8 ms·

Facebook raises minimum pay for contractors to $15 per hour

69 points by var_eps 11y ago

vivab0rg 11y ago
One would be forgiven to think a company like Facebook, with a market cap of 224.82B, would pay a little more?
- thfuran 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure $15/hr and 3 weeks paid vacation is extremely good for janitorial work.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    Not in this area. $15/hr means that at paying a third of your gross (not net) pay in rent, you'll not afford anything anywhere near the facebook campuses, and will barely afford anything at all in the bay area. [1] The real estate market in this area is amazingly dysfunctional; the working class cannot live here. [1] http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=833&bedrooms=1 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=833&bedrooms=1
    - netcan 11y ago
      But if you already in he area, it may work. Some people own houses, live with family, are students or have some arrangement that takes rent out of the equation.
    - twblalock 11y ago
      Even so, $15/hr might be more than the average pay for janitorial work in this area. And there are plenty of working class people living here. Were you under the impression that the working class people you see every day are all living somewhere else?
      - Sanddancer 11y ago
        $15/hr may be more than average, but it's still a crappy amount of pay given the cost of living here. I know that working class people live in the area, but a lot of them put up with a lot of conditions that most tech folks wouldn't. Converted garages, having multiple roommates, etc. They may live here, but it is close to bare minimum survival.
        nomel 11y ago
        Our neighbor had 5 roommates...in a one bedroom. The standard of living here is hilariously low.
- theli0nheart 11y ago
  Why would market cap have anything to do with it? Walmart has a larger market cap than Facebook ($239B) and pays $9 / hour to its workers [1]. [1]: http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/news/companies/walmart-wages/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/news/companies/walmart-wages...
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Walmart also makes significantly less per worker than Facebook.
    - francoisdevlin 11y ago
      Thus proving the point about market cap...
- mikeryan 11y ago
  In Facebook's defense, I doubt they have many minimum wage folks on staff. These are forcing their vendors, cleaning, catering etc. to pay a livable wage (undoubtedly Facebook will pay for this increase however). Its not something you normally pay attention too. I have a 8 person office in SF that I get cleaned weekly. I have no idea what those individuals are getting paid of the amount I pay to the cleaning service.
csbrooks 11y ago
Good for them! I like it.
someonefromsome 11y ago
Key point here... It would be interesting to see if they have anyone making less than that currently.
- mliker 11y ago
  >>>Contractors will also receive...a $4,000 new child benefit for parents who do not receive parental leave Contractors definitely did not receive that before...So that's another key point
  - someonefromsome 11y ago
    I like that one :-)
PaulHoule 11y ago
If you work four jobs like that you might be able to live in Fresno and commute on the back of a pick up truck to San Jose.
- pc86 11y ago
  $15/hr is a $30k a year FT job. Sure it's not going to make anybody wealthy. But I don't think there are many people making $120k a year commuting on the back of a pickup.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikeryan 11y ago
    $15/hr is a $30k a year FT job. Sure it's not going to make anybody wealthy. But I don't think there are many people making $120k a year commuting on the back of a pickup. I don't think the GP is saying folks are working 4 full time (40 hours per week) jobs to get up to 120k per year. I'm pretty sure 8 hours of sleep a week isn't feasible.
  - andrewljohnson 11y ago
    No way! It's more like a $15K/year job. 1) The tax treatment on 1099s is worse than for W2s 2) You're basing this on working (and billing) 2000 hours a year. That's not remotely reasonable, because contractors often have to spend time finding new jobs. Plus 2000 hours is grueling! That means a strict 2 weeks of vacation - no sick time, no Christmas, no nothing. This is not how a W2 worker is treated, and most W2 workers (especially knowledge workers) can't produce quality work for 8 hours per day, year-round.
    - zeroonetwothree 11y ago
      True, but contractors might also get overtime pay, so we can't just assume it's strictly worse. You also only have to actually work the hours you work, rather than working extra hours without extra pay.
    - 11y ago
nashashmi 11y ago
Maybe min. pay is supposed to be an entry level work. Duration will probably get you either directly hired or later laid off. If that is the situation, why would you pay more than $15/hr. Also, I wish there was a context of this "minimum pay" policy.
johnrob 11y ago
The real issue isn't wages - it's cost of living. If we really want to make people's lives better, we need to address whatever causes prices to increase (limited housing supply is probably the biggest culprit).
- gooseus 11y ago
  I was under the impression is was foreign demand for high yield real estate investment vehicles? I don't know a lot about real estate though.
Sanddancer 11y ago
For those wondering what this means, it means that a Facebook contractor would still be in the lowest quarter of income earners in Santa Clara County [1]. As such, one would qualify for rental assistance, etc from the county, as the going rate for a /studio/ is $1200/month [2]. The inflated wages of the tech industry have placed an unbearable burden on the average person. [1] http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/waiting-lists-applicants/income-limits/ http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/waiting-list... [2] http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/housing-choice-voucher-current-participants/voucher-payment-standard-fmr-utility-allowance/ http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/housing-choi...
- johnbabboozle 11y ago
  'Lowest quarter' is a huge range. I don't think it's scandalous that Facebook pays it's lowest skilled workers in the lowest quarter of wages. If I looked at actual pay and actual expenses I might agree, but lowest quarter isn't a good argument to make.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    The links have the pay and average expenses in them. Average pay for a studio is $1200/month, way out of the range a facebook contractor could afford.
    - johnbabboozle 11y ago
      Yeah but your headline was 'lowest quarter' as if that said it all. It's like those people who say it's a scandal that half the population earn below the average wage. Why would you expect someone who earns below average to be able to afford an average apartment? Do you know what average means and how averages work?
      - Sanddancer 11y ago
        I expect them to be able to afford /an/ apartment, which they cannot. Do a search on craigslist for apartments under $833, which is a third of their monthly income, and tell me how many apartments you see. Facebook's wage means their contractors are still essentially in poverty.
danbruc 11y ago
A really bold and fair move would be to pay them comparable to their developers and other staff. Of course not going to happen anytime soon.
- johnbabboozle 11y ago
  Why is that fair? They don't have the same education (in general), they aren't doing the same job, they don't contribute the same value, etc etc etc.
  - calibraxis 11y ago
    One dev (who I gave a plum job to) used exactly those arguments. When trying to dissuade me from helping marginalized coworkers with thieving bosses. I shrugged, and decided to stop helping his sociopathic entitled white male self. (And got him to occasionally help people nobler than him, as I had sufficient power to do so.)
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      > his sociopathic entitled white male self You're a bigot. You're a sexist and a racist. Flagged.
  - danbruc 11y ago
    Why should a developer working 40 hours a week earn more than say someone cleaning toilets 40 hours a week? Both are investing 40 hours of their time, both add value worth 40 hours of work. Actually cleaning toilets seems a way less pleasant job and should be paid better. On the other hand the developer spend more time in education not getting paid and has to recapture this investment. They would probably not end up with the exact same wages but I see no justification for enormous differences. The supply and demand situation is of course very different allowing developers to ask for high wages and on the other hand allows forcing the toilet cleaner to work for a low wage but this does by no means make this fair.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
nemmonszz 11y ago
Wow. It boggles my mind that any contractor working for Facebook would be making anything near that low.

69 points by var_eps 11y ago

vivab0rg 11y ago

One would be forgiven to think a company like Facebook, with a market cap of 224.82B, would pay a little more?

thfuran 11y ago
I'm pretty sure $15/hr and 3 weeks paid vacation is extremely good for janitorial work.
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  Not in this area. $15/hr means that at paying a third of your gross (not net) pay in rent, you'll not afford anything anywhere near the facebook campuses, and will barely afford anything at all in the bay area. [1] The real estate market in this area is amazingly dysfunctional; the working class cannot live here. [1] http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=833&bedrooms=1 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=833&bedrooms=1
  - netcan 11y ago
    But if you already in he area, it may work. Some people own houses, live with family, are students or have some arrangement that takes rent out of the equation.
  - twblalock 11y ago
    Even so, $15/hr might be more than the average pay for janitorial work in this area. And there are plenty of working class people living here. Were you under the impression that the working class people you see every day are all living somewhere else?
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      $15/hr may be more than average, but it's still a crappy amount of pay given the cost of living here. I know that working class people live in the area, but a lot of them put up with a lot of conditions that most tech folks wouldn't. Converted garages, having multiple roommates, etc. They may live here, but it is close to bare minimum survival.
      - nomel 11y ago
        Our neighbor had 5 roommates...in a one bedroom. The standard of living here is hilariously low.
theli0nheart 11y ago
Why would market cap have anything to do with it? Walmart has a larger market cap than Facebook ($239B) and pays $9 / hour to its workers [1]. [1]: http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/news/companies/walmart-wages/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/19/news/companies/walmart-wages...
- x5n1 11y ago
  Walmart also makes significantly less per worker than Facebook.
  - francoisdevlin 11y ago
    Thus proving the point about market cap...
mikeryan 11y ago
In Facebook's defense, I doubt they have many minimum wage folks on staff. These are forcing their vendors, cleaning, catering etc. to pay a livable wage (undoubtedly Facebook will pay for this increase however). Its not something you normally pay attention too. I have a 8 person office in SF that I get cleaned weekly. I have no idea what those individuals are getting paid of the amount I pay to the cleaning service.

csbrooks 11y ago

Good for them! I like it.

someonefromsome 11y ago

Key point here... It would be interesting to see if they have anyone making less than that currently.

mliker 11y ago
>>>Contractors will also receive...a $4,000 new child benefit for parents who do not receive parental leave Contractors definitely did not receive that before...So that's another key point
- someonefromsome 11y ago
  I like that one :-)

PaulHoule 11y ago

If you work four jobs like that you might be able to live in Fresno and commute on the back of a pick up truck to San Jose.

pc86 11y ago
$15/hr is a $30k a year FT job. Sure it's not going to make anybody wealthy. But I don't think there are many people making $120k a year commuting on the back of a pickup.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeryan 11y ago
  $15/hr is a $30k a year FT job. Sure it's not going to make anybody wealthy. But I don't think there are many people making $120k a year commuting on the back of a pickup. I don't think the GP is saying folks are working 4 full time (40 hours per week) jobs to get up to 120k per year. I'm pretty sure 8 hours of sleep a week isn't feasible.
- andrewljohnson 11y ago
  No way! It's more like a $15K/year job. 1) The tax treatment on 1099s is worse than for W2s 2) You're basing this on working (and billing) 2000 hours a year. That's not remotely reasonable, because contractors often have to spend time finding new jobs. Plus 2000 hours is grueling! That means a strict 2 weeks of vacation - no sick time, no Christmas, no nothing. This is not how a W2 worker is treated, and most W2 workers (especially knowledge workers) can't produce quality work for 8 hours per day, year-round.
  - zeroonetwothree 11y ago
    True, but contractors might also get overtime pay, so we can't just assume it's strictly worse. You also only have to actually work the hours you work, rather than working extra hours without extra pay.
  - 11y ago

nashashmi 11y ago

Maybe min. pay is supposed to be an entry level work. Duration will probably get you either directly hired or later laid off. If that is the situation, why would you pay more than $15/hr. Also, I wish there was a context of this "minimum pay" policy.

johnrob 11y ago

The real issue isn't wages - it's cost of living. If we really want to make people's lives better, we need to address whatever causes prices to increase (limited housing supply is probably the biggest culprit).

gooseus 11y ago
I was under the impression is was foreign demand for high yield real estate investment vehicles? I don't know a lot about real estate though.

Sanddancer 11y ago

For those wondering what this means, it means that a Facebook contractor would still be in the lowest quarter of income earners in Santa Clara County [1]. As such, one would qualify for rental assistance, etc from the county, as the going rate for a /studio/ is $1200/month [2]. The inflated wages of the tech industry have placed an unbearable burden on the average person. [1] http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/waiting-lists-applicants/income-limits/ http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/waiting-list... [2] http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/housing-choice-voucher-current-participants/voucher-payment-standard-fmr-utility-allowance/ http://www.hacsc.org/section-8-housing-programs/housing-choi...

johnbabboozle 11y ago
'Lowest quarter' is a huge range. I don't think it's scandalous that Facebook pays it's lowest skilled workers in the lowest quarter of wages. If I looked at actual pay and actual expenses I might agree, but lowest quarter isn't a good argument to make.
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  The links have the pay and average expenses in them. Average pay for a studio is $1200/month, way out of the range a facebook contractor could afford.
  - johnbabboozle 11y ago
    Yeah but your headline was 'lowest quarter' as if that said it all. It's like those people who say it's a scandal that half the population earn below the average wage. Why would you expect someone who earns below average to be able to afford an average apartment? Do you know what average means and how averages work?
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      I expect them to be able to afford /an/ apartment, which they cannot. Do a search on craigslist for apartments under $833, which is a third of their monthly income, and tell me how many apartments you see. Facebook's wage means their contractors are still essentially in poverty.

danbruc 11y ago

A really bold and fair move would be to pay them comparable to their developers and other staff. Of course not going to happen anytime soon.

johnbabboozle 11y ago
Why is that fair? They don't have the same education (in general), they aren't doing the same job, they don't contribute the same value, etc etc etc.
- calibraxis 11y ago
  One dev (who I gave a plum job to) used exactly those arguments. When trying to dissuade me from helping marginalized coworkers with thieving bosses. I shrugged, and decided to stop helping his sociopathic entitled white male self. (And got him to occasionally help people nobler than him, as I had sufficient power to do so.)
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    > his sociopathic entitled white male self You're a bigot. You're a sexist and a racist. Flagged.
- danbruc 11y ago
  Why should a developer working 40 hours a week earn more than say someone cleaning toilets 40 hours a week? Both are investing 40 hours of their time, both add value worth 40 hours of work. Actually cleaning toilets seems a way less pleasant job and should be paid better. On the other hand the developer spend more time in education not getting paid and has to recapture this investment. They would probably not end up with the exact same wages but I see no justification for enormous differences. The supply and demand situation is of course very different allowing developers to ask for high wages and on the other hand allows forcing the toilet cleaner to work for a low wage but this does by no means make this fair.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago

nemmonszz 11y ago

Wow. It boggles my mind that any contractor working for Facebook would be making anything near that low.