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I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone

I probably have an unpopular opinion on this, but I feel that people who wish to commit suicide should not be prevented from doing so. By all means, if someone wants to get help or needs counseling they should be able to get it. But if in the end their choice is suicide, we should be making it easier for them, not harder. I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of fear I would be "prevented" from making my own choices. Similarly, when an animal is critically injured we "put them out of their misery" because that's the "humane" thing to do. But us humans, we have to suffer to the very end. Why?

k-mcgrady 12y ago
You seem to be forgetting that for a lot of these people it wasn't really a choice. Their mind was malfunctioning and led them to do something they probably wouldn't have a few months later if they received the right help. Your argument about animals is more related to assisted dying/euthanasia which probably represents a very small number of these suicides and is a separate discussion I feel.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  > You seem to be forgetting that for a lot of these people it wasn't really a choice. Their mind was malfunctioning and led them to do something they probably wouldn't have a few months later This argument proves a little too much.
jamestanderson 12y ago
But if your choices are because you suffer from a mental illness such as depression, should we as a society just "shrug" and say "Well, it's their choice, let them do whatever they want." ? I don't think so - especially when a lot of times, due to their illness, they cannot make their own choice.
- sgift 12y ago
  The problem starts when you get into "is this a state of mind or an illness?" territory. I've heard the argument that people who have the wish to commit suicide are by definition mentally ill and should therefore be prevented from doing it even if we don't know which mental illness they suffer from.
ojbyrne 12y ago
If you're talking about people with terminal illnesses, then I completely agree. Otherwise, there needs to be a whole lot of counseling. Yes, its your decision, but everyone makes poor decisions, and this one is irreversible.
kachnuv_ocasek 12y ago
I think the point is that "we" should try to prevent them from wishing to commit suicide.
31reasons 12y ago
You need to educate yourself with the science of choice and what happens during depression that changes your ability to make right decisions. Assuming that a depressed person is able to make the right decision is just wrong. How many times did you decide on something and than changed your mind? only this one is irreversible. Depression is curable with right support and medication. There may be few who are hopeless cases but 40000 is a big number and I believe its preventable for good.
- lmz 12y ago
  Abortion is also irreversible, yet discouraging women who want to abort their pregnancy from doing so is considered in bad taste by most liberals.
  - cldellow 12y ago
    More nuance, please! I think most women have thought about abortion to some degree and formed an opinion on whether it's the right choice for them, or under what conditions they would entertain the idea of an abortion versus keeping the child in an unexpected pregnancy. In these cases, you're right: discouraging women who have thought about the process would be seen as in bad taste. But what if the woman was being pressured to abort (or to keep) the child by outside pressure? Then intervention would be seen as supporting the woman, not as interfering, and it'd be in good taste. IMO, suicide is very similar. A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. I don't think it's too much of a leap from that to the idea that a large proportion of suicides themselves are being done for the wrong reasons, i.e. the "outside pressure" of a brain that is suffering a mental illness.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      > A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. A different conclusion you could draw from this are that the failed attempts failed because they weren't really trying to kill themselves, a sort of regretting-in-advance, if you will. I feel pretty safe in saying that successful suicide attempts don't go on to regret it, and it's not at all obvious that the failures and the successes are examples of the same phenomenon.
Cthulhu_ 12y ago
I think you're confusing or equalizing suicide with euthanasia; the former is, in this case, a mental issue triggered by chemical inbalances (which in turn are often due to external causes), and as the people that have been through depression can attest to, a temporary one. Suicide in that case can be listed as a temporary lapse in judgment. Euthanasia, on the other hand, is a conscious choice, often by the terminally ill and the suffering with no chance of recovery. Chronic physical pain and such, often to a point where the person is no longer able to commit suicide.
- barry-cotter 12y ago
  I loathe your condescension. If someone wants to die and they still want to die a month later, let them. By what right do we force those who want to die to suffer a little longer? If it's their life why can't they end it if they will? You know what's not a terminal illness that is bad enough that many with it would welcome death? Schizophrenia. For some the medicine works, the side effects are acceptable, they can lead a normal life. But there are plenty who can't. You know what else isn't a terminal illness that would make you long for oblivion? Surviving when the rest of your family didn't, surviving when the accident was your fault. And you know what, if you think your life isn't worth living and you want out, you are suffering. I've been depressed, I've been very depressed indeed and I'm glad to have seen the back of it but there are plenty who spend years and decades there and if they want out they should be let go, not locked up "for their own safety"
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    > By what right You assume 100% self ownership of one's life, which I find silly. Society makes large investments in individuals and typically they have long term duties that cannot rightfully be abandoned.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Well in America anyway, the dominant culture is of an independent right to choose your own way. Especially in the arena of personal health and welfare.
id 12y ago
>I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of fear I would be "prevented" from making my own choices. If you already made your choice to commit suicide, you wouldn't seek counseling. But if you do, they won't do anything against your will unless you announce your suicide.
pfortuny 12y ago
You do not understand (or it seems so) that in most cases, the "decision" to commit suicide is not either a "free" or a "willing" decision. There are cases where it is but, honestly, they are so few that legislating for them would be dishonest.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jkldotio 12y ago
I logged in just to downvote you as, extremely unfortunately, you are the top comment on this thread at the present moment. I don't think, for most cases in which it is not terminal, that you can say it's a case of physical suffering. As someone has pointed out in another comment, a huge number of suicides come not from people who are terminally ill but from people who are just depressed. In those cases nothing you say in your comment actually applies. Those people are not "critically injured" they are just depressed, frequently they go on to live full and meaningful lives if they seek help.
lazyant 12y ago
Many people that have survived a suicide attempt (a guy jumping from the Golden Gate bridge is a well-known case) have regretted intermediately and go on to live a "normal" life.
- ddorian43 12y ago
  He said something similar to "when I jumped, I realized that every problem in my life was fixable, except the jump".
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
kbart 12y ago
In some corner cases (i.e. terminal illness, serious disability etc.) I would agree with you. But mostly suicidal behaviour and attempts are caused by temporary difficulties (mostly failed relationships, financial difficulties, loneliness) or mental conditions that can be treated - depression, addiction. I personally know quite a few people that would be gone by now if had been surrounded by people with your attitude and that lead normal life today.
mindcrime 12y ago
FWIW, I agree with the general sentiment of your comment. If somebody has truly decided that the suffering they are experiencing outweighs whatever joy they experience from life, and they want to get off this ride, then they absolutely have the right to do so. Of course not everybody who thinks they want to die is being rational at the time, and I'm all for making treatment, counseling, etc. available... but speaking for myself, I know that if/when I ever decide that I want out, I don't want anybody presuming some authorization to interfere with me. So yeah, put me in the "right to die" camp. But us humans, we have to suffer to the very end. Why? Because it's a cultural meme that "human life is sacrosanct and must be preserved at all cost" or whatever. It's really pretty silly when you think about it.
InclinedPlane 12y ago
I think it's important to recognize the difference between allowing someone to do something and striving to get someone to not do something, even if it's allowed.
practicalpants 12y ago
I agree that it ought to be a free choice if it's coming from a place of sanity, but our society really must further research and understanding of underlying causes of those suicides which could be classified as systemic to our culture, which looking at suicide rates around the world and historically is the majority of America's suicides. Some reasons for suicide are almost unavoidable (e.g. thinking of a recent NPR story about a mother who lost her children), yet many suicides are ultimately a product of our way of life, of what we are taught, of how we were raised, of how we form social groups, of the types of pressures we put on each other, of struggling to pay bills, of living here in the first world among gaping income disparity (I remember an article from a few years ago linking income disparity with suicide rates), etc.. I don't claim to know exactly how our culture creates suicides or how it could be changed, but it's got to be acknowledged as the source of a lot of depression and suicide and as an area that needs more serious thinking.

k-mcgrady 12y ago

You seem to be forgetting that for a lot of these people it wasn't really a choice. Their mind was malfunctioning and led them to do something they probably wouldn't have a few months later if they received the right help. Your argument about animals is more related to assisted dying/euthanasia which probably represents a very small number of these suicides and is a separate discussion I feel.

thaumasiotes 12y ago
> You seem to be forgetting that for a lot of these people it wasn't really a choice. Their mind was malfunctioning and led them to do something they probably wouldn't have a few months later This argument proves a little too much.

jamestanderson 12y ago

But if your choices are because you suffer from a mental illness such as depression, should we as a society just "shrug" and say "Well, it's their choice, let them do whatever they want." ? I don't think so - especially when a lot of times, due to their illness, they cannot make their own choice.

sgift 12y ago
The problem starts when you get into "is this a state of mind or an illness?" territory. I've heard the argument that people who have the wish to commit suicide are by definition mentally ill and should therefore be prevented from doing it even if we don't know which mental illness they suffer from.

ojbyrne 12y ago

If you're talking about people with terminal illnesses, then I completely agree. Otherwise, there needs to be a whole lot of counseling. Yes, its your decision, but everyone makes poor decisions, and this one is irreversible.

kachnuv_ocasek 12y ago

I think the point is that "we" should try to prevent them from wishing to commit suicide.

31reasons 12y ago

You need to educate yourself with the science of choice and what happens during depression that changes your ability to make right decisions. Assuming that a depressed person is able to make the right decision is just wrong. How many times did you decide on something and than changed your mind? only this one is irreversible. Depression is curable with right support and medication. There may be few who are hopeless cases but 40000 is a big number and I believe its preventable for good.

lmz 12y ago
Abortion is also irreversible, yet discouraging women who want to abort their pregnancy from doing so is considered in bad taste by most liberals.
- cldellow 12y ago
  More nuance, please! I think most women have thought about abortion to some degree and formed an opinion on whether it's the right choice for them, or under what conditions they would entertain the idea of an abortion versus keeping the child in an unexpected pregnancy. In these cases, you're right: discouraging women who have thought about the process would be seen as in bad taste. But what if the woman was being pressured to abort (or to keep) the child by outside pressure? Then intervention would be seen as supporting the woman, not as interfering, and it'd be in good taste. IMO, suicide is very similar. A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. I don't think it's too much of a leap from that to the idea that a large proportion of suicides themselves are being done for the wrong reasons, i.e. the "outside pressure" of a brain that is suffering a mental illness.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    > A large proportion of suicide attempts are people who go on to regret it and successfully seek treatment. A different conclusion you could draw from this are that the failed attempts failed because they weren't really trying to kill themselves, a sort of regretting-in-advance, if you will. I feel pretty safe in saying that successful suicide attempts don't go on to regret it, and it's not at all obvious that the failures and the successes are examples of the same phenomenon.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago

I think you're confusing or equalizing suicide with euthanasia; the former is, in this case, a mental issue triggered by chemical inbalances (which in turn are often due to external causes), and as the people that have been through depression can attest to, a temporary one. Suicide in that case can be listed as a temporary lapse in judgment. Euthanasia, on the other hand, is a conscious choice, often by the terminally ill and the suffering with no chance of recovery. Chronic physical pain and such, often to a point where the person is no longer able to commit suicide.

barry-cotter 12y ago
I loathe your condescension. If someone wants to die and they still want to die a month later, let them. By what right do we force those who want to die to suffer a little longer? If it's their life why can't they end it if they will? You know what's not a terminal illness that is bad enough that many with it would welcome death? Schizophrenia. For some the medicine works, the side effects are acceptable, they can lead a normal life. But there are plenty who can't. You know what else isn't a terminal illness that would make you long for oblivion? Surviving when the rest of your family didn't, surviving when the accident was your fault. And you know what, if you think your life isn't worth living and you want out, you are suffering. I've been depressed, I've been very depressed indeed and I'm glad to have seen the back of it but there are plenty who spend years and decades there and if they want out they should be let go, not locked up "for their own safety"
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  > By what right You assume 100% self ownership of one's life, which I find silly. Society makes large investments in individuals and typically they have long term duties that cannot rightfully be abandoned.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Well in America anyway, the dominant culture is of an independent right to choose your own way. Especially in the arena of personal health and welfare.

id 12y ago

>I think that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I would be less likely to seek counseling out of fear I would be "prevented" from making my own choices. If you already made your choice to commit suicide, you wouldn't seek counseling. But if you do, they won't do anything against your will unless you announce your suicide.

pfortuny 12y ago

You do not understand (or it seems so) that in most cases, the "decision" to commit suicide is not either a "free" or a "willing" decision. There are cases where it is but, honestly, they are so few that legislating for them would be dishonest.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jkldotio 12y ago

I logged in just to downvote you as, extremely unfortunately, you are the top comment on this thread at the present moment. I don't think, for most cases in which it is not terminal, that you can say it's a case of physical suffering. As someone has pointed out in another comment, a huge number of suicides come not from people who are terminally ill but from people who are just depressed. In those cases nothing you say in your comment actually applies. Those people are not "critically injured" they are just depressed, frequently they go on to live full and meaningful lives if they seek help.

lazyant 12y ago

Many people that have survived a suicide attempt (a guy jumping from the Golden Gate bridge is a well-known case) have regretted intermediately and go on to live a "normal" life.

ddorian43 12y ago
He said something similar to "when I jumped, I realized that every problem in my life was fixable, except the jump".
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

kbart 12y ago

In some corner cases (i.e. terminal illness, serious disability etc.) I would agree with you. But mostly suicidal behaviour and attempts are caused by temporary difficulties (mostly failed relationships, financial difficulties, loneliness) or mental conditions that can be treated - depression, addiction. I personally know quite a few people that would be gone by now if had been surrounded by people with your attitude and that lead normal life today.

mindcrime 12y ago

FWIW, I agree with the general sentiment of your comment. If somebody has truly decided that the suffering they are experiencing outweighs whatever joy they experience from life, and they want to get off this ride, then they absolutely have the right to do so. Of course not everybody who thinks they want to die is being rational at the time, and I'm all for making treatment, counseling, etc. available... but speaking for myself, I know that if/when I ever decide that I want out, I don't want anybody presuming some authorization to interfere with me. So yeah, put me in the "right to die" camp. But us humans, we have to suffer to the very end. Why? Because it's a cultural meme that "human life is sacrosanct and must be preserved at all cost" or whatever. It's really pretty silly when you think about it.

InclinedPlane 12y ago

I think it's important to recognize the difference between allowing someone to do something and striving to get someone to not do something, even if it's allowed.

practicalpants 12y ago

I agree that it ought to be a free choice if it's coming from a place of sanity, but our society really must further research and understanding of underlying causes of those suicides which could be classified as systemic to our culture, which looking at suicide rates around the world and historically is the majority of America's suicides. Some reasons for suicide are almost unavoidable (e.g. thinking of a recent NPR story about a mother who lost her children), yet many suicides are ultimately a product of our way of life, of what we are taught, of how we were raised, of how we form social groups, of the types of pressures we put on each other, of struggling to pay bills, of living here in the first world among gaping income disparity (I remember an article from a few years ago linking income disparity with suicide rates), etc.. I don't claim to know exactly how our culture creates suicides or how it could be changed, but it's got to be acknowledged as the source of a lot of depression and suicide and as an area that needs more serious thinking.