6 ms·

Der Spiegel says US bugged EU offices in Washington

202 points by sk2code 13y ago

e3pi 13y ago
"... The information appears in secret documents obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden that ====> SPIEGEL has in part seen. <==== A "top secret" 2010 document describes how the secret service attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington." ... "... For weeks now, new details about Prism and other surveillance programs have been emerging that had been compiled by whistleblower Snowden." Am I correct inferring there are Snowden leaked docs passing about beyond distributors The Guardian and the Washington Post? For example, suppose Wikileaks have the entire 'Snowden stack' and its worker bees' 'discovery' pass up to a dispatcher deciding: if, who -receives it? This has been going on for the past ~month? This is the first evidence I've encountered. Anything else?
- nieve 13y ago
  Snowden has been releasing documents steadily & feeding stories to other outlets(1) and has stated he has quite a few more stashed with people who will decrypt and distribute the full set immediately if anything happens to him. Given that what we've seen has been cherry-picked from what appears to be a much larger collection and he's stated he has more, the odds are pretty high. He's probably passing some to Wikileaks, but I'd be surprised if they have the full dump. (1) The South China Morning Post out of Hong Kong broke the PacNet story: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive-us-hacked-pacnet-asia-pacific-fibre-optic-network-operator http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive...
- jlgreco 13y ago
  You can use asterisks for emphasis.
- weinzierl 13y ago
  Coauthor of the Spiegel article is Laura Poitras. If I remember the story correctly she was the first person contacted by Snowden regarding the leaked documents (even before Greenwald). She is probably the link between Snowden and Spiegel.
  - antocv 13y ago
    Poor woman. Lets make a list of all the journalists that are a link between Wikileaks/Manning/Snowden and a journal, then we can look back 5, 10 years from now to see in what accident they each died.
    - krapp 13y ago
      I think the NSA can read a byline all on their own.
  - e3pi 13y ago
    Excellent field work Ludwig, again HN's Munchen's desk amply demonstrates operatives in the field return the best and most decisive intel. By the way, I encountered last night Walter Ruttmann's 1927 fascinating hour long classic silent film celebrating Weimar Berlin: The few autos, centric of trains, many horses, trams, new to me architecture long ago gone, men in hats, intense machinists in factories, and foundries' men at work: http://archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity http://archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity You familiar with this? My favorite Paul Graham essay you forensically dissected with your profiling tools, wc: 362, is `The Roots of Lisp'. I do the most rudimentary lisp, but this Conway introduction shared with me PG's enthusiasm and excitement focusing on lisp's eval, which I've wondered about forever and still do.
mpyne 13y ago
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962954
xorgar831 13y ago
A spy organization caught spying, shocking.
- tokenizer 13y ago
  so the EU is the US's enemy? I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. The definition is: "An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies." As far as I'm concerned, people should be more concerned about this, unless they feel like they agree with their governments actions as valid, thus confirming they do in fact believe the EU is a potential enemy. If that's the case, I feel the EU should take some drastic measures against the US.
  - carbocation 13y ago
    France spies on Germany. Should Germany take "drastic" measures against France?
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      Does France also kidnap people and put them into secret prisons? Does it demand support for offensive wars, and do we live in a "post Eiffelturm tower" world? When, since Napoleon, was something like "either with us or against us" heard from there? Also, yes, why not. Maybe the first step could be to stop spying on France, the second could be mocking the spies with baguettes? Because you have a point and fair is fair.
      - gdy 13y ago
        >Does it demand support for offensive wars It did so with Libya and now talking about arming terrorists in Syria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_L...
      - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
        Oh is France the magical country with no blood on its hands? France, I suppose has never been a part of supporting brutal African dictators or anything like that? You're not even serious. On some level your "post Eiffel tower" or whatever nonsense you're talking about might be sort of funny but it seems you are more addressing how relevant France has been on the world stage than anything else. If you really want to play this game, we can just, instead, talk about how proportionally relevant France has been in the rest of the world since the time of Napoleon.
nslocum 13y ago
"Trust, but verify" It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations, even allies. That's why it's common for friendly nations to do extensive spying on each other. Any government who didn't at least try to do so would be doing a disservice to its people.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. Also, the second I start spying, I also would need to spy on even more, to see if they're on to me spying on them. Yay, there goes the whole afternoon! It's just redefining everyone to be a potential enemy, because the objective is total control. Amongst individuals it's obvious only psychos or people with something (real fucking ugly) to hide would do that, to anyone but said psychos. Why would nations be different? Because we're in them? Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. You maybe. But when there are multi-trillion dollar trade agreements in order, and the top dog (US) wants to push a weak bureacratic constellation of nations (EU) in it's favor, then the thing changes. It's even worse to any trade agreement with lesser nations (think Mexico, Latin America, Africa, etc). >Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones? Well, if the objectives are "get the upper hand on the negotiations" (including "bribe/blackmail individuals involved in them to rule in our favor", then it very much achieves them.
- chmike 13y ago
  Spying for your personnal enlightment is one thing. Using that information and interferring to bent the course of things in your own interrest is anotherr. There is no clear line between the two and it is easily crossed. So assuming it's only a matter of spying is in my opinon a little bit naïve. That's also the reason why spying people is something to worry. Who controls what is done with the inormation ? How could one defend against abuse of a state? This will be like drones killing civilians ! No one cares. Until it's your turn, and no body will care.
oellegaard 13y ago
I honestly think the EU should make it clear that our friendship with the US cannot be uphold with serious breaches such as this one. Its your good friend spying on your and your wife having sex, not because he needs to, but because he wants to know everything. With countries or persons, you can only be true friends if you trust that you are told what you need to know, you shouldn't have to acquire information yourself.
- _k 13y ago
  Meanwhile the EU thinks it's a good idea to negotiate a new EU - US trade agreement. And it's a good idea, but not when one side is spying on the other. They should place it on hold.
  - antocv 13y ago
    EU is also spying on US, it just hasnt turned into a scandal yet. Its not out of malice or intent to hurt the other party, its just pure power, information is power. Who knows most at the negotiating table wins.
    - black4eternity 13y ago
      Then it's not a negotiation between friends interested in mutual growth. I agree information is power. But there are limits to power. Trust also matters.
    - hwh 13y ago
      "The EU" is probably not spying, it simply doesn't have institutions to do so. The EU lacks "federal" agencies in the security service sector, that's still a matter of the EU member nations with cooperation only on a bureaucracy level.
    - kalms 13y ago
      Citation? And no, France is not "EU".
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago

202 points by sk2code 13y ago

e3pi 13y ago

"... The information appears in secret documents obtained by whistleblower Edward Snowden that ====> SPIEGEL has in part seen. <==== A "top secret" 2010 document describes how the secret service attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington." ... "... For weeks now, new details about Prism and other surveillance programs have been emerging that had been compiled by whistleblower Snowden." Am I correct inferring there are Snowden leaked docs passing about beyond distributors The Guardian and the Washington Post? For example, suppose Wikileaks have the entire 'Snowden stack' and its worker bees' 'discovery' pass up to a dispatcher deciding: if, who -receives it? This has been going on for the past ~month? This is the first evidence I've encountered. Anything else?

nieve 13y ago
Snowden has been releasing documents steadily & feeding stories to other outlets(1) and has stated he has quite a few more stashed with people who will decrypt and distribute the full set immediately if anything happens to him. Given that what we've seen has been cherry-picked from what appears to be a much larger collection and he's stated he has more, the odds are pretty high. He's probably passing some to Wikileaks, but I'd be surprised if they have the full dump. (1) The South China Morning Post out of Hong Kong broke the PacNet story: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive-us-hacked-pacnet-asia-pacific-fibre-optic-network-operator http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive...
jlgreco 13y ago
You can use asterisks for emphasis.
weinzierl 13y ago
Coauthor of the Spiegel article is Laura Poitras. If I remember the story correctly she was the first person contacted by Snowden regarding the leaked documents (even before Greenwald). She is probably the link between Snowden and Spiegel.
- antocv 13y ago
  Poor woman. Lets make a list of all the journalists that are a link between Wikileaks/Manning/Snowden and a journal, then we can look back 5, 10 years from now to see in what accident they each died.
  - krapp 13y ago
    I think the NSA can read a byline all on their own.
- e3pi 13y ago
  Excellent field work Ludwig, again HN's Munchen's desk amply demonstrates operatives in the field return the best and most decisive intel. By the way, I encountered last night Walter Ruttmann's 1927 fascinating hour long classic silent film celebrating Weimar Berlin: The few autos, centric of trains, many horses, trams, new to me architecture long ago gone, men in hats, intense machinists in factories, and foundries' men at work: http://archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity http://archive.org/details/BerlinSymphonyofaGreatCity You familiar with this? My favorite Paul Graham essay you forensically dissected with your profiling tools, wc: 362, is `The Roots of Lisp'. I do the most rudimentary lisp, but this Conway introduction shared with me PG's enthusiasm and excitement focusing on lisp's eval, which I've wondered about forever and still do.

mpyne 13y ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962954

xorgar831 13y ago

A spy organization caught spying, shocking.

tokenizer 13y ago
so the EU is the US's enemy? I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. The definition is: "An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies." As far as I'm concerned, people should be more concerned about this, unless they feel like they agree with their governments actions as valid, thus confirming they do in fact believe the EU is a potential enemy. If that's the case, I feel the EU should take some drastic measures against the US.
- carbocation 13y ago
  France spies on Germany. Should Germany take "drastic" measures against France?
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Does France also kidnap people and put them into secret prisons? Does it demand support for offensive wars, and do we live in a "post Eiffelturm tower" world? When, since Napoleon, was something like "either with us or against us" heard from there? Also, yes, why not. Maybe the first step could be to stop spying on France, the second could be mocking the spies with baguettes? Because you have a point and fair is fair.
    - gdy 13y ago
      >Does it demand support for offensive wars It did so with Libya and now talking about arming terrorists in Syria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_L...
    - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
      Oh is France the magical country with no blood on its hands? France, I suppose has never been a part of supporting brutal African dictators or anything like that? You're not even serious. On some level your "post Eiffel tower" or whatever nonsense you're talking about might be sort of funny but it seems you are more addressing how relevant France has been on the world stage than anything else. If you really want to play this game, we can just, instead, talk about how proportionally relevant France has been in the rest of the world since the time of Napoleon.

nslocum 13y ago

"Trust, but verify" It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations, even allies. That's why it's common for friendly nations to do extensive spying on each other. Any government who didn't at least try to do so would be doing a disservice to its people.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. Also, the second I start spying, I also would need to spy on even more, to see if they're on to me spying on them. Yay, there goes the whole afternoon! It's just redefining everyone to be a potential enemy, because the objective is total control. Amongst individuals it's obvious only psychos or people with something (real fucking ugly) to hide would do that, to anyone but said psychos. Why would nations be different? Because we're in them? Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. You maybe. But when there are multi-trillion dollar trade agreements in order, and the top dog (US) wants to push a weak bureacratic constellation of nations (EU) in it's favor, then the thing changes. It's even worse to any trade agreement with lesser nations (think Mexico, Latin America, Africa, etc). >Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones? Well, if the objectives are "get the upper hand on the negotiations" (including "bribe/blackmail individuals involved in them to rule in our favor", then it very much achieves them.
chmike 13y ago
Spying for your personnal enlightment is one thing. Using that information and interferring to bent the course of things in your own interrest is anotherr. There is no clear line between the two and it is easily crossed. So assuming it's only a matter of spying is in my opinon a little bit naïve. That's also the reason why spying people is something to worry. Who controls what is done with the inormation ? How could one defend against abuse of a state? This will be like drones killing civilians ! No one cares. Until it's your turn, and no body will care.

oellegaard 13y ago

I honestly think the EU should make it clear that our friendship with the US cannot be uphold with serious breaches such as this one. Its your good friend spying on your and your wife having sex, not because he needs to, but because he wants to know everything. With countries or persons, you can only be true friends if you trust that you are told what you need to know, you shouldn't have to acquire information yourself.

_k 13y ago
Meanwhile the EU thinks it's a good idea to negotiate a new EU - US trade agreement. And it's a good idea, but not when one side is spying on the other. They should place it on hold.
- antocv 13y ago
  EU is also spying on US, it just hasnt turned into a scandal yet. Its not out of malice or intent to hurt the other party, its just pure power, information is power. Who knows most at the negotiating table wins.
  - black4eternity 13y ago
    Then it's not a negotiation between friends interested in mutual growth. I agree information is power. But there are limits to power. Trust also matters.
  - hwh 13y ago
    "The EU" is probably not spying, it simply doesn't have institutions to do so. The EU lacks "federal" agencies in the security service sector, that's still a matter of the EU member nations with cooperation only on a bureaucracy level.
  - kalms 13y ago
    Citation? And no, France is not "EU".
dinkumthinkum 13y ago