6 ms·

Nah, you're not crazy. I'm also someone who actually reads terms documents, because I find that they're often the only thing that will be truthful about a compa

by Sophira 10d ago

Nah, you're not crazy. I'm also someone who actually reads terms documents, because I find that they're often the only thing that will be truthful about a company's intentions. And keeping it completely disconnected from the internet should be the default, in my opinion.

snvzz 10d ago
Only good until the device starts using a neighbor's LG TV as access point, without telling you, for the sole purpose of upgrading itself and sending this "telemetry".
- recurseP 10d ago
  Really?
  - otikik 9d ago
    Well that is how Airtags work. Any iphone/ipad/mac nearby will act as a router for them[1] Given that we have already established that LG is a shady company, I wouldn't put it beyond them to try to use the same trick. [1]https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work
    - antonkochubey 9d ago
      It's also how Amazon Sidewalk works for many Alexa-enabled devices
      - wolvoleo 9d ago
        Yeah and my worry is, TVs like this can use sidewalk to connect to when they are not provided with internet access by the user (either but plugging into ethernet or connecting WiFi). Leaving the TV with an always-available exfiltration channel for it's espionage of the user's viewing habits. This is a really bad thing for those of us who until now have just not connected our 'smart' shit to the internet. Where I live in the EU they don't do sidewalk otherwise I'd have to look at ways to fight it (disassociate connections or DDoS the devices providing sidewalk routing)
    - brookst 9d ago
      That is not how AirTags work. They do not reach out to Apple servers at all. AirTags broadcast an encrypted ID. Phones build lists of ID’s they’ve seen and send the list to Apple. There is no routing, no ability to send arbitrary data, no active communication of any sort. It’s not a mesh network. The link you posted makes that pretty clear.
      - lazide 9d ago
        uh, that is just all the iphones acting as a mesh network for airtag ID’s? it means you can’t block the tracking by doing anything yourself - you’d also need to block everyone else’s devices too.
        brookst 9d ago
        Mesh network typically means… a network. Unidirectional, best-effort, randomized IDs are not a network. And of course you can block the tracking yourself, even though nobody is actually tracking because Apple can’t tell who owns what ID. Just turn off find my on your device.
        lazide 8d ago
        They definitely meet the definition for a network. there is no requirement for determinism, bi-directional communication, etc. at least in the definitions I see for the word. and turning it off on your device doesn’t actually block the info being communicated, merely the association where you can see it. and hopefully on their backend, but there is no technical requirement for it. the whole point is everyone’s iphones forward airtag info for every airtag.
        brookst 8d ago
        Fair point on the forwarding being non-disable-able. But I don’t see any privacy issue there. The forwarder provides observed obfuscated ID and location, which seems less fraught than even the signal strength metadata returned to cell towers. I had misinterpreted “you can’t block the tracking” to mean of your own phone, rather than of devices that other people want tracked.
    - silon42 9d ago
      Forget GPS jammers, everyone needs a bluetooth jammer.
- ButlerianJihad 10d ago
  Zealous Autoconfig https://m.xkcd.com/416/ https://m.xkcd.com/416/
  - LoganDark 9d ago
    Non-mobile link: https://xkcd.com/416 https://xkcd.com/416
imglorp 9d ago
There is absolutely no reason to read those contracts any more. As Louis Rossman keeps pointing out, most of them now include the ability for them to change terms at any time. That's basically the null contract. Since the legal system has once again failed to protect users from corporations, it's up to users to use technical means for self defense.
- airstrike 9d ago
  Interestingly, in Brazil and I'm sure in some other legislations, those contracts are essentially void because there's a presumption the average person does not have the time, patience, or ability to understand every clause—so they are by definition unable to agree to their terms. I'd love to have a similar standard applied in the US but I'm not holding my breath.
- DaSHacka 9d ago
  At the very least, you can be sure they'll never change the terms of the agreement to be more beneficial for you, though. So just treat it as a best case scenario, knowing that it can get even worse.
  - pnt12 9d ago
    Just assume the worse then, save yourself some time.
    - DaSHacka 9d ago
      Well yeah, that's kinda the idea, but sometimes it's nice to know what 'the worst' will entail
  - georgemcbay 9d ago
    At this point every EULA or TOS change should begin with the heading: We Are Altering The Deal. Pray We Don't Alter It Any Further
- imglorp 9d ago
  PS, my technical means are keeping my TV off the internet.
skerit 9d ago
I never understood why any of the smartness had to be built into the TV in the first place. Sure, it's useful for the first year, and then the seriously underpowered hardware they installed into it will have trouble with just about anything. I bought a Philips Ambilight OLED TV probably over 8 years now. Brilliant tv, great quality, I still see no reason to replace it at all. But its built in AndroidTV is garbage.
- unrented7977 9d ago
  It's so you buy a new one every few years instead of keeping the same TV for a decade or two. Capitalism cannot survive when products last a lifetime.
  - MarkusQ 9d ago
    > Capitalism cannot survive when products last a lifetime. This is totally backwards; capitalism would do fine in such an environment (in the same way that evolution does fine in an environment where organisms live more than just a few seconds; the whole reason we have the notion of a "lifetime" is that our germ line comes from a long line of ancestral DNA that made organisms that outlasted their competition.) Individual companies might have to hustle to innovate or die, but that too is good for capitalism.
    - MarkusQ 9d ago
      Whoa! I think maybe I stepped on somebody's agenda? Both capitalism and evolution depend on the fact that over time, on average, less fit organisms/organizations are displaced by better alternatives. You may not like that, but down-voting anyone who points it out doesn't make it any less true.
  - drdeca 9d ago
    If that’s true, then why is capitalism still around? Should it have died out in a previous generation in which many products did last a lifetime?
II2II 9d ago
> I find that they're often the only thing that will be truthful about a company's intentions. Really? Many years ago, I had to physically sign a license with Microsoft to obtain some software. The license was not consistent with the license included with the software. Both licenses effectively said they were the real license and that any other agreement you made with Microsoft was not valid. I don't think there was any nefarious intent. It was likely to avoid a situation where Microsoft employees offered terms that were not approved of by the company. Still, it goes to show that it can be awfully difficult to judge the intent of a company.
- mitxela 9d ago
  I guess neither is valid then, you got the software for free.

by Sophira 10d ago

snvzz 10d ago

Only good until the device starts using a neighbor's LG TV as access point, without telling you, for the sole purpose of upgrading itself and sending this "telemetry".

recurseP 10d ago
Really?
- otikik 9d ago
  Well that is how Airtags work. Any iphone/ipad/mac nearby will act as a router for them[1] Given that we have already established that LG is a shady company, I wouldn't put it beyond them to try to use the same trick. [1]https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work
  - antonkochubey 9d ago
    It's also how Amazon Sidewalk works for many Alexa-enabled devices
    - wolvoleo 9d ago
      Yeah and my worry is, TVs like this can use sidewalk to connect to when they are not provided with internet access by the user (either but plugging into ethernet or connecting WiFi). Leaving the TV with an always-available exfiltration channel for it's espionage of the user's viewing habits. This is a really bad thing for those of us who until now have just not connected our 'smart' shit to the internet. Where I live in the EU they don't do sidewalk otherwise I'd have to look at ways to fight it (disassociate connections or DDoS the devices providing sidewalk routing)
  - brookst 9d ago
    That is not how AirTags work. They do not reach out to Apple servers at all. AirTags broadcast an encrypted ID. Phones build lists of ID’s they’ve seen and send the list to Apple. There is no routing, no ability to send arbitrary data, no active communication of any sort. It’s not a mesh network. The link you posted makes that pretty clear.
    - lazide 9d ago
      uh, that is just all the iphones acting as a mesh network for airtag ID’s? it means you can’t block the tracking by doing anything yourself - you’d also need to block everyone else’s devices too.
      - brookst 9d ago
        Mesh network typically means… a network. Unidirectional, best-effort, randomized IDs are not a network. And of course you can block the tracking yourself, even though nobody is actually tracking because Apple can’t tell who owns what ID. Just turn off find my on your device.
        lazide 8d ago
        They definitely meet the definition for a network. there is no requirement for determinism, bi-directional communication, etc. at least in the definitions I see for the word. and turning it off on your device doesn’t actually block the info being communicated, merely the association where you can see it. and hopefully on their backend, but there is no technical requirement for it. the whole point is everyone’s iphones forward airtag info for every airtag.
        brookst 8d ago
        Fair point on the forwarding being non-disable-able. But I don’t see any privacy issue there. The forwarder provides observed obfuscated ID and location, which seems less fraught than even the signal strength metadata returned to cell towers. I had misinterpreted “you can’t block the tracking” to mean of your own phone, rather than of devices that other people want tracked.
  - silon42 9d ago
    Forget GPS jammers, everyone needs a bluetooth jammer.
ButlerianJihad 10d ago
Zealous Autoconfig https://m.xkcd.com/416/ https://m.xkcd.com/416/
- LoganDark 9d ago
  Non-mobile link: https://xkcd.com/416 https://xkcd.com/416

imglorp 9d ago

There is absolutely no reason to read those contracts any more. As Louis Rossman keeps pointing out, most of them now include the ability for them to change terms at any time. That's basically the null contract. Since the legal system has once again failed to protect users from corporations, it's up to users to use technical means for self defense.

airstrike 9d ago
Interestingly, in Brazil and I'm sure in some other legislations, those contracts are essentially void because there's a presumption the average person does not have the time, patience, or ability to understand every clause—so they are by definition unable to agree to their terms. I'd love to have a similar standard applied in the US but I'm not holding my breath.
DaSHacka 9d ago
At the very least, you can be sure they'll never change the terms of the agreement to be more beneficial for you, though. So just treat it as a best case scenario, knowing that it can get even worse.
- pnt12 9d ago
  Just assume the worse then, save yourself some time.
  - DaSHacka 9d ago
    Well yeah, that's kinda the idea, but sometimes it's nice to know what 'the worst' will entail
- georgemcbay 9d ago
  At this point every EULA or TOS change should begin with the heading: We Are Altering The Deal. Pray We Don't Alter It Any Further
imglorp 9d ago
PS, my technical means are keeping my TV off the internet.

skerit 9d ago

I never understood why any of the smartness had to be built into the TV in the first place. Sure, it's useful for the first year, and then the seriously underpowered hardware they installed into it will have trouble with just about anything. I bought a Philips Ambilight OLED TV probably over 8 years now. Brilliant tv, great quality, I still see no reason to replace it at all. But its built in AndroidTV is garbage.

unrented7977 9d ago
It's so you buy a new one every few years instead of keeping the same TV for a decade or two. Capitalism cannot survive when products last a lifetime.
- MarkusQ 9d ago
  > Capitalism cannot survive when products last a lifetime. This is totally backwards; capitalism would do fine in such an environment (in the same way that evolution does fine in an environment where organisms live more than just a few seconds; the whole reason we have the notion of a "lifetime" is that our germ line comes from a long line of ancestral DNA that made organisms that outlasted their competition.) Individual companies might have to hustle to innovate or die, but that too is good for capitalism.
  - MarkusQ 9d ago
    Whoa! I think maybe I stepped on somebody's agenda? Both capitalism and evolution depend on the fact that over time, on average, less fit organisms/organizations are displaced by better alternatives. You may not like that, but down-voting anyone who points it out doesn't make it any less true.
- drdeca 9d ago
  If that’s true, then why is capitalism still around? Should it have died out in a previous generation in which many products did last a lifetime?

II2II 9d ago

> I find that they're often the only thing that will be truthful about a company's intentions. Really? Many years ago, I had to physically sign a license with Microsoft to obtain some software. The license was not consistent with the license included with the software. Both licenses effectively said they were the real license and that any other agreement you made with Microsoft was not valid. I don't think there was any nefarious intent. It was likely to avoid a situation where Microsoft employees offered terms that were not approved of by the company. Still, it goes to show that it can be awfully difficult to judge the intent of a company.

mitxela 9d ago
I guess neither is valid then, you got the software for free.