19 ms·

Google drops XMPP support

90 points by john_w_t_b 13y ago

patrickaljord 13y ago
Google still support XMPP, it's just that it's not federated (edit: according to 0x006A, it still is so they may just be blocking Microsoft). It's been federated for years though but what was the effect of that? Has Microsoft made MSN messenger interoperable, have they done so with Skype? Have Yahoo? How about Facebook? Thing is, as Larry said, they support open messaging but why should they do so with companies that don't reciprocate? Last week, Microsoft decided to take advantage of gtalk federated XMPP to make it usable inside Outlook, this is awesome. However, did they make skype usable inside of gmail? No. So Microsoft is happy to use google's messaging federated openness but refuses to share their messaging with Google which gives Microsoft an unfair advantage. As Larry said, they support openness but not to the point of shooting themselves in the foot by giving Microsoft a commercial advantage by integrating gtalk in Outlook while there's no way for Google to do so with Microsoft's Skype. I think this is pretty fair from Google to defend themselves. And it really takes nerves from Microsoft for complaining about someone blocking them on their messaging network when they have been the king of blocking messaging network with MSN and Skype. Come on.
- 0x006A 13y ago
  i keep reading that its not federated and yet i am still chatting with people on gmail via xmpp via my own xmpp server.
  - mike-cardwell 13y ago
    For now
  - mdwrigh2 13y ago
    Until they upgrade to hangouts from GTalk, federation will continue to work.
- Nux 13y ago
  It's not about Yahoo and other big players. The edge GTalk had was it was capable of talking to my server and to my friends' servers. Now that edge is gone, but it's really not needed any more, they have enough mass to not care.
  - patrickaljord 13y ago
    This is exactly about Skype, Yahoo and others. Only a handful geeks and sysadmins use Gtalk as an XMPP relay to talk to. Losing these few edge cases has no impact at all on Google, however, MS and Yahoo being able to have an unfair advantage does have impact on Google (and by unfair advantage, I mean MS and Yahoo being able to talk to Gtalk but Gtalk not being able to talk to Skype and Yahoo Messenger).
- Svip 13y ago
  I don't find the argument that 'if the other guys are jerks, then I too can be a jerk' to be an argument that makes me see anyone in a more favourable light. I thought Google wanted to avoid being Microsoft and Apple, with their unofficial motto, 'don't be evil'. I prefer it when someone showcases their willingness to be 'the nicer guy' by opening up while the others are closing down. Like allowing to export your GMail contacts, while Facebook won't go the other way around. I always find Microsoft complaining to be hypocritical, they are usually committing a similar overreach towards a competitor themselves. But still, where are the 'good guys'? I know, that would be naïve, this is business.
  - rbanffy 13y ago
    > I don't find the argument that 'if the other guys are jerks, then I too can be a jerk' to be an argument that makes me see anyone in a more favourable light. Why would Google want to invest resources on giving Microsoft an unfair advantage over themselves? Microsoft being jerks is the rule since that open letter Bill Gates sent to the Homebrew Computer Club. In other words, why would you invite a guest that is known to steal stuff and not flush toilets into your home?
    - reneky 13y ago
      > Why would Google want to invest resources on giving Microsoft an unfair advantage over themselves? Because it's good for the users.
      - chris_wot 13y ago
        It's not good for users to allow Microsoft to get away with vendor lock-in. This may force Microsoft's hand. That's good for users.
    - clockwerx 13y ago
      So you can have them steal the 'i am with stupid' branded clothing; with the giant arrow to the thief? microsoft permitting mitm/google ads in their product ftw
  - 13y ago
- davexunit 13y ago
  Will they only be blocking Microsoft, or will they shut off federation completely? I have an account on the FSF's XMPP server and I can talk to people on gtalk. If they are shutting off federation completely, then they are just making a walled garden for themselves and using the Microsoft situation as an excuse.
josteink 13y ago
The irony of this coming from Microsoft, a company which has never had a single mainstream XMPP-based product and owner of Skype, which has sent Cease and Desist letters to people creating Skype-XMPP bridges, is not lost on me. That said, if Google keeps locking down all their former open products/platforms, I will be fleeing ship. If Hangouts (which replaces Gtalk) drops XMPP support, I see no reason to keep using it.
- fdr_cs 13y ago
  The sad part is that you will, and some more people will to, but, the mass, will not, because they don't care. If they did, they would not accept ms closed format instead of odt, they would not accept facebook, and would w3c would not create drm extensions as 'open standars' . That's what's sad.
  - blablabla123 13y ago
    > the mass, will not, because they don't care. They don't know. Many of those people use multiple instant messengers in parallel, some even use messenger that speak multiple protocols. If these people knew they could interoperate all those, they'd find it awesome. BTW, drm has nothing to do with interoperation. At least nothing negative, because it enables proprietary content to be delivered in a platform-neutral fashion. Thus killing one more reason to use/create proprietary browser plugins.
gnoway 13y ago
This kind of looks like a fight Google was never going to win. They either continue doing what they were doing and allow MS to take competitive advantage of their openness, or they shut the door and MS wins again because Google is suddenly evil. Maybe I am misunderstanding what happened here, but right now this looks like a perfect example of "see, this is why we can't have nice things," played out in the real world.
blablabla123 13y ago
So Google is becoming the new Microsoft and vice versa...
jkhanlar 13y ago
"Avaya and many others will also loose interoperability" as opposed to tighten interoperability.
xor-ed-wolf 13y ago
One more proof that any good organization becomes money-hungry zombie when reaches certain size.
Nux 13y ago
Jump ship, guys! SMTP is next!
- Derbasti 13y ago
  I jumped a long time ago. But to this day, there is no web app comparable to GMail or GCal.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Desktop...
  - fakeer 13y ago
    Looks like an open market without hardly a player other than Google and the elk. There's a market specially for paying customers.
    - nmjenkins 13y ago
      Have you looked at fastmail.fm? We do paid email right. And we have a web interface that's faster, slicker and more powerful than GMail. Disclaimer: I (obviously) work for FastMail. But still, you should check it out. :)
      - fakeer 13y ago
        I've a free account - so I open it once in a while. Had enquired some time ago and figured you guys don't host email, rather forward or sth[1]. Still that's the case? I have also read somewhere that you provide XMPP (or not?) but there's nothing like chat history[2]. Status - etc? I'm not very much familar with XMPP as in what it supports and what not. Why does it want to me to have a FastMail email address where as all I am going to have is a user-name@my-domain.com. That's an extra Email ID to take care of or it's useless anyway if I'm not supposed to use it other than logging in, or is it[1]^. Looks like this is available in Family and Business account. That's odd. What's the point? Can you please provide a full side by comparison of Family - Biz - Enhanced - Premier? Maximum attachment size is sth that ought to be at least 100MB (or 200MB in today's Internet) but that can be tolerated with Dropbox, CloudApp and all around. One good thing is, I can use many domains in same account for just one price, this very attractive if I've read it right and seems you are a webhost too. Well, too many things. I'm tempted but it doesn't seem to be a replacement for my mail-task-calendar-IM workflow which is very integrated and crucial. Any words on that? And also, regarding [1]^, so you guys are nor email hosts as in email hosts now - just to confirm? Glad to talk to someone directly at FM and not inside a support ticket. [2] - saved as email, covered.

90 points by john_w_t_b 13y ago

Google still support XMPP, it's just that it's not federated (edit: according to 0x006A, it still is so they may just be blocking Microsoft). It's been federated for years though but what was the effect of that? Has Microsoft made MSN messenger interoperable, have they done so with Skype? Have Yahoo? How about Facebook? Thing is, as Larry said, they support open messaging but why should they do so with companies that don't reciprocate? Last week, Microsoft decided to take advantage of gtalk federated XMPP to make it usable inside Outlook, this is awesome. However, did they make skype usable inside of gmail? No. So Microsoft is happy to use google's messaging federated openness but refuses to share their messaging with Google which gives Microsoft an unfair advantage. As Larry said, they support openness but not to the point of shooting themselves in the foot by giving Microsoft a commercial advantage by integrating gtalk in Outlook while there's no way for Google to do so with Microsoft's Skype. I think this is pretty fair from Google to defend themselves. And it really takes nerves from Microsoft for complaining about someone blocking them on their messaging network when they have been the king of blocking messaging network with MSN and Skype. Come on.

0x006A 13y ago
i keep reading that its not federated and yet i am still chatting with people on gmail via xmpp via my own xmpp server.
- mike-cardwell 13y ago
  For now
- mdwrigh2 13y ago
  Until they upgrade to hangouts from GTalk, federation will continue to work.
Nux 13y ago
It's not about Yahoo and other big players. The edge GTalk had was it was capable of talking to my server and to my friends' servers. Now that edge is gone, but it's really not needed any more, they have enough mass to not care.
- patrickaljord 13y ago
  This is exactly about Skype, Yahoo and others. Only a handful geeks and sysadmins use Gtalk as an XMPP relay to talk to. Losing these few edge cases has no impact at all on Google, however, MS and Yahoo being able to have an unfair advantage does have impact on Google (and by unfair advantage, I mean MS and Yahoo being able to talk to Gtalk but Gtalk not being able to talk to Skype and Yahoo Messenger).
Svip 13y ago
I don't find the argument that 'if the other guys are jerks, then I too can be a jerk' to be an argument that makes me see anyone in a more favourable light. I thought Google wanted to avoid being Microsoft and Apple, with their unofficial motto, 'don't be evil'. I prefer it when someone showcases their willingness to be 'the nicer guy' by opening up while the others are closing down. Like allowing to export your GMail contacts, while Facebook won't go the other way around. I always find Microsoft complaining to be hypocritical, they are usually committing a similar overreach towards a competitor themselves. But still, where are the 'good guys'? I know, that would be naïve, this is business.
- rbanffy 13y ago
  > I don't find the argument that 'if the other guys are jerks, then I too can be a jerk' to be an argument that makes me see anyone in a more favourable light. Why would Google want to invest resources on giving Microsoft an unfair advantage over themselves? Microsoft being jerks is the rule since that open letter Bill Gates sent to the Homebrew Computer Club. In other words, why would you invite a guest that is known to steal stuff and not flush toilets into your home?
  - reneky 13y ago
    > Why would Google want to invest resources on giving Microsoft an unfair advantage over themselves? Because it's good for the users.
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      It's not good for users to allow Microsoft to get away with vendor lock-in. This may force Microsoft's hand. That's good for users.
  - clockwerx 13y ago
    So you can have them steal the 'i am with stupid' branded clothing; with the giant arrow to the thief? microsoft permitting mitm/google ads in their product ftw
- 13y ago
davexunit 13y ago
Will they only be blocking Microsoft, or will they shut off federation completely? I have an account on the FSF's XMPP server and I can talk to people on gtalk. If they are shutting off federation completely, then they are just making a walled garden for themselves and using the Microsoft situation as an excuse.

josteink 13y ago

The irony of this coming from Microsoft, a company which has never had a single mainstream XMPP-based product and owner of Skype, which has sent Cease and Desist letters to people creating Skype-XMPP bridges, is not lost on me. That said, if Google keeps locking down all their former open products/platforms, I will be fleeing ship. If Hangouts (which replaces Gtalk) drops XMPP support, I see no reason to keep using it.

fdr_cs 13y ago
The sad part is that you will, and some more people will to, but, the mass, will not, because they don't care. If they did, they would not accept ms closed format instead of odt, they would not accept facebook, and would w3c would not create drm extensions as 'open standars' . That's what's sad.
- blablabla123 13y ago
  > the mass, will not, because they don't care. They don't know. Many of those people use multiple instant messengers in parallel, some even use messenger that speak multiple protocols. If these people knew they could interoperate all those, they'd find it awesome. BTW, drm has nothing to do with interoperation. At least nothing negative, because it enables proprietary content to be delivered in a platform-neutral fashion. Thus killing one more reason to use/create proprietary browser plugins.

gnoway 13y ago

This kind of looks like a fight Google was never going to win. They either continue doing what they were doing and allow MS to take competitive advantage of their openness, or they shut the door and MS wins again because Google is suddenly evil. Maybe I am misunderstanding what happened here, but right now this looks like a perfect example of "see, this is why we can't have nice things," played out in the real world.

blablabla123 13y ago

So Google is becoming the new Microsoft and vice versa...

jkhanlar 13y ago

"Avaya and many others will also loose interoperability" as opposed to tighten interoperability.

xor-ed-wolf 13y ago

One more proof that any good organization becomes money-hungry zombie when reaches certain size.

Nux 13y ago

Jump ship, guys! SMTP is next!

Derbasti 13y ago
I jumped a long time ago. But to this day, there is no web app comparable to GMail or GCal.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Desktop...
- fakeer 13y ago
  Looks like an open market without hardly a player other than Google and the elk. There's a market specially for paying customers.
  - nmjenkins 13y ago
    Have you looked at fastmail.fm? We do paid email right. And we have a web interface that's faster, slicker and more powerful than GMail. Disclaimer: I (obviously) work for FastMail. But still, you should check it out. :)
    - fakeer 13y ago
      I've a free account - so I open it once in a while. Had enquired some time ago and figured you guys don't host email, rather forward or sth[1]. Still that's the case? I have also read somewhere that you provide XMPP (or not?) but there's nothing like chat history[2]. Status - etc? I'm not very much familar with XMPP as in what it supports and what not. Why does it want to me to have a FastMail email address where as all I am going to have is a user-name@my-domain.com. That's an extra Email ID to take care of or it's useless anyway if I'm not supposed to use it other than logging in, or is it[1]^. Looks like this is available in Family and Business account. That's odd. What's the point? Can you please provide a full side by comparison of Family - Biz - Enhanced - Premier? Maximum attachment size is sth that ought to be at least 100MB (or 200MB in today's Internet) but that can be tolerated with Dropbox, CloudApp and all around. One good thing is, I can use many domains in same account for just one price, this very attractive if I've read it right and seems you are a webhost too. Well, too many things. I'm tempted but it doesn't seem to be a replacement for my mail-task-calendar-IM workflow which is very integrated and crucial. Any words on that? And also, regarding [1]^, so you guys are nor email hosts as in email hosts now - just to confirm? Glad to talk to someone directly at FM and not inside a support ticket. [2] - saved as email, covered.