8 ms·

Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

• jstalin 12y ago
  Outstanding. This is long overdue.
• spacefight 12y ago
  Nice. Whats's next? Close Gitmo? Give back the lease?
  • kmfrk 12y ago
    Gitmo requires the approval of Congress - guess what blocked it from happening. This is an executive action.
    • technofire 12y ago
      > This is an executive action. Not quite; some restrictions have been lifted but this is not yet a done deal: "Although the decades-old American embargo on Cuba will remain in place for now, the administration signaled that it would welcome a move by Congress to ease or lift it should lawmakers choose to."[1] [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-rel...
      • kmfrk 12y ago
        Obama calling for Congress to act is what we in this year of our Lord 2014 call "trolling".
        • themartorana 12y ago
          Have to agree. What does Obama have to lose by just going out on a limb and ending a horribly failed policy? Realizing of course there are so many others he promised to end and hasn't...
          • Amezarak 12y ago
            > Have to agree. What does Obama have to lose by just going out on a limb and ending a horribly failed policy? Because "like so many others" he simply doesn't have the power to; it requires Congressional approval. I suppose he could do what you want and unilaterally declare it over, but that would be a very clear breach of power and would result in many moderates and liberals decrying his overreach. It would end up - at the least - the subject of legal action and an injunction and perhaps even spur bipartisan support for impeachment proceedings. The power of the Presidency is in general greatly exaggerated by the media. The President has broad power to set the agenda (which the rest of the government and the country is largely free to ignore) and has some power over policy/legal execution (particularly within foreign affairs), and over the military, but that's about it. Even within the executive branch the President is not as all-powerful as the media or even high schools tend to imply: even excluding agencies that are altogether independent, the President generally cannot walk in and tell people what to do.
            • themartorana 12y ago
              I know this. But I seriously doubt impeachment. More interesting would be to see who supports a continued embargo and why? Instead of rubber-stamping it, congressmen would have to take a position one way or the other, and I doubt there's much good argument for its continuation en-masse. Obama could force Congress to have to address Cuba head-on. I don't know if it's the most important thing or not, but you'd at least get to see why we continue a useless embargo.
    • spacefight 12y ago
      It sure looks like the cuban gov has nothing to say. What a shame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban%E2%80%93American_Treaty#Cuban_perspectives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban%E2%80%93American_Treaty#C...
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  • serve_yay 12y ago
    I am not sure why this would affect that, as far as I know that part of Cuba is considered to be US soil.
    • philwelch 12y ago
      Guantanamo Bay isn't US soil, it's Cuban soil indefinitely leased to the US for the purpose of maintaining a naval base. (The concentration camp is a side benefit, constructed to evade laws against building concentration camps on American soil.)
      • serve_yay 12y ago
        OK, I guess that is a distinction.
      • happyscrappy 12y ago
        Indefinitely leased is nitpicking but at least you got to say concentration camp twice.
        • vidarh 12y ago
          It's not nitpicking when it is what provides the legal foundation for Gitmo in the first place.
          • happyscrappy 12y ago
            Are there practical differences between ownership and indefinite lease? I mean can the lease be cancelled or terms changed unilaterally?
            • lazyant 12y ago
              ownership != sovereign soil
              • happyscrappy 12y ago
• arenaninja 12y ago
  I hope this doesn't out me as short-sighted, but I'm looking forward to a vacation there in the near future!
  • frandroid 12y ago
    It does...
  • Vaskerville 12y ago
    Me too. And, more coincidental, I'm moving to Port au Prince in just a couple months!
    • brandon272 12y ago
      Out of curiosity, what is taking you there?
• valarauca1 12y ago
  This is actually (amusingly) incredibly unpopular in cigar circles who are calling this the "end of an era". Most discussions seems to center around the doom and gloom of quality dropping and prices increasing as the US/Cuban cigar market opens and the demand for CC increases. No discussion on the legality of owning CC changing amusingly. As apparently everyone forgets that smoking a Cuban Cigar can be considered an act of treason currently.
  • tootie 12y ago
    Or that cigar imports is probably the most utterly trivial and selfish thing to consider in this move.
    • debacle 12y ago
      I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.
      • hyperbovine 12y ago
        When I was in Cuba, a lot of people I talked to were obviously in favor of lifting the embargo, but others expressed misgivings about what it would do to their culture and society. Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of, say what you will about how they achieve that. They are very proud of their resilience in the face of a half-century's worth of crippling U.S. sanctions--in particular the period after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Normalization will lead to a rise in the Cuban material standard of living, and with it will come all of the attendant social woes that we have here. That's neither totally good nor totally bad, and it should be up to the Cuban people to choose their own path, but I can see why you might oppose this for other than purely selfish reasons.
        • debacle 12y ago
          Cuba flaunts the US hegemony from right under their noses, but they have great wealth in their geographic location, and their society. Cuba could become the Switzerland of the western hemisphere given the right outset.
• unprepare 12y ago
  I have to think this is related to tensions with Russia and avoiding a second missile crisis. I wonder if there will be a reaction from Russia about this news.
  • ceejayoz 12y ago
    Uh, what? Cuba isn't a Soviet vassal state any more.
    • tormeh 12y ago
      Putin seems to like turning back the clock on that kind of thing. Just because it's irresponsible doesn't mean he won't do it. He's a rational actor in terms of his own grip on power and nothing else.
      • ceejayoz 12y ago
        Again, Cuba's no longer a vassal state. I suspect they have little interest in hosting Russian nuclear missiles, and I suspect the US would be more than happy to help them resist a Russian effort to restore the Cold War situation.
        • tormeh 12y ago
          Imagine that the US didn't lift the embargo but Russia offered access to Russian cars (yes, they exist), cheap oil and whatever else Russia can provide. That would be very tempting for Cuba, I think.
          • ceejayoz 12y ago
            That was already the case, except it was with Venezuela. http://www.businessinsider.com/cuba-didnt-have-a-choice-anymore-2014-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/cuba-didnt-have-a-choice-anym...
        • waterlesscloud 12y ago
• iandanforth 12y ago
  I've visited Cuba on a Canadian passport. Aside from the beautiful beaches the thing that struck me most was the desperate poverty of people living in shacks outside the 5 star resorts. While I hesitate to predict that this change will be all for the good, I do believe that the poorest in Cuba will benefit significantly from increased trade.
  • quonn 12y ago
    This might have been your impression, coming straight from Canada. I visited Cuba a decade ago, having traveled in Latin America for > 1 year. I can't say that Cuba seemed to be worse off than many of these other countries.
    • mladenkovacevic 12y ago
      This is true as well. I've seen worse conditions in both Costa Rica (a relatively successful country) and El Salvador.
      • trhway 12y ago
        exactly. The Latin America is filled with countries there people are poor and powerless and oppressed by their government and non-government organizations (criminal and drug cartels, guerrillas, left and right paramilitaries, etc...) As Cuba was an ally of USSR such policies were reasonable back then. The USSR had disappeared 23 years ago though...
      • pmelendez 12y ago
        >" I've seen worse conditions in both Costa Rica ... " It depends on your definition of worse. In Cuba there was a general shortage of several basic items (toilet paper, eggs, meat... etc.) were most people (the only exception is the political class) have to face rationing and long lines. As far as I know that is inexistent in Costa Rica.
        • dragonwriter 12y ago
• sremani 12y ago
  In 2008 G W Bush has removed North Korea from Embargo list, and embargo has to be renewed every year based on "some" Enemy Act of 1917. Cuba is the only country in US embargo list, I understand it is personal as Cuba is just few miles away from US, but still the embargo is inhumane and people are suffering. John Oliver has a very interesting piece on his HBO show.
  • refurb 12y ago
    The one thing I don't understand is how the US embargo is to blame for the lackluster Cuban economy. Cuba is free to trade with most Western countries including the EU and Canada. How much of the economic misery is due to the Castro government and how much is due to the US embargo?
    • sremani 12y ago
      An american embargo on Mexico will effect Mexico in spades even if it can trade with others. I am not glorifying Castro, but we have hardly hurt Castro, the idea behind the embargo is to make it unbearable for Cubans and make them revolt against Castro - that did not happen in 50 years and so its about time to change the tactics. US is the giant that can infuse a boat load money via tourism, or capital or through access to new technology and services. US can influence Cuba more if its economy is coupled with America's. That how we tackled Communist Chinese, remember.
      • o0-0o 12y ago
        The ChiComs are more hostile than ever. The Chinese people are more like sheep than ever before IMHO. I don't think that part of your comment is accurate, but the rest is pretty clever.
    • tormeh 12y ago
      The Helms–Burton Act dictates that any firm that does trade with Cuba can't trade with the US. So no trade for Cuba, then.
      • 12y ago
• joezydeco 12y ago
  The timing seems really clever here. The USA and OPEC flood the market with oil (literally), crashing prices and sending the Ruble into a spiral. Just as Cuba starts to worry about Russian support going forward, the USA swoops in to provide some economic bracing.
  • sremani 12y ago
    I think this move effects Venezuela more than Russia. It is Venezuela that provides cheaper oil cuba in return for many services like healthcare etc. Now that oil is already cheap, Cuba does not need for patronage of Venezuela.
    • joezydeco 12y ago
      Putin was just in Cuba this summer to strengthen the oil business relationship and get more access to offshore drilling off the Cuban coast. This seems like it's all a concerted effort to double-down on the embargo and slap Putin where it hurts the most.
    • jpatokal 12y ago
      You may have the causality the wrong way around here here: with Venezuela's oil revenues cratering and what remains of their economy after a decade of Chavismo spiraling rapidly downwards, it's unlikely they can afford to be Cuba's sugar daddy for much longer.
      • adventured 12y ago
        This is the correct answer. Venezuela is begging China for loans presently to delay an inevitable default. They were already in disaster mode before oil plunged. It's a smart move on Cuba's part to reconcile with the US.
  • hughw 12y ago
    Literally?
    • 12y ago
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• lumberjack 12y ago
  Since this is HN, does anyone know what the IT sector is like in Cuba? Apparently they have a university dedicated to IT stuff[1] but I don't read Spanish and I couldn't really find any projects/research page on there. The only thing that seems to be portrayed is a Linux distro called Nova.[2] [1] http://www.uci.cu/ http://www.uci.cu/ [2] http://www.nova.cu/ http://www.nova.cu/
  • arenaninja 12y ago
    On your second link, there's a great pun on "HumanOS", which in Spanish simply means "Humans". On the university site, there's a few hidden links to Cuban Mozilla fans[1], a digital publication for open source software [2], a youth-targeted site for open-source users[3] (seems down), and a women-targeted site for IT [4]. Note that there's more, but everything seems to be down at the moment, it might be the HN effect [1] http://firefoxmania.uci.cu/ http://firefoxmania.uci.cu/ [2] http://swlx.cubava.cu/ http://swlx.cubava.cu/ [3] gutl.jovenclub.cu [4] http://haciendoweb.upr.edu.cu/ http://haciendoweb.upr.edu.cu/
  • brianbreslin 12y ago
    Here in Miami there are a number of Cuba initiatives for IT/tech education and entrepreneurship/startups. Happy to put you in touch with people if you're interested.
  • ecoqba 12y ago
    There are lot's of different projects internally. You have to remember that the cuban people does not have direct internet access, so is harder for Cubans to distribute their open source projects.
  • jeltz 12y ago
    I know there is a PostgreSQL user group which seems affiliated in some way to that university. https://postgresql.uci.cu/ https://postgresql.uci.cu/
• JSeymourATL 12y ago
  > The changes follow a rare private intercession by Pope Francis, the Catholic Church’s first Latin-American pontiff, secret meetings between Cuban and American delegations at the Vatican. *Hit-tip to Pope Francis...bien hecho.
  • MichaelGG 12y ago
    I found that the most odd thing here. Obama personally needed a Pope to remind him about Cuba? I mean, it's good a church is doing something beneficial but it sounds strange.
    • Shivetya 12y ago
      as with the phrase, only Nixon could go to China, only the Pope could go to Cuba, if not the US. Pope Francis's reputation is nearly unassailable currently. Cuba being predominantly Catholic gave him an edge no one else would have, him being the first Latin American Pope is icing on the cake
• skywhopper 12y ago
  I'm thrilled to see this. This is the sort of hopey changey I was looking for from Obama. Maintaining the status quo in re Cuba is just mindless stubbornness at this point.
  • Someone1234 12y ago
    Agreed. It seems like people commonly raise the fact that Cuba still jails political dissidents. However, while accurate, it ignores the many MANY countries the US hasn't embargoed which do similar or worse. For one example, the US and Saudi Arabia are "best buddies" but yet the Saudi government is often doing extremely anti-freedom stuff. I mean this is the only country on earth where women are forbidden from driving. So my point is less "Cuba is the good guy" and more "if they're going to continue the embargo then keep it consistent, hit Egypt, Pakistan, China, Yemen, and so on" for it also.
• glup 12y ago
  The title of the Bloomberg article "Cuba’s Half Century of Isolation to End" perpetuates a major misconception for US citizens. Cuba isn't isolated from the rest of the world (in the manner that North Korea is) -- it's just the US and Cuba. The island is fully connected as a tourist destination for Canadians, Latin Americans, and Europeans and they import consumer goods from Korea, China, Vietnam, etc. There are major differences (e.g. the military apparatus has controlling interests in nearly all business ventures, including those with foreign firms) but "isolation" is a pretty inaccurate characterization.
  • dragonwriter 12y ago
    The retaliatory policy the US has against any entity doing business with Cuba severely limits business engagement with Cuba, since firms that engage in many kinds of business with Cuba risk retaliatory asset seizures if assets come within the jurisdiction of US courts. While foreign trade with Cuba is less constrained by the embargo than direct US trade, it is inaccurate to say that the embargo only affects direct trade between US and Cuba.
    • glup 12y ago
      Right, that's an important nuance. But that means that a firm in a country like Spain is only constrained by the embargo if it also does business with US companies, right?
      • krschultz 12y ago
        Which ends up being a very large number of companies, and it can generally be enforced simply through preventing banks from working with a company.
      • markvdb 12y ago
        Things like http://lta.reuters.com/article/idLTAL2N0PE1H520140703 http://lta.reuters.com/article/idLTAL2N0PE1H520140703 . BNP Paribas is one of the biggest French banks...
• raldi 12y ago
  What are we going to do about all the trademark conflicts? US rum and cigar companies stole the brand names of famous Cuban companies, because they knew they could get away with it. To see what I mean, Ctrl-F dueling on http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cigar_brands http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cigar_brands
  • peterwwillis 12y ago
    ?? From the Bacardi wikipedia: "Ospina describes how the Bacardi family and Company left Cuba after the Castro regime confiscated the Company’s Cuban assets on 15 October 1960; in particular, in nationalizing and banning all private property on the island as well as all bank accounts. However, due to concerns over the previous Cuban leader Fulgencio Batista the company had started foreign branches a few years prior to the revolution; the Company moved the ownership of the Company's trademarks, assets and proprietary formulas out of the country to the Bahamas prior to the revolution as well as constructing plants in Puerto Rico and Mexico after Prohibition to save import taxes for rum being imported to the US. This helped the company survive after the communist government confiscated without compensation all Bacardi assets in the country." "More recently, Bacardi lawyers were influential in the drafting of the 1996 Helms-Burton Act which sought to extend the scope of the United States embargo against Cuba. In 1999, Otto Reich, a lobbyist in Washington on behalf of Bacardi, drafted section 211 of the Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Appropriations Act, FY1999 (Pub.L. 105–277), a bill that became known as the Bacardi Act. Section 211 denied trademark protection to products of Cuban businesses expropriated after the Cuban revolution, a provision keenly sought by Bacardi. The act was aimed primarily at the Havana Club brand in the US. The brand was created by the José Arechabala company and confiscated without compensation in the Cuban revolution. The Havana Club trademark had been registered by the Cuban government in the United States without permission of the rightful owners. The new law invalidated the trademark registration. Section 211 has been challenged unsuccessfully by the Cuban government and the European Union in US courts; however, the act has been ruled illegal by the WTO (August 2001). The US Congress has yet to re-examine the matter." Basically, Cuba stole some brands after the revolution, so the U.S. said "fuck you, you can't trademark a brand you stole from its rightful owners". The EU and WTO have a problem with that, but luckily the U.S. has never given a shit what the EU or WTO says.
• peterwwillis 12y ago
  It's kind of funny, but this won't actually bring all warm-n-fuzzies from the people most affected by it. The refugees/dissidents in Miami are saying this isn't going to change anything because it allows the Castro regime to double down on economic growth from new business relations with the US. The non-refugees are saying this will make immigration worse. The people both on the island and those illegally importing products into the country from Miami may face higher prices and tighter restrictions. And if political reform comes, it could be at the cost of dismantling the relatively strong public health and education systems.
• xyahoo 12y ago
  There's more to the Cuban embargo than meets the eye. It is true that the Southern Florida Cuban exile community wields a disproportional amount of influence. Florida is almost equally divided between Democrats and Republicans, and is a big state in terms of electoral votes; so when a sizeable block like the Cuban exiles votes a certain way, it can tip the balance. However, that is not the entire story. If we (US) were really that concerned about the lost property of the Cubans expelled by Castro, we would also look inward and ponder the fate of the British supporters kicked out in 1776; the KMT supporters kicked out by Mao; etc. If we can trade with China, Russia, etc. then there's no reason we can't trade with Cuba. In fact, the opening of the borders with USSR is often listed as one of the key factors in bringing it down; so why not do the same with Cuba?
  • mcantelon 12y ago
    Relations, of course, aren't based on morality, they're based on strategy. Otherwise the US wouldn't have allies like Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan.
• flyinghamster 12y ago
  I get the feeling that the embargo will last until Fidel reaches room temperature. I do find it interesting that in recent years, Bacardi has been playing up its Cuban heritage. I suspect that they're itching to get back, but that whole issue of returning confiscated property stands in the way. Will Cuba end up with something like the Treuhandanstalt in post-reunification Germany?
• jmr0 12y ago
  My parents and I left Cuba when I was a child and proceeded to live in various parts of the world before eventually settling in the US. I would like to go back and visit some relatives there at some point, and as a Cuban-born naturalized American citizen I know it is legal for me to do so even currently, but I was informed that I couldn't actually enter Cuba with only an American passport. The Cuban govt requires that I enter as a Cuban citizen, which means obtaining a Cuban passport that costs $200 to renew every 2 years [0]. I'm sure this is mostly just an easy way of extracting money, but I sure look forward to official diplomatic relations being established and hope some of these requirements change -- I don't feel very comfortable entering Cuba as a Cuban citizen and not knowing where my rights end or begin. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_passport http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_passport
  • jpatokal 12y ago
    The passport you use is irrelevant: if Cuban still considers you a citizen, and decides it wants you to do military service or something, you're screwed even if you entered on a US passport. I'd recommend formally renouncing your Cuban citizenship (and getting the documentation to certify this) if you want to be 100% sure there are no hassles.
• Zhenya 12y ago
  Russia gets North Korea - US goes for Cuba in almost the same day. Interesting.
• beloch 12y ago
  First, it's important to note that the economic sanctions on Cuba require the action of the Senate to be lifted. That's virtually a foregone conclusion however. U.S. policy usually tends to favour business. That's why the economic sanctions on Cuba were bound to be removed sooner or later. At present, there are some products (e.g. compressors and other items requiring a large foundry to produce) that are very difficult and expensive to get in Cuba because most companies that produce them are either American or owned by American companies. Smaller companies from countries such as Canada have made a practice of "bootlegging" for the Cubans. In recent years it has not been uncommon for a compressor skid to be produced in Texas, shipped to Alberta via rail, shipped to the East coast through Canada via rail, and finally shipped to Cuba. The reason sanctions against Cuba are finally being dropped is probably related to the death or extreme old age of most everyone who can remember having property snatched away from them when the Cubans nationalized everything after the revolution. Subsequent generations of Cubans and americans have been brought up to distrust each other though. It won't be as easy as some think for U.S. companies to march back into Cuba and set up shop again. Companies that have been quietly running mines and building power plants for the Cubans over the last few decades will likely have the edge. It's going to take time and patience for trust to be restored.
• Hermel 12y ago
  And as I said a while ago in my most downvoted comment ever (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8442817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8442817), Sherritt stocks will go through the roof in case relations start to normalize. And they did today, with +25%.
• hcentelles 12y ago
  I'm from Cuba, living in Spain right now. The Cuban government is reluctant to open internet access to the people, despite of they already have the needed bandwith through a submarine cable from Venezuela. Is really fascinating how the Cubans have developed a higly optimized offline distribution channel to share dowloaded content like websites, software, video games, tv shows, movies, with almost the same comsuption patterns of the connected world. This is a loable move from Obama admnistration and can have a pontentially impact on the near future of cuban internet. The White House fact sheet (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/17/fact-sheet-charting-new-course-cuba http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/12/17/fact-s...) said: "Telecommunications providers will be allowed to establish the necessary mechanisms, including infrastructure, in Cuba to provide commercial telecommunications and internet services, which will improve telecommunications between the United States and Cuba." If Cuban government allow this kind of companies to do business on or with Cuba, that could be huge. But if happens, this could be very slow, sadly. Disclosure: I'm the cofounder of some Cuba related startups, a classifieds ads site censored by the Cuba government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUmPkb44n_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUmPkb44n_w, they block us by ip and dns, despite of the censorship, revolico is one of the most visited sites in the country, taking into account that cuba has a 5% internet penetration. Also a atypical remittances platform https://www.fonoma.com https://www.fonoma.com and crowfunding site for cuban artists shutted down by the USA goverment because of the kind of restriction that they are softening today http://www.yagruma.org http://www.yagruma.org
  • caente 12y ago
    You started revolico!? That's awesome man, I think that project "opened" the mind of a lot of cuban entrepreneurs. I know a few cool projects over there, I also know a lot of plastic artists trying to start projects that connect the "exile" with the people of the island. As you might know, even among those oppose to the regime, there is a lot of bias against cubans from America(unless they are family/friends). I'm also cuban, living in NY, I'd like to help out with whatever I can. You'll find my email on my profile.
    • hcentelles 12y ago
• jpatokal 12y ago
  The line about opening an embassy in Cuba as soon as possible is a bit funny, since the US has long had an embassy in all but name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Interests_Section_in_Havana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Interests_Sectio... And while that's technically only a "section" of the Swiss embassy, a glance at a photo of the place makes it pretty clear that there's a bit more going on.
  • jeffwass 12y ago
    I've been to the Cuban interest section in Washington DC several times. It's not really an embassy in that diplomatic functions and freedoms don't exist like proper embassies. The ambassador's freedoms are quite limited. Eg, at some point he was not allowed to leave the confines of the DC beltway. Diplomatic immunity be damned. Really sucked for us planning an event in my Baltimore uni for him to speak at, where the travel restriction came into effect just days before and we had to resort to video conf.
    • jpatokal 12y ago
      Well, that's the thing: since it's not an embassy, it doesn't have an ambassador with diplomatic privileges, it has a "chief". But my point is that this is all just paper. Out in the real world, the US can (and probably will) pretty much just swap out the plaque outside the "US Interests Section" with one that says "US Embassy", with the chief and their assistants magically transformed into diplomats.
• Shivetya 12y ago
  I figure the last two years of President Obama's term are going to be one wild ride. He has clearly shown he could not if he harms others in his party politically and he certainly could care less what the Republicans think. Freed from any need to cooperate; now that Republicans are in control; with Congress its going to be fun. Why do I say no need, with Reid in charge of the Senate he had to play by party rules, he is free of that. Some moves will definitely be for the good, some may not be. Regardless it should be chaotic if not fun to watch