11 ms·

Apple Pay

185 points by andreiursan 12y ago

plg 12y ago
Apple Pay? Pay Apple.
kawera 12y ago
From all of today's announcements, this may be what really moves the needles (!)
- junto 12y ago
  Saying that, I would love to have been a fly on the wall after last weeks iCloud celebrity photos hack. Apple's partners in this, including Visa, Mastercard and Amercian Express, as well as all those prominent banks must have been looking for reassurances that payment and card data was going to be safe. It must have been an embarassing week.
  - djrogers 12y ago
    "Apple's partners in this, including Visa, Mastercard and Amercian Express, as well as all those prominent banks must have been looking for reassurances that payment and card data was going to be safe. It must have been an embarassing week." Considering that Apple/iCloud doesn't store any payment or card data with Apple pay, and that the hack in question wasn't due to any specific weakness in Apple/iCloud infrastructure, I very much doubt there were any reassurances required...
jasonbarone 12y ago
How are they deciding who can accept Apple Pay in stores? For instance, how do mom and pop shops who use Square readers get on board with Apple Pay? Is it safe to assume that in the future, an iPhone itself can be a device that ACCEPTS payments too?
- jvm 12y ago
  They did not announce a POS (point of sale), but I imagine if this takes off there will be more innovation in the NFC POS space. They're just using existing NFC POS that currently take Google Wallet, there's nothing special about the fact that it takes Apple Pay.
- cjjuice 12y ago
  Jack Dorsey just posted on twitter that square will support Apple Pay. https://twitter.com/jack/status/509413534862544896 https://twitter.com/jack/status/509413534862544896
  - jasonbarone 12y ago
    How will they actually accept the payment though? Apple Pay requires Touch ID (or Apple Watch), which is the consumer's device. Does that mean there will be an API for 3rd party developers to ACCEPT Apple Pay over the air? Or do they have to build a special Card Reader? Or would they have to bring back an Apple Pay supported Square Wallet app?
    - ajju 12y ago
      All POS systems that support NFC payments (which is most of the new ones I believe) support Apple pay by default.
    - cjjuice 12y ago
      I believe apple pay is just using same nfc infrastructure already in place for a while. The same infrastructure google wallet and others are targeting.
    - stock_toaster 12y ago
      I imagine they would have to have a new device for chip/pin chip/signature anyway. My guess is they are just adding NFC to the new device while they are at it.
- clairity 12y ago
  i asked your last question earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291637) and got downvoted (whatever that means). i know that nfc can support two-way communication so was wondering if anyone knows offhand if apple's api exposes this option. if so, it should be possible to also accept payment using apple pay (hopefully new ipads get nfc in the next revision to support this).
allegory 12y ago
What I want to know, having a contactless card, is what do you do when the machine isn't working. You can't swipe it or use the chip in this case. Then you're screwed. If you have to carry the card anyway to get around this, what's the point other than showing everyone you have an iPhone, which at least in London is a quick way to get cracked over the head.
- junto 12y ago
  Though I take your point about the backup options of swipe and chip, I'm guessing some Stratford mugger is just as happy mugging you for your wallet full of credit cards and cash as they are to bash you over the head for your iphone.
  - nwh 12y ago
    You use your fingerprint to activate the NFC, so they'd have to bash you over the head and cut off your fingers presumably.
- stefan_kendall3 12y ago
  I don't like taking out my wallet and dicking with cards mixed with insurance cards and IDs and other stupid things I need to keep on me in case I'm stopped by the gestapo. My phone is already out anywhere I'm buying things. Makes sense to pay with that instead of fishing for something else.
- ehhuang 12y ago
  what do you do now when the credit card machine isn't working? There's always going to be a point of failure.
  - unsignedint 12y ago
    Actually, if those card machines are out of order, merchants can use an old fashioned imprinter device so they can send it in to get paid for it...
- happyscrappy 12y ago
DGCA 12y ago
I really hope this doesn't end up fragmenting the NFC payments space. Only Apple Pay is accepted in one place, and only Google Wallet is accepted in another. Both of these technologies work with contactless card readers, let's just stick with that.
- UVB-76 12y ago
  A bit like Visa/Mastercard cards, I doubt any merchants are going to deliberately limit the type of NFC payments they accept.
  - post_break 12y ago
    ISIS already limits it to ISIS only.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      FYI Isis changed their name to Softcard to sound less terroristy http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/isis-mobile-wallet-app-changes-name-to-softcard.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/isis-mobile-wallet-...
      - post_break 12y ago
        Gotcha. Well they still deny google wallet on their POS machines.
        jaggederest 12y ago
        And people will still continue to ignore them as though there were no reader at all.
      - chadgeidel 12y ago
        Thanks, I was going to Google and then thought "there's no way I will get relevant results"
      - 12y ago
rnernento 12y ago
I think I'm missing something on this, but how is it possible Apple isn't storing credit card information on the device or their servers? How are they connecting the payments you make with Apple pay back to the credit card you choose to use.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- cgs1019 12y ago
  I'm guessing they have established relationships with the card issuer and will use your card number only once to establish the link, after which the card info isn't needed.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- moonlighter 12y ago
  See here: http://clover-developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html http://clover-developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html
  - dzhiurgis 12y ago
    Why this site is asking me for some sort of certificate access? And once you select whatever certificate, another Safari process nags for access.
  - ipince 12y ago
    Hate it when articles don't define their acronyms. PAN = primary account number. EMV = Europay, MasterCard, Visa. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV
    - silversmith 12y ago
      Given the target audience of that blog, those seem to be perfectly reasonable things to leave out. I mean, do you expect programming blogs to define 'API'?
0sense 12y ago
Apple pay is an interesting and natural move from Apple. They probably have the largest number of credit cards info on earth. I think this business can eventually become larger than the iTunes if they execute it well. I couldnt find any information on whether Apple pay users can use this for online purchases or not. If they do this may be their next move will be to naturally be the Paypal competitor.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jobu 12y ago
  Does Apple charge anything for the transaction?
  - wmeredith 12y ago
    I'm REALLY curious about this. Will they charge a transaction fee and have it as another revenue stream for them (like iTunes/App store)? Or is it going to be another commoditization of their competitor's/partners products in order to move more hardware (like iMessage). If it's the latter that would be a HUGE deal. I just can't imagine they would be able to resist taking a slice of that $12 billion/day transaction pie, though.
    - jumhyn 12y ago
      The implication from Tim was that Apple was not trying to make money off of this. He said that ApplePay would be successful because competitors tried to turn it into a profitable system for them, instead of focusing on making it work.
    - PanMan 12y ago
      For the online version they seem to work with stripe et.al. And not charge anything.
  - arfrank 12y ago
    Looks like Apple's commission is ~15-25 BPS for participating banks (from those banks): "The biggest “surprise” over last 2 months is that Apple has squeezed 15-25bps from the 5-6 participating banks at launch (C, BAC, COF, JPM, Amex and perhaps WFC)." http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855 http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855
stevederico 12y ago
Does this work on the web or just in-app? What is Apple's Commission?
- somesaba 12y ago
  I am confused by this as well. I thought apple did not allow people to make credit card purchases within an app, am I wrong or will these rules change? Where is the line drawn for using an IAP vs Apple Pay (where I presume Apple takes no cut)
  - oddevan 12y ago
    I think traditionally Apple has disallowed IAP for real-world goods. I'm assuming Apple Pay will be for those real-world goods while IAP is still used for digital goods.
    - gress 12y ago
      Yes, the docs say exactly this.
- arfrank 12y ago
  Looks like Apple's commission is ~15-25 BPS for participating banks The biggest “surprise” over last 2 months is that Apple has squeezed 15-25bps from the 5-6 participating banks at launch (C, BAC, COF, JPM, Amex and perhaps WFC). http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855 http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855
guybrushT 12y ago
Couldn't help smiling at this marketing messages from Apple about Apple Pay - “We have security integrated throughout both hardware and software in a way only Apple can." “Apple Pay is easy, secure, and private.” I would have loved if they would have gone beyond the marketing messages, and explained in some more detail about how they have made this secure, what improvements they have made (to TouchID etc) over previous versions and how a user can use it without worry.
- ddebernardy 12y ago
  They did so at length, particularly when presenting Apple Pay.
panabee 12y ago
One implication of Apple Pay is it erodes advantages of leaders like Uber. Minimizing payment and account friction means trying a new service becomes much easier.
- eevilspock 12y ago
  The same way the App Store did that for software purchases.
  - panabee 12y ago
    Yes, though unlike the App Store, this will take much longer to unfold since there is so much infrastructure out of Apple's control. But Apple Pay should galvanize the payments and commerce industries, eventually leading to much greater competition among retailers and service providers -- and more benefits to consumers.
- arfrank 12y ago
  It erodes, but also enables you to focus on your companies core competency rather than payments. Also viewing this through the lens that e-commerce view shopping cart conversion rates, this might up initial conversion for new services, which in Uber cases is a win. Just forces everyone to focus more on product.
- badusername 12y ago
  Exactly the opposite seems to be true. Uber had a presence in the keynote today with a way to ride without ever creating a login, which should enable lot more people to use the service. If you thought that the advantage Uber had was mostly was in minimizing payment friction, that would be pretty wrong.
  - panabee 12y ago
    It would be pretty wrong. Which is why that wasn't the statement. :) Especially for services like transportation, which are commoditizing faster than they're not, removing the need to create accounts and enter credit cards increases consumer willingness to try alternate services. For example, if an aggregator shows a Sidecar 2 min away and an Uber 10 min away, Apple Pay now makes it vastly easier for an Uber customer to try Sidecar for the first time.
julianpye 12y ago
Can someone local find out where exactly the Antenna is? Nokia devices have been great at this with the touchpoint at the edges, which feels natural, while most Android devices have an awkward spot somewhere in the lower middle. Is it on the Apple logo? This may still make it feel awkward to use.
- amitparikh 12y ago
  The Verge (among others) is reporting that the antenna is located along the top edge of the phone [1]. Photos of the Apple Pay gesture in action on the slides seems to corroborate this. And my gut tells me that this is a secondary reason for why they moved the power button over to the right side of the phone (primary reason being to accommodate smaller hands with the larger screen sizes). [1] http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/9/6107091/apple-watch-iphone-6-most-important-things http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/9/6107091/apple-watch-iphone-...
  - julianpye 12y ago
    Thanks! That sounds indeed as if they tried to optimize the experience. Watching people try finding the NFC sweetspot by swiping the bottom of their device around on a reader deviceis painful.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- craigching 12y ago
  Apple showed where it was during the event, I don't recall exactly where it is in the stream, but it's there. It's on the top of the phone.
adorton 12y ago
This seems similar to Google Wallet, which has been around for a few years. How does Apple plan to make this a bigger success?
- Nickoladze 12y ago
  Hopefully this means stores will actually install the NFC readers or whatever.
  - dangoor 12y ago
    One interesting unrelated development: the US is moving to chip-and-PIN cards next year. Merchants that don't move over to the new system (in other words, those that still take signatures instead of having you do the chip-and-PIN thing) will be responsible for fraud that occurs in their stores... so merchants will switch. If merchants are getting new credit card terminals anyhow, it seems likely they'd get NFC compatible ones. I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago...
    - baddox 12y ago
      My Bank of America Visa recently expired, and the new one they sent me has what appears to be chip and pin. Weirdly, there is no information in the included pamphlet about the technology. I assume they're just preemptively putting the cards out there.
      - Sanddancer 12y ago
        I got a chip and pin card from wells fargo a couple months back, and the actual pin came in an envelope a few weeks after the card.
      - HeavenFox 12y ago
        They've been issuing them for a while. It's not chip and pin, but chip and signature. afaik no major US bank issue chip and pin yet.
      - 12y ago
KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago
I have to admit, I'm an apple hater but... this actually changes everything. Maybe time to buy the new iphone.
JimmaDaRustla 12y ago
From what I gather, it's a tokenized mobile payment system using NFC. The cool part would be the "dynamic security code" - essentially a 2 factor authentication. Most likely performs a card not present transaction on a back-end system, not sure how they wouldn't store the card number though. I imagine each merchant will have to get setup to acquire finds from this payment method. I'm fine with this - I believe 2 factor authentication and tokenization is the way to go with payments, but I'm hoping for some innovation on the POS end so that the payment networks have a standardization. Edit: I'm the opposite of an Apple fan, but network based payment tokenization with 2 factor authentication is something I've been preaching for a while now!!
itry 12y ago
So we want to make payments via our phones. My first thought would be to create a protocol for this. Instead we get ApplePay and GoogleWallet and whatnot. If the internet was invented today, we would have AppleMail instead of email and GoogleTrans instead of http.
- tdicola 12y ago
  The cynic in me winces when thinking of the mess all the banks and interested companies would make trying to get together and build a payment standard. Just look at the terrible mess of stuff like OFX.
  - dclusin 12y ago
    FIX
    - sirn 12y ago
      Ah, a standard protocol where nobody implements the standard in the same way. As someone who has been working with FIX for few months, I could totally feel the pain.
      - dclusin 12y ago
        Don't forget defining your own custom tag for things that already exist in the set of standard tags.
  - itry 12y ago
    Bitcoin might be a way around this. Also it might not be necessary for the involved parties to get together. They could release different protocols. And then the lesser used will be forgotten (like gopher is forgotten today) and the more frequent used will survive (like http has survived). Update: Why the downvotes?
    - shitlord 12y ago
      Most people either haven't heard of Bitcoin or regard Bitcoins as "internet fun bux". It's not happening (at least, not in 2014).
hrktb 12y ago
Japan has a flourishing NFC payment ecosystem, and it's strange it's completely left out on this announcement. Would they have given early access and bundled the Suica app for instance, they could have boasted millions of users from the get go. I wonder if the upcoming API is even compatible with the Felica standard, but that would be a weird thing to do.
- sosborn 12y ago
  Japan's NFC payment ecosystem is owned by Sony and DoCoMo. I highly doubt that Apple wanted to subject themselves to the license terms and/or the lack of technical control. That system is also widely deployed but in my experience (9 years of living there, no evidence other than anecdotal) not widely used.
  - hrktb 12y ago
    Docomo is pretty willing to open up their technology to expand the ecosystem (that's what they did with Softbank and au, and JR also has a part in it), because they know it would die if they kept it for themselves. And that's openly one of the role of BitWallet, the joint venture they made for the solution. Actually I really hoped they could do something with that outside of Japan. I think regarding to NFC, it really depends on where you live. I was commuting on a JR line, and having Mobile Suica combine with Edy was such a boon that I could forget my wallet I wouldn't care. Just having your phone means you can ride the train, buy anything at the convince store, pay the restaurant (you may have less choice, but there's a lot of them accepting Edy or another service), buy music or electronics, and buy drinks from vending machines. It's almost surreal how much you can do. I later moved to the Keikyuu line and it was still great, but less magical. In terms of technical control, Apple already choose "standard NFC" (at least that's the quote I have on the liveblog), and I would guess they are bound by Visa and Amex for the implementation. A priori Felica is part of the NFC standard, IF it supports the encrypted protocol it should be OK to have everything as third party apps.
    - sdrothrock 12y ago
      > having Mobile Suica combine with Edy Not to mention the Suica + Pasmo combination a year or so ago that meant you didn't have to carry around two cards anymore. It was pretty amazing. It's at a point now where I'm really reluctant to buy phones that don't have mobile Suica/osaifu keitai support.
ycombinatoracc 12y ago
From a company that keeps your pictures secure comes secure credit card wallet, you couldn't make it up :rollseyes:
- Quasimoto3000 12y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there no connection between Apple and the leaks?
  - swang 12y ago
    You are wrong. Apple says there was no "security breach" except their lack of security for the FindMyIphone website caused the breach. Mainly they exploited the fact that the FindMyIphone website did not throttle the number of login attempts. So you can do it as many times as possible. Apple deflected this by "denying" that any usernames or passwords were leaked, but in reality it is their fault that the accounts were compromised.
    - djrogers 12y ago
      Except the FMI flaw is only tenuously linked to the breach - with more evidence pointing away from it (i.e. timeline of how long the photos have been offered for sale, disclosures by other photo-hackers, etc) than toward it. There was early speculation that the flaw was at fault, but no confirmation from anyone. Go ahead though - blame that bug, because Apple.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    I think you are wrong. Unlimited incorrect log-in attempts and security credentials in plain text are a connection to Apple.
- ycombinatoracc 12y ago
  Oh look it Apple fanaticism is alive and well, one gets down-voted for pointing out that Apple can not be trusted with security in light of recent events
es09 12y ago
Anyone else seeing a 'Phishing attack ahead'? Chrome is complaining that Google Safe browsing detected an ongoing phishing attack.
- mwenge 12y ago
  Yup, me too!
- papaf 12y ago
  Firefox is saying the same thing for me. In fact, I thought that was the point of the link (to show apple.com is marked as a phishing attempt).
- geuis 12y ago
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/69iobxqcu6ie2v0/Screenshot%202014-09-09%2013.35.32.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/69iobxqcu6ie2v0/Screenshot%202014-...
- masklinn 12y ago
  Might be because of their redirection shenanigans, starting yesterday apple.com was a 301 (permanent redirect) to apple.com/live, might sudden changes back and fro be interpreted as phishing attacks?
- deweller 12y ago
  And just like that, now it is magically fixed.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
mladenkovacevic 12y ago
I've been "tapping to pay" with my credit cards here in Canada for the better part of the last 2 years. Does this use the same technology?
- tcheard 12y ago
  Yes I believe it is. Credit cards use the EMV protocol over the ISO14443 transmission protocol. I believe this is doing the same.
- arecurrence 12y ago
  Yes
pinedapple 12y ago
What is Apple's Cut going to be to use Apple Pay ? 1. Say, I have an app that will Apple Pay. So in addition to 30% cut made by Apple for my app will using Apple Pay cost more ? 2. I understand this will require NFC terminal to recognize the payment through Apple Pay but that's in physical store. If I already have some payment method setup for my app why should I choose to use Apple Pay ? or I guess my question is Apple already stores credit cards. While purchasing apps you can already do with one click. How Apple Pay is different ?
- arstudio 12y ago
  Apple Pay is intended for purchasing items in Stores, not apps. Apple Pay won't change anything about purchasing apps / in-app purchases. Apple Pay won't take a 30% cut of every transaction.
  - traek 12y ago
    That's inaccurate, Apple Pay also has an in-app payment component. From their website: "Apple Pay lets you use iPhone 6 to pay in stores and within apps in an easy, secure, and private way."
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- archagon 12y ago
  Given that they don't even know how much you're spending (as per the keynote), I doubt they're doing a surcharge.
  - archagon 12y ago
    I stand corrected, Bloomberg says a fee will be collected. The agreement is between Apple and the banks. http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/10/apple-collecting-bank-fee-apple-pay-purchase/ http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/10/apple-collecting-bank-fe...
SunboX 12y ago
Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
SunboX 12y ago
Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
SunboX 12y ago
Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?
- RayLau135 12y ago
  Contactless?
- lifeformed 12y ago
  No thanks, just cash.
gregoire 12y ago
So one should use Apple Pay when paying in apps, but the credit card stored in iCloud Keychain when paying on the web? I find it a bit confusing.
dcaunt 12y ago
Does anyone know why exactly payments in apps also require the iPhone 6? I thought that iPhone 5S also had a secure element for storing data (Touch ID).
- arstudio 12y ago
  The iPhone 6 / 6 Plus include an NFC transducer, whereas the old hardware does not include the ability to operate at this wavelength (13.56 MHz)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
mnglkhn2 12y ago
ApplePay is only on iPhone 6. This means that the availability rate for this technology will get into (tens of) millions in a couple of years, based on the update cycle with the phone carriers. Realistically we're talking 2-4 yrs. Plenty of time for providers to get acquainted with the technology and to integrate it into their retail systems. For developers it would be interesting to see how the API looks like and if it will be available at all in any shape or form (which I doubt actually).
- jfb 12y ago
  Also on the watch.
  - RayLau135 12y ago
    iPhone 5 and 5s will be pair-able with Apple Watch, so I would assume they will have access to Apple Pay too
    - AaronIG 12y ago
      According to the Apple Pay site, that'll be the case for in-store purchases.
- madeofpalk 12y ago
  Apply Pay uses the same tech as existing contactless payments, like PayWave or PayPass, so the availability is already pretty high.
- aeontech 12y ago
  > For developers it would be interesting to see how the API looks like and if it will be available at all in any shape or form (which I doubt actually). Well it's already available through Stripe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8292026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8292026 - so I'm pretty sure there's good news ahead :) more info: https://developer.apple.com/apple-pay/ https://developer.apple.com/apple-pay/
- djrogers 12y ago
LunaSea 12y ago
No-contact payment is exactly the kind of secure piece of engineering we needed. Especially after the iCloud debacle. /s
- joshdick 12y ago
  Actually, this has been working great in other first-world countries for years. The U.S. is one of the last places to get this.
- andyhmltn 12y ago
  Apple doesn't store the card details on their servers. So that's irrelevant.
  - LunaSea 12y ago
    If someone steels your iPhone it's not.
    - andyhmltn 12y ago
      Well, they would have to steal your thumb as well. That's the whole point: It's encrypted using TouchID
outside1234 12y ago
Shame on us if we let one company control this.
userbinator 12y ago
I bet Apple would've named it iPay if it weren't for the fact that iPay has already been taken by a ton of other payment-processing-related things.
- robmcm 12y ago
  Same with iTV (ITV in the UK) and iPhone back in the day etc. I think we are seeing a move to Apple <Product Name>, partly because of this and partly because the Apple brand is so strong.
cdnsteve 12y ago
Shared my thoughts in another HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8294599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8294599
Sriraman 12y ago
Will it work in India ?
ksec 12y ago
Slightly Off Topic, Does anyone know if there are any plans to speed up the NFC process? The current one being used by MasterCard and Visa are all very slow. It takes like 3 seconds, compared to Sony's Felica which happens under 0.3 seconds.

Apple Pay

185 points by andreiursan 12y ago

plg 12y ago

Apple Pay? Pay Apple.

kawera 12y ago

From all of today's announcements, this may be what really moves the needles (!)

junto 12y ago
Saying that, I would love to have been a fly on the wall after last weeks iCloud celebrity photos hack. Apple's partners in this, including Visa, Mastercard and Amercian Express, as well as all those prominent banks must have been looking for reassurances that payment and card data was going to be safe. It must have been an embarassing week.
- djrogers 12y ago
  "Apple's partners in this, including Visa, Mastercard and Amercian Express, as well as all those prominent banks must have been looking for reassurances that payment and card data was going to be safe. It must have been an embarassing week." Considering that Apple/iCloud doesn't store any payment or card data with Apple pay, and that the hack in question wasn't due to any specific weakness in Apple/iCloud infrastructure, I very much doubt there were any reassurances required...

jasonbarone 12y ago

How are they deciding who can accept Apple Pay in stores? For instance, how do mom and pop shops who use Square readers get on board with Apple Pay? Is it safe to assume that in the future, an iPhone itself can be a device that ACCEPTS payments too?

jvm 12y ago
They did not announce a POS (point of sale), but I imagine if this takes off there will be more innovation in the NFC POS space. They're just using existing NFC POS that currently take Google Wallet, there's nothing special about the fact that it takes Apple Pay.
cjjuice 12y ago
Jack Dorsey just posted on twitter that square will support Apple Pay. https://twitter.com/jack/status/509413534862544896 https://twitter.com/jack/status/509413534862544896
- jasonbarone 12y ago
  How will they actually accept the payment though? Apple Pay requires Touch ID (or Apple Watch), which is the consumer's device. Does that mean there will be an API for 3rd party developers to ACCEPT Apple Pay over the air? Or do they have to build a special Card Reader? Or would they have to bring back an Apple Pay supported Square Wallet app?
  - ajju 12y ago
    All POS systems that support NFC payments (which is most of the new ones I believe) support Apple pay by default.
  - cjjuice 12y ago
    I believe apple pay is just using same nfc infrastructure already in place for a while. The same infrastructure google wallet and others are targeting.
  - stock_toaster 12y ago
    I imagine they would have to have a new device for chip/pin chip/signature anyway. My guess is they are just adding NFC to the new device while they are at it.
clairity 12y ago
i asked your last question earlier (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291637) and got downvoted (whatever that means). i know that nfc can support two-way communication so was wondering if anyone knows offhand if apple's api exposes this option. if so, it should be possible to also accept payment using apple pay (hopefully new ipads get nfc in the next revision to support this).

allegory 12y ago

What I want to know, having a contactless card, is what do you do when the machine isn't working. You can't swipe it or use the chip in this case. Then you're screwed. If you have to carry the card anyway to get around this, what's the point other than showing everyone you have an iPhone, which at least in London is a quick way to get cracked over the head.

junto 12y ago
Though I take your point about the backup options of swipe and chip, I'm guessing some Stratford mugger is just as happy mugging you for your wallet full of credit cards and cash as they are to bash you over the head for your iphone.
- nwh 12y ago
  You use your fingerprint to activate the NFC, so they'd have to bash you over the head and cut off your fingers presumably.
stefan_kendall3 12y ago
I don't like taking out my wallet and dicking with cards mixed with insurance cards and IDs and other stupid things I need to keep on me in case I'm stopped by the gestapo. My phone is already out anywhere I'm buying things. Makes sense to pay with that instead of fishing for something else.
ehhuang 12y ago
what do you do now when the credit card machine isn't working? There's always going to be a point of failure.
- unsignedint 12y ago
  Actually, if those card machines are out of order, merchants can use an old fashioned imprinter device so they can send it in to get paid for it...
happyscrappy 12y ago

DGCA 12y ago

I really hope this doesn't end up fragmenting the NFC payments space. Only Apple Pay is accepted in one place, and only Google Wallet is accepted in another. Both of these technologies work with contactless card readers, let's just stick with that.

UVB-76 12y ago
A bit like Visa/Mastercard cards, I doubt any merchants are going to deliberately limit the type of NFC payments they accept.
- post_break 12y ago
  ISIS already limits it to ISIS only.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    FYI Isis changed their name to Softcard to sound less terroristy http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/isis-mobile-wallet-app-changes-name-to-softcard.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-03/isis-mobile-wallet-...
    - post_break 12y ago
      Gotcha. Well they still deny google wallet on their POS machines.
      - jaggederest 12y ago
        And people will still continue to ignore them as though there were no reader at all.
    - chadgeidel 12y ago
      Thanks, I was going to Google and then thought "there's no way I will get relevant results"
    - 12y ago

rnernento 12y ago

I think I'm missing something on this, but how is it possible Apple isn't storing credit card information on the device or their servers? How are they connecting the payments you make with Apple pay back to the credit card you choose to use.

deleted 12y ago
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cgs1019 12y ago
I'm guessing they have established relationships with the card issuer and will use your card number only once to establish the link, after which the card info isn't needed.
deleted 12y ago
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moonlighter 12y ago
See here: http://clover-developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html http://clover-developers.blogspot.com/2014/09/apple-pay.html
- dzhiurgis 12y ago
  Why this site is asking me for some sort of certificate access? And once you select whatever certificate, another Safari process nags for access.
- ipince 12y ago
  Hate it when articles don't define their acronyms. PAN = primary account number. EMV = Europay, MasterCard, Visa. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV
  - silversmith 12y ago
    Given the target audience of that blog, those seem to be perfectly reasonable things to leave out. I mean, do you expect programming blogs to define 'API'?

0sense 12y ago

Apple pay is an interesting and natural move from Apple. They probably have the largest number of credit cards info on earth. I think this business can eventually become larger than the iTunes if they execute it well. I couldnt find any information on whether Apple pay users can use this for online purchases or not. If they do this may be their next move will be to naturally be the Paypal competitor.

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jobu 12y ago
Does Apple charge anything for the transaction?
- wmeredith 12y ago
  I'm REALLY curious about this. Will they charge a transaction fee and have it as another revenue stream for them (like iTunes/App store)? Or is it going to be another commoditization of their competitor's/partners products in order to move more hardware (like iMessage). If it's the latter that would be a HUGE deal. I just can't imagine they would be able to resist taking a slice of that $12 billion/day transaction pie, though.
  - jumhyn 12y ago
    The implication from Tim was that Apple was not trying to make money off of this. He said that ApplePay would be successful because competitors tried to turn it into a profitable system for them, instead of focusing on making it work.
  - PanMan 12y ago
    For the online version they seem to work with stripe et.al. And not charge anything.
- arfrank 12y ago
  Looks like Apple's commission is ~15-25 BPS for participating banks (from those banks): "The biggest “surprise” over last 2 months is that Apple has squeezed 15-25bps from the 5-6 participating banks at launch (C, BAC, COF, JPM, Amex and perhaps WFC)." http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855 http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855

stevederico 12y ago

Does this work on the web or just in-app? What is Apple's Commission?

somesaba 12y ago
I am confused by this as well. I thought apple did not allow people to make credit card purchases within an app, am I wrong or will these rules change? Where is the line drawn for using an IAP vs Apple Pay (where I presume Apple takes no cut)
- oddevan 12y ago
  I think traditionally Apple has disallowed IAP for real-world goods. I'm assuming Apple Pay will be for those real-world goods while IAP is still used for digital goods.
  - gress 12y ago
    Yes, the docs say exactly this.
arfrank 12y ago
Looks like Apple's commission is ~15-25 BPS for participating banks The biggest “surprise” over last 2 months is that Apple has squeezed 15-25bps from the 5-6 participating banks at launch (C, BAC, COF, JPM, Amex and perhaps WFC). http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855 http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=3855

guybrushT 12y ago

Couldn't help smiling at this marketing messages from Apple about Apple Pay - “We have security integrated throughout both hardware and software in a way only Apple can." “Apple Pay is easy, secure, and private.” I would have loved if they would have gone beyond the marketing messages, and explained in some more detail about how they have made this secure, what improvements they have made (to TouchID etc) over previous versions and how a user can use it without worry.

ddebernardy 12y ago
They did so at length, particularly when presenting Apple Pay.

panabee 12y ago

One implication of Apple Pay is it erodes advantages of leaders like Uber. Minimizing payment and account friction means trying a new service becomes much easier.

eevilspock 12y ago
The same way the App Store did that for software purchases.
- panabee 12y ago
  Yes, though unlike the App Store, this will take much longer to unfold since there is so much infrastructure out of Apple's control. But Apple Pay should galvanize the payments and commerce industries, eventually leading to much greater competition among retailers and service providers -- and more benefits to consumers.
arfrank 12y ago
It erodes, but also enables you to focus on your companies core competency rather than payments. Also viewing this through the lens that e-commerce view shopping cart conversion rates, this might up initial conversion for new services, which in Uber cases is a win. Just forces everyone to focus more on product.
badusername 12y ago
Exactly the opposite seems to be true. Uber had a presence in the keynote today with a way to ride without ever creating a login, which should enable lot more people to use the service. If you thought that the advantage Uber had was mostly was in minimizing payment friction, that would be pretty wrong.
- panabee 12y ago
  It would be pretty wrong. Which is why that wasn't the statement. :) Especially for services like transportation, which are commoditizing faster than they're not, removing the need to create accounts and enter credit cards increases consumer willingness to try alternate services. For example, if an aggregator shows a Sidecar 2 min away and an Uber 10 min away, Apple Pay now makes it vastly easier for an Uber customer to try Sidecar for the first time.

julianpye 12y ago

Can someone local find out where exactly the Antenna is? Nokia devices have been great at this with the touchpoint at the edges, which feels natural, while most Android devices have an awkward spot somewhere in the lower middle. Is it on the Apple logo? This may still make it feel awkward to use.

amitparikh 12y ago
The Verge (among others) is reporting that the antenna is located along the top edge of the phone [1]. Photos of the Apple Pay gesture in action on the slides seems to corroborate this. And my gut tells me that this is a secondary reason for why they moved the power button over to the right side of the phone (primary reason being to accommodate smaller hands with the larger screen sizes). [1] http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/9/6107091/apple-watch-iphone-6-most-important-things http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/9/6107091/apple-watch-iphone-...
- julianpye 12y ago
  Thanks! That sounds indeed as if they tried to optimize the experience. Watching people try finding the NFC sweetspot by swiping the bottom of their device around on a reader deviceis painful.
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craigching 12y ago
Apple showed where it was during the event, I don't recall exactly where it is in the stream, but it's there. It's on the top of the phone.

adorton 12y ago

This seems similar to Google Wallet, which has been around for a few years. How does Apple plan to make this a bigger success?

Nickoladze 12y ago
Hopefully this means stores will actually install the NFC readers or whatever.
- dangoor 12y ago
  One interesting unrelated development: the US is moving to chip-and-PIN cards next year. Merchants that don't move over to the new system (in other words, those that still take signatures instead of having you do the chip-and-PIN thing) will be responsible for fraud that occurs in their stores... so merchants will switch. If merchants are getting new credit card terminals anyhow, it seems likely they'd get NFC compatible ones. I noticed that the Whole Foods near me just changed their credit card terminals a couple of weeks ago...
  - baddox 12y ago
    My Bank of America Visa recently expired, and the new one they sent me has what appears to be chip and pin. Weirdly, there is no information in the included pamphlet about the technology. I assume they're just preemptively putting the cards out there.
    - Sanddancer 12y ago
      I got a chip and pin card from wells fargo a couple months back, and the actual pin came in an envelope a few weeks after the card.
    - HeavenFox 12y ago
      They've been issuing them for a while. It's not chip and pin, but chip and signature. afaik no major US bank issue chip and pin yet.
    - 12y ago

KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago

I have to admit, I'm an apple hater but... this actually changes everything. Maybe time to buy the new iphone.

JimmaDaRustla 12y ago

From what I gather, it's a tokenized mobile payment system using NFC. The cool part would be the "dynamic security code" - essentially a 2 factor authentication. Most likely performs a card not present transaction on a back-end system, not sure how they wouldn't store the card number though. I imagine each merchant will have to get setup to acquire finds from this payment method. I'm fine with this - I believe 2 factor authentication and tokenization is the way to go with payments, but I'm hoping for some innovation on the POS end so that the payment networks have a standardization. Edit: I'm the opposite of an Apple fan, but network based payment tokenization with 2 factor authentication is something I've been preaching for a while now!!

itry 12y ago

So we want to make payments via our phones. My first thought would be to create a protocol for this. Instead we get ApplePay and GoogleWallet and whatnot. If the internet was invented today, we would have AppleMail instead of email and GoogleTrans instead of http.

tdicola 12y ago
The cynic in me winces when thinking of the mess all the banks and interested companies would make trying to get together and build a payment standard. Just look at the terrible mess of stuff like OFX.
- dclusin 12y ago
  FIX
  - sirn 12y ago
    Ah, a standard protocol where nobody implements the standard in the same way. As someone who has been working with FIX for few months, I could totally feel the pain.
    - dclusin 12y ago
      Don't forget defining your own custom tag for things that already exist in the set of standard tags.
- itry 12y ago
  Bitcoin might be a way around this. Also it might not be necessary for the involved parties to get together. They could release different protocols. And then the lesser used will be forgotten (like gopher is forgotten today) and the more frequent used will survive (like http has survived). Update: Why the downvotes?
  - shitlord 12y ago
    Most people either haven't heard of Bitcoin or regard Bitcoins as "internet fun bux". It's not happening (at least, not in 2014).

hrktb 12y ago

Japan has a flourishing NFC payment ecosystem, and it's strange it's completely left out on this announcement. Would they have given early access and bundled the Suica app for instance, they could have boasted millions of users from the get go. I wonder if the upcoming API is even compatible with the Felica standard, but that would be a weird thing to do.

sosborn 12y ago
Japan's NFC payment ecosystem is owned by Sony and DoCoMo. I highly doubt that Apple wanted to subject themselves to the license terms and/or the lack of technical control. That system is also widely deployed but in my experience (9 years of living there, no evidence other than anecdotal) not widely used.
- hrktb 12y ago
  Docomo is pretty willing to open up their technology to expand the ecosystem (that's what they did with Softbank and au, and JR also has a part in it), because they know it would die if they kept it for themselves. And that's openly one of the role of BitWallet, the joint venture they made for the solution. Actually I really hoped they could do something with that outside of Japan. I think regarding to NFC, it really depends on where you live. I was commuting on a JR line, and having Mobile Suica combine with Edy was such a boon that I could forget my wallet I wouldn't care. Just having your phone means you can ride the train, buy anything at the convince store, pay the restaurant (you may have less choice, but there's a lot of them accepting Edy or another service), buy music or electronics, and buy drinks from vending machines. It's almost surreal how much you can do. I later moved to the Keikyuu line and it was still great, but less magical. In terms of technical control, Apple already choose "standard NFC" (at least that's the quote I have on the liveblog), and I would guess they are bound by Visa and Amex for the implementation. A priori Felica is part of the NFC standard, IF it supports the encrypted protocol it should be OK to have everything as third party apps.
  - sdrothrock 12y ago
    > having Mobile Suica combine with Edy Not to mention the Suica + Pasmo combination a year or so ago that meant you didn't have to carry around two cards anymore. It was pretty amazing. It's at a point now where I'm really reluctant to buy phones that don't have mobile Suica/osaifu keitai support.

ycombinatoracc 12y ago

From a company that keeps your pictures secure comes secure credit card wallet, you couldn't make it up :rollseyes:

Quasimoto3000 12y ago
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there no connection between Apple and the leaks?
- swang 12y ago
  You are wrong. Apple says there was no "security breach" except their lack of security for the FindMyIphone website caused the breach. Mainly they exploited the fact that the FindMyIphone website did not throttle the number of login attempts. So you can do it as many times as possible. Apple deflected this by "denying" that any usernames or passwords were leaked, but in reality it is their fault that the accounts were compromised.
  - djrogers 12y ago
    Except the FMI flaw is only tenuously linked to the breach - with more evidence pointing away from it (i.e. timeline of how long the photos have been offered for sale, disclosures by other photo-hackers, etc) than toward it. There was early speculation that the flaw was at fault, but no confirmation from anyone. Go ahead though - blame that bug, because Apple.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  I think you are wrong. Unlimited incorrect log-in attempts and security credentials in plain text are a connection to Apple.
ycombinatoracc 12y ago
Oh look it Apple fanaticism is alive and well, one gets down-voted for pointing out that Apple can not be trusted with security in light of recent events

es09 12y ago

Anyone else seeing a 'Phishing attack ahead'? Chrome is complaining that Google Safe browsing detected an ongoing phishing attack.

mwenge 12y ago
Yup, me too!
papaf 12y ago
Firefox is saying the same thing for me. In fact, I thought that was the point of the link (to show apple.com is marked as a phishing attempt).
geuis 12y ago
https://www.dropbox.com/s/69iobxqcu6ie2v0/Screenshot%202014-09-09%2013.35.32.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/69iobxqcu6ie2v0/Screenshot%202014-...
masklinn 12y ago
Might be because of their redirection shenanigans, starting yesterday apple.com was a 301 (permanent redirect) to apple.com/live, might sudden changes back and fro be interpreted as phishing attacks?
deweller 12y ago
And just like that, now it is magically fixed.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

mladenkovacevic 12y ago

I've been "tapping to pay" with my credit cards here in Canada for the better part of the last 2 years. Does this use the same technology?

tcheard 12y ago
Yes I believe it is. Credit cards use the EMV protocol over the ISO14443 transmission protocol. I believe this is doing the same.
arecurrence 12y ago
Yes

pinedapple 12y ago

What is Apple's Cut going to be to use Apple Pay ? 1. Say, I have an app that will Apple Pay. So in addition to 30% cut made by Apple for my app will using Apple Pay cost more ? 2. I understand this will require NFC terminal to recognize the payment through Apple Pay but that's in physical store. If I already have some payment method setup for my app why should I choose to use Apple Pay ? or I guess my question is Apple already stores credit cards. While purchasing apps you can already do with one click. How Apple Pay is different ?

arstudio 12y ago
Apple Pay is intended for purchasing items in Stores, not apps. Apple Pay won't change anything about purchasing apps / in-app purchases. Apple Pay won't take a 30% cut of every transaction.
- traek 12y ago
  That's inaccurate, Apple Pay also has an in-app payment component. From their website: "Apple Pay lets you use iPhone 6 to pay in stores and within apps in an easy, secure, and private way."
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
archagon 12y ago
Given that they don't even know how much you're spending (as per the keynote), I doubt they're doing a surcharge.
- archagon 12y ago
  I stand corrected, Bloomberg says a fee will be collected. The agreement is between Apple and the banks. http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/10/apple-collecting-bank-fee-apple-pay-purchase/ http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/10/apple-collecting-bank-fe...

SunboX 12y ago

Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

SunboX 12y ago

Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

SunboX 12y ago

Would you like to pay with "Apple Pay", "Google Wallet", "Windows Payment", "BlackBerry Wallet" or "Web Payment"? OK, NFC or BLE?

RayLau135 12y ago
Contactless?
lifeformed 12y ago
No thanks, just cash.

gregoire 12y ago

So one should use Apple Pay when paying in apps, but the credit card stored in iCloud Keychain when paying on the web? I find it a bit confusing.

dcaunt 12y ago

Does anyone know why exactly payments in apps also require the iPhone 6? I thought that iPhone 5S also had a secure element for storing data (Touch ID).

arstudio 12y ago
The iPhone 6 / 6 Plus include an NFC transducer, whereas the old hardware does not include the ability to operate at this wavelength (13.56 MHz)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

mnglkhn2 12y ago

ApplePay is only on iPhone 6. This means that the availability rate for this technology will get into (tens of) millions in a couple of years, based on the update cycle with the phone carriers. Realistically we're talking 2-4 yrs. Plenty of time for providers to get acquainted with the technology and to integrate it into their retail systems. For developers it would be interesting to see how the API looks like and if it will be available at all in any shape or form (which I doubt actually).

jfb 12y ago
Also on the watch.
- RayLau135 12y ago
  iPhone 5 and 5s will be pair-able with Apple Watch, so I would assume they will have access to Apple Pay too
  - AaronIG 12y ago
    According to the Apple Pay site, that'll be the case for in-store purchases.
madeofpalk 12y ago
Apply Pay uses the same tech as existing contactless payments, like PayWave or PayPass, so the availability is already pretty high.
aeontech 12y ago
> For developers it would be interesting to see how the API looks like and if it will be available at all in any shape or form (which I doubt actually). Well it's already available through Stripe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8292026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8292026 - so I'm pretty sure there's good news ahead :) more info: https://developer.apple.com/apple-pay/ https://developer.apple.com/apple-pay/
djrogers 12y ago

LunaSea 12y ago

No-contact payment is exactly the kind of secure piece of engineering we needed. Especially after the iCloud debacle. /s

joshdick 12y ago
Actually, this has been working great in other first-world countries for years. The U.S. is one of the last places to get this.
andyhmltn 12y ago
Apple doesn't store the card details on their servers. So that's irrelevant.
- LunaSea 12y ago
  If someone steels your iPhone it's not.
  - andyhmltn 12y ago
    Well, they would have to steal your thumb as well. That's the whole point: It's encrypted using TouchID

outside1234 12y ago

Shame on us if we let one company control this.

userbinator 12y ago

I bet Apple would've named it iPay if it weren't for the fact that iPay has already been taken by a ton of other payment-processing-related things.

robmcm 12y ago
Same with iTV (ITV in the UK) and iPhone back in the day etc. I think we are seeing a move to Apple <Product Name>, partly because of this and partly because the Apple brand is so strong.

cdnsteve 12y ago

Shared my thoughts in another HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8294599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8294599

Sriraman 12y ago

Will it work in India ?

ksec 12y ago

Slightly Off Topic, Does anyone know if there are any plans to speed up the NFC process? The current one being used by MasterCard and Visa are all very slow. It takes like 3 seconds, compared to Sony's Felica which happens under 0.3 seconds.