6 ms·

We need to free up Bosch systems. They use lots of open source libs, but they close the whole chain (like spare batteries) so that you cannot plug external batt

by zoobab 3d ago

We need to free up Bosch systems. They use lots of open source libs, but they close the whole chain (like spare batteries) so that you cannot plug external batteries from other suppliers.

RealityVoid 3d ago
I took a look into the batteries for the ebike systems, they have some sort of AES based pairing and the chips are read protected. You probably can dump the firmware from the update packages for the things. (maybe some hw exploitation stuff as well?) I did a thing where I put their battery controller on an after market battery with a divisor and it started and paired, but for some reason blew up afterwards. I now realize it would be easier to write the whole thing wholesale, but.. uhh, it's no small feat, and I have a job soooo... Bosch should open their shit, it might save them, because it seems the chinese with Avinox will eat their dinner in a couple of years. They seem to be pretty litigious, they went after a forum that documented initiatives to reverse (well, they also hosted pirated diagnostics sw but.. yeah)
surajrmal 3d ago
Having been on the flip side of this divide in the past, there really are a lot of potential safety and reliability problems when using random third party versions of components. While I'm sure there are strong financial incentives to constrain supply, there are also some other strong reasons as well. Also it's very expensive to actually make an ecosystem compared to a close one. The best way to incentivize manufacturers to do it is by creating a competing product that is open and having that differentiating feature drive sales away. That's generally the approach that works best.
- stymaar 3d ago
  > there really are a lot of potential safety and reliability problems when using random third party versions of components. What are you talking about? If a seller sells you random junk that causes safety issue, they are liable of the damage like the OEM would if their product was bad. Then, if the seller is in a jurisdiction where you can't hope to sue, then it's either your problem for picking this random seller on their website, or we should make it Amazon's problem to feature this kind of sellers in the first place. Surely the biggest retailer on the planet could afford vetting businesses selling on its platform to protect consumers' safety. In any case, the fact that Bosch's ecosystem is closed offers no additional protection whatsoever, as shady sellers already sell counterfeit components (that may or may not work at all).
  - tverbeure 3d ago
    The closed system doesn’t (only) prevent counterfeit systems, it also prevents someone from maliciously releasing a mod that could make the motor accelerate instead of break at some random time. It’d be negligent for anyone to release a product like this without locking down the FW.
  - Aurornis 3d ago
    > What are you talking about? > If a seller sells you random junk that causes safety issue, they are liable of the damage like the OEM would if their product was bad. No, the GP comment is right. I’ve worked on products where a lot of users did mods and used third party accessories. Customers don’t care who, how, or why their product broke. They want to make noise and try to get a warranty fix for it. Customers would try to mod their devices, break it in the process, and then spend weeks trying to drag us on social media until we relented and shipped them a new one for free. They’re not going to be pursuing damages against the Aliexpress vendor who sold them a flawed battery pack, nor the Amazon seller called WOBALUBAFY that has already disappeared, nor the YouTuber who hastily showed them how to solder some things together. They always try to hide the evidence and claim the product failed by itself because the big American company has the deep pockets and the ability to send them free stuff to avoid bad PR.
amelius 3d ago
Like Apple who used BSD but then closed the whole chain?
rfgplk 3d ago
Pretty much anything hardware based is like this. Everything is 100% closed source and bolted down such that inspecting it is outright impossible without extensive reverse engineering.
- hn_submit 3d ago
  I believe one of the feasibilities we have with electric locomotion is the standardization of components: electric motors, motor controllers, batteries and battery chargers. These being interchangeable will lead to lower costs through competition and more innovation. It's disappointing that manufacturers are moving the other way to enable vendor lock-in. But only one manufacturer has to jump the fence and the others will be left behind.
  - awakeasleep 3d ago
    I’m suspicious of this vision because for example, with battery packs, cells with compatible voltage and size have vastly different characteristics. Those characteristics, like safe discharge rate, capacity, projected cycle count, are all things that manufactures exaggerate or get wrong. I don’t think there’s any way that consumers can ever be informed enough to have an efficient market in products such as those

by zoobab 3d ago

We need to free up Bosch systems. They use lots of open source libs, but they close the whole chain (like spare batteries) so that you cannot plug external batteries from other suppliers.

RealityVoid 3d ago

I took a look into the batteries for the ebike systems, they have some sort of AES based pairing and the chips are read protected. You probably can dump the firmware from the update packages for the things. (maybe some hw exploitation stuff as well?) I did a thing where I put their battery controller on an after market battery with a divisor and it started and paired, but for some reason blew up afterwards. I now realize it would be easier to write the whole thing wholesale, but.. uhh, it's no small feat, and I have a job soooo... Bosch should open their shit, it might save them, because it seems the chinese with Avinox will eat their dinner in a couple of years. They seem to be pretty litigious, they went after a forum that documented initiatives to reverse (well, they also hosted pirated diagnostics sw but.. yeah)

surajrmal 3d ago

Having been on the flip side of this divide in the past, there really are a lot of potential safety and reliability problems when using random third party versions of components. While I'm sure there are strong financial incentives to constrain supply, there are also some other strong reasons as well. Also it's very expensive to actually make an ecosystem compared to a close one. The best way to incentivize manufacturers to do it is by creating a competing product that is open and having that differentiating feature drive sales away. That's generally the approach that works best.

stymaar 3d ago
> there really are a lot of potential safety and reliability problems when using random third party versions of components. What are you talking about? If a seller sells you random junk that causes safety issue, they are liable of the damage like the OEM would if their product was bad. Then, if the seller is in a jurisdiction where you can't hope to sue, then it's either your problem for picking this random seller on their website, or we should make it Amazon's problem to feature this kind of sellers in the first place. Surely the biggest retailer on the planet could afford vetting businesses selling on its platform to protect consumers' safety. In any case, the fact that Bosch's ecosystem is closed offers no additional protection whatsoever, as shady sellers already sell counterfeit components (that may or may not work at all).
- tverbeure 3d ago
  The closed system doesn’t (only) prevent counterfeit systems, it also prevents someone from maliciously releasing a mod that could make the motor accelerate instead of break at some random time. It’d be negligent for anyone to release a product like this without locking down the FW.
- Aurornis 3d ago
  > What are you talking about? > If a seller sells you random junk that causes safety issue, they are liable of the damage like the OEM would if their product was bad. No, the GP comment is right. I’ve worked on products where a lot of users did mods and used third party accessories. Customers don’t care who, how, or why their product broke. They want to make noise and try to get a warranty fix for it. Customers would try to mod their devices, break it in the process, and then spend weeks trying to drag us on social media until we relented and shipped them a new one for free. They’re not going to be pursuing damages against the Aliexpress vendor who sold them a flawed battery pack, nor the Amazon seller called WOBALUBAFY that has already disappeared, nor the YouTuber who hastily showed them how to solder some things together. They always try to hide the evidence and claim the product failed by itself because the big American company has the deep pockets and the ability to send them free stuff to avoid bad PR.

amelius 3d ago

Like Apple who used BSD but then closed the whole chain?

rfgplk 3d ago

Pretty much anything hardware based is like this. Everything is 100% closed source and bolted down such that inspecting it is outright impossible without extensive reverse engineering.

hn_submit 3d ago
I believe one of the feasibilities we have with electric locomotion is the standardization of components: electric motors, motor controllers, batteries and battery chargers. These being interchangeable will lead to lower costs through competition and more innovation. It's disappointing that manufacturers are moving the other way to enable vendor lock-in. But only one manufacturer has to jump the fence and the others will be left behind.
- awakeasleep 3d ago
  I’m suspicious of this vision because for example, with battery packs, cells with compatible voltage and size have vastly different characteristics. Those characteristics, like safe discharge rate, capacity, projected cycle count, are all things that manufactures exaggerate or get wrong. I don’t think there’s any way that consumers can ever be informed enough to have an efficient market in products such as those