14 ms·

$2.25 Lyft line rides in SF

103 points by dafzal 12y ago

kevinkimball 12y ago
the 1-up-manship continues
- walru 12y ago
  At what point do drivers tap out? This match keeps cutting their hopes dimmer and dimmer.
  - ultimoo 12y ago
    These prices are sustained by Uber's and Lyft's VC money. Drivers still get the full fare.
  - rjbrock 12y ago
    Uber stated that the drivers are still getting what they would be getting without the $5 promo
  - kiyoto 12y ago
    So, I've been talking to a lot of Uber/Lyft drivers, and while I have no carefully tabulated data to quantify my point, I must say Lyft drivers complain less than Uber drivers (at least not explicitly) about their respective employers. This attitudinal difference is most acute when the driver drives for both: they generally like Lyft better for how the company treats them but are also on Uber to ensure steadier business.
    - jsprogrammer 12y ago
      I thought dogma was that drivers are not employees, but Independent Contractors? Meaning Uber/Lyft are not employers (of drivers), but more akin to a fancy home improvement parking lot?
      - icebraining 12y ago
        They're still employers, even if the drivers are independent contractors. The name doesn't change.
        jsprogrammer 12y ago
        They do employee people (office staff), but they are not employers of the drivers. It would be more accurate to call them the contractee. At least, this is the argument that Uber/Lyft will/does make to shield them from general liability for their contractors' actions as well as tax liability[1]. [1] http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...
- vessenes 12y ago
  Most drivers I meet have both apps running; I'm not sure this sort of competition is bad for drivers really. They will and can go where the customers are.
zobzu 12y ago
thats quite cheap if you go from one side of the square to the other.. which happens to be my case ;)
TheSwordsman 12y ago
Pretty neat idea. However, more glad that Lyft finally has the ability to split fare.
sbisker 12y ago
For those not in the SF area, this is almost certainly in response to this (unless Uber has a mole within Lyft...): http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty
Cherian 12y ago
I’ve been a regular Lyft Line user. Except for some cars that show up in pretty bad shape and smell, it’s a good experience. And I’ve had to wait much longer on an average. It’s heartening to see a company just focused on the “user” and not just world domination.
- closetnerd 12y ago
  I'm assuming you mean Uber is after "world domination"? But don't fool yourself, Lyft is the same, Uber is just better at it so Lyft has no choice but to fight back with $2.50 to Uber's $5 bucks flat. This isn't because the company is "focused on the user", it's because the company is focused on the competition. If that goes away (unlikely for Lyft to see Uber go away) don't expect high standards.
  - chc 12y ago
    Do you believe this because you know some inside information, or is this just a generic "All any company cares about is your money"-type platitude?
    - closetnerd 12y ago
      I'm saying all companies HAVE to care about your money but they don't have to care about you. Not unless you have competition. Laissez-faire
    - rkho 12y ago
      Companies exist to make money. Some don't say it outright and focus on the user experience, which brings more money (i.e. Apple). Others focus directly on the bottom line (Uber). There's nothing wrong with either mindset, but I believe it's naive to say that companies don't care about money. Without money, you can't pour it into R&D, expansion, or improvements.
      - danielharan 12y ago
        Companies need to make money to keep existing, the same way we need to breathe. If you've ever had a tyrannical boss, you'll see sometimes the company is just their fiefdom. Feeding their ego is their prime motivation and organizing principle for the company - not generating money.
eltondegeneres 12y ago
For its shortcomings, at least Muni has a level of accountability to the public that Lyft and Uber inherently lack. I can't see Lyft or Uber providing discounts to seniors or people with disabilities.
- pbreit 12y ago
  True in a political sense I suppose. But Lyft and Uber are far more accountable to actual users. And I'm nor sure I would equate accountability with offering arbitrary discounts to select groups.
  - kbenson 12y ago
    I wouldn't call them arbitrary. As a society we've chosen to make the idea of helping the less able lead more normal lives something we want. Whether it really helps or is the most effective way is debatable, but I think it's pretty clear why; it's generally well supported and fits with our cultural mythos.
    - soup10 12y ago
      Also young people don't vote ;)
      - kbenson 12y ago
        Yes, I also thought of that as well. :) I didn't feel like exploring how that interrelates to other classes like the disabled in complex ways though[1], so omitted it. Edit: s/included that as well/thought of that as well/ 1: Do the disabled benefit from this association and the voting power of the elderly, and if so how much of our cultural wish to help the disabled is rationalization after the fact?
  - eltondegeneres 12y ago
    I'm not that familiar with Lyft, but Uber doesn't doesn't seem accountable to actual users. Did they issue an apology for their "Rides of Glory" article where they mapped potential one night stands?
enahs-sf 12y ago
This price war between uber and lyft seems foolish and unsustainable, but as a consumer, I'm down.
- evv 12y ago
  I agree, until Lyft runs out of money, Uber wins, and the price skyrockets. Plus there's Sidecar, which will surely die soon because nobody even knows it exists.
  - gojomo 12y ago
    ...and the price skyrockets. Maybe. But maybe instead: Routing and capital intensity (lack of car idle-times) continues to improve. Shared-rides in larger-vehicles (vans) grow in proportion and convenience. Cities expand pick-up/drop-off zones for car services. Attempts at monopoly price hikes spur freelance/coop/upstart competitors along the most profitable corridors, able to snipe Uber rides via overlay apps/services. So costs and prices stay low long enough until... Driverless vehicles become the major mode of urban short-trip car travel. Driver costs are eliminated, insurance costs reduced, and capacity/intensity further improved – with high-capacity vehicles that tirelessly reposition without breaks/distractions. Automated rides stay nearly as cheap as 'mass' transit on dedicated rails, indefinitely.
    - dougabug 12y ago
      Who owns the cars? Who is liable for problems which arise? If I'm anywhere near home, I'm using my own self-driving car, not something used by tens of thousands of unknown people. If I'm somewhere else, I'd like to use a restricted set of cars of people that I know and trust and vice versa. Probably just trade favors and pay for gas/charging rather than a straight up fee. Would be nice to coordinate with a place to stay, so I don't have to do two separate tasks (esp if I'm visiting somewhere I have friends or family nearby). Also, it seems like regulated utilities have been more effective at providing essential services widely at low cost than large private oligopolies such as cable and wireless, so I have no particular desire for an Uber/Lyft duopoly.
natmaster 12y ago
Who would have thought private industry was better than government at things.
- applecore 12y ago
  To paraphrase Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman, free markets don't eliminate the need for government; they minimize the extent to which government needs participate directly in the game. However, government is still essential to deciding the “rules of the game” and in interpreting and enforcing those rules.
- hristov 12y ago
  This is a limited time promotion. The Muni price is a long term price. After a while, lyft and uber will bring their prices back up. It will be a shame if any muni services are lost in the meantime because people stupidly believe that these are long term prices.
  - dilap 12y ago
    Lyft's normal line price is frequently (slightly) cheaper for my wife and I than Muni. Of course, during heavy demand times or for longer rides, muni wins, and I certainly would not want it to go away! I think long term something like robot driven 6-rider lyft-line style vans is probably the future of public transit (hopefully) :)
- bluthru 12y ago
  A loss-leading promotion means that government is terrible at everything? Ron Swanson, is that you?
hristov 12y ago
ok what is a lyft line? is that some other type of lyft?
- matznerd 12y ago
  A potentially shared ride. It spends a minute searching to see if someone is heading in the same direction as you and then you share the ride. As a passenger, you also only have 1 minute to get downstairs when the car arrives or you have to pay a $5 fee (which really annoys me sometimes as their estimates of time to arrival are sometimes grossly incorrect.
badusername 12y ago
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throwing-money-away.gif http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throw... Edit: thanks for downvoting a valid point. It's weird that HN doesn't see it for what it is.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  HN downvotes low effort posts like reaction gifs, it has nothing to do with your point.
dcpdx 12y ago
The company I work for recently won a contest put on by Lyft offering free Lyft Line rides to and from work for an entire week. I live in Lower Pac Heights and work in the Financial District and take a couple different Muni routes to and from work. I'll take either the 2 or the 3 heading in and the 38L heading back; the 38L is way too crowded in the morning by the time it gets to my closest stop. Morning commute usually takes around 15 minutes and afternoon takes around 10. So, my commute isn't bad by any means but I decided to give Lyft Line a shot to see if I could do any better. The first day I tried hailing one in the morning, the app hung up looking for drivers; it said 1 minute to match with a driver but I waited 3 before quitting the app and deciding to take Muni. That afternoon, I tried again but ran into the same issue. The next afternoon, I was finally able to line up a ride but had to wait 10 minutes for the driver to get to me. Once he did and we were on our way, I had the joyful experience of sitting in traffic for blocks on end while watching Munis zip by in the designated lanes beside us. Not including wait time, the ride took around 20 minutes (double my normal commute time). I'm sure there are some routes for which Line is a better option than public transportation, but I personally have a much better experience on Muni than I did with Line. I get why they're focused on rush hour; a service like Line requires a critical mass of people to use the app concurrently in order to make it work. But, the downside of this is that the times when it reaches this point are the times when traffic is the worst and public transportation offers a superior alternative in many cases. We'll see if this ends up taking off, but I know I won't be using it for my commute. Maybe this would be better suited for one-off events like Outside Lands, Giants games etc. but I'd imagine they'd run into the same problems.
- diego 12y ago
  Sounds similar to my thoughts. I've been trying to get a ride for the past two hours (I'm in the office, no rush to go home). I got canceled three times.
philip1209 12y ago
The actual lyft line code is more simple than you would expect. It's written in Flask and uses lots of heuristics. Lack of real-time traffic data causes most of their issues. We're hosting the engineering lead for Lyft Line at our meetup in SF next month if you are interested in learning about it: http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/ http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/
crystaln 12y ago
This would seem to undermine companies like Chariot, who are offering more MUNI-plus like services: http://chariotsf.com http://chariotsf.com
diego 12y ago
I just tried Lyft line in SF. The first request got canceled after five minutes. The second one found matches after a few minutes and told me to be outside 6 minutes later. At some point someone else joined the ride, so the 6 minutes turned into 12. About 15 minutes went by, and (when the estimated wait time had decreased only by 4 minutes) the driver decided to cancel the ride. My guess is that it was because rush hour pricing jumped from 50% to 75%, so "James" decided getting a single, full-price ride made more sense. Needless to say, not a happy customer at this point.
ComteDeLaFere 12y ago
The "Drive Happy District"? That sounds like something right out of Super Sad True Love Story.
geuis 12y ago
I use Lyft all the time, multiple times a week. This is ridiculous. How in the hell are their drivers supposed to make money?
- prawn 12y ago
  It's likely that Lyft are loss-leading to keep marketshare and still paying their drivers the regular amount.
abhididdigi 12y ago
Wonderful. As a heavy Lyft user, I'm looking forward towards the same in NYC - NJ area.

103 points by dafzal 12y ago

kevinkimball 12y ago

the 1-up-manship continues

walru 12y ago
At what point do drivers tap out? This match keeps cutting their hopes dimmer and dimmer.
- ultimoo 12y ago
  These prices are sustained by Uber's and Lyft's VC money. Drivers still get the full fare.
- rjbrock 12y ago
  Uber stated that the drivers are still getting what they would be getting without the $5 promo
- kiyoto 12y ago
  So, I've been talking to a lot of Uber/Lyft drivers, and while I have no carefully tabulated data to quantify my point, I must say Lyft drivers complain less than Uber drivers (at least not explicitly) about their respective employers. This attitudinal difference is most acute when the driver drives for both: they generally like Lyft better for how the company treats them but are also on Uber to ensure steadier business.
  - jsprogrammer 12y ago
    I thought dogma was that drivers are not employees, but Independent Contractors? Meaning Uber/Lyft are not employers (of drivers), but more akin to a fancy home improvement parking lot?
    - icebraining 12y ago
      They're still employers, even if the drivers are independent contractors. The name doesn't change.
      - jsprogrammer 12y ago
        They do employee people (office staff), but they are not employers of the drivers. It would be more accurate to call them the contractee. At least, this is the argument that Uber/Lyft will/does make to shield them from general liability for their contractors' actions as well as tax liability[1]. [1] http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...
vessenes 12y ago
Most drivers I meet have both apps running; I'm not sure this sort of competition is bad for drivers really. They will and can go where the customers are.

zobzu 12y ago

thats quite cheap if you go from one side of the square to the other.. which happens to be my case ;)

TheSwordsman 12y ago

Pretty neat idea. However, more glad that Lyft finally has the ability to split fare.

sbisker 12y ago

For those not in the SF area, this is almost certainly in response to this (unless Uber has a mole within Lyft...): http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty http://blog.uber.com/SFpoolparty

Cherian 12y ago

I’ve been a regular Lyft Line user. Except for some cars that show up in pretty bad shape and smell, it’s a good experience. And I’ve had to wait much longer on an average. It’s heartening to see a company just focused on the “user” and not just world domination.

closetnerd 12y ago
I'm assuming you mean Uber is after "world domination"? But don't fool yourself, Lyft is the same, Uber is just better at it so Lyft has no choice but to fight back with $2.50 to Uber's $5 bucks flat. This isn't because the company is "focused on the user", it's because the company is focused on the competition. If that goes away (unlikely for Lyft to see Uber go away) don't expect high standards.
- chc 12y ago
  Do you believe this because you know some inside information, or is this just a generic "All any company cares about is your money"-type platitude?
  - closetnerd 12y ago
    I'm saying all companies HAVE to care about your money but they don't have to care about you. Not unless you have competition. Laissez-faire
  - rkho 12y ago
    Companies exist to make money. Some don't say it outright and focus on the user experience, which brings more money (i.e. Apple). Others focus directly on the bottom line (Uber). There's nothing wrong with either mindset, but I believe it's naive to say that companies don't care about money. Without money, you can't pour it into R&D, expansion, or improvements.
    - danielharan 12y ago
      Companies need to make money to keep existing, the same way we need to breathe. If you've ever had a tyrannical boss, you'll see sometimes the company is just their fiefdom. Feeding their ego is their prime motivation and organizing principle for the company - not generating money.

eltondegeneres 12y ago

For its shortcomings, at least Muni has a level of accountability to the public that Lyft and Uber inherently lack. I can't see Lyft or Uber providing discounts to seniors or people with disabilities.

pbreit 12y ago
True in a political sense I suppose. But Lyft and Uber are far more accountable to actual users. And I'm nor sure I would equate accountability with offering arbitrary discounts to select groups.
- kbenson 12y ago
  I wouldn't call them arbitrary. As a society we've chosen to make the idea of helping the less able lead more normal lives something we want. Whether it really helps or is the most effective way is debatable, but I think it's pretty clear why; it's generally well supported and fits with our cultural mythos.
  - soup10 12y ago
    Also young people don't vote ;)
    - kbenson 12y ago
      Yes, I also thought of that as well. :) I didn't feel like exploring how that interrelates to other classes like the disabled in complex ways though[1], so omitted it. Edit: s/included that as well/thought of that as well/ 1: Do the disabled benefit from this association and the voting power of the elderly, and if so how much of our cultural wish to help the disabled is rationalization after the fact?
- eltondegeneres 12y ago
  I'm not that familiar with Lyft, but Uber doesn't doesn't seem accountable to actual users. Did they issue an apology for their "Rides of Glory" article where they mapped potential one night stands?

enahs-sf 12y ago

This price war between uber and lyft seems foolish and unsustainable, but as a consumer, I'm down.

evv 12y ago
I agree, until Lyft runs out of money, Uber wins, and the price skyrockets. Plus there's Sidecar, which will surely die soon because nobody even knows it exists.
- gojomo 12y ago
  ...and the price skyrockets. Maybe. But maybe instead: Routing and capital intensity (lack of car idle-times) continues to improve. Shared-rides in larger-vehicles (vans) grow in proportion and convenience. Cities expand pick-up/drop-off zones for car services. Attempts at monopoly price hikes spur freelance/coop/upstart competitors along the most profitable corridors, able to snipe Uber rides via overlay apps/services. So costs and prices stay low long enough until... Driverless vehicles become the major mode of urban short-trip car travel. Driver costs are eliminated, insurance costs reduced, and capacity/intensity further improved – with high-capacity vehicles that tirelessly reposition without breaks/distractions. Automated rides stay nearly as cheap as 'mass' transit on dedicated rails, indefinitely.
  - dougabug 12y ago
    Who owns the cars? Who is liable for problems which arise? If I'm anywhere near home, I'm using my own self-driving car, not something used by tens of thousands of unknown people. If I'm somewhere else, I'd like to use a restricted set of cars of people that I know and trust and vice versa. Probably just trade favors and pay for gas/charging rather than a straight up fee. Would be nice to coordinate with a place to stay, so I don't have to do two separate tasks (esp if I'm visiting somewhere I have friends or family nearby). Also, it seems like regulated utilities have been more effective at providing essential services widely at low cost than large private oligopolies such as cable and wireless, so I have no particular desire for an Uber/Lyft duopoly.

natmaster 12y ago

Who would have thought private industry was better than government at things.

applecore 12y ago
To paraphrase Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman, free markets don't eliminate the need for government; they minimize the extent to which government needs participate directly in the game. However, government is still essential to deciding the “rules of the game” and in interpreting and enforcing those rules.
hristov 12y ago
This is a limited time promotion. The Muni price is a long term price. After a while, lyft and uber will bring their prices back up. It will be a shame if any muni services are lost in the meantime because people stupidly believe that these are long term prices.
- dilap 12y ago
  Lyft's normal line price is frequently (slightly) cheaper for my wife and I than Muni. Of course, during heavy demand times or for longer rides, muni wins, and I certainly would not want it to go away! I think long term something like robot driven 6-rider lyft-line style vans is probably the future of public transit (hopefully) :)
bluthru 12y ago
A loss-leading promotion means that government is terrible at everything? Ron Swanson, is that you?

hristov 12y ago

ok what is a lyft line? is that some other type of lyft?

matznerd 12y ago
A potentially shared ride. It spends a minute searching to see if someone is heading in the same direction as you and then you share the ride. As a passenger, you also only have 1 minute to get downstairs when the car arrives or you have to pay a $5 fee (which really annoys me sometimes as their estimates of time to arrival are sometimes grossly incorrect.

badusername 12y ago

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throwing-money-away.gif http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/throw... Edit: thanks for downvoting a valid point. It's weird that HN doesn't see it for what it is.

Igglyboo 12y ago
HN downvotes low effort posts like reaction gifs, it has nothing to do with your point.

dcpdx 12y ago

The company I work for recently won a contest put on by Lyft offering free Lyft Line rides to and from work for an entire week. I live in Lower Pac Heights and work in the Financial District and take a couple different Muni routes to and from work. I'll take either the 2 or the 3 heading in and the 38L heading back; the 38L is way too crowded in the morning by the time it gets to my closest stop. Morning commute usually takes around 15 minutes and afternoon takes around 10. So, my commute isn't bad by any means but I decided to give Lyft Line a shot to see if I could do any better. The first day I tried hailing one in the morning, the app hung up looking for drivers; it said 1 minute to match with a driver but I waited 3 before quitting the app and deciding to take Muni. That afternoon, I tried again but ran into the same issue. The next afternoon, I was finally able to line up a ride but had to wait 10 minutes for the driver to get to me. Once he did and we were on our way, I had the joyful experience of sitting in traffic for blocks on end while watching Munis zip by in the designated lanes beside us. Not including wait time, the ride took around 20 minutes (double my normal commute time). I'm sure there are some routes for which Line is a better option than public transportation, but I personally have a much better experience on Muni than I did with Line. I get why they're focused on rush hour; a service like Line requires a critical mass of people to use the app concurrently in order to make it work. But, the downside of this is that the times when it reaches this point are the times when traffic is the worst and public transportation offers a superior alternative in many cases. We'll see if this ends up taking off, but I know I won't be using it for my commute. Maybe this would be better suited for one-off events like Outside Lands, Giants games etc. but I'd imagine they'd run into the same problems.

diego 12y ago
Sounds similar to my thoughts. I've been trying to get a ride for the past two hours (I'm in the office, no rush to go home). I got canceled three times.

philip1209 12y ago

The actual lyft line code is more simple than you would expect. It's written in Flask and uses lots of heuristics. Lack of real-time traffic data causes most of their issues. We're hosting the engineering lead for Lyft Line at our meetup in SF next month if you are interested in learning about it: http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/ http://www.meetup.com/OpenLate/events/217476372/

crystaln 12y ago

This would seem to undermine companies like Chariot, who are offering more MUNI-plus like services: http://chariotsf.com http://chariotsf.com

diego 12y ago

I just tried Lyft line in SF. The first request got canceled after five minutes. The second one found matches after a few minutes and told me to be outside 6 minutes later. At some point someone else joined the ride, so the 6 minutes turned into 12. About 15 minutes went by, and (when the estimated wait time had decreased only by 4 minutes) the driver decided to cancel the ride. My guess is that it was because rush hour pricing jumped from 50% to 75%, so "James" decided getting a single, full-price ride made more sense. Needless to say, not a happy customer at this point.

ComteDeLaFere 12y ago

The "Drive Happy District"? That sounds like something right out of Super Sad True Love Story.

geuis 12y ago

I use Lyft all the time, multiple times a week. This is ridiculous. How in the hell are their drivers supposed to make money?

prawn 12y ago
It's likely that Lyft are loss-leading to keep marketshare and still paying their drivers the regular amount.

abhididdigi 12y ago

Wonderful. As a heavy Lyft user, I'm looking forward towards the same in NYC - NJ area.