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I wonder how much of the "sticking out" is self-imposed. At times, I have felt the same way as you and the author have expressed. At others, I think I am making

I wonder how much of the "sticking out" is self-imposed. At times, I have felt the same way as you and the author have expressed. At others, I think I am making it up. It's stressful to feel like every move is scrutinized because of something I have no control over. I am tired of the "sticking out" feeling, real or imaginary. So, I started a Meetup group for black engineers. Sometimes, it's really nice to just relax and feel comfortable. No worries about someone attributing my behavior to being black, or judging all black people by something that I've said or done. Right now, I am hoping to rally folks to come to Philadelphia in 2 weeks for a black hackathon. It's a great way to network and teach. Check out http://www.mbkhack.com/ http://www.mbkhack.com/ for more info. If you're in NYC and interested, we will have a pre-meeting before we go. The link is in my profile.

coffeemug 12y ago
White engineer (and startup founder) here. Could you explain what it feels like/what you think causes it in a little bit more detail? I care very deeply about diversity and making everyone feel included in our company, but it's hard to do without having a deep understanding of why people who don't feel included feel that way. What exactly do people do? Do you feel they make assumptions about what you're like? Or is it that you feel you can't be yourself because if you act the way you feel is natural and still get your work done, people mistakingly perceive you as unprofessional? For people who are in a position to change work environments and make them more inclusive, what can we do? What changes do you think we could make to accept people from different backgrounds? (I mean actually accept, not just have a friendly slogan that makes everyone self-satisfied, but doesn't actually accomplish anything) EDIT: the OP mentions obviously sexist/racist comments that border on sexual harassment. Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?
- erichmond 12y ago
  Coffee, I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you, but I'd prefer not to post on HN as I'd prefer not to be downvoted into oblivion. I will send you a direct email.
- megablast 12y ago
  It can be something as simple as being in a team of gamers, and not being a gamer yourself. You are naturally going to stick out, and not have as good a time as if you are in a team of people who like cycling, or have families like you do. Age can be a difference, not obvious as being treated differently, but just having different humuour levels, or doing different things on the weekend can make it harder to bond.
  - _greim_ 12y ago
    I can see not being a gamer or not liking beer making anyone a social misfit, regardless of race. I'm a white non-gamer and I've uncomfortably sat through so many gaming conversations. They just go on and on and on.
  - eldavido 12y ago
    It's true. And for as much flak as "cultural fit" takes in the popular press, everyone's going to be happier if people get along. Look hard at this stuff when you're thinking about joining a company, you'll spend a lot of time there.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious? Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. I know it takes some doing to maintain an atmosphere of mutual trust, to the point where people can be direct and honest, and communication even about very complicated issues works the best. I would maintain that a policy of instant firing for pattern-matching "bad behavior" is the very opposite of what you want. (Except in very extreme circumstances.) Instead, when it comes up, how about you gauge how open the different parties are to new information? How about measuring how curious, flexible, and effective they are figuring out where things went wrong and understanding how to avoid the problem in the future? I propose that an atmosphere of openness and mutual trust that can even encompass issues around race and gender would make for a group that's head and shoulders more effective than most.
  - mbubb 12y ago
    "Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do." - Yes.
  - coffeemug 12y ago
    > Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. There is no plausible context in which saying "did you get that bruise from your boyfriend beating you?" to your colleague is appropriate. If someone does that, you really have no choice but to take a stand.
    - kelnos 12y ago
      That could be a matter of context, though. Obviously this was not the situation for the author of the article, but that isn't automatically an inappropriate statement. Let's say the person who said it actually has a friendship with the recipient, and knows that she is in an abusive relationship. The manager/boss/founder may not know any of this, and the hair-trigger "you're fired" response is entirely unwarranted and fairly horrible. Recently I was having a conversation with a coworker (who is also a friend) where I said something to him that would be pretty bad if we weren't also friends. (We often have a faux-confrontational relationship and hurl fake insults at each other.) Someone who wasn't aware of our friendship overheard, and mentioned it to our boss, who then calmly asked me for an explanation. In the end, our boss agreed that the 3rd party overreacted, but suggested (and I agreed) that I might want to tone it down in situations where others who don't understand could misinterpret my words. He didn't come at me angrily or with an accusation of impropriety, but instead asked a reasonable question in an attempt to understand the context of the situation. Immediately taking the matter to HR or threatening me with being fired would have been counterproductive.
- issa 12y ago
  I think it's great that you put this question out here. The funny thing (in my experience) is that white people DO understand exactly how it feels, they just aren't always honest enough with themselves to realize it. The Experiment: Go to whatever is considered to be the worst neighborhood in your town. At night. Alone. Do something completely normal. For example, buy something from a gas station, walk into a nightclub, etc. How do you feel? Out of place? Scared? Not sure how to act? Well, that's the feeling the OP is describing. The immediate defensive response is usually to think "that's different...those neighborhoods are DANGEROUS. I could be killed." Granted, black people can certainly be in danger just for being in white neighborhoods (think unprovoked police shootings), but even if your biggest fear is losing your job or something of that nature, it isn't all that different. I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team. Really put effort into finding candidates from diverse backgrounds. That means expanding your circle even when you aren't actively recruiting. (also, try not to ever say "binders full of women")
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team. I'd say that's the start. You're creating favorable conditions. The important step is to have open and honest communications, even around issues as sensitive as race. (also, try not to ever say "binders full of women") I don't think "try not to say" political correctness is intellectually compelling. In fact, I think it's counter-productive to open and honest communications. The implementation of hair-trigger job loss and social stigma is only going to create fear and stifle communications. I'm not trying to defend toxic speech here. Instead, I'm trying to be clear about comprehension and motivation. Instead of a social context that mindlessly implements pattern-matching hair-trigger sanctions, I'd rather have a support group that understands me and where I'm coming from, so they understand how I would feel about this or that social situation. I'd rather be surrounded by coworkers that know me well enough, they probably won't say something that offends me, or if they happen to do that, I know well enough to talk to them constructively about that.
    - eldavido 12y ago
- sdenton4 12y ago
  I'm a white male mathematician, and have spent a good deal of time working in east Africa over the last few years. Going to Kenya was my first experience with being a visible minority, and working in the Universities, I'm guessing, might approximate what the article is getting at. There was clearly an established culture within the departments, amongst the people I was working with, that I simply couldn't be a part of. At the same time, I was subject to quite a bit of street harassment, though not workplace harassment, which made it very difficult to make connections with people, because the defenses you deploy against possible harassment become an impediment to making strong connections with people. Meanwhile, things like being vegetarian create a kind of gulf with working colleagues. I think one of the most important things you can do is to actively nurture leadership amongst minority members of your team. By supporting their ideas (both for engineering and social activities) you'll help empower them and make them into insiders. People struggling to fit in will speak more softly, and be more fearful of putting ideas forward; listen closely, amplify good ideas, and make sure that the right people get the credit for them.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- wkfauna 12y ago
  I'm a female software engineer. I'm pretty successful, but I have often felt that I don't fit in and I've had to learn to deal with that. I feel isolated and lonely when there is a group that has a common narrative and set of assumptions that I don't fit. These come out in general statements, assumptions, and/or jokes. Then I have to decide whether to hide my own preferences (lying by omission), get into an argument, or change my preferences. All three options are exhausting and take energy away from actually doing work. Examples: * Generalizations about "real haxx0rs": "programmers have side projects", "programmers use [operating system of choice]", "programmers heavily customize their editor", "programmers can't get a girlfriend/are introverted/socially maladapted", "programmers don't care about their clothes", "programmers don't wear a tie", etc. * Disproportionately caring about one set of users/customers which resembles the team. Example: spending a lot of time talking about/fixing the experience of male users when the vast majority of users are female (and the product is not mature yet); making fun of users and their silly ways when the majority of users are female and/or non-technical and/or young and/or old and/or not from cosmopolitan areas, etc. * Having to have a conversational style that's significantly more aggressive than what is natural for me in order not to get left out of conversations. I have to be comfortable cutting people off in meetings and jumping on the ends of sentences. I've learned to do it but it's pretty exhausting, and takes energy away from actually doing work. Also, having to jump verbal cues gives me a feeling of insecurity about people not caring what I have to say unless I shove it down their throat, even when that is obviously not the case (because my input is well-received). As a manager/CEO, here are a few things you can do to help: * Allow hires to be vetoed on the basis of not having an inclusive worldview, regardless of their professional ability. You can ask "tell me of a time when" type questions to suss that out. Eg, "tell me of a time when you had to convey a complicated technical point across to a non-technical customer (or team)", and watch for denigrating statements. I've given product manager candidates hypothetical products to design for a very particular audience, and anyone who made excessive fun of the intended audience was a no hire. * Enforce civil conversational standards around the workplace, ie no off-color jokes, talking down to customers, empty generalizations, etc. I don't mean sending around HR videos on what not to say, I mean simple statements like "That's not funny, and offensive" (said flatly), "This customer pays us $X" or "That's not how we're going to improve our conversion rate", etc. * Encourage open and written discussion of issues, eg via bugs, written code buddies/reviews, etc. Have anyone be able to veto a commit (with good reason), or reopen a bug. Having the bulk of these discussions in writing can help shy/non-confrontational people have their say. Having a focus on getting things done, and getting them done right, vs how exactly they get done can also help people feel more at ease. * Pay close attention in group discussions to see if anyone is chronically unable to finish their thought without being shut down or talked over by someone else. If their thoughts have merit, be their advocate and calmly say something like "I'd like to hear X finish their thought". Say it as often as necessary. Then encourage other people to say it for you, when necessary. Aside from all of this, as an early startup employee I've been mistaken for the admin, and as a consultant I've been in situations where people assumed at first sight that I was dumb, not technical at all, had not programmed for long, and more generally was less competent than others. If these prejudices survived one conversation they were generally a sign that the company was pretty fucked up and that much more was wrong with it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

coffeemug 12y ago

White engineer (and startup founder) here. Could you explain what it feels like/what you think causes it in a little bit more detail? I care very deeply about diversity and making everyone feel included in our company, but it's hard to do without having a deep understanding of why people who don't feel included feel that way. What exactly do people do? Do you feel they make assumptions about what you're like? Or is it that you feel you can't be yourself because if you act the way you feel is natural and still get your work done, people mistakingly perceive you as unprofessional? For people who are in a position to change work environments and make them more inclusive, what can we do? What changes do you think we could make to accept people from different backgrounds? (I mean actually accept, not just have a friendly slogan that makes everyone self-satisfied, but doesn't actually accomplish anything) EDIT: the OP mentions obviously sexist/racist comments that border on sexual harassment. Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious?

erichmond 12y ago
Coffee, I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you, but I'd prefer not to post on HN as I'd prefer not to be downvoted into oblivion. I will send you a direct email.
megablast 12y ago
It can be something as simple as being in a team of gamers, and not being a gamer yourself. You are naturally going to stick out, and not have as good a time as if you are in a team of people who like cycling, or have families like you do. Age can be a difference, not obvious as being treated differently, but just having different humuour levels, or doing different things on the weekend can make it harder to bond.
- _greim_ 12y ago
  I can see not being a gamer or not liking beer making anyone a social misfit, regardless of race. I'm a white non-gamer and I've uncomfortably sat through so many gaming conversations. They just go on and on and on.
- eldavido 12y ago
  It's true. And for as much flak as "cultural fit" takes in the popular press, everyone's going to be happier if people get along. Look hard at this stuff when you're thinking about joining a company, you'll spend a lot of time there.
stcredzero 12y ago
Obviously you have to instill the culture of diversity by firing people who do that the moment you overhear them. But what else can we do that might be a little more subtle/less obvious? Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. I know it takes some doing to maintain an atmosphere of mutual trust, to the point where people can be direct and honest, and communication even about very complicated issues works the best. I would maintain that a policy of instant firing for pattern-matching "bad behavior" is the very opposite of what you want. (Except in very extreme circumstances.) Instead, when it comes up, how about you gauge how open the different parties are to new information? How about measuring how curious, flexible, and effective they are figuring out where things went wrong and understanding how to avoid the problem in the future? I propose that an atmosphere of openness and mutual trust that can even encompass issues around race and gender would make for a group that's head and shoulders more effective than most.
- mbubb 12y ago
  "Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do." - Yes.
- coffeemug 12y ago
  > Actually, such heavy-handed consequences on a hair trigger might be the opposite of what you want to do. There is no plausible context in which saying "did you get that bruise from your boyfriend beating you?" to your colleague is appropriate. If someone does that, you really have no choice but to take a stand.
  - kelnos 12y ago
    That could be a matter of context, though. Obviously this was not the situation for the author of the article, but that isn't automatically an inappropriate statement. Let's say the person who said it actually has a friendship with the recipient, and knows that she is in an abusive relationship. The manager/boss/founder may not know any of this, and the hair-trigger "you're fired" response is entirely unwarranted and fairly horrible. Recently I was having a conversation with a coworker (who is also a friend) where I said something to him that would be pretty bad if we weren't also friends. (We often have a faux-confrontational relationship and hurl fake insults at each other.) Someone who wasn't aware of our friendship overheard, and mentioned it to our boss, who then calmly asked me for an explanation. In the end, our boss agreed that the 3rd party overreacted, but suggested (and I agreed) that I might want to tone it down in situations where others who don't understand could misinterpret my words. He didn't come at me angrily or with an accusation of impropriety, but instead asked a reasonable question in an attempt to understand the context of the situation. Immediately taking the matter to HR or threatening me with being fired would have been counterproductive.
issa 12y ago
I think it's great that you put this question out here. The funny thing (in my experience) is that white people DO understand exactly how it feels, they just aren't always honest enough with themselves to realize it. The Experiment: Go to whatever is considered to be the worst neighborhood in your town. At night. Alone. Do something completely normal. For example, buy something from a gas station, walk into a nightclub, etc. How do you feel? Out of place? Scared? Not sure how to act? Well, that's the feeling the OP is describing. The immediate defensive response is usually to think "that's different...those neighborhoods are DANGEROUS. I could be killed." Granted, black people can certainly be in danger just for being in white neighborhoods (think unprovoked police shootings), but even if your biggest fear is losing your job or something of that nature, it isn't all that different. I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team. Really put effort into finding candidates from diverse backgrounds. That means expanding your circle even when you aren't actively recruiting. (also, try not to ever say "binders full of women")
- stcredzero 12y ago
  I think, ultimately, the best way to promote an inclusive workplace is to hire a diverse team. I'd say that's the start. You're creating favorable conditions. The important step is to have open and honest communications, even around issues as sensitive as race. (also, try not to ever say "binders full of women") I don't think "try not to say" political correctness is intellectually compelling. In fact, I think it's counter-productive to open and honest communications. The implementation of hair-trigger job loss and social stigma is only going to create fear and stifle communications. I'm not trying to defend toxic speech here. Instead, I'm trying to be clear about comprehension and motivation. Instead of a social context that mindlessly implements pattern-matching hair-trigger sanctions, I'd rather have a support group that understands me and where I'm coming from, so they understand how I would feel about this or that social situation. I'd rather be surrounded by coworkers that know me well enough, they probably won't say something that offends me, or if they happen to do that, I know well enough to talk to them constructively about that.
  - eldavido 12y ago
sdenton4 12y ago
I'm a white male mathematician, and have spent a good deal of time working in east Africa over the last few years. Going to Kenya was my first experience with being a visible minority, and working in the Universities, I'm guessing, might approximate what the article is getting at. There was clearly an established culture within the departments, amongst the people I was working with, that I simply couldn't be a part of. At the same time, I was subject to quite a bit of street harassment, though not workplace harassment, which made it very difficult to make connections with people, because the defenses you deploy against possible harassment become an impediment to making strong connections with people. Meanwhile, things like being vegetarian create a kind of gulf with working colleagues. I think one of the most important things you can do is to actively nurture leadership amongst minority members of your team. By supporting their ideas (both for engineering and social activities) you'll help empower them and make them into insiders. People struggling to fit in will speak more softly, and be more fearful of putting ideas forward; listen closely, amplify good ideas, and make sure that the right people get the credit for them.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
wkfauna 12y ago
I'm a female software engineer. I'm pretty successful, but I have often felt that I don't fit in and I've had to learn to deal with that. I feel isolated and lonely when there is a group that has a common narrative and set of assumptions that I don't fit. These come out in general statements, assumptions, and/or jokes. Then I have to decide whether to hide my own preferences (lying by omission), get into an argument, or change my preferences. All three options are exhausting and take energy away from actually doing work. Examples: * Generalizations about "real haxx0rs": "programmers have side projects", "programmers use [operating system of choice]", "programmers heavily customize their editor", "programmers can't get a girlfriend/are introverted/socially maladapted", "programmers don't care about their clothes", "programmers don't wear a tie", etc. * Disproportionately caring about one set of users/customers which resembles the team. Example: spending a lot of time talking about/fixing the experience of male users when the vast majority of users are female (and the product is not mature yet); making fun of users and their silly ways when the majority of users are female and/or non-technical and/or young and/or old and/or not from cosmopolitan areas, etc. * Having to have a conversational style that's significantly more aggressive than what is natural for me in order not to get left out of conversations. I have to be comfortable cutting people off in meetings and jumping on the ends of sentences. I've learned to do it but it's pretty exhausting, and takes energy away from actually doing work. Also, having to jump verbal cues gives me a feeling of insecurity about people not caring what I have to say unless I shove it down their throat, even when that is obviously not the case (because my input is well-received). As a manager/CEO, here are a few things you can do to help: * Allow hires to be vetoed on the basis of not having an inclusive worldview, regardless of their professional ability. You can ask "tell me of a time when" type questions to suss that out. Eg, "tell me of a time when you had to convey a complicated technical point across to a non-technical customer (or team)", and watch for denigrating statements. I've given product manager candidates hypothetical products to design for a very particular audience, and anyone who made excessive fun of the intended audience was a no hire. * Enforce civil conversational standards around the workplace, ie no off-color jokes, talking down to customers, empty generalizations, etc. I don't mean sending around HR videos on what not to say, I mean simple statements like "That's not funny, and offensive" (said flatly), "This customer pays us $X" or "That's not how we're going to improve our conversion rate", etc. * Encourage open and written discussion of issues, eg via bugs, written code buddies/reviews, etc. Have anyone be able to veto a commit (with good reason), or reopen a bug. Having the bulk of these discussions in writing can help shy/non-confrontational people have their say. Having a focus on getting things done, and getting them done right, vs how exactly they get done can also help people feel more at ease. * Pay close attention in group discussions to see if anyone is chronically unable to finish their thought without being shut down or talked over by someone else. If their thoughts have merit, be their advocate and calmly say something like "I'd like to hear X finish their thought". Say it as often as necessary. Then encourage other people to say it for you, when necessary. Aside from all of this, as an early startup employee I've been mistaken for the admin, and as a consultant I've been in situations where people assumed at first sight that I was dumb, not technical at all, had not programmed for long, and more generally was less competent than others. If these prejudices survived one conversation they were generally a sign that the company was pretty fucked up and that much more was wrong with it.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]