10 ms·

Tesla sales 'misleading' says Audi blog post

38 points by arepb 13y ago

sixQuarks 13y ago
They're grasping at straws
byoung2 13y ago
The fact that Audi had to write this says that they feel threatened. And while Tesla does only sell one model at a time, they are able to produce cheaper models and sell more of them. As for the question posed by USA Today: There are questions, too, about whether it can keep its order books full, or whether the number of people who crave electric cars is limited. With the new financing offer, a Tesla is within reach for many people, but I think we'll see a tipping point once they can get below $50k.
- beat 13y ago
  Shorter Audi: Tesla may be outselling us at our flagship range, but since they don't sell cars that cost half as much, we're better, and we're not going to talk about what happens when they start selling cars that cost half as much...
- schiffern 13y ago
  I love the false dichotomy in that USA Today quote.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  > And while Tesla does only sell one model at a time, they are able to produce cheaper models and sell more of them. Never thought about it till now, but that is reminiscent of Apple's product strategy. It'll be interesting to see if it remains this way in the future even after Tesla grows significantly.
- tokenadult 13y ago
  The fact that Audi had to write this says that they feel threatened. That's the way I have felt about several of Elon Musk's responses to the press. It remains to be seen what consumers will do with their hard-earned money to bring about sustained profit for which automobile manufacturer.
sabat 13y ago
There are hyped figures floating around, yes, but the Tesla story is quite remarkable.
tptacek 13y ago
They're right, of course, but I'm not sure this is a great marketing move, because it dignifies the metric Tesla has chosen as their strongest. The fact that Tesla can even mount an argument that they're in a horse race with Audi, let alone outselling them, is a gigantic coup for a car company that's just a few years old.
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  This was what I was thinking, which basically said this was a big mistake on Audi's part. Rather than instill doubt in me that Tesla is an untested company I came away feeling better about them as an actual competitor to the likes of Audi. Time will tell of course.
- jerf 13y ago
  Yes. While I really hate the ignore/laugh/fight/win trope, this was Audi putting Tesla firmly in the fight slot, rather ahead of schedule.
rosser 13y ago
Wow, defensive. And I say that as a certified Audi fanboy (I'm on my 2nd S4...)
- wglb 13y ago
  No S5 for you?
smackfu 13y ago
The CNN headline is definitely misleading: “Tesla sales beating Mercedes, BMW and Audi.” No one would guess they are talking about "per model sales" vs "per manufacturer sales", since they are naming manufacturers. It's just linkbait. Tesla really is the new Apple!
- TwoBit 13y ago
  I like Tesla, but another consideration is that this is a brand new model splash. The 2014 results numbers will be more telling, given that the newness will have worn off a little.
- notatoad 13y ago
  "No one would guess" really? because my first assumption was that they were comparing sales of Tesla's only model to sales of Mercedes, BMW, and Audi's equivalent models. that is, comparing the sales of one high-end luxury car with the sales of other high-end luxury cars. it seems blindingly obvious that the Model S isn't selling more units than Mercedes' entire range.
  - jedmeyers 13y ago
    But they did not say "Model S vs A8", they had said "Tesla vs Audi" - which does not mean "Model S vs A8".
    - notatoad 13y ago
      they actually did say it. there was a whole article, including a clearly labeled graph, underneath that headline. They didn't say it in the headline, but that's the reason articles exists instead of just headlines - sometimes they have stuff in them. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/tesla-sales-bmw-mercedes-audi/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/tesla-sales-bmw-merced...
      - jedmeyers 13y ago
        So because the article exists it is now OK to lie in the headlines?
beat 13y ago
Now here's an interesting question, or maybe some interrelated questions. First, will Tesla be able to manufacture profitably in the sub-$50k range (competing with the Audi/BMW/MB low end), with a car that is range-comparable to the S? In other words, can they build a genuinely useful electric drivetrain for about the same price as an internal combustion drivetrain? Next, as they start spinning up long-term reliability figures (real people driving real Teslas in real conditions for the 100k+ miles we expect today), will costs remain comparable? Third, how long will it take Audi/BMW/Lexus/etc to develop fully electric cars of their own that are performance-comparable and compatible with whatever public charging systems start to develop?
- tomkarlo 13y ago
  Or, how long until one of them buys Tesla and combines its expertise with their existing infrastructure for mass production?
  - WhoIsSatoshi 13y ago
    Being acquired would definately be a hindrance with the goal of bringing an affordable EV to the masses. I don't think it's about the money from there on.
  - revelation 13y ago
    The NUMMI factory is designed for an output of 300000 cars per year. And thats the number for a GM and Toyota venture producing very complex gasoline cars, not Tesla using robots to produce relatively simple electric cars.
  - r00fus 13y ago
    I'm pretty smart finance folks have learned from GOOG stock structuring and the like to prevent LBOs/corporate takeover threats. I'm reasonably sure some of them work for Tesla.
    - tomkarlo 13y ago
      Why would you assume it would be hostile? Ultimately either someone's going to buy Tesla, or Tesla's going to buy a legacy automaker that's in trouble. Setting aside dealership issues in the US, it doesn't make sense to rebuild an entire worldwide distribution system from scratch when the innovation is the car, primarily. Either that, or license the Tesla tech to a major car manufacturer and let them serve the downmarket while protecting the Tesla brand as high-end and innovative. I don't think Tesla wants to become Honda.
jagermo 13y ago
Its interesting to see how they try to cover it up. Especially BMW has researched alternative fuels, mainly hydrogen, but stopped its test fleet in 2009 [0]. Only one super expensive image car, a BMW 7, remains [1]. Audi and VW also dabbled in alternative energies, but none of them really got into it. Hopefully, Tesla can breath some new live into this area. We live in the 21st century, I demand vehicles fueled by anything other than oil. [0] http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/alternative-antriebe-bmw-stellt-wasserstoff-testflotte-ein-a-665549.html http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/alternative-antriebe-bmw-... (german, Google Translate here: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fauto%2Faktuell%2Falternative-antriebe-bmw-stellt-wasserstoff-testflotte-ein-a-665549.html http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=...) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
- foobarqux 13y ago
  > We live in the 21st century, I demand vehicles fueled by anything other than oil. Why? (Of course there are many valid reasons, just want to get an idea of which ones people are interested in.)
  - byoung2 13y ago
    I am a fan of electric cars because electricity is a buffer against volatile (no pun intended) gas prices. A gallon of gas cost $1.20 just a decade ago, compared to $4 today, a jump of over 200%, compared to a maybe 20% increase in electricity costs. As various fuel sources experience price fluctuations, it will be easier to change the mix of power plants than to change which fuel cars use.
- ah- 13y ago
  BMW bets heavily on electric cars and plans to launch their first production car, the i3 in a few months.
schiffern 13y ago
Audi's blog post said the headline was misleading, not "Tesla sales". Could someone edit HN's headline?
marvin 13y ago
Wow, I can't believe Audi is actually scared of Tesla and practically admits it on their blog...
michaelfeathers 13y ago
For kicks, re-read the article as something written 4+ years ago substituting "Apple" for "Tesla" and any other cellphone manufacturer for "Audi." “Tesla has to show it can be consistently profitable with a single product that is priced so high that most buyers can’t afford it,” Indeed.
- adestefan 13y ago
  They are in no way comparable. I make a pretty damn good living and can easily afford a $400-$500 phone, but there is no way I'll be buying a $60,000 car from either Tesla or Audi.
  - smackfu 13y ago
    It's one of the fascinating things about smart phones: the top of the line model is easily accessible to most middle-class people, and the rich can't really get anything better.
  - simonh 13y ago
    There are people who do buy $60k cars. It's a market that actually exists, just as there was a market for $500+ phones before the iPhone, which at it's introduction actually wasn't the most expensive phone on the market. Just because you're not part of the market for a car in that range is no more relevant than the fact there are plenty of people who would, or could never pay $500+ for a phone is to the success of Apple.
    - ianstormtaylor 13y ago
      Another way to think about it is that if someone told me I would be paying $500 for a phone before the iPhone came out I probably would have laughed at them. In fact, before the iPhone I don't think anyone in my family ever bought a phone that was more expensive than the 1 cent models that came with contracts. Now we buy the $200 models that come with contracts.
pvnick 13y ago
Well at this point I would much rather own a Tesla car than an Audi car so suck it Audi. Then again it's hard to envision making those kinds of purchasing decisions with the depressing state of my bank account.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
drawkbox 13y ago
This is the old guard problem. You need a new company to come along once in a while and push through a new industry or new industry focus with real effort. Current car companies, to protect their current products, they didn't put the full force behind electric, that is why they saw less demand and their looks and cars weren't pretty. Audi could benefit if they would have had the same focus and get news that tips in their favor like Tesla, people rooting for them. It costs money to start new product lines, eventually they won't be as expensive when the technology is refined and then other car companies will be behind. It wouldn't be surprising to me if Tesla was later the tech that helps other car companies succeed. If Tesla does succeed the others will be caught on their heels. This is why older companies can't innovate as much, protecting the main source/bottom line. The only company that has really attacked their own product lines with new innovative products is Apple with the iPad (which directly hit their other models, but also hit their competitors bottom line harder). Other companies follow or start too late when they are comfy on their big bottom line cushion. All that money Audi has and they are essentially losing the PR battle. Maybe make an investment in Tesla or compete with it then, stop crying that they'll get more focus. People want electric cars to succeed and will be more forgiving when it is done right. Audi your PR just backfired, you look threatened.
noonespecial 13y ago
Wow. Already 3/4 of the way down the "first they ignore you..." continuum. Go Tesla.
xpose2000 13y ago
I thought it was implied in the original article that Tesla was beating the other car makers for their specific high-end models only. It's pretty obvious that Tesla cannot beat Mercedes, BMW, and Audi in ALL models. Still, its funny to see a car company write a blog post like this. They are all scurrying about trying to make sure Tesla can't operate in all states because they want to sell directly instead of through dealerships. The car industry is being disrupted.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. There are a lot of interesting aspects to electric-only cars, especially from a manufacturing aspect. There are lots of parts that you just don't need in an electric car, which can lead to efficiencies of mass production. Now that electric cars are no longer either improbably futuristic nor merely the butt of jokes a lot of people are finding it easier to have an electric car be a part of their lives, and that's a pretty big deal. I don't know how things will go, but it'll be nice to get a lot more R&D into electric vehicles for a while.

38 points by arepb 13y ago

They're grasping at straws

The fact that Audi had to write this says that they feel threatened. And while Tesla does only sell one model at a time, they are able to produce cheaper models and sell more of them. As for the question posed by USA Today: There are questions, too, about whether it can keep its order books full, or whether the number of people who crave electric cars is limited. With the new financing offer, a Tesla is within reach for many people, but I think we'll see a tipping point once they can get below $50k.

beat 13y ago
Shorter Audi: Tesla may be outselling us at our flagship range, but since they don't sell cars that cost half as much, we're better, and we're not going to talk about what happens when they start selling cars that cost half as much...
schiffern 13y ago
I love the false dichotomy in that USA Today quote.
hkmurakami 13y ago
> And while Tesla does only sell one model at a time, they are able to produce cheaper models and sell more of them. Never thought about it till now, but that is reminiscent of Apple's product strategy. It'll be interesting to see if it remains this way in the future even after Tesla grows significantly.
tokenadult 13y ago
The fact that Audi had to write this says that they feel threatened. That's the way I have felt about several of Elon Musk's responses to the press. It remains to be seen what consumers will do with their hard-earned money to bring about sustained profit for which automobile manufacturer.

sabat 13y ago

There are hyped figures floating around, yes, but the Tesla story is quite remarkable.

tptacek 13y ago

They're right, of course, but I'm not sure this is a great marketing move, because it dignifies the metric Tesla has chosen as their strongest. The fact that Tesla can even mount an argument that they're in a horse race with Audi, let alone outselling them, is a gigantic coup for a car company that's just a few years old.

ChuckMcM 13y ago
This was what I was thinking, which basically said this was a big mistake on Audi's part. Rather than instill doubt in me that Tesla is an untested company I came away feeling better about them as an actual competitor to the likes of Audi. Time will tell of course.
jerf 13y ago
Yes. While I really hate the ignore/laugh/fight/win trope, this was Audi putting Tesla firmly in the fight slot, rather ahead of schedule.

rosser 13y ago

Wow, defensive. And I say that as a certified Audi fanboy (I'm on my 2nd S4...)

wglb 13y ago
No S5 for you?

smackfu 13y ago

The CNN headline is definitely misleading: “Tesla sales beating Mercedes, BMW and Audi.” No one would guess they are talking about "per model sales" vs "per manufacturer sales", since they are naming manufacturers. It's just linkbait. Tesla really is the new Apple!

TwoBit 13y ago
I like Tesla, but another consideration is that this is a brand new model splash. The 2014 results numbers will be more telling, given that the newness will have worn off a little.
notatoad 13y ago
"No one would guess" really? because my first assumption was that they were comparing sales of Tesla's only model to sales of Mercedes, BMW, and Audi's equivalent models. that is, comparing the sales of one high-end luxury car with the sales of other high-end luxury cars. it seems blindingly obvious that the Model S isn't selling more units than Mercedes' entire range.
- jedmeyers 13y ago
  But they did not say "Model S vs A8", they had said "Tesla vs Audi" - which does not mean "Model S vs A8".
  - notatoad 13y ago
    they actually did say it. there was a whole article, including a clearly labeled graph, underneath that headline. They didn't say it in the headline, but that's the reason articles exists instead of just headlines - sometimes they have stuff in them. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/tesla-sales-bmw-mercedes-audi/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/tesla-sales-bmw-merced...
    - jedmeyers 13y ago
      So because the article exists it is now OK to lie in the headlines?

beat 13y ago

Now here's an interesting question, or maybe some interrelated questions. First, will Tesla be able to manufacture profitably in the sub-$50k range (competing with the Audi/BMW/MB low end), with a car that is range-comparable to the S? In other words, can they build a genuinely useful electric drivetrain for about the same price as an internal combustion drivetrain? Next, as they start spinning up long-term reliability figures (real people driving real Teslas in real conditions for the 100k+ miles we expect today), will costs remain comparable? Third, how long will it take Audi/BMW/Lexus/etc to develop fully electric cars of their own that are performance-comparable and compatible with whatever public charging systems start to develop?

tomkarlo 13y ago
Or, how long until one of them buys Tesla and combines its expertise with their existing infrastructure for mass production?
- WhoIsSatoshi 13y ago
  Being acquired would definately be a hindrance with the goal of bringing an affordable EV to the masses. I don't think it's about the money from there on.
- revelation 13y ago
  The NUMMI factory is designed for an output of 300000 cars per year. And thats the number for a GM and Toyota venture producing very complex gasoline cars, not Tesla using robots to produce relatively simple electric cars.
- r00fus 13y ago
  I'm pretty smart finance folks have learned from GOOG stock structuring and the like to prevent LBOs/corporate takeover threats. I'm reasonably sure some of them work for Tesla.
  - tomkarlo 13y ago
    Why would you assume it would be hostile? Ultimately either someone's going to buy Tesla, or Tesla's going to buy a legacy automaker that's in trouble. Setting aside dealership issues in the US, it doesn't make sense to rebuild an entire worldwide distribution system from scratch when the innovation is the car, primarily. Either that, or license the Tesla tech to a major car manufacturer and let them serve the downmarket while protecting the Tesla brand as high-end and innovative. I don't think Tesla wants to become Honda.

jagermo 13y ago

Its interesting to see how they try to cover it up. Especially BMW has researched alternative fuels, mainly hydrogen, but stopped its test fleet in 2009 [0]. Only one super expensive image car, a BMW 7, remains [1]. Audi and VW also dabbled in alternative energies, but none of them really got into it. Hopefully, Tesla can breath some new live into this area. We live in the 21st century, I demand vehicles fueled by anything other than oil. [0] http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/alternative-antriebe-bmw-stellt-wasserstoff-testflotte-ein-a-665549.html http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/alternative-antriebe-bmw-... (german, Google Translate here: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fauto%2Faktuell%2Falternative-antriebe-bmw-stellt-wasserstoff-testflotte-ein-a-665549.html http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=...) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

foobarqux 13y ago
> We live in the 21st century, I demand vehicles fueled by anything other than oil. Why? (Of course there are many valid reasons, just want to get an idea of which ones people are interested in.)
- byoung2 13y ago
  I am a fan of electric cars because electricity is a buffer against volatile (no pun intended) gas prices. A gallon of gas cost $1.20 just a decade ago, compared to $4 today, a jump of over 200%, compared to a maybe 20% increase in electricity costs. As various fuel sources experience price fluctuations, it will be easier to change the mix of power plants than to change which fuel cars use.
ah- 13y ago
BMW bets heavily on electric cars and plans to launch their first production car, the i3 in a few months.

schiffern 13y ago

Audi's blog post said the headline was misleading, not "Tesla sales". Could someone edit HN's headline?

marvin 13y ago

Wow, I can't believe Audi is actually scared of Tesla and practically admits it on their blog...

michaelfeathers 13y ago

For kicks, re-read the article as something written 4+ years ago substituting "Apple" for "Tesla" and any other cellphone manufacturer for "Audi." “Tesla has to show it can be consistently profitable with a single product that is priced so high that most buyers can’t afford it,” Indeed.

adestefan 13y ago
They are in no way comparable. I make a pretty damn good living and can easily afford a $400-$500 phone, but there is no way I'll be buying a $60,000 car from either Tesla or Audi.
- smackfu 13y ago
  It's one of the fascinating things about smart phones: the top of the line model is easily accessible to most middle-class people, and the rich can't really get anything better.
- simonh 13y ago
  There are people who do buy $60k cars. It's a market that actually exists, just as there was a market for $500+ phones before the iPhone, which at it's introduction actually wasn't the most expensive phone on the market. Just because you're not part of the market for a car in that range is no more relevant than the fact there are plenty of people who would, or could never pay $500+ for a phone is to the success of Apple.
  - ianstormtaylor 13y ago
    Another way to think about it is that if someone told me I would be paying $500 for a phone before the iPhone came out I probably would have laughed at them. In fact, before the iPhone I don't think anyone in my family ever bought a phone that was more expensive than the 1 cent models that came with contracts. Now we buy the $200 models that come with contracts.

pvnick 13y ago

Well at this point I would much rather own a Tesla car than an Audi car so suck it Audi. Then again it's hard to envision making those kinds of purchasing decisions with the depressing state of my bank account.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

drawkbox 13y ago

This is the old guard problem. You need a new company to come along once in a while and push through a new industry or new industry focus with real effort. Current car companies, to protect their current products, they didn't put the full force behind electric, that is why they saw less demand and their looks and cars weren't pretty. Audi could benefit if they would have had the same focus and get news that tips in their favor like Tesla, people rooting for them. It costs money to start new product lines, eventually they won't be as expensive when the technology is refined and then other car companies will be behind. It wouldn't be surprising to me if Tesla was later the tech that helps other car companies succeed. If Tesla does succeed the others will be caught on their heels. This is why older companies can't innovate as much, protecting the main source/bottom line. The only company that has really attacked their own product lines with new innovative products is Apple with the iPad (which directly hit their other models, but also hit their competitors bottom line harder). Other companies follow or start too late when they are comfy on their big bottom line cushion. All that money Audi has and they are essentially losing the PR battle. Maybe make an investment in Tesla or compete with it then, stop crying that they'll get more focus. People want electric cars to succeed and will be more forgiving when it is done right. Audi your PR just backfired, you look threatened.

noonespecial 13y ago

Wow. Already 3/4 of the way down the "first they ignore you..." continuum. Go Tesla.

xpose2000 13y ago

I thought it was implied in the original article that Tesla was beating the other car makers for their specific high-end models only. It's pretty obvious that Tesla cannot beat Mercedes, BMW, and Audi in ALL models. Still, its funny to see a car company write a blog post like this. They are all scurrying about trying to make sure Tesla can't operate in all states because they want to sell directly instead of through dealerships. The car industry is being disrupted.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. There are a lot of interesting aspects to electric-only cars, especially from a manufacturing aspect. There are lots of parts that you just don't need in an electric car, which can lead to efficiencies of mass production. Now that electric cars are no longer either improbably futuristic nor merely the butt of jokes a lot of people are finding it easier to have an electric car be a part of their lives, and that's a pretty big deal. I don't know how things will go, but it'll be nice to get a lot more R&D into electric vehicles for a while.