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Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

59 points by f_salmon 13y ago

o0-0o 13y ago
This is such a great development, and I fully support it. The more decentralization we can make, the more freedom we'll have. As long as they are standards based, not pay-to-play, and, open to everyone.
- thisiswrong 13y ago
  Really? Don't you see the Trojan horse here? I tend to feel that this is a European version of FISA 'improvement' act. Merkel and Holland are politicians of a special kind. Politicians & their intelligence thugs caught in bed conspiring with foreign agencies/corporations against the people they represent. France quietly pushing through military legislation authorizing spying on its citizens [1]. We should not allow governments to have any more control over the internet. Look how much damage has already been done. Instead we need to build decentralized systems [2] and mesh networks [3] to route around censorship and government/corporate control. [1] http://www.examiner.com/article/france-overtakes-nsa-spying-on-own-citizens http://www.examiner.com/article/france-overtakes-nsa-spying-... [2] http://torrentfreak.com/how-the-pirate-bay-plans-to-beat-censorship-for-good-140105/ http://torrentfreak.com/how-the-pirate-bay-plans-to-beat-cen... [3] http://openlibernet.org/ http://openlibernet.org/
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SEJeff 13y ago
What so many people fail to realize is that the NSA will try and likely succeed at penetrating these networks as well. The real difference is that they don't need FISA courts to authorize foreign intelligence operations, only domestic ones.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  A more self-sufficient European network, especially one that excludes Great-Britain (sorry guys...), would raise the effort required to do surveillance. The NSA doesn't have a limited budget. It already has more data than it can use.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
    >would raise the effort required to do surveillance. The UK isn't the only country that co-operates with the US authorities on this, sadly.
    - jkrems 13y ago
      But it's relatively unique in how close it is to the US authorities, since it's part of five eyes.
  - lotsofmangos 13y ago
    I don't think any EU network is likely to exclude the UK, given BT's ownership of so many key telecoms patents and the fact that they have the contract to provide external connectivity for the commission, Parliament and Council, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors, the European Economic and Social Committee, the Committee of the Regions, the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions, the European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products, the Translation Centre for the Bodies of the European Union, the European Food Safety Authority, the European Maritime Safety Agency, the European Aviation Safety Agency and the European Agency for Reconstruction.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      It doesn't need to exclude UK membership. It needs to allow all traffic between points elsewhere in Europe to bypass UK networks, and ideally to allow all traffic from other places in Europe to elsewhere to bypass the UK. And contracts are not forever.
      - SEJeff 13y ago
junto 13y ago
While I welcome the initative, I think this a case of sky hooks and tartan paint. I also find it highly amusing that based on her comments she suggests that the UK is considered to be outside Europe.
- The_Double 13y ago
  Based on the UK's actions they consider themself the same. EG. Hacking Belgacom to to snoop on the EU.
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    It's helpful to distinguish between the country, its general population, and the actions of certain parts of its government in these kinds of discussions. The average citizen in the UK no more knew about, supported or condoned a lot of the recently disclosed intelligence-related activities than the average US citizen knew about, supported or condoned the recently disclosed behaviour of the NSA. If anything, I suspect there is a lot more latent resentment of these government behaviours in the UK, because we don't as a rule exhibit the same kind of patriotic fervour that significant parts of the US population do when it comes to military/intelligence matters.
- vidarh 13y ago
  UK media very often use Europe this way as well. It is as least as common to talk about the UK vs Europe as it is to talk about Europe and including the UK in that. (So also be wary about that when interpreting comments - if they're paraphrased in UK media, this can easily creep in)
starxidas 13y ago
Don't give your data to US. Give it to Germany!!
fidotron 13y ago
The substance is more interesting than the headline: "Above all, we'll talk about European providers that offer security for our citizens, so that one shouldn't have to send emails and other information across the Atlantic" i.e. government support of alternatives to the US owned networked services that enable the data leakages, not low level infrastructure improvements. Whether or not such a thing is likely to work, I'd be dubious, but if they show even the slightest hint of going through with it the US will go crazy. Likely to be a lot of happy devs in Berlin.
- _delirium 13y ago
  That makes a bit more sense. At the level of infrastructure there already is a "European network", with pretty good interconnects. It's very uncommon for intra-European packets to go via the US, at least in continental Europe. There are some routes where it can happen due to peculiarities of peering agreements, but I've seen it quite rarely. On the other hand, if lots of Europeans are hosting their email in the U.S., then Europe having its own network doesn't do much good: ssh sessions from Milan to Copenhagen go via Austria and Germany, but emails from Milan to Copenhagen take a North-American detour.
  - bbosh 13y ago
    On the other hand, any traffic that needs to cross the Atlantic, via the Apollo cables, takes a detour via GCHQ Bude, which is funded by the NSA (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/USA-spent-millions-Bude-spy-station-says-Snowden/story-19609311-detail/story.html#axzz2tQqt9qmc http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/USA-spent-millions-Bude-spy-...). I suspect a lot of non-US traffic goes via London, too.
    - fidotron 13y ago
      Used to be a much greater proportion than it is today, largely thanks to the growth of places like the Amsterdam Internet Exchange. At one point there was a building on the Isle of Dogs (former island in the Thames) through which an absolutely terrifying proportion of the network traffic for western Europe travelled.
higherpurpose 13y ago
I hope it's more like "EU" than Europe, because countries like UK seem more than happy to sell the rest of us out. In the end the solution will be to build trustless P2P networks, everywhere, but the only way US and US companies will agree to allowing something like that will be if EU pushes for localized EU networks and stuff like this to make their life too hard otherwise.
- rm445 13y ago
  Er, the UK has been part of the European Union since 1973.
  - mariuolo 13y ago
    Cameron promised a referendum. I hope they get out for good this time.
    - lotsofmangos 13y ago
      Heh, there is absolutely no way that the Conservatives will let the UK leave the EU. This is an empty promise to try and stop their grassroots voting UKIP. The thing it, while many of the people who vote Tory want the UK to leave Europe, the people who actually fund the Conservative party make a lot of money from being part of the EU. The disconnect between the voters and the funders of the Conservative Party has been a defining feature of theirs for decades. This is why mentioning Europe is so destructive for them, because they have to stay in Europe, but cannot publicly admit that.
      - Silhouette 13y ago
        Heh, there is absolutely no way that the Conservatives will let the UK leave the EU. This is an empty promise to try and stop their grassroots voting UKIP. There will be a certain irony if the Conservatives lose out at the next general election because UKIP divides their vote and something between a Labour landslide and a Labour-Lib Dem coalition happens... because of the AV voting reforms that the Conservatives heavily opposed a couple of years ago.
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kryptiskt 13y ago
European governments haven't earned our trust any more than the US government. The adversary may vary, but the network is the same hostile environment and should be treated with the same caution.
- jkrems 13y ago
  I would say that at least the German government has a better track record in consumer/privacy protection. Far from perfect obviously, but better.
  - kryptiskt 13y ago
    That is protection against companies collecting data. It says nothing about the reach of their secret services. Those two things shouldn't be confused. And even if Merkel would wish and be able to rein in Germany's spooks she has no such power over France where tapping everything is seen as perfectly normal.
  - a_bonobo 13y ago
    Germany is part of the Five Eyes/Nine Eyes/UKUSA network [1], which was established so that the respective intelligence communities can share data. There is at least one of the US' Echelon stations in Germany [2]. I would wager that Germany would intercept the majority of traffic in this "Europe network" and then give the stuff to the US. Nothing would change. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
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- bowlofpetunias 13y ago
  So you would also find it perfectly normal if in the pre-Internet era the US government would open each and ever letter and parcel send from outside the US. I'm old enough to remember regimes in which that was common practice back in the day. I know people who grew up in them. We did not refer the them as either friendly or free and democratic nations. But congrats on being a sovereign nation, and good luck with that. In, say, 20 years time you may find yourself on the wrong side of the modern electronic version of the iron curtain.
  - starxidas 13y ago
    It's called sarcasm
guelo 13y ago
China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. All defenses must be put up in an attempt to stop it. As a side benefit China has fostered a large homegrown internet industry which many other countries lack. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are more than acceptable. Europe is more than capable of doing the same and hopefully with less censorship.
- deleted 13y ago
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- thisiswrong 13y ago
  > China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. You're touching on something here. What you're saying is that Google = American government [1]. With the rise of open fascism in the US, the merging of strategic corporations (mostly the technology, entertainment, and banking monopolies) with government interests is become more and more obvious - and scary for that matter. [1] http://cryptome.org/2013/08/assange-google-nsa.htm http://cryptome.org/2013/08/assange-google-nsa.htm
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  China didn't kick out Google, Google left. Google is not even blocked like Twitter and Facebook are (though plus and youtube are blocked). The Chinese government is 100x more aggressive than the US government when it comes to monitoring internal Internet activities. As a side non-benefit of being protected from international services, China's homegrown internet industry is unable to innovate and compete outside of China, where their international competition has no such disadvantage. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are just acceptable local copies of successful international services. Europe is capable of becoming like China, but would be crazy to go down that route.
- waps 13y ago
  For the Chinese government this argument may hold some water. I do think that for the Chinese people this is very much a negative though. When choosing whether you want the American government to have some monitoring power over you or the Chinese government, the answer is beyond obvious [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labour
j_baker 13y ago
I seriously doubt that Merkel's intentions are pure on this. For starters, we know that Germany has given some degree of cooperation in NSA spying, including allowing the US to build an army base that will be used by the NSA[1]. Secondly, we know that the BND used the NSA's systems for its own intelligence purposes[2]. Something tells me this is as much (if not more) an attempt to put European users' data within reach of European spy agencies as it is about protecting European users' privacy. I suppose the upside is that it ensures that peoples' data is in the hands of their own governments rather than being in the hands of governments they have no control over. [1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-accuses-germany-of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-acc... [2]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellige...
- bbosh 13y ago
  Personally, I'd rather my information be in the hands of the United States rather than my own governments (the United Kingdom -- unfortunately it's with both!) Your own government can do more against your interests than a foreign government can.
- weinzierl 13y ago
  You comment made me curious how many US army bases there are on German ground. More than I expected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_inst... (Not saying they are used by the NSA.)
  - pstuart 13y ago
    But they're important to protect the US from Nazis! Do I have to go Godwin on you so you realize how vital this is?
    - waps 13y ago
      Initially, they were. Then they became important to protect Europe from the Soviets. I would argue that to some extent they're still fulfilling that function. But please make no mistake. The extreme right is still popular in Germany and generally in northwest Europe, in some places commanding ~35% of the votes. Far left (meaning having political positions not even American "communists" would support) commands another 10-15% of the vote, even in East Germany where, let's just say that a lot of the population has good reason to distrust them.
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Create 13y ago
We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world. This should not actually be a complicated inquiry. http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html http://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-thought-requires-free-media http://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-t... You heard a lot of stuff from governments around the world in the last two weeks, but not one statement that consisted of “I regret subjecting my population to these procedures.” The German Chancellor, though triumphantly reelected with not a cloud in her political sky, is in no position to say “I agreed with the Americans to allow 40 million telephone calls a day to be intercepted in Germany; I just want them to stop listening to my phone!” The President of the United States is considering the possibility of not listening to thirty-five mobile phones around the world. The other several hundred million people we listen to are stone out of luck. You understand what a charade this is, of course. The leaders of global societies do not conduct their classified business over their personal mobile phones. Our listening there is not gaining us important military intelligence. The President of the United States is publicly considering not listening to conversations that leaders of other countries have with their spouses, their siblings and their children. But the conversations nine hundred million other people are having with their spouses, their siblings, and their children remain fair game. Nobody is talking about that; you’re not supposed to think about it. Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999 http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999
strictfp 13y ago
Shitshitshitshitshit! I knew that this would be the knee-jerk reaction of politicians. If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. Now for the first time I'm really scared about the future of the internet. Let's get involved politically now and educate these people about the foundations of the internet, and try to keep it a neutral piece of infrastructure. Curse the NSA for wrecking net neutrality, and other agencies for waging war here. The internet was international and neutral from the start, don't bring your territorial thinking here!
- mpyne 13y ago
  > If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. No offense but this is exactly the option I'd be recommending to U.S. policymakers (i.e. having a "Balkanization Button") if it really comes to gutting the NSA. Yes, the thing that makes the Internet so good for us is the open borders, but it's also the thing that makes it so powerful for countries that don't have to abide by pesky little things like Western cultural morals. In no other realm does a potential adversary gain access to a military capability and the Western world opts to leave itself defenseless. And make no mistake, cyber is thought to be a military capability for the likes of Russia (just ask Estonia or Georgia), China, and North Korea. If pacifism is to be the answer in response to this threat, then that simply means that defense will have to come by different means, i.e. by "battening down the hatches" and sealing off foreigners from domestic networks. If we can seek out threats on networks then the second-best option is to try and keep our networks from being used against us. Similar logic will then apply in the E.U. and other nations. > The internet was international and neutral from the start, don't bring your territorial thinking here! It was hardly neutral from the start, the Internet developed from things like NSFNET and MILNET. Don't be silly. And either way, "we didn't start the fire"... the NSA didn't invent cyber hacking, as they could only have been hacking themselves at first. Go read "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Cliff Stoll if you want to see where the first wave of state-sponsored hacking started.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    We don't have to sever all the transoceanic cables to protect sensitive networks from foreign intrusion, we just have to stop plugging them into the Internet in the first place.
forgotAgain 13y ago
I wonder if when all of this NSA spying was starting out in the government offices in Washington D.C.; did anyone think about the law of unintended consequences? Trying to spy on everyone in the world is a massive project. Placing oneself into everyone's private lives goes beyond simple hubris. It's megalomania. I wonder if even now, those involved, have any idea of the nature of what they've done and what the magnitude of the consequences are shaping up to be.
lhm 13y ago
This looks rather clueless, I think. As others have mentioned, the problem isn't so much in the interconnects, but more with the services being used. But there isn't going to come a new Facebook or Google out of Berlin - or anywhere else for that matter. What would be helpful would be decentralized services that match the user experience of the existing ones. But that kind of innovation isn't what's going to be discussed here, I'm afraid. On the contrary, such eavesdropping-safe technology would be viewed very conspicuously by the non-tech savy politicians in Europe and other places.
- Silhouette 13y ago
  But there isn't going to come a new Facebook or Google out of Berlin That is, in part, because the kinds of privacy invasion those two organisations routinely conduct would probably have been challenged earlier and more aggressively if they had been within European jurisdiction, and particularly within Germany. This is a feature, not a bug.
facepalm 13y ago
Does that even make any sense? Would they force European users to not use GMail? Or force GMail to create a European branch? I don't think governments prescribing what services to use is a good idea...
kmfrk 13y ago
As a symbolic show of good faith, let's start by doing away with the cookie disclaimers.
franzpeterfolz 13y ago
Well, how does it look when Merkel is talking about the internet. Germany has a project called DE-Mail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Mail It's a kind of E-Mail service to improve Data-Protection and get legally binding electronic communication. So far so good. But how is this done, and what are the impacts. At first E-Mail got a price tag. Second, there is no End-To-End-Encryption. Third, you're legally bound if they say this mail arrived, no matter if you even noticed or read. 4th there are public companies involved, able to read high sensitive data sent by DE-Mail, because there is no End-to-End communication. This companies are also able, but not allowed, to send legally binding mails in your name. How could you prove, you didn't sent? This is the context, when German politicians talk about the internet. They have no clue.
joesmo 13y ago
What part of the idea that data does not have to pass through the united states does she not get? Apparently all of it.

59 points by f_salmon 13y ago

o0-0o 13y ago

This is such a great development, and I fully support it. The more decentralization we can make, the more freedom we'll have. As long as they are standards based, not pay-to-play, and, open to everyone.

thisiswrong 13y ago
Really? Don't you see the Trojan horse here? I tend to feel that this is a European version of FISA 'improvement' act. Merkel and Holland are politicians of a special kind. Politicians & their intelligence thugs caught in bed conspiring with foreign agencies/corporations against the people they represent. France quietly pushing through military legislation authorizing spying on its citizens [1]. We should not allow governments to have any more control over the internet. Look how much damage has already been done. Instead we need to build decentralized systems [2] and mesh networks [3] to route around censorship and government/corporate control. [1] http://www.examiner.com/article/france-overtakes-nsa-spying-on-own-citizens http://www.examiner.com/article/france-overtakes-nsa-spying-... [2] http://torrentfreak.com/how-the-pirate-bay-plans-to-beat-censorship-for-good-140105/ http://torrentfreak.com/how-the-pirate-bay-plans-to-beat-cen... [3] http://openlibernet.org/ http://openlibernet.org/

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SEJeff 13y ago

What so many people fail to realize is that the NSA will try and likely succeed at penetrating these networks as well. The real difference is that they don't need FISA courts to authorize foreign intelligence operations, only domestic ones.

bayesianhorse 13y ago
A more self-sufficient European network, especially one that excludes Great-Britain (sorry guys...), would raise the effort required to do surveillance. The NSA doesn't have a limited budget. It already has more data than it can use.
- TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
  >would raise the effort required to do surveillance. The UK isn't the only country that co-operates with the US authorities on this, sadly.
  - jkrems 13y ago
    But it's relatively unique in how close it is to the US authorities, since it's part of five eyes.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  I don't think any EU network is likely to exclude the UK, given BT's ownership of so many key telecoms patents and the fact that they have the contract to provide external connectivity for the commission, Parliament and Council, the Court of Justice, the Court of Auditors, the European Economic and Social Committee, the Committee of the Regions, the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions, the European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products, the Translation Centre for the Bodies of the European Union, the European Food Safety Authority, the European Maritime Safety Agency, the European Aviation Safety Agency and the European Agency for Reconstruction.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    It doesn't need to exclude UK membership. It needs to allow all traffic between points elsewhere in Europe to bypass UK networks, and ideally to allow all traffic from other places in Europe to elsewhere to bypass the UK. And contracts are not forever.
    - SEJeff 13y ago

junto 13y ago

While I welcome the initative, I think this a case of sky hooks and tartan paint. I also find it highly amusing that based on her comments she suggests that the UK is considered to be outside Europe.

The_Double 13y ago
Based on the UK's actions they consider themself the same. EG. Hacking Belgacom to to snoop on the EU.
- Silhouette 13y ago
  It's helpful to distinguish between the country, its general population, and the actions of certain parts of its government in these kinds of discussions. The average citizen in the UK no more knew about, supported or condoned a lot of the recently disclosed intelligence-related activities than the average US citizen knew about, supported or condoned the recently disclosed behaviour of the NSA. If anything, I suspect there is a lot more latent resentment of these government behaviours in the UK, because we don't as a rule exhibit the same kind of patriotic fervour that significant parts of the US population do when it comes to military/intelligence matters.
vidarh 13y ago
UK media very often use Europe this way as well. It is as least as common to talk about the UK vs Europe as it is to talk about Europe and including the UK in that. (So also be wary about that when interpreting comments - if they're paraphrased in UK media, this can easily creep in)

starxidas 13y ago

Don't give your data to US. Give it to Germany!!

fidotron 13y ago

The substance is more interesting than the headline: "Above all, we'll talk about European providers that offer security for our citizens, so that one shouldn't have to send emails and other information across the Atlantic" i.e. government support of alternatives to the US owned networked services that enable the data leakages, not low level infrastructure improvements. Whether or not such a thing is likely to work, I'd be dubious, but if they show even the slightest hint of going through with it the US will go crazy. Likely to be a lot of happy devs in Berlin.

_delirium 13y ago
That makes a bit more sense. At the level of infrastructure there already is a "European network", with pretty good interconnects. It's very uncommon for intra-European packets to go via the US, at least in continental Europe. There are some routes where it can happen due to peculiarities of peering agreements, but I've seen it quite rarely. On the other hand, if lots of Europeans are hosting their email in the U.S., then Europe having its own network doesn't do much good: ssh sessions from Milan to Copenhagen go via Austria and Germany, but emails from Milan to Copenhagen take a North-American detour.
- bbosh 13y ago
  On the other hand, any traffic that needs to cross the Atlantic, via the Apollo cables, takes a detour via GCHQ Bude, which is funded by the NSA (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/USA-spent-millions-Bude-spy-station-says-Snowden/story-19609311-detail/story.html#axzz2tQqt9qmc http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/USA-spent-millions-Bude-spy-...). I suspect a lot of non-US traffic goes via London, too.
  - fidotron 13y ago
    Used to be a much greater proportion than it is today, largely thanks to the growth of places like the Amsterdam Internet Exchange. At one point there was a building on the Isle of Dogs (former island in the Thames) through which an absolutely terrifying proportion of the network traffic for western Europe travelled.

higherpurpose 13y ago

I hope it's more like "EU" than Europe, because countries like UK seem more than happy to sell the rest of us out. In the end the solution will be to build trustless P2P networks, everywhere, but the only way US and US companies will agree to allowing something like that will be if EU pushes for localized EU networks and stuff like this to make their life too hard otherwise.

rm445 13y ago
Er, the UK has been part of the European Union since 1973.
- mariuolo 13y ago
  Cameron promised a referendum. I hope they get out for good this time.
  - lotsofmangos 13y ago
    Heh, there is absolutely no way that the Conservatives will let the UK leave the EU. This is an empty promise to try and stop their grassroots voting UKIP. The thing it, while many of the people who vote Tory want the UK to leave Europe, the people who actually fund the Conservative party make a lot of money from being part of the EU. The disconnect between the voters and the funders of the Conservative Party has been a defining feature of theirs for decades. This is why mentioning Europe is so destructive for them, because they have to stay in Europe, but cannot publicly admit that.
    - Silhouette 13y ago
      Heh, there is absolutely no way that the Conservatives will let the UK leave the EU. This is an empty promise to try and stop their grassroots voting UKIP. There will be a certain irony if the Conservatives lose out at the next general election because UKIP divides their vote and something between a Labour landslide and a Labour-Lib Dem coalition happens... because of the AV voting reforms that the Conservatives heavily opposed a couple of years ago.

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kryptiskt 13y ago

European governments haven't earned our trust any more than the US government. The adversary may vary, but the network is the same hostile environment and should be treated with the same caution.

jkrems 13y ago
I would say that at least the German government has a better track record in consumer/privacy protection. Far from perfect obviously, but better.
- kryptiskt 13y ago
  That is protection against companies collecting data. It says nothing about the reach of their secret services. Those two things shouldn't be confused. And even if Merkel would wish and be able to rein in Germany's spooks she has no such power over France where tapping everything is seen as perfectly normal.
- a_bonobo 13y ago
  Germany is part of the Five Eyes/Nine Eyes/UKUSA network [1], which was established so that the respective intelligence communities can share data. There is at least one of the US' Echelon stations in Germany [2]. I would wager that Germany would intercept the majority of traffic in this "Europe network" and then give the stuff to the US. Nothing would change. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

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bowlofpetunias 13y ago
So you would also find it perfectly normal if in the pre-Internet era the US government would open each and ever letter and parcel send from outside the US. I'm old enough to remember regimes in which that was common practice back in the day. I know people who grew up in them. We did not refer the them as either friendly or free and democratic nations. But congrats on being a sovereign nation, and good luck with that. In, say, 20 years time you may find yourself on the wrong side of the modern electronic version of the iron curtain.
- starxidas 13y ago
  It's called sarcasm

guelo 13y ago

China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. All defenses must be put up in an attempt to stop it. As a side benefit China has fostered a large homegrown internet industry which many other countries lack. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are more than acceptable. Europe is more than capable of doing the same and hopefully with less censorship.

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thisiswrong 13y ago
> China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. You're touching on something here. What you're saying is that Google = American government [1]. With the rise of open fascism in the US, the merging of strategic corporations (mostly the technology, entertainment, and banking monopolies) with government interests is become more and more obvious - and scary for that matter. [1] http://cryptome.org/2013/08/assange-google-nsa.htm http://cryptome.org/2013/08/assange-google-nsa.htm
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
China didn't kick out Google, Google left. Google is not even blocked like Twitter and Facebook are (though plus and youtube are blocked). The Chinese government is 100x more aggressive than the US government when it comes to monitoring internal Internet activities. As a side non-benefit of being protected from international services, China's homegrown internet industry is unable to innovate and compete outside of China, where their international competition has no such disadvantage. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are just acceptable local copies of successful international services. Europe is capable of becoming like China, but would be crazy to go down that route.
waps 13y ago
For the Chinese government this argument may hold some water. I do think that for the Chinese people this is very much a negative though. When choosing whether you want the American government to have some monitoring power over you or the Chinese government, the answer is beyond obvious [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labour

j_baker 13y ago

I seriously doubt that Merkel's intentions are pure on this. For starters, we know that Germany has given some degree of cooperation in NSA spying, including allowing the US to build an army base that will be used by the NSA[1]. Secondly, we know that the BND used the NSA's systems for its own intelligence purposes[2]. Something tells me this is as much (if not more) an attempt to put European users' data within reach of European spy agencies as it is about protecting European users' privacy. I suppose the upside is that it ensures that peoples' data is in the hands of their own governments rather than being in the hands of governments they have no control over. [1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-accuses-germany-of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-acc... [2]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intellige...

bbosh 13y ago
Personally, I'd rather my information be in the hands of the United States rather than my own governments (the United Kingdom -- unfortunately it's with both!) Your own government can do more against your interests than a foreign government can.
weinzierl 13y ago
You comment made me curious how many US army bases there are on German ground. More than I expected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_installations_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_inst... (Not saying they are used by the NSA.)
- pstuart 13y ago
  But they're important to protect the US from Nazis! Do I have to go Godwin on you so you realize how vital this is?
  - waps 13y ago
    Initially, they were. Then they became important to protect Europe from the Soviets. I would argue that to some extent they're still fulfilling that function. But please make no mistake. The extreme right is still popular in Germany and generally in northwest Europe, in some places commanding ~35% of the votes. Far left (meaning having political positions not even American "communists" would support) commands another 10-15% of the vote, even in East Germany where, let's just say that a lot of the population has good reason to distrust them.

deleted 13y ago

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Create 13y ago

We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world. This should not actually be a complicated inquiry. http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html http://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-thought-requires-free-media http://benjamin.sonntag.fr/Moglen-at-Re-Publica-Freedom-of-t... You heard a lot of stuff from governments around the world in the last two weeks, but not one statement that consisted of “I regret subjecting my population to these procedures.” The German Chancellor, though triumphantly reelected with not a cloud in her political sky, is in no position to say “I agreed with the Americans to allow 40 million telephone calls a day to be intercepted in Germany; I just want them to stop listening to my phone!” The President of the United States is considering the possibility of not listening to thirty-five mobile phones around the world. The other several hundred million people we listen to are stone out of luck. You understand what a charade this is, of course. The leaders of global societies do not conduct their classified business over their personal mobile phones. Our listening there is not gaining us important military intelligence. The President of the United States is publicly considering not listening to conversations that leaders of other countries have with their spouses, their siblings and their children. But the conversations nine hundred million other people are having with their spouses, their siblings, and their children remain fair game. Nobody is talking about that; you’re not supposed to think about it. Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999 http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999

strictfp 13y ago

Shitshitshitshitshit! I knew that this would be the knee-jerk reaction of politicians. If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. Now for the first time I'm really scared about the future of the internet. Let's get involved politically now and educate these people about the foundations of the internet, and try to keep it a neutral piece of infrastructure. Curse the NSA for wrecking net neutrality, and other agencies for waging war here. The internet was international and neutral from the start, don't bring your territorial thinking here!

mpyne 13y ago
> If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. No offense but this is exactly the option I'd be recommending to U.S. policymakers (i.e. having a "Balkanization Button") if it really comes to gutting the NSA. Yes, the thing that makes the Internet so good for us is the open borders, but it's also the thing that makes it so powerful for countries that don't have to abide by pesky little things like Western cultural morals. In no other realm does a potential adversary gain access to a military capability and the Western world opts to leave itself defenseless. And make no mistake, cyber is thought to be a military capability for the likes of Russia (just ask Estonia or Georgia), China, and North Korea. If pacifism is to be the answer in response to this threat, then that simply means that defense will have to come by different means, i.e. by "battening down the hatches" and sealing off foreigners from domestic networks. If we can seek out threats on networks then the second-best option is to try and keep our networks from being used against us. Similar logic will then apply in the E.U. and other nations. > The internet was international and neutral from the start, don't bring your territorial thinking here! It was hardly neutral from the start, the Internet developed from things like NSFNET and MILNET. Don't be silly. And either way, "we didn't start the fire"... the NSA didn't invent cyber hacking, as they could only have been hacking themselves at first. Go read "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Cliff Stoll if you want to see where the first wave of state-sponsored hacking started.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  We don't have to sever all the transoceanic cables to protect sensitive networks from foreign intrusion, we just have to stop plugging them into the Internet in the first place.

forgotAgain 13y ago

I wonder if when all of this NSA spying was starting out in the government offices in Washington D.C.; did anyone think about the law of unintended consequences? Trying to spy on everyone in the world is a massive project. Placing oneself into everyone's private lives goes beyond simple hubris. It's megalomania. I wonder if even now, those involved, have any idea of the nature of what they've done and what the magnitude of the consequences are shaping up to be.

lhm 13y ago

This looks rather clueless, I think. As others have mentioned, the problem isn't so much in the interconnects, but more with the services being used. But there isn't going to come a new Facebook or Google out of Berlin - or anywhere else for that matter. What would be helpful would be decentralized services that match the user experience of the existing ones. But that kind of innovation isn't what's going to be discussed here, I'm afraid. On the contrary, such eavesdropping-safe technology would be viewed very conspicuously by the non-tech savy politicians in Europe and other places.

Silhouette 13y ago
But there isn't going to come a new Facebook or Google out of Berlin That is, in part, because the kinds of privacy invasion those two organisations routinely conduct would probably have been challenged earlier and more aggressively if they had been within European jurisdiction, and particularly within Germany. This is a feature, not a bug.

facepalm 13y ago

Does that even make any sense? Would they force European users to not use GMail? Or force GMail to create a European branch? I don't think governments prescribing what services to use is a good idea...

kmfrk 13y ago

As a symbolic show of good faith, let's start by doing away with the cookie disclaimers.

franzpeterfolz 13y ago

Well, how does it look when Merkel is talking about the internet. Germany has a project called DE-Mail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Mail It's a kind of E-Mail service to improve Data-Protection and get legally binding electronic communication. So far so good. But how is this done, and what are the impacts. At first E-Mail got a price tag. Second, there is no End-To-End-Encryption. Third, you're legally bound if they say this mail arrived, no matter if you even noticed or read. 4th there are public companies involved, able to read high sensitive data sent by DE-Mail, because there is no End-to-End communication. This companies are also able, but not allowed, to send legally binding mails in your name. How could you prove, you didn't sent? This is the context, when German politicians talk about the internet. They have no clue.

joesmo 13y ago

What part of the idea that data does not have to pass through the united states does she not get? Apparently all of it.