8 ms·

Can you explain to what extend it is "silly" to make an effort to avoid sexism or racism?

by jkscm 12y ago

Karunamon 12y ago
It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. Arguments have been made that, say, for instance, the human trafficking ring in Watch Dogs (recent video game) shouldn't have ever existed because it's overtly sexist, despite the fact that you break it up at the end of the mission arc. (To which I say: That's what human trafficking is. Sexist? Ya think?! People are being sold into slavery and you focus on sexism?) Such arguments ring as hollow as the railing against violence in video games. Saying what kind of artwork people should and shouldn't make transcends all *isms into straight-up repressiveness.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lewispollard 12y ago
  If we're talking serious /art/, I think the distinction is really, is this potentially offensive thing making a point that betters the perceived meaning of the game, or is it there because of lazy writing and tropes? In all art forms, it's the former that's generally granted high status.
- d1me 12y ago
  > It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. I respectfully disagree. I think it's extremely important to have discussions about various -isms in fiction. Fiction is a huge part of how we understand and view the world around us, and if our fiction has distorted worldviews, then we should know about it. What I took away from that anecdote instead, is that tact is a thing and so is knowing what to say when, and that maybe charged opinions on tangential issues should be left to some occasion other than when your friend is trying to show you something that she worked really hard on.
  - notduncansmith 12y ago
    > if our fiction has distorted worldviews, then we should know about it. You keep using that word, "fiction". I do not think it means what you think it means.
    - the_af 12y ago
      A lot has been written about how, for example, the best Science Fiction reflects something from the real world or makes us think about real world issues. It's, in my opinion, what turns good SF into truly great SF. There are even awards specifically made for SF that touches these real world issues (see the James Tiptree, Jr. Award [1], for example. And if you've never read fiction by Tiptree (R.I.P.), I strongly recommend her work!) So fiction often has meaning related to the real world. In my opinion it is entirely appropriate to worry when groups of people are generally misrepresented in fiction. Fiction that is completely divorced from reality is uninteresting to me and to a great deal many people. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr._Award http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr._Award
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Though there's a huge difference between "knowing about it" and railing against it. My takeaway is that the Anita Sarkeesians (the person who made the argument against Watch Dogs that I mentioned) of the world want the same thing the Jack Thompsons of the world do - suppression (not recognition, suppression) of that which makes them uncomfortable, using a very weak appeal to the greater good in an attempt to legitimize it. And on a more meta level, I have yet to see so much as one criticism of any particular video game for $isms that was simultaneously: * Completely factual * Well researched * Not misleading * Not judgmental as to the game's target audience If such a thing were to exist, I think it would be a great boon to both the cause of social justice warriors and video gaming as a maturing art form. Unfortunately, everyone that's gone down this path, that I'm aware of, seems to abandon all of the above and instead create shrill, judgmental, self-congratulatory pieces that cause people with any ounce of rationality to sigh and move on.
betenoire 12y ago
I don't think anyone said making an effort to avoid sexism or racism is silly.
pyre 12y ago
But to what extent? Are all game worlds supposed to represent an ideal utopia? E.g. is the antagonist being sexist supporting sexism or is it a commentary on sexism? What about 'historical' games? Do we eliminate references to the Holocaust in WW2-era games because it might offend someone? I think that this is where the arguments get fuzzy. Everyone has a different idea of where the line is drawn.
metafex 12y ago
Avoiding the topic of sexism and racism is worse than not talking about it. So yeah, avoiding it is silly: it helps nobody. What I was referring to, is the part of the article where everyone had to complain about something regarding the vision of the developers. My point was that it looks like it is a futile effort to comply with what everyone expects and that it is more important to concentrate being happy creating something.
gnarbarian 12y ago
Would you demand the same of other art forms? We don't tell artists what to paint. If something is offensive it's deemed 'powerful' for the emotions it's capable of invoking. If we hate it we move on and don't look at that painting. We all have the right to an opinion about art but we are not entitled to forcing our opinions on those who create it.
- anextio 12y ago
  Other art forms have been subject to feminist and other criticism for a long time. Only recently has attention been turned to video games, as the genre is so new. The reaction from a minority in the video games community seems to view this criticism as an extraordinary attack, even some kind of corruption or conspiracy if you listen to some people on reddit. These recent controversies (#GamerGate included) look pretty transparent from people with no stakes in the game. A lot of really violent backlash against an industry that is growing up. If a book is published, it is allowed for journalists or other writers to say that this book is abhorrent for x, y, and z. It is also allowed for them to criticize and chastise the author for writing such an abhorrent book. This is not the same as censorship. When a large part of society condemns something for whatever reason, or if a certain segment wishes to use their arguments to try convince enough people that something should be condemned, this is a natural, largely unpredictable, and unrelenting process that happens all the time to reflect shifting social values and morals. It's folly to fight that, and the trick is predicting where it will go. In my opinion, that is how companies and institutions survive. A few years ago it might have been in (any random abstract) company's best interest to fire a gay employee. Regardless of the views of the decision maker at that company, for the sake of PR, this is the way it goes. These days, that decision goes the other way, particularly on the national scale. The game studios are subject to these kinds of effects too, and that is what what will hurt the status quo of games in the long run (although there are arguments to be made that the desired status quo is already long gone, I dunno, it's been a while since I was attached to the games industry).
- chipsy 12y ago
  There are many creators out there who want to remain completely uncritical. They are happy they made something, and they don't need to be told that they're doing it wrong, because their goals were internal and self-set from the beginning. But the whole premise of the artist even trying to speak to an audience is to decide what is important to say, what is necessary and what is unnecessary - both what the audience will like, and what is good for them to like. And so artists who are aiming not just to say anything, but to say the "best" things possible, eventually gravitate towards a critical lens. Critique is a discussion that is semi-private: It takes place between the critic and the artist, and not the audience as a whole. Audience members have the final decision in that they can walk away from the resulting discourse, but this doesn't mean that they need to intervene and announce which things should or should not be open for critique. When the audience does intervene directly in criticism, it generally amounts to bullying of either the critic or the artist, or sometimes both; it's not productive. Where this dialogue becomes messy is when the space of discussion has not been agreed upon: Should this discussion aim for criticism or not? If "no," simply say you're thinking that. But if you're presenting an argument to avoid criticism as a means of shutting down a criticism, you're being a bully.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
It's silly, because there's a difference between portraying something and endorsing it. Yet it seems there is a shocking number of people out there today who cannot make that difference.
bobcostas55 12y ago
There is literally nothing wrong with sexism or racism being present in games. It's just another American moralistic panic thing, like nudity or sex in games. Generally perpetrated by people unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality. Murdering hordes of people in brutal ways: perfectly fine. A nipple: THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Non-Politically Correct aspects: SOMEONE THINK OF...THE MINORITIES?
- Hytosys 12y ago
  What exactly is "non-politcally correct"? In what ways do discrimination and dehumanization of certain peoples involve politics? I hear you and agree that we should be allowed to explore fantasies. However, when one's sexist fantasies are similar to one's reality, intervention is reasonable. Concrete example: cat-calling.
  - gnarbarian 12y ago
    How is telling someone how to make their game any different than telling a woman how to dress?
    - Hytosys 12y ago
      I don't see how this is relevant as I did not suggest game makers should make different games. Rather I was simply commenting on the observation that there are social issues regarding sex and gender in our world, and that many video games showcase them (usually unintentionally).
      - gnarbarian 12y ago
        Can you name a single form of media that doesn't showcase sex and gender in our world? Also Why is this a bad thing?
Hytosys 12y ago
I fear that this comment spurred the wrong discussion. Sexism and racism addressed in video games is not the problem -- 12 Years a Slave, She's the Man, and 10 Things I Hate About You are not the problem. The problem is that games like Red Dead Redemption, Hitman, and Grand Theft Auto systematically reward sexist and racist behavior (tying a woman to train tracks, brutalizing prostitutes, etc.). Many refute the idea that video games can affect a player's long-term behavior, and as far as I know both sides of that argument are difficult to study and prove. I do hypothesize, however, that these video games reinforce or at least mimic the very real disregard and dehumanization of females in society. It's not so much video games that are the collective problem, it's people. EDIT: I am realizing this comment is being interpreted as if I were suggesting a ban on certain qualities of video games. I am not. I am only postulating some sort of parallel between video games and real life.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  These games reward violent behaviour against all kinds of people, all of the GTA games I played involved killing many more men than women and probably more whites than blacks.
- aikah 12y ago
  > The problem is that games like Red Dead Redemption, Hitman, and Grand Theft Auto systematically reward sexist and racist behavior (tying a woman to train tracks, brutalizing prostitutes, etc.). A game is a work of fiction.FICTION.it doesnt mean developpers fantasize on rape or that it will turn player into sex offenders.When did COD turn players into mass murderers ? never. When did GTA turn players into car jackers ? or thugs ? I remember new york city being pretty violent in the early 80's.GTA didnt exist... Game X or Y didnt make the nazi kill jews... or made Ted Bundy be what he was ... Reminds me Resident Evil 5 c"ontroversy" when "people" were outraged because players were killing blacks ... What the hell ? the game is set up in Africa, for christ sake...there will be some black people there ... RE5 didnt make the US south racist or lynch negros ...did it ? > Many refute the idea that video games can affect a player's long-term behavior, and as far as I know both sides of that argument are difficult to study and prove. Because people CAN tell the difference between reality and fiction.For those who cant , videogames are not to blame.They have issues at first place. So yes,let's continue to have violence against women,objectified women in video games,just like men are objectified and raped and killed in videogames. If only women were brutalized,you may have had a point,but that's not the case,at all. that's why all this social justice warfare against videogames is silly.These are just game and do not turn people into monsters,trolls,racists,rapists,killers or whatever. I want game artists to be able to express themself without fear of finger pointing by people totally unrelated to gaming. If players dont like it,then they will not buy it.Let the market work... So enough with all this already.A few people made a quick buck out of social justice warfare,good for them, but let us not fall for all that crap.
imaginenore 12y ago
Let's cater to every group of people then. Let's make games black and white so we don't offend colorblind people. No, let's remove graphics at all, because that excludes blind people. And no sound, that is exclusionary towards the deaf. You see, anybody can be offended by anything. You offend me by your dumb attempts to control art, for instance. So why don't you stop doing it?
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
Sure, I can explain that. I'll even quote from the article, because I think it's true: "Everyone brings their political agenda to the table when it comes to female characters in videogames; everyone complains if the women don’t match their particular vision. I start to wonder if the only way to win this game is not to have women at all." You are acting like there is one standard of racism and sexism that all reasonable people agree to. As soon as you do anything risky, you find out how untrue that is. And as the quote alludes to, you could hurt the representation of (in that case) women by playing it too safe. "Political correctness" is when the effort taken to avoid sexism and racism goes too far. And no, nobody agrees on that line either.

Can you explain to what extend it is "silly" to make an effort to avoid sexism or racism?

by jkscm 12y ago

Can you explain to what extend it is "silly" to make an effort to avoid sexism or racism?

It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. Arguments have been made that, say, for instance, the human trafficking ring in Watch Dogs (recent video game) shouldn't have ever existed because it's overtly sexist, despite the fact that you break it up at the end of the mission arc. (To which I say: That's what human trafficking is. Sexist? Ya think?! People are being sold into slavery and you focus on sexism?) Such arguments ring as hollow as the railing against violence in video games. Saying what kind of artwork people should and shouldn't make transcends all *isms into straight-up repressiveness.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
lewispollard 12y ago
If we're talking serious /art/, I think the distinction is really, is this potentially offensive thing making a point that betters the perceived meaning of the game, or is it there because of lazy writing and tropes? In all art forms, it's the former that's generally granted high status.
d1me 12y ago
> It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. I respectfully disagree. I think it's extremely important to have discussions about various -isms in fiction. Fiction is a huge part of how we understand and view the world around us, and if our fiction has distorted worldviews, then we should know about it. What I took away from that anecdote instead, is that tact is a thing and so is knowing what to say when, and that maybe charged opinions on tangential issues should be left to some occasion other than when your friend is trying to show you something that she worked really hard on.
- notduncansmith 12y ago
  > if our fiction has distorted worldviews, then we should know about it. You keep using that word, "fiction". I do not think it means what you think it means.
  - the_af 12y ago
    A lot has been written about how, for example, the best Science Fiction reflects something from the real world or makes us think about real world issues. It's, in my opinion, what turns good SF into truly great SF. There are even awards specifically made for SF that touches these real world issues (see the James Tiptree, Jr. Award [1], for example. And if you've never read fiction by Tiptree (R.I.P.), I strongly recommend her work!) So fiction often has meaning related to the real world. In my opinion it is entirely appropriate to worry when groups of people are generally misrepresented in fiction. Fiction that is completely divorced from reality is uninteresting to me and to a great deal many people. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr._Award http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tiptree,_Jr._Award
- Karunamon 12y ago
  Though there's a huge difference between "knowing about it" and railing against it. My takeaway is that the Anita Sarkeesians (the person who made the argument against Watch Dogs that I mentioned) of the world want the same thing the Jack Thompsons of the world do - suppression (not recognition, suppression) of that which makes them uncomfortable, using a very weak appeal to the greater good in an attempt to legitimize it. And on a more meta level, I have yet to see so much as one criticism of any particular video game for $isms that was simultaneously: * Completely factual * Well researched * Not misleading * Not judgmental as to the game's target audience If such a thing were to exist, I think it would be a great boon to both the cause of social justice warriors and video gaming as a maturing art form. Unfortunately, everyone that's gone down this path, that I'm aware of, seems to abandon all of the above and instead create shrill, judgmental, self-congratulatory pieces that cause people with any ounce of rationality to sigh and move on.

betenoire 12y ago

I don't think anyone said making an effort to avoid sexism or racism is silly.

pyre 12y ago

But to what extent? Are all game worlds supposed to represent an ideal utopia? E.g. is the antagonist being sexist supporting sexism or is it a commentary on sexism? What about 'historical' games? Do we eliminate references to the Holocaust in WW2-era games because it might offend someone? I think that this is where the arguments get fuzzy. Everyone has a different idea of where the line is drawn.

metafex 12y ago

Avoiding the topic of sexism and racism is worse than not talking about it. So yeah, avoiding it is silly: it helps nobody. What I was referring to, is the part of the article where everyone had to complain about something regarding the vision of the developers. My point was that it looks like it is a futile effort to comply with what everyone expects and that it is more important to concentrate being happy creating something.

gnarbarian 12y ago

Would you demand the same of other art forms? We don't tell artists what to paint. If something is offensive it's deemed 'powerful' for the emotions it's capable of invoking. If we hate it we move on and don't look at that painting. We all have the right to an opinion about art but we are not entitled to forcing our opinions on those who create it.

anextio 12y ago
Other art forms have been subject to feminist and other criticism for a long time. Only recently has attention been turned to video games, as the genre is so new. The reaction from a minority in the video games community seems to view this criticism as an extraordinary attack, even some kind of corruption or conspiracy if you listen to some people on reddit. These recent controversies (#GamerGate included) look pretty transparent from people with no stakes in the game. A lot of really violent backlash against an industry that is growing up. If a book is published, it is allowed for journalists or other writers to say that this book is abhorrent for x, y, and z. It is also allowed for them to criticize and chastise the author for writing such an abhorrent book. This is not the same as censorship. When a large part of society condemns something for whatever reason, or if a certain segment wishes to use their arguments to try convince enough people that something should be condemned, this is a natural, largely unpredictable, and unrelenting process that happens all the time to reflect shifting social values and morals. It's folly to fight that, and the trick is predicting where it will go. In my opinion, that is how companies and institutions survive. A few years ago it might have been in (any random abstract) company's best interest to fire a gay employee. Regardless of the views of the decision maker at that company, for the sake of PR, this is the way it goes. These days, that decision goes the other way, particularly on the national scale. The game studios are subject to these kinds of effects too, and that is what what will hurt the status quo of games in the long run (although there are arguments to be made that the desired status quo is already long gone, I dunno, it's been a while since I was attached to the games industry).
chipsy 12y ago
There are many creators out there who want to remain completely uncritical. They are happy they made something, and they don't need to be told that they're doing it wrong, because their goals were internal and self-set from the beginning. But the whole premise of the artist even trying to speak to an audience is to decide what is important to say, what is necessary and what is unnecessary - both what the audience will like, and what is good for them to like. And so artists who are aiming not just to say anything, but to say the "best" things possible, eventually gravitate towards a critical lens. Critique is a discussion that is semi-private: It takes place between the critic and the artist, and not the audience as a whole. Audience members have the final decision in that they can walk away from the resulting discourse, but this doesn't mean that they need to intervene and announce which things should or should not be open for critique. When the audience does intervene directly in criticism, it generally amounts to bullying of either the critic or the artist, or sometimes both; it's not productive. Where this dialogue becomes messy is when the space of discussion has not been agreed upon: Should this discussion aim for criticism or not? If "no," simply say you're thinking that. But if you're presenting an argument to avoid criticism as a means of shutting down a criticism, you're being a bully.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

It's silly, because there's a difference between portraying something and endorsing it. Yet it seems there is a shocking number of people out there today who cannot make that difference.

bobcostas55 12y ago

There is literally nothing wrong with sexism or racism being present in games. It's just another American moralistic panic thing, like nudity or sex in games. Generally perpetrated by people unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality. Murdering hordes of people in brutal ways: perfectly fine. A nipple: THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Non-Politically Correct aspects: SOMEONE THINK OF...THE MINORITIES?

Hytosys 12y ago
What exactly is "non-politcally correct"? In what ways do discrimination and dehumanization of certain peoples involve politics? I hear you and agree that we should be allowed to explore fantasies. However, when one's sexist fantasies are similar to one's reality, intervention is reasonable. Concrete example: cat-calling.
- gnarbarian 12y ago
  How is telling someone how to make their game any different than telling a woman how to dress?
  - Hytosys 12y ago
    I don't see how this is relevant as I did not suggest game makers should make different games. Rather I was simply commenting on the observation that there are social issues regarding sex and gender in our world, and that many video games showcase them (usually unintentionally).
    - gnarbarian 12y ago
      Can you name a single form of media that doesn't showcase sex and gender in our world? Also Why is this a bad thing?

Hytosys 12y ago

I fear that this comment spurred the wrong discussion. Sexism and racism addressed in video games is not the problem -- 12 Years a Slave, She's the Man, and 10 Things I Hate About You are not the problem. The problem is that games like Red Dead Redemption, Hitman, and Grand Theft Auto systematically reward sexist and racist behavior (tying a woman to train tracks, brutalizing prostitutes, etc.). Many refute the idea that video games can affect a player's long-term behavior, and as far as I know both sides of that argument are difficult to study and prove. I do hypothesize, however, that these video games reinforce or at least mimic the very real disregard and dehumanization of females in society. It's not so much video games that are the collective problem, it's people. EDIT: I am realizing this comment is being interpreted as if I were suggesting a ban on certain qualities of video games. I am not. I am only postulating some sort of parallel between video games and real life.

jiggy2011 12y ago
These games reward violent behaviour against all kinds of people, all of the GTA games I played involved killing many more men than women and probably more whites than blacks.
aikah 12y ago
> The problem is that games like Red Dead Redemption, Hitman, and Grand Theft Auto systematically reward sexist and racist behavior (tying a woman to train tracks, brutalizing prostitutes, etc.). A game is a work of fiction.FICTION.it doesnt mean developpers fantasize on rape or that it will turn player into sex offenders.When did COD turn players into mass murderers ? never. When did GTA turn players into car jackers ? or thugs ? I remember new york city being pretty violent in the early 80's.GTA didnt exist... Game X or Y didnt make the nazi kill jews... or made Ted Bundy be what he was ... Reminds me Resident Evil 5 c"ontroversy" when "people" were outraged because players were killing blacks ... What the hell ? the game is set up in Africa, for christ sake...there will be some black people there ... RE5 didnt make the US south racist or lynch negros ...did it ? > Many refute the idea that video games can affect a player's long-term behavior, and as far as I know both sides of that argument are difficult to study and prove. Because people CAN tell the difference between reality and fiction.For those who cant , videogames are not to blame.They have issues at first place. So yes,let's continue to have violence against women,objectified women in video games,just like men are objectified and raped and killed in videogames. If only women were brutalized,you may have had a point,but that's not the case,at all. that's why all this social justice warfare against videogames is silly.These are just game and do not turn people into monsters,trolls,racists,rapists,killers or whatever. I want game artists to be able to express themself without fear of finger pointing by people totally unrelated to gaming. If players dont like it,then they will not buy it.Let the market work... So enough with all this already.A few people made a quick buck out of social justice warfare,good for them, but let us not fall for all that crap.

imaginenore 12y ago

Let's cater to every group of people then. Let's make games black and white so we don't offend colorblind people. No, let's remove graphics at all, because that excludes blind people. And no sound, that is exclusionary towards the deaf. You see, anybody can be offended by anything. You offend me by your dumb attempts to control art, for instance. So why don't you stop doing it?

A_COMPUTER 12y ago

Sure, I can explain that. I'll even quote from the article, because I think it's true: "Everyone brings their political agenda to the table when it comes to female characters in videogames; everyone complains if the women don’t match their particular vision. I start to wonder if the only way to win this game is not to have women at all." You are acting like there is one standard of racism and sexism that all reasonable people agree to. As soon as you do anything risky, you find out how untrue that is. And as the quote alludes to, you could hurt the representation of (in that case) women by playing it too safe. "Political correctness" is when the effort taken to avoid sexism and racism goes too far. And no, nobody agrees on that line either.