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Installing VLC Media Player voids your speaker warranty

490 points by mikecane 13y ago

robinhoodexe 13y ago
What the...?
guard-of-terra 13y ago
This is stupid. They are making speakers that can't withstand some cases of within-the-bounds PCM signal. If we had a normal society anywhere on earth they would be sued to the ground there.
- Ma8ee 13y ago
  Speakers are built to be able to withstand short peaks with high power to reflect the dynamic in the music or your movie. This is what is abused to be able to play loud sounds continuously. You could take the possibility to do that away, but then you would of course also remove some of the dynamics out of the music. But of course, the people that burn their speakers this way don't care about dynamics or evidently about sound quality if they press their computer speakers like this. Can't sound not even a little good.
  - philliphaydon 13y ago
    Not sure if you've ever owned a Dell laptop, but I'll never buy one again. On a couple of occasions I have tried to play DVD's on them and cannot hear people talking with the volume up. Put headphones on and its too loud. Dell speakers are junk.
    - aestra 13y ago
      Um in my experience all laptop speakers of all brands are like that.
      - TillE 13y ago
        I've watched a number of films on a Macbook Air without that particular problem. They are still terrible speakers, though. I almost laughed when showing a friend Star Wars for the first time; it doesn't even come close to doing the soundtrack justice.
      - skriticos2 13y ago
        No. I have a System76 Ubuntu laptop and the speaker quality is excellent. Plays music nicely and sound is clear and crisp. How many quality laptops do you have experience with?
        aestra 13y ago
        Never had a System76, but I've owned a few Asus and a Toshiba and when I lived with 5 other people in college, the topic came up and we all agreed on the quality of our respective laptop speakers. Of course I was in college quite a while ago.
      - philliphaydon 13y ago
        I run Windows 8.1 on my MBP/r and don't have that issue at all. External DVD Drive, play one of my DVDs on the Mac, audio is perfectly fine. Play the same DVD on my Asus UX31, cannot hear the people talking, use VLC player to up the audio to 125% and its fine.
    - EpicEng 13y ago
      I've owned two. Both "died" shortly (very shortly) after the warranty expired. On both, the connector from the mobo to the power input cracked right off (I never yanked, dropped, or otherwise abused them. Just normal use.) I could fix it, but it was a pain, and the stress points didn't change, so it just happened again. On the second, the screen began to go at 14 months. I would never by consumer electronics from Dell again.
  - iSnow 13y ago
    If it was a fundamental problem like you indicate, then every manufacturer would be hit by it, from Apple to Lenovo. It rather seems a problem of Dell using shoddy components and/or not issuing a driver that protects the speaker from the amp.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    "Speakers are built to be able to withstand short peaks with high power" And they should be built to be able to withstand any valid signal.
  - KaiserPro 13y ago
    Thats what limiters are for. The whole point of hard clipping is that +256 or -256 (or the 16bit equivalent) is below the point at which your speakers, amps, cabling or anything else starts to melt. Speakers/amps should have DC protection builtin.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > Thats what limiters are for. Limiters cannot either distinguish or protect against the technical difference between a sine wave and a square wave: http://i.imgur.com/oE5NFZ9.png http://i.imgur.com/oE5NFZ9.png The red trace is a normal audio signal that doesn't exceed the dynamic range of the amplifier. The green trace is an example of the kind of signal one gets by turning the volume up way above normal. In a hypothetical speaker of one ohm and a peak voltage of one volt, the red trace has a time-averaged power level of 1/2 watt. The green trace has a power level of one watt -- twice as high, and possibly too high for the speakers to tolerate. > Speakers/amps should have DC protection builtin. This example should show that this isn't possible without taking the temperature of the speaker's activation coil -- and even that might not work.
      - tmzt 13y ago
        Couldn't he codec chip do it by averaging the amplitude? I'm not sure if they are more than a DAY though or whether they have a microcontroller and firmware.
        lutusp 13y ago
        > Couldn't he codec chip do it by averaging the amplitude? Yes in principle, but it would be rather complicated -- it would need to have its own microprocessor just to save the speaker. D/A ICs with included amplifiers are already pretty complex. Also, if a user was listening to music that had an occasional high level, the special limiter might kick in and spoil the sound of the audio for a transient that wouldn't actually jeopardize the speakers.
      - caf 13y ago
        An analogue bandpass filter could be used. Passing a square wave through such a filter will remove much of the power present at inaudible frequencies. Unfortunately, they also require bulky inductors/capacitors.
jokoon 13y ago
If DELL is right that would mean even if I craft a sound file with a very high amplitude, play it with another software, it should not damage the speakers. I would have thought windows could limitate the amplitude of the sound sent to the hardware, maybe VLC is somehow bypassing this. Seems like an odd issue though.
Jare 13y ago
That kind of amplitude abuse is the equivalent of pounding very hard on the keyboard for long periods of time - it will break sooner than it would normally have, and can rightfully be considered abuse. However, voiding the warranty simply because of VLC installed is, again, the equivalent of voiding the keyboard warranty simply because you are a bodybuilder. Ok enough metaphors.
- tunap 13y ago
  "Ok enough metaphors." Not so fast, I see no car metaphor yet. And there is no comparison of Dell's practices to those of Hitler or the Nazis, either. We are far from 'enough' metaphors, my friend.
- shawnz 13y ago
  If I am understanding this correctly, a specially crafted mp3 file, played in Windows Media Player or similar, could cause the same symptoms that Dell is indicating VLC could create. Surely that would be considered a totally normal operating condition that the speakers should be tolerant against. It may be heavy use, but does that mean it is abuse?
  - jbk 13y ago
    Yes, exactly. Use Audacity to increase the volume and play with WMP to get the same result.
  - dpe82 13y ago
    Likely not an mp3 because most of the super high frequencies that result from digital clipping wouldn't be encoded in an mp3. Most encoders do a low pass filter as their first step (getting rid of most of the problem) and then smooth out the rest of the waveform when compressing it. It's possible, however, to create raw PCM that will destroy a lot of consumer equipment if played long and loud enough. VLC basically gives consumers a way to do that and labels it a feature.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  If the card could not overdrive the speakers (i.e., if the system were designed properly) it could not be a problem.
pera 13y ago
Next logic step: playing DUBSTEP voids your speaker warranty
zimbatm 13y ago
Not speaking of Dell's behavior but VLC should maybe add a warning to the settings when the user goes over 100% if it damages the speakers.
- naner 13y ago
  The VLC creators claim the player cannot be used to damage speakers. That and hard clipping is obvious and sounds awful, so it should be apparent you're doing something wrong.
- jbk 13y ago
  VLC cannot damage anything more than any other player using the Windows APIs.
  - NeliX4 13y ago
    Yes it does. It makes too simple for non-techical user to make the signal distorted. Distorted signal can damage a speaker, even in low volume. It's irrelevat to blame "the others do it too". I've seen it happen many times in meetings. 1. Presenter shows a video and volume is low. 2. Presenter adds volume from VLC to 200% and sound signal gets distorted. 3. Sound is awful, no-one can hear anything and people are doing nothing to fix it, because they think that speakers are broken. Please VLC, fix your player so that it has good sounding limiter on the "output". It's not difficult.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- chc 13y ago
  Whether it can damage the speakers depends on whether your sound system is defective. Dell deliberately ships defective speakers and doesn't cover the defects in its warranty. But it's not like the speakers will notify VLC of this fact, though.
Aardwolf 13y ago
Shouldn't instead Dell make the speakers not be able to get physically damanged by software?
- maxerickson 13y ago
  It would probably either cost more or the speakers would have a lower peak volume. I don't think it is a wild compromise to make some assumptions about the sounds people will play through the speakers (and it's not like a spec relating the max energy/time is going to help most shoppers).
  - Aardwolf 13y ago
    Well, it's also a wild compromise to say the warranty is void by installing popular software. If they would instead say, the warranty is void if you go above such and so threshold for such and so long (no matter with what software), that would make sense, but this, just seems a cheap way of making the warranty unexistent. Anyway, a moderator from Dell replied that you can contact him if Dell refuses to give support just by seeing VLC installed, so maybe it's better than it seems.
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      Yeah, it's nonsense that they are straight up blaming VLC. (But I don't think it is obviously unreasonable to sell a cheap laptop with cheap speakers, configured to be able to make louder peaks)
  - KaiserPro 13y ago
    Thats like saying that you can't have 100% for more than 2 seconds because it would cause instability. Speakers shouldn't melt because of software (unless there is dodgy firmware.)
  - TylerE 13y ago
    > (and it's not like a spec relating the max energy/time is going to help most shoppers Actually, speakers are speced in terms of RMS wattage...which is exactly that.
jijji 13y ago
sounds like buggy speaker hardware or firmware. How about don't use Dell laptops to play audio?
zephjc 13y ago
What kind of person uses crappy laptop speakers for media consumption?
- collyw 13y ago
  far too many people do, and many annoyingly listen to music through the crappy speakers on their phone, usually in public.
  - zephjc 13y ago
    Then if they blow out their crappy speakers, maybe that will leave them with no recourse but to plug their headphones in
g123g 13y ago
Even HP has the same policy which I found to my dismay three years back.
donatj 13y ago
VLC is incapable of increasing the actual power past 100%, all that is being done is the waveform is being modified to be louder within the allowed constraints. If this wrecks the speaker, any other non-VLCed sound could just as easily, and the speakers are therefore underpowered for the laptops internal amplifier. Class action sounds in order.
- GeneralMayhem 13y ago
  Class action, and also direct action on the part of VLC for slander (if the VLC project is in a position to have lawyers available).
- anaphor 13y ago
  Also many mastering engineers do the exact same thing to make the music "louder" because the record label/artists demand it. Maybe Dell should start making popular rock/pop music void the warranty as well.
  - Roboprog 13y ago
    But, mine goes to 110%! (with apologies to Spinal Tap)
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      You haven't kept up with the times. Here Nigel Tufnel is introduced to Marshall amplifiers that go all the way to 20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI#t=170 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI#t=170
  - ferongr 13y ago
    Well, mastering engineers rarely heavily clip audio (ok, Death Magnetic, but that's an exception rather than the rule). What they do is apply heavy dynamic range compression. Even in cases the signal clips lightly, it probably won't do much damage (if at all) since the peaks are transient. On the other hand, a movie with lots of low frequency content (explosions and stuff) whose audio is clipping will damage the small full range speakers since most of the audio energy is concentrated at the very low frequencies (where the signal has a lot of power) and the peaks are long.
jbk 13y ago
As the main developer of VLC, we know about this story since a long time, and this is just Dell putting crap components on their machine and blaming others. Any discussion was impossible with them. So let me explain a bit... In this case, VLC just uses the Windows APIs (DirectSound), and sends signed integers of 16bits (s16) to the Windows Kernel. VLC allows amplification of the INPUT above the sound that was decoded. This is just like replay gain, broken codecs, badly recorded files or post-amplification and can lead to saturation. But this is exactly the same if you put your mp3 file through Audacity and increase it and play with WMP, or if you put a DirectShow filter that amplifies the volume after your codec output. For example, for a long time, VLC ac3 and mp3 codecs were too low (-6dB) compared to the reference output. At worse, this will reduce the dynamics and saturate a lot, but this is not going to break your hardware. VLC does not (and cannot) modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers. VLC is a Software using the OFFICIAL platforms APIs. The issue here is that Dell sound cards output power (that can be approached by a factor of the quadratic of the amplitude) that Dell speakers cannot handle. Simply said, the sound card outputs at max 10W, and the speakers only can take 6W in, and neither their BIOS or drivers block this. And as VLC is present on a lot of machines, it's simple to blame VLC. "Correlation does not mean causation" is something that seems too complex for cheap Dell support... Maybe Dell should advise against playing Metal music and should only allow Céline Dion music, because Metal saturates more... EDIT: more details... PS: they even provide a BIOS update for the fix... So, of course, VLC was the issue... http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/KcsArticles/ArticleView?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&docid=557836 http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/Kcs...
- speeder 13y ago
  Any other manufacturer do that? (someone mentioned HP below) I am a VLC fan (thanks! I wish I was skilled enough to contribute to the project) and right now using a ASUS laptop, I want to know what manufacturers I should NOT buy from next time (I bought this ASUS because I tried to buy from DELL and their site was buggy and did not closed the transaction... good to me their site was buggy!)
  - jbk 13y ago
    > Any other manufacturer do that? We heard about HP and Dell doing that, and ONLY in the version they shipped to India or South-East Asia (Do they ship worse components there?) > I wish I was skilled enough to contribute to the project There is a very high chance that you are skilled enough, to be honest.
noonespecial 13y ago
All products eventually approach "if you use this product for anything at all, it voids the warranty". How fast they get there is an indication of the integrety (and managerial health) of the company behind them.
- maaaats 13y ago
  In my country (Norway) we are already protected better by law than the warranty in most cases, so what producers say will void it is often meaningless. If Dell said VLC was installed so warranty is void, I'd say I want the computer fixed as a "reklamasjon"-case, and so they can't hide between stupid rules like this. This also means that we are allowed to swap RAM, CPU's etc. in our computers without fear of not getting the computer fixed if it later breaks down for unrelated reasons.
intinno 13y ago
Yep, happened with me as well in India
mansr 13y ago
When the Samsung ARM Chromebook came out, people quickly found that careless tinkering with alsamixer caused the speakers to overheat and melt the case as a result of being driven with a high DC current. A driver update blocked the control causing the damaging signal routing.
- orik 13y ago
  I never realized they fixed that! What great news!
- tmzt 13y ago
  Do you know what kernel version or distribution fixed that? I've avoided installing a native distribution for that reason.
- userbinator 13y ago
  They didn't bother to put $0.001 DC blocking capacitors on the DAC outputs? This isn't a "bug in the kernel" or any software, it's a clear hardware flaw.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Be fair, those caps are easily two or three times that much.
    - userbinator 13y ago
      In relatively low quantities, yes: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL05A105KP5NNND-ND/3894185 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL0... But when you're buying them in quantities that a company like Samsung would (that above link is, amusingly enough, to ones that Samsung themselves make), the price drops off rather steeply. $0.001USD is around what I can find for buying them from China in 100Ku.
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
serf 13y ago
future headline : "Dell revokes hard-drive warranty for installation of software. Cites excess read and write of sectors akin to abuse."
lucb1e 13y ago
Anytime I call tech support, I'm running Windows 7 or 8.1 (depending on which they support) with antivirus installed, firewall on, and the latest MSIE. Hardware does not include an ssd unless that's the item I'm calling about. I will also pretend trying to restart my system and router. Good to know I should add Windows Media Player to the list.
- x0054 13y ago
  Don't forget that your laptop hasn't moved from the table where you unpacked it in months, you are located in a hermetically sealed, temperature and humidity controlled room, the laptop has absolutely no software on it other then the software it came with (updated to the latest version, of course), and on normal days you simply turn it on and lightly brush it's casing. Come to think about it, maybe skip the part about turning it on, that could be grounds for voiding the warranty.
  - Too 13y ago
    Software updated to the latest version? Big nono. You must use the 4 year old version, that came on a CD-ROM bundled with the computer.
tokenadult 13y ago
What is the current status of the vulnerability in VLC Media Player reported by Secunia? I see that there has been some online discussion of this in places outside Hacker News (which I searched the other day for more information about Secunia's vulnerability report). http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/ http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/ http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372 http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372 http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secunia-fighting-over-vulnerability-reports http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secuni... I have tried to update VLC Media Player on one machine on my home network, and the update fails, suggesting that the VLC Media Player installation on that computer may already be compromised by malware (which has previously been detected on that machine). What is the recommendation for current VLC Media Player users to make sure that they have a recently updated, reasonably safe installation of VLC Media Player that doesn't open up their computer to other vulnerabilities?
- dave809 13y ago
  wait, so you currently have an infected computer on your home network?
  - tokenadult 13y ago
    Secunia reports that I need to update VLC Media Player on a computer from which I recently removed a lot of malware (with the help of Malware Bytes, of which I have a purchased copy on that computer). I installed Secunia on the same computer, and it has not been able to do its update of VLC Media Player, nor have I been able to get an update of that to install by going directly to the VLC Media Player website and downloading the latest version. That is worrisome. Would I be better off just completely uninstalling VLC Media Player? AFTER EDIT: I might have considered a direct answer to my question (whatever the answer was) more helpful than a silent downvote to what was, after all, just a polite response to a question that someone asked me. AFTER FURTHER EDIT: After some more rebooting of the previously infected computer, the operating system and Secunia both report that VLC Media Player version 2.1.3 is installed, and that is not reported to have any problem by Secunia. So I will leave that alone. The computer from which I usually post to HN, a different computer on the same home network, does not have VLC Media Player installed. I try to keep a close-to-bare-stock set of installed programs on this computer, but other users in my household (= teenage boys who aspire to be hackers) tend to install programs I've never heard of on the other computer on our home network, and my wife, who has other things on her mind, occasionally doesn't notice installations of crapware or adware or bloatware that tag along with legitimate program updates on that computer. So that other computer tends to be the vector for malware attacks on the home network here. Thanks for any further comments participants here have on how to keep a home network safe when not all users follow strict quarantine policies.
gautamsomani 13y ago
I had once faced the exact same issue once in Mar 2009, so all I did was called them again after some time from a different number and using a different name and told them that No, VLC was not installed. And I got my warranty upheld and speaker replaced.
hrjet 13y ago
Dell support and policies are utterly broken. I had a Dell Vostro which worked fine except at one time it started emitting fumes when running a CPU intensive task. I was denied warranty because I was running Linux! Since then I have vowed never to buy Dell.
__david__ 13y ago
So basically, Dell's crappy speaker/amp design can't handle square waves at full volume. I suppose you shouldn't listen to loud chip-tunes either, then.
- userbinator 13y ago
  This is particularly amusing to me, as someone who regularly enjoys more... extreme genres of music that features lots of distortion and hard clipping. My no-name cheap Chinese speakers and headphones haven't died because of it, in fact my ears probably have less tolerance than the hardware.
aceofspades19 13y ago
I used to work for Dell tech support, and I used to install VLC on customer's machines all the time..woops. At that time there was no rule against it and we generally assumed that software couldn't damage hardware. When I worked there, Dell seemed to have one of the more lenient warranty policies of any company.
beloch 13y ago
I bought a Dell M1330 laptop a few years ago and the speakers were crap even by laptop standards. This was fine with me, since I planned to use headphones. Unfortunately, the audio output was just as crappy! It had an insanely high noise-floor! I had to get a USB DAC/head-phone amp to make things acceptable. Lesson learned: Dell sucks at audio. If the speakers in a consumer device like a laptop can be damaged by maxing the volume then the laptop was not properly designed. This isn't a case of a nutty audiophile mixing and matching unknown preamps, amps, and speakers and managing to blow some cones by cranking it to 11. Dell has complete control over the selection of components in this laptop and, if they cared to, could include circuitry to limit power beneath a point that will damage the speakers. They didn't. Alternatively, they could eschew a limiter and select speaker components beefy enough to handle the maximum voltage that their DAC's can output. They didn't. Bad design. If Dell did the math and decided the number of users noticing permanent speaker damage would be small enough that the reduced part costs would outweigh the price of the resulting warranty service, that's their decision. However, they should be on the hook to fix damaged caused by their cheap/poor design.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
Seems pretty bogus, sure you can damage a speaker hooked directly up to some audio source, but there so many components between the DirectSound API and the speaker that making a system that can be damaged using the OS API's seems quite lame.
sklivvz1971 13y ago
In professional audio (and even amateur radio) one always puts speakers rated for 1.5x the nominal output of the amp. At least. This makes sure that whatever the input in the amp, the speakers are safe. If Dell doesn't build audio properly, how can they blame the users? They really have some gut...
- lcrs 13y ago
  I was always taught the opposite rule for PA amps - they should be rated higher than the speakers, as per http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=speaker+amp+power+matching#v=onepage&q=speaker%20amp%20power%20matching&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=..., http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-guide/#matching http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-guide/#mat... or similar. The reasoning being that a lower power amp would have to run flat out, and clip, which pushes a lot of energy into the HF drivers. Safer for the tweeters to have a more powerful amp which is not run into clipping, even if some peaks exceed the cabinet's rated power. The VLC volume control has always terrified me, I wish it would have AGC or at least a soft limiter when pushed above 100%. I've seen people watch films with it cranked up to 200% and the system volume turned down to compensate :(
altero 13y ago
Maybe am I too big nerd, but who would send laptop for repairs without wiping out harddrive first?
omerh 13y ago
I Killed my speakers on Dell Latitude 6330 when increase the volume to 200% (i got them replaced cause its my work laptop)
lucaspottersky 13y ago
Yeah, my speakers have blown up too... damn Dell and their cheap shit.
bmoresbest55 13y ago
This is insane. It's like saying LibreOffice can ruin your HDD, keyboard or some other BS that they can come up with. I have a Dell XPS M1530, it is five and a half years old and I remember the speakers blowing out in 2009. I got them covered under the warranty no problem. I know I am in the minority when saying that I like Dell and their support, I have had other problems and they have had no problem fixing them. This my start to change my mind...
pistle 13y ago
Who could stand to listen to audio from those crappy speakers, let alone at such a saturated loudness on said crappy speakers?
Glyptodon 13y ago
Dell owners should file a class action for use of defective speaker components.
AndyKelley 13y ago
I'm proud of the fact that soon my audio streaming library will be able to void Dell warranties too! https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45 https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45
retrogradeorbit 13y ago
Audio engineer here. All this means is the speakers in Dell laptops are crap.
acomjean 13y ago
This is why I use VLC. On the white polycarb apple macbooks the audio is really quiet. VLC made it useful by allowing me to turn the audio up louder (up to 200%). No damage to speakers here.
mikeash 13y ago
I'm surprised that I can't find any mention of the fact that this behavior is simply illegal, beyond the blatant technical stupidity. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act in the US prohibits voiding a warranty simply due to the use of third-party parts, unless those parts can actually be demonstrated to be the cause of the problem. The mere presence of a part is not enough. They'd have to show that your use of VLC actually caused this failure, and since I doubt they're keeping the sort of logs that can show that, they have no case. Companies like to talk about "voiding the warranty" for all kinds of stupid stuff, and consumers don't know their rights so they often get away with it, but what the law allows is considerably more constrained.
JetSpiegel 13y ago
Wait, people use laptop speakers?
xerophtye 13y ago
Random question, if my speakers get blown, and I uninstall VLC before taking in my laptop for repair, does that mean the warranty will cover it? (Yes i suppose that is morally wrong, but so is blaming VLC for your own bad designs)
razzmataz 13y ago
Is this true of the Latitude series of laptops? Or just the XPS? I would think the Commercial grade hardware would be a bit tougher.
ctdonath 13y ago
Possibly relevant anecdote... I once acquired an audio geologic recording of the tragic Christmas Eve tsunami in Indonesia. It was an interesting listen, with a lot of bass/sub-base frequencies. Played at what seemed a reasonable listening volume, it managed to destroy my iPod headphones. Seems some sounds can be inherently damaging to less robust equipment when seemingly operated well within sensible limits. (The replacement of said headphones cemented my appreciation of Apple: at a time Apple wasn't selling headphones alone, upon my consternation of not being able to buy a set, a clerk ripped open a random box and handed me new headphones gratis.)

490 points by mikecane 13y ago

What the...?

This is stupid. They are making speakers that can't withstand some cases of within-the-bounds PCM signal. If we had a normal society anywhere on earth they would be sued to the ground there.

Ma8ee 13y ago
Speakers are built to be able to withstand short peaks with high power to reflect the dynamic in the music or your movie. This is what is abused to be able to play loud sounds continuously. You could take the possibility to do that away, but then you would of course also remove some of the dynamics out of the music. But of course, the people that burn their speakers this way don't care about dynamics or evidently about sound quality if they press their computer speakers like this. Can't sound not even a little good.
- philliphaydon 13y ago
  Not sure if you've ever owned a Dell laptop, but I'll never buy one again. On a couple of occasions I have tried to play DVD's on them and cannot hear people talking with the volume up. Put headphones on and its too loud. Dell speakers are junk.
  - aestra 13y ago
    Um in my experience all laptop speakers of all brands are like that.
    - TillE 13y ago
      I've watched a number of films on a Macbook Air without that particular problem. They are still terrible speakers, though. I almost laughed when showing a friend Star Wars for the first time; it doesn't even come close to doing the soundtrack justice.
    - skriticos2 13y ago
      No. I have a System76 Ubuntu laptop and the speaker quality is excellent. Plays music nicely and sound is clear and crisp. How many quality laptops do you have experience with?
      - aestra 13y ago
        Never had a System76, but I've owned a few Asus and a Toshiba and when I lived with 5 other people in college, the topic came up and we all agreed on the quality of our respective laptop speakers. Of course I was in college quite a while ago.
    - philliphaydon 13y ago
      I run Windows 8.1 on my MBP/r and don't have that issue at all. External DVD Drive, play one of my DVDs on the Mac, audio is perfectly fine. Play the same DVD on my Asus UX31, cannot hear the people talking, use VLC player to up the audio to 125% and its fine.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    I've owned two. Both "died" shortly (very shortly) after the warranty expired. On both, the connector from the mobo to the power input cracked right off (I never yanked, dropped, or otherwise abused them. Just normal use.) I could fix it, but it was a pain, and the stress points didn't change, so it just happened again. On the second, the screen began to go at 14 months. I would never by consumer electronics from Dell again.
- iSnow 13y ago
  If it was a fundamental problem like you indicate, then every manufacturer would be hit by it, from Apple to Lenovo. It rather seems a problem of Dell using shoddy components and/or not issuing a driver that protects the speaker from the amp.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  "Speakers are built to be able to withstand short peaks with high power" And they should be built to be able to withstand any valid signal.
- KaiserPro 13y ago
  Thats what limiters are for. The whole point of hard clipping is that +256 or -256 (or the 16bit equivalent) is below the point at which your speakers, amps, cabling or anything else starts to melt. Speakers/amps should have DC protection builtin.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > Thats what limiters are for. Limiters cannot either distinguish or protect against the technical difference between a sine wave and a square wave: http://i.imgur.com/oE5NFZ9.png http://i.imgur.com/oE5NFZ9.png The red trace is a normal audio signal that doesn't exceed the dynamic range of the amplifier. The green trace is an example of the kind of signal one gets by turning the volume up way above normal. In a hypothetical speaker of one ohm and a peak voltage of one volt, the red trace has a time-averaged power level of 1/2 watt. The green trace has a power level of one watt -- twice as high, and possibly too high for the speakers to tolerate. > Speakers/amps should have DC protection builtin. This example should show that this isn't possible without taking the temperature of the speaker's activation coil -- and even that might not work.
    - tmzt 13y ago
      Couldn't he codec chip do it by averaging the amplitude? I'm not sure if they are more than a DAY though or whether they have a microcontroller and firmware.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > Couldn't he codec chip do it by averaging the amplitude? Yes in principle, but it would be rather complicated -- it would need to have its own microprocessor just to save the speaker. D/A ICs with included amplifiers are already pretty complex. Also, if a user was listening to music that had an occasional high level, the special limiter might kick in and spoil the sound of the audio for a transient that wouldn't actually jeopardize the speakers.
    - caf 13y ago
      An analogue bandpass filter could be used. Passing a square wave through such a filter will remove much of the power present at inaudible frequencies. Unfortunately, they also require bulky inductors/capacitors.

jokoon 13y ago

If DELL is right that would mean even if I craft a sound file with a very high amplitude, play it with another software, it should not damage the speakers. I would have thought windows could limitate the amplitude of the sound sent to the hardware, maybe VLC is somehow bypassing this. Seems like an odd issue though.

Jare 13y ago

That kind of amplitude abuse is the equivalent of pounding very hard on the keyboard for long periods of time - it will break sooner than it would normally have, and can rightfully be considered abuse. However, voiding the warranty simply because of VLC installed is, again, the equivalent of voiding the keyboard warranty simply because you are a bodybuilder. Ok enough metaphors.

tunap 13y ago
"Ok enough metaphors." Not so fast, I see no car metaphor yet. And there is no comparison of Dell's practices to those of Hitler or the Nazis, either. We are far from 'enough' metaphors, my friend.
shawnz 13y ago
If I am understanding this correctly, a specially crafted mp3 file, played in Windows Media Player or similar, could cause the same symptoms that Dell is indicating VLC could create. Surely that would be considered a totally normal operating condition that the speakers should be tolerant against. It may be heavy use, but does that mean it is abuse?
- jbk 13y ago
  Yes, exactly. Use Audacity to increase the volume and play with WMP to get the same result.
- dpe82 13y ago
  Likely not an mp3 because most of the super high frequencies that result from digital clipping wouldn't be encoded in an mp3. Most encoders do a low pass filter as their first step (getting rid of most of the problem) and then smooth out the rest of the waveform when compressing it. It's possible, however, to create raw PCM that will destroy a lot of consumer equipment if played long and loud enough. VLC basically gives consumers a way to do that and labels it a feature.
EpicEng 13y ago
If the card could not overdrive the speakers (i.e., if the system were designed properly) it could not be a problem.

pera 13y ago

Next logic step: playing DUBSTEP voids your speaker warranty

zimbatm 13y ago

Not speaking of Dell's behavior but VLC should maybe add a warning to the settings when the user goes over 100% if it damages the speakers.

naner 13y ago
The VLC creators claim the player cannot be used to damage speakers. That and hard clipping is obvious and sounds awful, so it should be apparent you're doing something wrong.
jbk 13y ago
VLC cannot damage anything more than any other player using the Windows APIs.
- NeliX4 13y ago
  Yes it does. It makes too simple for non-techical user to make the signal distorted. Distorted signal can damage a speaker, even in low volume. It's irrelevat to blame "the others do it too". I've seen it happen many times in meetings. 1. Presenter shows a video and volume is low. 2. Presenter adds volume from VLC to 200% and sound signal gets distorted. 3. Sound is awful, no-one can hear anything and people are doing nothing to fix it, because they think that speakers are broken. Please VLC, fix your player so that it has good sounding limiter on the "output". It's not difficult.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
chc 13y ago
Whether it can damage the speakers depends on whether your sound system is defective. Dell deliberately ships defective speakers and doesn't cover the defects in its warranty. But it's not like the speakers will notify VLC of this fact, though.

Aardwolf 13y ago

Shouldn't instead Dell make the speakers not be able to get physically damanged by software?

maxerickson 13y ago
It would probably either cost more or the speakers would have a lower peak volume. I don't think it is a wild compromise to make some assumptions about the sounds people will play through the speakers (and it's not like a spec relating the max energy/time is going to help most shoppers).
- Aardwolf 13y ago
  Well, it's also a wild compromise to say the warranty is void by installing popular software. If they would instead say, the warranty is void if you go above such and so threshold for such and so long (no matter with what software), that would make sense, but this, just seems a cheap way of making the warranty unexistent. Anyway, a moderator from Dell replied that you can contact him if Dell refuses to give support just by seeing VLC installed, so maybe it's better than it seems.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    Yeah, it's nonsense that they are straight up blaming VLC. (But I don't think it is obviously unreasonable to sell a cheap laptop with cheap speakers, configured to be able to make louder peaks)
- KaiserPro 13y ago
  Thats like saying that you can't have 100% for more than 2 seconds because it would cause instability. Speakers shouldn't melt because of software (unless there is dodgy firmware.)
- TylerE 13y ago
  > (and it's not like a spec relating the max energy/time is going to help most shoppers Actually, speakers are speced in terms of RMS wattage...which is exactly that.

jijji 13y ago

sounds like buggy speaker hardware or firmware. How about don't use Dell laptops to play audio?

zephjc 13y ago

What kind of person uses crappy laptop speakers for media consumption?

collyw 13y ago
far too many people do, and many annoyingly listen to music through the crappy speakers on their phone, usually in public.
- zephjc 13y ago
  Then if they blow out their crappy speakers, maybe that will leave them with no recourse but to plug their headphones in

g123g 13y ago

Even HP has the same policy which I found to my dismay three years back.

donatj 13y ago

VLC is incapable of increasing the actual power past 100%, all that is being done is the waveform is being modified to be louder within the allowed constraints. If this wrecks the speaker, any other non-VLCed sound could just as easily, and the speakers are therefore underpowered for the laptops internal amplifier. Class action sounds in order.

GeneralMayhem 13y ago
Class action, and also direct action on the part of VLC for slander (if the VLC project is in a position to have lawyers available).
anaphor 13y ago
Also many mastering engineers do the exact same thing to make the music "louder" because the record label/artists demand it. Maybe Dell should start making popular rock/pop music void the warranty as well.
- Roboprog 13y ago
  But, mine goes to 110%! (with apologies to Spinal Tap)
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    You haven't kept up with the times. Here Nigel Tufnel is introduced to Marshall amplifiers that go all the way to 20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI#t=170 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI#t=170
- ferongr 13y ago
  Well, mastering engineers rarely heavily clip audio (ok, Death Magnetic, but that's an exception rather than the rule). What they do is apply heavy dynamic range compression. Even in cases the signal clips lightly, it probably won't do much damage (if at all) since the peaks are transient. On the other hand, a movie with lots of low frequency content (explosions and stuff) whose audio is clipping will damage the small full range speakers since most of the audio energy is concentrated at the very low frequencies (where the signal has a lot of power) and the peaks are long.

jbk 13y ago

As the main developer of VLC, we know about this story since a long time, and this is just Dell putting crap components on their machine and blaming others. Any discussion was impossible with them. So let me explain a bit... In this case, VLC just uses the Windows APIs (DirectSound), and sends signed integers of 16bits (s16) to the Windows Kernel. VLC allows amplification of the INPUT above the sound that was decoded. This is just like replay gain, broken codecs, badly recorded files or post-amplification and can lead to saturation. But this is exactly the same if you put your mp3 file through Audacity and increase it and play with WMP, or if you put a DirectShow filter that amplifies the volume after your codec output. For example, for a long time, VLC ac3 and mp3 codecs were too low (-6dB) compared to the reference output. At worse, this will reduce the dynamics and saturate a lot, but this is not going to break your hardware. VLC does not (and cannot) modify the OUTPUT volume to destroy the speakers. VLC is a Software using the OFFICIAL platforms APIs. The issue here is that Dell sound cards output power (that can be approached by a factor of the quadratic of the amplitude) that Dell speakers cannot handle. Simply said, the sound card outputs at max 10W, and the speakers only can take 6W in, and neither their BIOS or drivers block this. And as VLC is present on a lot of machines, it's simple to blame VLC. "Correlation does not mean causation" is something that seems too complex for cheap Dell support... Maybe Dell should advise against playing Metal music and should only allow Céline Dion music, because Metal saturates more... EDIT: more details... PS: they even provide a BIOS update for the fix... So, of course, VLC was the issue... http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/KcsArticles/ArticleView?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&docid=557836 http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/us/en/04/KCS/Kcs...

speeder 13y ago
Any other manufacturer do that? (someone mentioned HP below) I am a VLC fan (thanks! I wish I was skilled enough to contribute to the project) and right now using a ASUS laptop, I want to know what manufacturers I should NOT buy from next time (I bought this ASUS because I tried to buy from DELL and their site was buggy and did not closed the transaction... good to me their site was buggy!)
- jbk 13y ago
  > Any other manufacturer do that? We heard about HP and Dell doing that, and ONLY in the version they shipped to India or South-East Asia (Do they ship worse components there?) > I wish I was skilled enough to contribute to the project There is a very high chance that you are skilled enough, to be honest.

noonespecial 13y ago

All products eventually approach "if you use this product for anything at all, it voids the warranty". How fast they get there is an indication of the integrety (and managerial health) of the company behind them.

maaaats 13y ago
In my country (Norway) we are already protected better by law than the warranty in most cases, so what producers say will void it is often meaningless. If Dell said VLC was installed so warranty is void, I'd say I want the computer fixed as a "reklamasjon"-case, and so they can't hide between stupid rules like this. This also means that we are allowed to swap RAM, CPU's etc. in our computers without fear of not getting the computer fixed if it later breaks down for unrelated reasons.

intinno 13y ago

Yep, happened with me as well in India

mansr 13y ago

When the Samsung ARM Chromebook came out, people quickly found that careless tinkering with alsamixer caused the speakers to overheat and melt the case as a result of being driven with a high DC current. A driver update blocked the control causing the damaging signal routing.

orik 13y ago
I never realized they fixed that! What great news!
tmzt 13y ago
Do you know what kernel version or distribution fixed that? I've avoided installing a native distribution for that reason.
userbinator 13y ago
They didn't bother to put $0.001 DC blocking capacitors on the DAC outputs? This isn't a "bug in the kernel" or any software, it's a clear hardware flaw.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Be fair, those caps are easily two or three times that much.
  - userbinator 13y ago
    In relatively low quantities, yes: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL05A105KP5NNND-ND/3894185 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CL05A105KP5NNND/CL0... But when you're buying them in quantities that a company like Samsung would (that above link is, amusingly enough, to ones that Samsung themselves make), the price drops off rather steeply. $0.001USD is around what I can find for buying them from China in 100Ku.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

serf 13y ago

future headline : "Dell revokes hard-drive warranty for installation of software. Cites excess read and write of sectors akin to abuse."

lucb1e 13y ago

Anytime I call tech support, I'm running Windows 7 or 8.1 (depending on which they support) with antivirus installed, firewall on, and the latest MSIE. Hardware does not include an ssd unless that's the item I'm calling about. I will also pretend trying to restart my system and router. Good to know I should add Windows Media Player to the list.

x0054 13y ago
Don't forget that your laptop hasn't moved from the table where you unpacked it in months, you are located in a hermetically sealed, temperature and humidity controlled room, the laptop has absolutely no software on it other then the software it came with (updated to the latest version, of course), and on normal days you simply turn it on and lightly brush it's casing. Come to think about it, maybe skip the part about turning it on, that could be grounds for voiding the warranty.
- Too 13y ago
  Software updated to the latest version? Big nono. You must use the 4 year old version, that came on a CD-ROM bundled with the computer.

tokenadult 13y ago

What is the current status of the vulnerability in VLC Media Player reported by Secunia? I see that there has been some online discussion of this in places outside Hacker News (which I searched the other day for more information about Secunia's vulnerability report). http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/ http://secunia.com/advisories/52956/ http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372 http://secunia.com/blog/shooting-the-messenger-372 http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secunia-fighting-over-vulnerability-reports http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/07/10/1520245/vlc-and-secuni... I have tried to update VLC Media Player on one machine on my home network, and the update fails, suggesting that the VLC Media Player installation on that computer may already be compromised by malware (which has previously been detected on that machine). What is the recommendation for current VLC Media Player users to make sure that they have a recently updated, reasonably safe installation of VLC Media Player that doesn't open up their computer to other vulnerabilities?

dave809 13y ago
wait, so you currently have an infected computer on your home network?
- tokenadult 13y ago
  Secunia reports that I need to update VLC Media Player on a computer from which I recently removed a lot of malware (with the help of Malware Bytes, of which I have a purchased copy on that computer). I installed Secunia on the same computer, and it has not been able to do its update of VLC Media Player, nor have I been able to get an update of that to install by going directly to the VLC Media Player website and downloading the latest version. That is worrisome. Would I be better off just completely uninstalling VLC Media Player? AFTER EDIT: I might have considered a direct answer to my question (whatever the answer was) more helpful than a silent downvote to what was, after all, just a polite response to a question that someone asked me. AFTER FURTHER EDIT: After some more rebooting of the previously infected computer, the operating system and Secunia both report that VLC Media Player version 2.1.3 is installed, and that is not reported to have any problem by Secunia. So I will leave that alone. The computer from which I usually post to HN, a different computer on the same home network, does not have VLC Media Player installed. I try to keep a close-to-bare-stock set of installed programs on this computer, but other users in my household (= teenage boys who aspire to be hackers) tend to install programs I've never heard of on the other computer on our home network, and my wife, who has other things on her mind, occasionally doesn't notice installations of crapware or adware or bloatware that tag along with legitimate program updates on that computer. So that other computer tends to be the vector for malware attacks on the home network here. Thanks for any further comments participants here have on how to keep a home network safe when not all users follow strict quarantine policies.

gautamsomani 13y ago

I had once faced the exact same issue once in Mar 2009, so all I did was called them again after some time from a different number and using a different name and told them that No, VLC was not installed. And I got my warranty upheld and speaker replaced.

hrjet 13y ago

Dell support and policies are utterly broken. I had a Dell Vostro which worked fine except at one time it started emitting fumes when running a CPU intensive task. I was denied warranty because I was running Linux! Since then I have vowed never to buy Dell.

__david__ 13y ago

So basically, Dell's crappy speaker/amp design can't handle square waves at full volume. I suppose you shouldn't listen to loud chip-tunes either, then.

userbinator 13y ago
This is particularly amusing to me, as someone who regularly enjoys more... extreme genres of music that features lots of distortion and hard clipping. My no-name cheap Chinese speakers and headphones haven't died because of it, in fact my ears probably have less tolerance than the hardware.

aceofspades19 13y ago

I used to work for Dell tech support, and I used to install VLC on customer's machines all the time..woops. At that time there was no rule against it and we generally assumed that software couldn't damage hardware. When I worked there, Dell seemed to have one of the more lenient warranty policies of any company.

beloch 13y ago

I bought a Dell M1330 laptop a few years ago and the speakers were crap even by laptop standards. This was fine with me, since I planned to use headphones. Unfortunately, the audio output was just as crappy! It had an insanely high noise-floor! I had to get a USB DAC/head-phone amp to make things acceptable. Lesson learned: Dell sucks at audio. If the speakers in a consumer device like a laptop can be damaged by maxing the volume then the laptop was not properly designed. This isn't a case of a nutty audiophile mixing and matching unknown preamps, amps, and speakers and managing to blow some cones by cranking it to 11. Dell has complete control over the selection of components in this laptop and, if they cared to, could include circuitry to limit power beneath a point that will damage the speakers. They didn't. Alternatively, they could eschew a limiter and select speaker components beefy enough to handle the maximum voltage that their DAC's can output. They didn't. Bad design. If Dell did the math and decided the number of users noticing permanent speaker damage would be small enough that the reduced part costs would outweigh the price of the resulting warranty service, that's their decision. However, they should be on the hook to fix damaged caused by their cheap/poor design.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

Seems pretty bogus, sure you can damage a speaker hooked directly up to some audio source, but there so many components between the DirectSound API and the speaker that making a system that can be damaged using the OS API's seems quite lame.

sklivvz1971 13y ago

In professional audio (and even amateur radio) one always puts speakers rated for 1.5x the nominal output of the amp. At least. This makes sure that whatever the input in the amp, the speakers are safe. If Dell doesn't build audio properly, how can they blame the users? They really have some gut...

lcrs 13y ago
I was always taught the opposite rule for PA amps - they should be rated higher than the speakers, as per http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=speaker+amp+power+matching#v=onepage&q=speaker%20amp%20power%20matching&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWILAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&dq=..., http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-guide/#matching http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/power-amp-buying-guide/#mat... or similar. The reasoning being that a lower power amp would have to run flat out, and clip, which pushes a lot of energy into the HF drivers. Safer for the tweeters to have a more powerful amp which is not run into clipping, even if some peaks exceed the cabinet's rated power. The VLC volume control has always terrified me, I wish it would have AGC or at least a soft limiter when pushed above 100%. I've seen people watch films with it cranked up to 200% and the system volume turned down to compensate :(

altero 13y ago

Maybe am I too big nerd, but who would send laptop for repairs without wiping out harddrive first?

omerh 13y ago

I Killed my speakers on Dell Latitude 6330 when increase the volume to 200% (i got them replaced cause its my work laptop)

lucaspottersky 13y ago

Yeah, my speakers have blown up too... damn Dell and their cheap shit.

bmoresbest55 13y ago

This is insane. It's like saying LibreOffice can ruin your HDD, keyboard or some other BS that they can come up with. I have a Dell XPS M1530, it is five and a half years old and I remember the speakers blowing out in 2009. I got them covered under the warranty no problem. I know I am in the minority when saying that I like Dell and their support, I have had other problems and they have had no problem fixing them. This my start to change my mind...

pistle 13y ago

Who could stand to listen to audio from those crappy speakers, let alone at such a saturated loudness on said crappy speakers?

Glyptodon 13y ago

Dell owners should file a class action for use of defective speaker components.

AndyKelley 13y ago

I'm proud of the fact that soon my audio streaming library will be able to void Dell warranties too! https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45 https://github.com/andrewrk/libgroove/issues/45

retrogradeorbit 13y ago

Audio engineer here. All this means is the speakers in Dell laptops are crap.

acomjean 13y ago

This is why I use VLC. On the white polycarb apple macbooks the audio is really quiet. VLC made it useful by allowing me to turn the audio up louder (up to 200%). No damage to speakers here.

mikeash 13y ago

I'm surprised that I can't find any mention of the fact that this behavior is simply illegal, beyond the blatant technical stupidity. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act in the US prohibits voiding a warranty simply due to the use of third-party parts, unless those parts can actually be demonstrated to be the cause of the problem. The mere presence of a part is not enough. They'd have to show that your use of VLC actually caused this failure, and since I doubt they're keeping the sort of logs that can show that, they have no case. Companies like to talk about "voiding the warranty" for all kinds of stupid stuff, and consumers don't know their rights so they often get away with it, but what the law allows is considerably more constrained.

JetSpiegel 13y ago

Wait, people use laptop speakers?

xerophtye 13y ago

Random question, if my speakers get blown, and I uninstall VLC before taking in my laptop for repair, does that mean the warranty will cover it? (Yes i suppose that is morally wrong, but so is blaming VLC for your own bad designs)

razzmataz 13y ago

Is this true of the Latitude series of laptops? Or just the XPS? I would think the Commercial grade hardware would be a bit tougher.

ctdonath 13y ago

Possibly relevant anecdote... I once acquired an audio geologic recording of the tragic Christmas Eve tsunami in Indonesia. It was an interesting listen, with a lot of bass/sub-base frequencies. Played at what seemed a reasonable listening volume, it managed to destroy my iPod headphones. Seems some sounds can be inherently damaging to less robust equipment when seemingly operated well within sensible limits. (The replacement of said headphones cemented my appreciation of Apple: at a time Apple wasn't selling headphones alone, upon my consternation of not being able to buy a set, a clerk ripped open a random box and handed me new headphones gratis.)