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A subscription for the right to repair your own machine seems completely insane to me. How is this a thing that is allowed?

werdnapk 4d ago
A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay. Tesla for example lets you pay to access their diagnostic software, so why is John Deere the bad guy here?
- jchw 4d ago
  Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys. And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.
  - arrowsmith 4d ago
    If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business. Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.
    - phyzix5761 4d ago
      Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.
      - Eisenstein 4d ago
        So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.
      - dreamcompiler 4d ago
        I call bullshit until you cite evidence. Farm equipment doesn't even need to comply with road vehicle requirements. What special regulations does a farm equipment manufacturer need to comply with that don't apply to any other industrial manufacturer?
        phyzix5761 4d ago
        $50,100 per employee in regulatory safety and compliance costs.[0] Up to $8k per engine unit produced in EPA regulatory fees.[1] Between $100k and $500k per engine model variant for EPA testing and General Compliance.[2] $100k to $200k for Transient & Steady-State Dynamometer Testing.[2] $150k per engine variant for Useful Life Deterioration Testing.[2] [0] https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers-about-50000-per-employee/ https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers... [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U/part-1039 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U... [2] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-heavy-equipment-compression https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin...
        laughing_man 4d ago
        That's normal stuff for anyone producing a vehicle, isn't it?
      - skeeter2020 4d ago
        This is just not true - their machines are purposely opaque and loaded with DRM. Regulation in this area could potentially make the entire system more efficient and cheaper for everyone at the cost of JD's predatory practices. In addition to owners there are lots of independents who could work on JD equipment, but they are all literally locked out.
        deleted 4d ago
        [deleted]
        samudrijan 4d ago
        It depends on who writes the regulations. Today money writes the regs and people pay the price. Take money out of politics. But all three branches are captured. Anything that resembles returning power to the people is derided as socialism. So the result is power over the people.
      - pvab3 4d ago
        the cost of starting a company that makes a line of tractors combines and sprayers is probably second only to an aircraft manufacturer in difficulty and complexity
        taylorfinley 4d ago
        I think China has this all sorted, we should just have a free market without tarrifs. Let the market provide us the best, un-enshittified products we can find. I am old enough to remember when that was a conservative position.
        pocksuppet 4d ago
        The conservative position is always whatever benefits conservatives at this moment. Back when they supported a free market, a freer market benefitted them. When market regulations benefitted them, they supported a more regulated market.
        sire-vc 4d ago
        Supporting whatever benefits you is called a 'political position', not a conservative one.
        pocksuppet 3d ago
        It's conservatives. Leftists are often found supporting things that hurt them, and liberals usually don't support anything at all.
      - jawilson2 4d ago
        Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Good regulation: right to repair, manufacturers must supply manuals. Bad regulation: JD bribed senators to write regulations that make it insurmountably difficult for new players to enter. Calling regulation bad because corruption is baked into the US Constitution makes it really hard to get anything done.
        cucumber3732842 4d ago
        >Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Every regulation looks good or at least defensible in abstract, especially when some peddler is trying to sell it and the consequences aren't obvious yet.
      - mindslight 4d ago
        Given how each tractor manufacturer is essentially associated with its own specific country, I'd say this industry is a great example of how mature industries tend to consolidate into monopolies while getting propped up by regulatory capture greased by concerns over natural security. So while the regulatory costs you cite may indeed be onerous, simplistic calls merely for "less regulation" don't bear out.
      - snypher 3d ago
        I can start building tractors tomorrow, what regulatory entry cost are you talking about?
- RobotToaster 4d ago
  Real life isn't as simple as the one in fairy tales, there's usually more than one villain.
- voxl 4d ago
  Whataboutism. Two evils are still evil.
- nvme0n1p1 4d ago
  When I bought my current car, it came with an owners manual--for free!! I can grab any data I want from the OBD port. The hardware was cheap, the software to use it is, again, free. I'm not excited about this brave new world where you have to pay a subscription fee to plug a cable into a device you own and interact with it, and even less excited there are people here defending the idea.
  - loopies 4d ago
    What you want is the service manual. Owner manual should be implicit. OBD port can work for some cars, for some of the data. But other cars do have specialized gear they require to either access either reset some stuff in some of the car's computers.
    - somehnguy 4d ago
      Yeah the owners and service manuals are two very very different things. You won't be performing much maintenance with the owners manual besides the absolute basics, like checking your oil. The cheap OBD2 readers lack the vast majority of data and tools you would want to use for service as well. There are aftermarket options but most manufacturers want you to subscribe to their service tools - often charged per monthly plus an additional a fee per VIN it touches. These cost in the hundreds to thousands. It can be pretty frustrating as a shadetree mechanic.
      - lazide 4d ago
        Notably, some vehicles like the Toyota Highlander you can’t even figure out when you need to change the spark plugs, let alone what kind of spark plugs you need from the owners manual. Theoretically, they are to be replaced at 120k miles (!!) but they won’t even tell you that in the owners manual. Insane.
        somehnguy 4d ago
        It is, yeah. The owners manual for my current vehicle seems to mostly contain walkthroughs about the infotainment and other tech features. The section related to maintenance is tiny in comparison. You're probably aware of this already but luckily a lot of service manuals can be found online in PDF form. Somewhat related but I was going through an older relatives belongings not too long ago to help cleanup and found a bunch of old manuals for various household things. The detail included in them was beautiful to see - full wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, etc.
- DuncanCoffee 4d ago
  Because in agriculture you are absolutely expecting to be able to repair stuff yourself. I work on a project related to it and was absolutely surprised at how the company gave instructions to the clients to help them fix their machines (stuff I wouldn't be able to do myself). Having a non-working machine can mean big $$ lost everyday.
- geoduck14 4d ago
  Like others have said: Tesla is the bath guy here. I'm pretty sure most people are focused on the other ways Tesla has been fing around that they just haven't gotten this far down the list. Also, there's something special about tractors. Their owners (farmers) are both willing and capable of repairing tractors, in general, so John Deere is demonized for taking that ability away. Where as Tesla's owners are comfortable not changing their own oil, so "less" was taken away. (Yes, I know Tesla doesn't have engine oil, don't get hung up on that)
  - skeeter2020 4d ago
    A tractor - and all farm equipment - is ridiculously expensive, the core platform is not much different from previous generations and they are used by a respected segment of our society to grow us food. All of this adds up to make JD's impact large and feel much worse than the relative nitpicks we have with many car manufacturers.
- mplewis 4d ago
  Tesla is the bad guy too.
- laughing_man 4d ago
  This is actually pretty widespread on newer models. There are cars for which you need a subscription costing thousands of dollars every year to put your parking brake into "maintenance mode", without which you can't fix your own brakes.
stackghost 4d ago
Well you see, requiring companies to let farmers fix their own tractors is Socialism. And the USSR had "socialist" in the name, so Socialism bad. In the big, beautiful Land of the Free(tm) they don't do Socialism because that's commie shit. The American Way is to let corporations fuck you over in any way that increases profits. Sure, they have the least efficient healthcare system in the world, ineffectual public education, massive wealth disparity, crumbling national infrastructure, and a different school shooting every week. But at least they're not socialists.
- deleted 4d ago
  [deleted]
- monocularvision 4d ago
  Never has a man of straw been so completely eviscerated. An absolute massacre. Bravo.
- adamisom 4d ago
  not sure what's socialist about it. farming is a weird sector though (and a small one; crucial, of course) >the least efficient healthcare system in the world and the most advanced healthcare >ineffectual public education actually it's better than most rich countries after controlling for race/ethnicity that said, healthcare, education, and most of all housing are massively far from free markets, they're the most regulated parts and it's hard to innovate. the more free you make those markets, the better they'll get. >massive wealth disparity because, and this is no exaggeration, we are way fucking wealthier than almost anything except oil-rich Norway and tiny Luxembourg. it's a lot easier to have disparity when some grasses grow tall. >crumbling national infrastructure depends; California and New York yes, Texas no >and a different school shooting every week not that often but this is an american pathology yeah
  - defrost 4d ago
    > and the most advanced healthcare (ignoring Australia and other countries having longer life expectancies and better cancer recovery rates, sure) > not that often It's telling you have to downplay this at all. > depends; California and New York yes, Texas no and the more than 40 other states? See the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Infrastructure Report Card (spoiler, it's a C)
itake 4d ago
Maybe I’m understanding wrong, but imho this doesn’t feel too different from apple care. I pay a monthly fee for the right to pay Apple more money to repair my phone. I know some repairs are included/free, but still…
- notpushkin 3d ago
  You pay Apple more money so that they repair your phone. You don’t pay them so that you can repair it.

werdnapk 4d ago

A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay. Tesla for example lets you pay to access their diagnostic software, so why is John Deere the bad guy here?

jchw 4d ago
Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys. And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.
- arrowsmith 4d ago
  If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business. Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.
  - phyzix5761 4d ago
    Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.
    - Eisenstein 4d ago
      So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.
    - dreamcompiler 4d ago
      I call bullshit until you cite evidence. Farm equipment doesn't even need to comply with road vehicle requirements. What special regulations does a farm equipment manufacturer need to comply with that don't apply to any other industrial manufacturer?
      - phyzix5761 4d ago
        $50,100 per employee in regulatory safety and compliance costs.[0] Up to $8k per engine unit produced in EPA regulatory fees.[1] Between $100k and $500k per engine model variant for EPA testing and General Compliance.[2] $100k to $200k for Transient & Steady-State Dynamometer Testing.[2] $150k per engine variant for Useful Life Deterioration Testing.[2] [0] https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers-about-50000-per-employee/ https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers... [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U/part-1039 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U... [2] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-heavy-equipment-compression https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin...
        laughing_man 4d ago
        That's normal stuff for anyone producing a vehicle, isn't it?
    - skeeter2020 4d ago
      This is just not true - their machines are purposely opaque and loaded with DRM. Regulation in this area could potentially make the entire system more efficient and cheaper for everyone at the cost of JD's predatory practices. In addition to owners there are lots of independents who could work on JD equipment, but they are all literally locked out.
      - deleted 4d ago
        [deleted]
      - samudrijan 4d ago
        It depends on who writes the regulations. Today money writes the regs and people pay the price. Take money out of politics. But all three branches are captured. Anything that resembles returning power to the people is derided as socialism. So the result is power over the people.
    - pvab3 4d ago
      the cost of starting a company that makes a line of tractors combines and sprayers is probably second only to an aircraft manufacturer in difficulty and complexity
      - taylorfinley 4d ago
        I think China has this all sorted, we should just have a free market without tarrifs. Let the market provide us the best, un-enshittified products we can find. I am old enough to remember when that was a conservative position.
        pocksuppet 4d ago
        The conservative position is always whatever benefits conservatives at this moment. Back when they supported a free market, a freer market benefitted them. When market regulations benefitted them, they supported a more regulated market.
        sire-vc 4d ago
        Supporting whatever benefits you is called a 'political position', not a conservative one.
        pocksuppet 3d ago
        It's conservatives. Leftists are often found supporting things that hurt them, and liberals usually don't support anything at all.
    - jawilson2 4d ago
      Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Good regulation: right to repair, manufacturers must supply manuals. Bad regulation: JD bribed senators to write regulations that make it insurmountably difficult for new players to enter. Calling regulation bad because corruption is baked into the US Constitution makes it really hard to get anything done.
      - cucumber3732842 4d ago
        >Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Every regulation looks good or at least defensible in abstract, especially when some peddler is trying to sell it and the consequences aren't obvious yet.
    - mindslight 4d ago
      Given how each tractor manufacturer is essentially associated with its own specific country, I'd say this industry is a great example of how mature industries tend to consolidate into monopolies while getting propped up by regulatory capture greased by concerns over natural security. So while the regulatory costs you cite may indeed be onerous, simplistic calls merely for "less regulation" don't bear out.
    - snypher 3d ago
      I can start building tractors tomorrow, what regulatory entry cost are you talking about?
RobotToaster 4d ago
Real life isn't as simple as the one in fairy tales, there's usually more than one villain.
voxl 4d ago
Whataboutism. Two evils are still evil.
nvme0n1p1 4d ago
When I bought my current car, it came with an owners manual--for free!! I can grab any data I want from the OBD port. The hardware was cheap, the software to use it is, again, free. I'm not excited about this brave new world where you have to pay a subscription fee to plug a cable into a device you own and interact with it, and even less excited there are people here defending the idea.
- loopies 4d ago
  What you want is the service manual. Owner manual should be implicit. OBD port can work for some cars, for some of the data. But other cars do have specialized gear they require to either access either reset some stuff in some of the car's computers.
  - somehnguy 4d ago
    Yeah the owners and service manuals are two very very different things. You won't be performing much maintenance with the owners manual besides the absolute basics, like checking your oil. The cheap OBD2 readers lack the vast majority of data and tools you would want to use for service as well. There are aftermarket options but most manufacturers want you to subscribe to their service tools - often charged per monthly plus an additional a fee per VIN it touches. These cost in the hundreds to thousands. It can be pretty frustrating as a shadetree mechanic.
    - lazide 4d ago
      Notably, some vehicles like the Toyota Highlander you can’t even figure out when you need to change the spark plugs, let alone what kind of spark plugs you need from the owners manual. Theoretically, they are to be replaced at 120k miles (!!) but they won’t even tell you that in the owners manual. Insane.
      - somehnguy 4d ago
        It is, yeah. The owners manual for my current vehicle seems to mostly contain walkthroughs about the infotainment and other tech features. The section related to maintenance is tiny in comparison. You're probably aware of this already but luckily a lot of service manuals can be found online in PDF form. Somewhat related but I was going through an older relatives belongings not too long ago to help cleanup and found a bunch of old manuals for various household things. The detail included in them was beautiful to see - full wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, etc.
DuncanCoffee 4d ago
Because in agriculture you are absolutely expecting to be able to repair stuff yourself. I work on a project related to it and was absolutely surprised at how the company gave instructions to the clients to help them fix their machines (stuff I wouldn't be able to do myself). Having a non-working machine can mean big $$ lost everyday.
geoduck14 4d ago
Like others have said: Tesla is the bath guy here. I'm pretty sure most people are focused on the other ways Tesla has been fing around that they just haven't gotten this far down the list. Also, there's something special about tractors. Their owners (farmers) are both willing and capable of repairing tractors, in general, so John Deere is demonized for taking that ability away. Where as Tesla's owners are comfortable not changing their own oil, so "less" was taken away. (Yes, I know Tesla doesn't have engine oil, don't get hung up on that)
- skeeter2020 4d ago
  A tractor - and all farm equipment - is ridiculously expensive, the core platform is not much different from previous generations and they are used by a respected segment of our society to grow us food. All of this adds up to make JD's impact large and feel much worse than the relative nitpicks we have with many car manufacturers.
mplewis 4d ago
Tesla is the bad guy too.
laughing_man 4d ago
This is actually pretty widespread on newer models. There are cars for which you need a subscription costing thousands of dollars every year to put your parking brake into "maintenance mode", without which you can't fix your own brakes.

stackghost 4d ago

Well you see, requiring companies to let farmers fix their own tractors is Socialism. And the USSR had "socialist" in the name, so Socialism bad. In the big, beautiful Land of the Free(tm) they don't do Socialism because that's commie shit. The American Way is to let corporations fuck you over in any way that increases profits. Sure, they have the least efficient healthcare system in the world, ineffectual public education, massive wealth disparity, crumbling national infrastructure, and a different school shooting every week. But at least they're not socialists.

deleted 4d ago
[deleted]
monocularvision 4d ago
Never has a man of straw been so completely eviscerated. An absolute massacre. Bravo.
adamisom 4d ago
not sure what's socialist about it. farming is a weird sector though (and a small one; crucial, of course) >the least efficient healthcare system in the world and the most advanced healthcare >ineffectual public education actually it's better than most rich countries after controlling for race/ethnicity that said, healthcare, education, and most of all housing are massively far from free markets, they're the most regulated parts and it's hard to innovate. the more free you make those markets, the better they'll get. >massive wealth disparity because, and this is no exaggeration, we are way fucking wealthier than almost anything except oil-rich Norway and tiny Luxembourg. it's a lot easier to have disparity when some grasses grow tall. >crumbling national infrastructure depends; California and New York yes, Texas no >and a different school shooting every week not that often but this is an american pathology yeah
- defrost 4d ago
  > and the most advanced healthcare (ignoring Australia and other countries having longer life expectancies and better cancer recovery rates, sure) > not that often It's telling you have to downplay this at all. > depends; California and New York yes, Texas no and the more than 40 other states? See the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Infrastructure Report Card (spoiler, it's a C)

itake 4d ago

Maybe I’m understanding wrong, but imho this doesn’t feel too different from apple care. I pay a monthly fee for the right to pay Apple more money to repair my phone. I know some repairs are included/free, but still…

notpushkin 3d ago
You pay Apple more money so that they repair your phone. You don’t pay them so that you can repair it.