worse, the only H1B bill I see has a 130k suggested salary but which can be contested and you can bet every HR company will do that. These bills are mostly smoke and mirrors. H1B needs to be either completely scrapped or be re-done under a new program to allow H1B holders to switch jobs easily. Ideallym, if these people are truly hard to find hires they should be put on a fast path to naturalization and all costs paid for by the employer instead of this weird middle ground H1B currently creates where you're supposed to be super valuable but naturalization is up in the air. If it costs, say, $250k or more per head to bring them as a flat-fee and to express naturalize them, that'll stop abusive hiring I imagine. Corporations really need to have more skin in the game here and H1B's need to be naturalized quickly to avoid second class status.

ElysianEagle 10y ago
Agreed 100%. People seem to be focused entirely on the salary aspect, but my observations match yours quite well. I've worked for almost 10 years in the industry and with numerous H1-Bs, and I can't recall anyone being underpaid in total comp (I've had discussions on pay with a good number of them). However, they were always the yes-men - working long into the night to meet some ridiculous deadline, remoting in on weekends because the boss needed something done etc etc.
Gargoyle 10y ago
>H1B abuse is more about hiring someone at near competitive wages and telling them they're working 60 hour weeks and slowly getting rid of native workers who won't stand for that. If the native workers won't stand for it, the wages for it aren't actually "near competitive".

pinaceae 10y ago

Riddle me this: We're hiring massively (SF East Bay), have a really hard time finding suitable, qualified candidates (from Java backend to native apps on iOS, Android, Windows). And even our junior devs make more than your new floor in base pay, not even counting RSUs. If I would start filtering out H1B transfers (and other visa types), my hiring pipeline would be empty. Where are the former Pennsylvanian coal miners pouring into tech? Where are the great US coders willing to move to the CA Bay Area? I don't see them. Indians, Chinese, Russians, Ukranians, yes. 3rd generation mid-westerners? crickets. ( I did move my family, from Europe to the US. ) The US education system does not generate enough coders. It's too bad before college, too expensive in college. Decent to great public school systems in those other countries take up that slack. You restrict foreigners joining tech and the sector grinds to a halt. The US population on a macro level right now is simply too uneducated to run it.

geebee 10y ago
Can we agree that the US citizens who are capable of becoming programmers are making a rational economic decision to do something else? If so, why hasnt tech competed successfully for them? I think open offices, poor autonomy, career issues as you cross 40, and so forth, have played a big role here. Even salaries arent remarkable compared to what skilled and intelligent people can earn in other fields. I think that if tech is having trouble hiring, they should learn to compete. I see no reason to create a program that allows tech companies to force an immigrant to study CS and work a a dev as a condition of living and working in the US.
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wagecuck 10y ago
Pay more. You'll find the talent you need.
peterchon 10y ago
Why can't you hire remote employees? is it imperative that the employee be present? Considering that SF is the most expensive place to live, why would anyone want to move there? especially if you have family?

karshan 10y ago

I think, not refunding the application fee in the event of a denial might be a better solution. It acts as a rate-limit, disincentivising Indian companies from applying for many H1B's.

davidw 10y ago

Picking magic numbers is the antithesis of a free market approach for a free country. Make sure people aren't criminals, and tie certain visa types to being mostly self-supporting, but people don't come to the US for the vast social welfare programs. They come for the opportunities and to work. http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

trollpan2 10y ago

Wow, such passive racism on HN. H1b is mostly targeted because it is associated with Indians. Are those sweet Canadians not stealing American jobs on TN visa ? Are your Australian mates not getting american jobs on E-3 visa ? Oh wait, they look white so no problem. But you see bunch of brown folks suddenly moving into your neighbourhood and think.. Geez.. These foreignours took'urrr'job. Yes, like any government program, it is been abused but there are more than enough high paying jobs available in Tech. Indians are one of the richest demographics in USA. If Indians are such a low wage misers, what happens overnight ? Only solution of h1b visa is to allow free movement of switching jobs. Right now a h1b worker is practically a slave of his/her employer which companies like TCS, Infosys exploits freely.

maverick_iceman 10y ago

Also the diversity lottery based green card needs to be replaced. Those 50K/year slots would go a long way towards alleviating employment based green card shortages.