8 ms·

At what scale? I pay roughly $3/hr for welding in china.

chinathrow 11y ago
And you feel pride? Seriously, 3$/h? Assumming that a large junk goes to the shop owner, that's not a lot to make each month.
- Thriptic 11y ago
  You are assuming cost of living is the same in both places, which it isn't.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    I am not assuming that no. But I could assume that the welding is done in Shenzhen (maybe GP chips in where he sources welding at 3$/h?). http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=China&city=Shenzhen&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country... That hourly rate wouldn't even covering rent of an 1-bedroom apt outside of centre.
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    Speaking from a Chinese perspective, $3/hr in China today is still very low. That's like 3000 RMB for a 9-5 blue collar (which doesn't really happen as many workers work between 12-16 hours a day). But there are just so many expenses you cannot avoid while living in China as a Chinese... $3000 - $5000 is barely enough.
    - hebdo 11y ago
      Wait, what. I've lived in Beijing in 2013. You can live off 3000RMB/month = 500USD/month. That's far from being rich, but also not barely survivable. Everything was cheap for me, and I'm from Poland.
      - yeukhon 11y ago
        I specifically said living in China as a Chinese, so to be exact here Chinese means the Chinese local with family. I don't know much the life of foreigners / immigrants and how well they integrate into the society, but usually there are * wedding gift * "business" expense that you did out of your pocket (take your co-workers to lunch, buying gift for your clients) * gifts (giving red envelopes during Chinese New Year, friend / elder birthday) * rent * personal saving * family support (especially supporting your parents) * medical expense (for a lot of people they have to pay before they can see a doctor) Here is an article http://business.sohu.com/20131210/n391561808.shtml http://business.sohu.com/20131210/n391561808.shtml. Many people can only afford a tiny room today in the city and this depressing phenomenon is coined "蝸居" (snail house, about 10 square feet, and sometimes less, or sharing that tiny space with two or more people), and has been televised and documented multiple times (e.g. a TV drama called 蝸居 was made a couple years ago). If you are a blue collar working at a city far away from your hometown, you have to go back to your hometown at least once a year (during new year break), and usually it is expected that you have to get a lot of gifts from the city for your family and your neighbors (to thank your neighbors for helping your family / keeping an eye on your family in your absence). You can almost say the Chinese culture is all about showing gratitude with gifts, this is why e-commerce is such a big deal in China (also why foreign brands like Apple can make so much money in China ;-))
        hebdo 11y ago
        Interesting. So what is, in your opinion, the percentage of earnings an average Chinese spends on maintaining/extending his "Guanxi" and on supporting his parents/presents for relatives? I am asking about these two specifically because they make the biggest difference between the "western" culture and the Chinese culture. The other items on your list also appear in the lives of the citizens of many European/European based countries.
      - hunvreus 11y ago
        I'm sure you can live in many places with even less than that, but claiming that you were not merely surviving with 3,000 RMB/month is delusional. Costs in the large Chinese cities (which includes Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen) has been steadily increasing over the past couple decades. It can still be seen as cheaper to live depending on what you compare it to (e.g. SF) but to give a point of reference, Shenzhen is on par with Berlin in terms of cost of living (http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/shenzhen/berlin? http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/shenzhen...). Shanghai is actually more expensive than Berlin too, Beijing is slightly cheaper. I couldn't have comfortably lived in Shanghai back in 2005 with 3,000 RMB, and I'm extremely frugal (I don't drink, don't smoke, don't go out and my main hobbies include working out and reading).
- chrischen 11y ago
  What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizing from your pedestal of inaction. I assume you used a throwaway because you didn't want to attribute that to your personal identity. Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization, granted at the detriment of American jobs. However it forced American jobs to be more information focused. And if you're Chinese you should understand that. If you're American you can be proud you helped lift a country from the third world into the second.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    I am neither US nor chinese but I know that 3$/h is not a rate I wish anyone these days. Anywhere. Simple, eh?
    - mjfl 11y ago
      China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? edit: This is an honest question.
      - Gigablah 11y ago
        Describing China as "communist" is like describing the US as a "democracy".
      - hackuser 11y ago
        > China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? They are not actually communist; they are an authoritarian state controlling a capitalist economy. They started down that path in the late 1970s under Deng Xiaopeng. Before that, the state did a very poor job caring for its citizens. Millions died of starvation, persecution, and other ills. Look up the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, two government programs, as examples. After that, probably never in the history of humanity have so many in a time and place escaped poverty as those who have in China. However, the country is so large that there are still many that are very poor.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
npalli 11y ago
Labor is only 5% of the total manufacturing cost. Even if you pay $0/hr in china, the (lack of) cost of transportation + low price of oil/gas due to fracking makes the total cost lower. Though it seems to be true for energy intensive heavy industries ("energy intensive industries such as steel, aluminum, paper and petrochemicals"), not sure it works for low skilled commodity or labor intensive industries.
nickpinkston 11y ago
Looks like they're talking about more energy costs & also productivity advances relative to other countries. This means more that cost of inputs (materials, transport of them, etc.) for hardware will go down in the US, while at the same time companies are getting more efficient per worker - reducing our exposure to foreign cheap labor. Re: Welding - We're actually seeing a lot of advances in automated welding setup, etc. that will allow robots in the US to compete with Chinese welders.
gregpilling 11y ago
I have a Panasonic Ya 102 welding cell that will do it for much cheaper. I have one part we make with it that has 12 cents of human labor per part, based on a $30 per hour operator cost. Automation keeps getting cheaper and better, too.

And you feel pride? Seriously, 3$/h? Assumming that a large junk goes to the shop owner, that's not a lot to make each month.

Thriptic 11y ago
You are assuming cost of living is the same in both places, which it isn't.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  I am not assuming that no. But I could assume that the welding is done in Shenzhen (maybe GP chips in where he sources welding at 3$/h?). http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=China&city=Shenzhen&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country... That hourly rate wouldn't even covering rent of an 1-bedroom apt outside of centre.
- yeukhon 11y ago
  Speaking from a Chinese perspective, $3/hr in China today is still very low. That's like 3000 RMB for a 9-5 blue collar (which doesn't really happen as many workers work between 12-16 hours a day). But there are just so many expenses you cannot avoid while living in China as a Chinese... $3000 - $5000 is barely enough.
  - hebdo 11y ago
    Wait, what. I've lived in Beijing in 2013. You can live off 3000RMB/month = 500USD/month. That's far from being rich, but also not barely survivable. Everything was cheap for me, and I'm from Poland.
    - yeukhon 11y ago
      I specifically said living in China as a Chinese, so to be exact here Chinese means the Chinese local with family. I don't know much the life of foreigners / immigrants and how well they integrate into the society, but usually there are * wedding gift * "business" expense that you did out of your pocket (take your co-workers to lunch, buying gift for your clients) * gifts (giving red envelopes during Chinese New Year, friend / elder birthday) * rent * personal saving * family support (especially supporting your parents) * medical expense (for a lot of people they have to pay before they can see a doctor) Here is an article http://business.sohu.com/20131210/n391561808.shtml http://business.sohu.com/20131210/n391561808.shtml. Many people can only afford a tiny room today in the city and this depressing phenomenon is coined "蝸居" (snail house, about 10 square feet, and sometimes less, or sharing that tiny space with two or more people), and has been televised and documented multiple times (e.g. a TV drama called 蝸居 was made a couple years ago). If you are a blue collar working at a city far away from your hometown, you have to go back to your hometown at least once a year (during new year break), and usually it is expected that you have to get a lot of gifts from the city for your family and your neighbors (to thank your neighbors for helping your family / keeping an eye on your family in your absence). You can almost say the Chinese culture is all about showing gratitude with gifts, this is why e-commerce is such a big deal in China (also why foreign brands like Apple can make so much money in China ;-))
      - hebdo 11y ago
        Interesting. So what is, in your opinion, the percentage of earnings an average Chinese spends on maintaining/extending his "Guanxi" and on supporting his parents/presents for relatives? I am asking about these two specifically because they make the biggest difference between the "western" culture and the Chinese culture. The other items on your list also appear in the lives of the citizens of many European/European based countries.
    - hunvreus 11y ago
      I'm sure you can live in many places with even less than that, but claiming that you were not merely surviving with 3,000 RMB/month is delusional. Costs in the large Chinese cities (which includes Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen) has been steadily increasing over the past couple decades. It can still be seen as cheaper to live depending on what you compare it to (e.g. SF) but to give a point of reference, Shenzhen is on par with Berlin in terms of cost of living (http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/shenzhen/berlin? http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/shenzhen...). Shanghai is actually more expensive than Berlin too, Beijing is slightly cheaper. I couldn't have comfortably lived in Shanghai back in 2005 with 3,000 RMB, and I'm extremely frugal (I don't drink, don't smoke, don't go out and my main hobbies include working out and reading).
chrischen 11y ago
What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizing from your pedestal of inaction. I assume you used a throwaway because you didn't want to attribute that to your personal identity. Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization, granted at the detriment of American jobs. However it forced American jobs to be more information focused. And if you're Chinese you should understand that. If you're American you can be proud you helped lift a country from the third world into the second.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  I am neither US nor chinese but I know that 3$/h is not a rate I wish anyone these days. Anywhere. Simple, eh?
  - mjfl 11y ago
    China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? edit: This is an honest question.
    - Gigablah 11y ago
      Describing China as "communist" is like describing the US as a "democracy".
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? They are not actually communist; they are an authoritarian state controlling a capitalist economy. They started down that path in the late 1970s under Deng Xiaopeng. Before that, the state did a very poor job caring for its citizens. Millions died of starvation, persecution, and other ills. Look up the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, two government programs, as examples. After that, probably never in the history of humanity have so many in a time and place escaped poverty as those who have in China. However, the country is so large that there are still many that are very poor.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

npalli 11y ago

Labor is only 5% of the total manufacturing cost. Even if you pay $0/hr in china, the (lack of) cost of transportation + low price of oil/gas due to fracking makes the total cost lower. Though it seems to be true for energy intensive heavy industries ("energy intensive industries such as steel, aluminum, paper and petrochemicals"), not sure it works for low skilled commodity or labor intensive industries.

nickpinkston 11y ago

Looks like they're talking about more energy costs & also productivity advances relative to other countries. This means more that cost of inputs (materials, transport of them, etc.) for hardware will go down in the US, while at the same time companies are getting more efficient per worker - reducing our exposure to foreign cheap labor. Re: Welding - We're actually seeing a lot of advances in automated welding setup, etc. that will allow robots in the US to compete with Chinese welders.

gregpilling 11y ago

I have a Panasonic Ya 102 welding cell that will do it for much cheaper. I have one part we make with it that has 12 cents of human labor per part, based on a $30 per hour operator cost. Automation keeps getting cheaper and better, too.